e) Finrod Felagund
Here's how the conversation went:
(06:03:05) floyd_n_milan: how would you account for one being 'wise' in Tolkien's works?
(06:04:14) Miruvor: understanding of the bigger picture behind events, and able to understand what is necessary and what is not.
(06:04:50) floyd_n_milan: so let's put it in the context of that poll
(06:05:23) floyd_n_milan: Gandalf was wise because he matches your criterion
(06:06:38) floyd_n_milan: ok Galadriel
(06:06:47) floyd_n_milan: what has she done to make her wise?
(06:07:30) Miruvor: well the Sil does not make her very wise at all, but considering the whole Doom of Mandos and unrest of the Noldor..
(06:07:35) floyd_n_milan: indeed
(06:07:46) floyd_n_milan: she'd probably be considered stupid and rash
(06:07:45) Miruvor: yet in the Third Age, she assembles the White Council
(06:07:50) floyd_n_milan: hmmm
(06:08:15) Miruvor: and her ultimate act of wisdom is rejecting the Ring, though Elrond does that without speeching and showing off.
(06:08:35) floyd_n_milan: i think that was more self control than wisdom
(06:08:40) floyd_n_milan: rather
(06:08:51) floyd_n_milan: knowing what she knew about the rings
(06:08:55) floyd_n_milan: and their powers
(06:09:10) floyd_n_milan: it's a given that she must reject the ring
(06:09:19) floyd_n_milan: i see no wise act in it
(06:09:25) floyd_n_milan: just an act of extreme self control
(06:09:38) floyd_n_milan: and it'd the stupidest thing for her to accept the ring
(06:09:54) floyd_n_milan: now
(06:10:10) floyd_n_milan: if it were someone who didn't exactly know what accepting the ring would lead to
(06:10:32) floyd_n_milan: if such a person actually thought about it and decided that it would do him bad and then rejected the ring, it'd be wise, i think
(06:10:58) floyd_n_milan: btw was Galadriel alone responsible for the White Council?
(06:11:05) floyd_n_milan: how much part did Gandalf play?
(06:11:14) floyd_n_milan: apart from being a member?
(06:11:38) Miruvor: Saruman was the Chief of the council, that's all i know
(06:11:43) Miruvor: Gandalf was prolly 2nd in rank
(06:11:48) floyd_n_milan: i think so too
(06:12:50) Miruvor: then, why would Finrod be wise?
(06:12:52) Miruvor: he was merely noble.
(06:12:57) floyd_n_milan: indeed
(06:13:00) floyd_n_milan: i wondered the same
(06:13:23) Miruvor: he was prolly the only one who didn't fall under the 'spell', 'as to speak.
(06:14:43) floyd_n_milan: what about Finarfin?
(06:15:04) Miruvor: he rejected to join the Exile.
(06:15:12) floyd_n_milan: ah yes
(06:15:34) floyd_n_milan: i don't remember what Finrod did
(06:15:46) floyd_n_milan: he was the first to meet men right?
(06:16:56) Miruvor: yeh
(06:17:12) floyd_n_milan: so i guess that was a wise thing to do, befriending men
(06:18:32) Miruvor: he did it more because he was noble, i think.
this point could be argued upon, its not really clear what went on in his mind, is it?
(06:20:12) floyd_n_milan: Melian's wise things?
(06:20:38) floyd_n_milan: predicting the doom because of the Silmaril?
(06:21:12) floyd_n_milan: or her use of her powers for the defence of her kingdom?
(06:21:38) floyd_n_milan: again, i think, it would have been plain stupid not to use her powers that way
(06:21:45) Miruvor: she's a Maia for something
(06:21:55) Miruvor: you can't compare maiar with elves or men
(06:22:06) floyd_n_milan: exactly what i was wondering
(06:22:17) floyd_n_milan: so the only one left is Elrond
(06:23:08) Miruvor: well he did know what was going on very well..
(06:23:15) Miruvor: aka the Council of Elrond.
(06:23:19) floyd_n_milan: yup
(06:23:44) floyd_n_milan: i guess he was knowledgeable too?
(06:25:03) Miruvor: yeh, he picked up a few things along the way..
(06:25:38) floyd_n_milan: hmmm would knowledge and wisdom go hand in hand?
(06:25:48) floyd_n_milan: not always i guess
(06:25:51) Miruvor: wisdom is about interpretation of knowledge
(06:25:57) floyd_n_milan: yeah
(06:25:57) Miruvor: and what you choose to do with knowledge
(06:26:20) Miruvor: it usually comes with experience, and age
(06:26:39) floyd_n_milan: of which Elrond had both a-plenty
(06:31:43) Miruvor: Saruman was very knowledgable, but he sat brooding and studying in his tower most of the time
(06:31:51) Miruvor: that's why he lost the bigger picture.
(06:32:03) Miruvor: same with Sauron.
(06:32:33) Miruvor: both weren't wise enough to understand that one always has to expect the unexpected.
(06:32:39) floyd_n_milan: true
(06:32:44) floyd_n_milan: what about Morgoth?
(06:33:42) floyd_n_milan: he was guided too much by his feelings rather than brain
(06:33:54) floyd_n_milan: so much so that he used his brain in accordance with his feelings
(06:34:36) Miruvor: he was not wise, as he did not understand that he could change the Music in Eru's despite.
(06:34:47) Miruvor: no matter what he would do, everything would be set right.
(06:35:02) Miruvor: all his attempts were fruitless, yet he continued like a cosmic version of Don Quixote.
(06:45:33) floyd_n_milan: hmmm so in general
(06:46:06) floyd_n_milan: Elves were wiser than the others because; on their own, they generally knew what the right thing to do would be?
(06:46:13) floyd_n_milan: but that's not a global truth
(06:46:21) floyd_n_milan: especially in the Silmarillion
(06:46:55) Miruvor: because they live longer, + Elves are described as having a tad of the spirit of the Ainur in them.
(06:47:14) floyd_n_milan: that gives them an unfair advantage
(06:47:28) floyd_n_milan: i find it interesting that no human makes it into that poll
(06:48:02) Miruvor: Faramir or Aragorn could be in it.
(06:48:09) floyd_n_milan: yeah
(06:48:21) floyd_n_milan: maybe even Elendil?
(06:48:57) Miruvor: or Tar-Palantir
(06:49:25) floyd_n_milan: i get confused with the 'Tar's
(06:49:27) floyd_n_milan: which one was he?
(06:49:46) Miruvor: the one that tried to return the old values
About the Galadriel comment of mine, here's exactly what I meant:
You are given a glass of some drink you love, but you know is fatal to you. The natural thing to do is to not drink it. This has more to do with self control than wisdom, I feel. Doing otherwise, however, is extremely stupid. I guess this is a kind of no-win situation, where you don't get the credit for something that you did right but get flamed for something that you did wrong. Those poor referees...
Anyway, the point of posting this, is to hear other members' views. I do hope that we get to hear some.