Thread: The Battle Poll
What an awesome choice.... It is difficult to tease one out from the others. I'd really like to see them all, and as I read through the list I spent a minute on each one trying to visualise it.
I came to a couple of conclusions. Thanks to the miracle of cinemamatics and the efferts of Mr PJ, I have already been able to go part of the way there with some of the ones on the list (don't bite me too hard, Vir )
What I want in life is new experiences. I've partially seen Gandalf vs The Balrog , Siege at Minas Tirith, Helm's Deep (including bonus Elves), Elendil/Gil-Galad vs Sauron, and Gollum vs Frodo.
I want something I haven't seen. The Battle of Five Armies has always been a soft spot for me and stood out for a while; Fingolfin vs Morgoth is my favourite one on one; Tulkas vs Morgoth would probably be a bit like two Sumo's wrestling on a scale model of the earth with some magic thrown in for good measure; Glorfindel vs the Balrog, not much of a fight as Glorfindel flung himself off the cliff taking the Balrog with him.
My choice in the end had to be the Dagor Bragollach for its pure scale. It and the battle of Nirnaeth Arnoediad (actually my personal favourite but not on the list) were probably the largest battles that took place in Middle Earth that did not have the intervention of the Valar.
Thanks to the miracle of cinemamatics and the efferts of Mr PJ, I have already been able to go part of the way there with some of the ones on the list
Are you saying those had anything to do with the battles in the book? Gee, maybe I should watch them again then. Not.
So, how is it Gandalf vs. the Balrog is in the lead, despite no one in ANY of the (now THREE) threads has stuck up for it?
Answer : because Gandalf vs the Balrog (or whatever it was supposed to be) were in the movies. Figures, doesn't it?
Considering the movie influences, it was kinda a surprise that Beren & Lúthien won the lovelies couple poll over Arwen & Aragorn, the watered down version of B & L.
Consider what happened in the U.S Civil War at the end of the 'First Battle of Bull Run' (First Manassus), which the Union troops lost to the Confederates:
Union commander Gen. Irvin McDowell lamented, "The retreat soon became a rout, and this soon degenerated into a panic." Said another Union officer, "No efforts could induce a single regiment to form after the retreat was commenced." The disorganized mob of Yankees ran back toward Washington, sweeping along with them picknicking civilians and members of the U.S. Congress who had come out to watch the battle.
Grep Posted Friday 24th March 2006 (10:20am)
So which of these fights would you like to view from a distance?
Me? Helms deep, but i'd like to see it from the keep - just for the spectacle a small force of men confronted by 10k orcs and uruk hai!
Elessar Lossëhelin Posted Friday 24th March 2006 (12:27pm)
i would love to have seen Helm's Deep as well and see the waves and waves of arrows flying around in the air, plus i would have loved to have fought beside Aragorn Big Smile Smilie, also, the fight lasted a whole night so how many would really be alive by the end??? (compared to the beggining)
MorambarPosted Friday 24th March 2006 (03:43pm)
Which of THESE fights? For me it was a toss up between Fingolgin vs. Morgoth or the Dagor Bragollach, with the latter edging ahead. If I could tolerate the sight, THE battle I'd like to see if the Fall of Gondolin, of which the Battle of the Pelennor is only the faintest echo, if with a radically different outcome. How Gondolin didn't make it into the fray when both the Gandalf vs. Balrog and Glorfindel vs. Balrog confrontations did I haven't a clue. The former seems the heavy favorite at the moment, but Gondolin is always first in my heart, even though totally absent from the poll. ;-p If I can't have that I'll take Dagor Bragollach, with the most doughty Noldorin lord vs. the most powerful Vala a close second.
VirumorPosted Saturday 25th March 2006 (12:48am)
Fingolfin vs Morgoth.
Apart from this : Fëanor vs the Balrogs, just so that a certain discussion with a particularly headstrong member could be solved once and for all... :-P
CloveressPosted Saturday 25th March 2006 (04:23am)
I picked Vee vs. Vir, because all the other battles wouldn't be fun if you were viewing them from a distance. I mean, with all the great battles, I'd like to see the details, but with Vee and Vir, I would vry much like to keep my distance.
MorambarPosted Saturday 25th March 2006 (06:39am)
Wow, I've never seen someone who WANTED to be proven wrong so badly. ;-p So, how is it Gandalf vs. the Balrog has a strong lead, but no one has chimed in supporting it? Movie fanboys have time to quickpoll, but not to justify it? ;-p I mean, Gandalf vs. the Balrog is on top, but Glorfindel vs. the Balrog, from which the former is obviously derived (quick, name two people who died when the Balrog they killed wrapped his whip around their leg and pulled them down the mountain with him that AREN'T Gandalf or Glorfindel) has NO VOTES AT ALL???! Does anyone else think this odd?
That's why I voted Tulkas vs. Morgoth.
Bring on the popcorn!
And besides that, the only thing the FILM version captured for me was that Peter Jackson has no concept of how Medieval warfare worked. Once more, with feeling: when cavalry flank infantry the latter dies quickly and messily; they do NOT turn 180° in a moment to meet the charge. Whole books have been written on infantry turning movements, because a formation of infantry turns on the march, they don't just rotate in place. That and "go home, Sam!" were the two points where I almost got up and left the theater. Citing the film to ME will not help your case, so there. ;-p
That's why, instead, Sauron's army catapulted the heads of their victims over the walls, as a means of psychological, chemical and biological warfare.
Furthermore, Gandalf's life needed not to be saved by Pippin; nor did Pippin need to use tricks in order to light the b(e)acons of Gondor; nor did Gandalf beat up Denethor and stood there watching while Denethor cast himself off the walls, like a fantasy version of the (sub?)Human Torch.
And how is it that Éowyn is able to cut a Mûmak's heels, when not even a regular bullet is able to penetrate the skin of a modern-day elephant? Did she use a welding torch, instead of a sword?
That and "go home, Sam!" were the two points where I almost got up and left the theater.
Well, you gotta hand it to Rolleyes : Sam wás extremely annoying.
When they don't turn it into something it's not....
Yeh, we have a couple of such threads too. Surprisingly though, there are no similar Legolas & Gimli and Gorbag & Shagrat threads.
when cavalry flank infantry the latter dies quickly and messily; they do NOT turn 180° in a moment to meet the charge.
Which is pretty much the way I remember it in the books until the Witch-king shows up to stem the onslaught. But don't get me started; if a sortie was to be launched from sally points at Helms Deep THAT should have been on horseback, too, but I don't recall it that way in the film. Oddly enough I was just rereading Swords of the Horseclans a few days ago, and treated to the question of how useful elephants are in an assault (answer: just fine, until you set the bridge on fire. ;-p) So I guess what I'm saying is, yeah, a hedgehog would have been just fine, except the Orcs in the film weren't in position for it and had neither time nor room to execute the manouvers necessary to form one. They were caught with their pants down, and that should have been that.
Come on, yew tew, stow the surly banter and talk serious.
Though I'm sure they still vote for them when they see a "favourite movie poll" on yahoo or something.
No, it are some of the worst movies I've ever seen. My favourite movies are The Godfather series, Dune and National Lampoon's War on Terror.
Their knowledge of medieval affairs are to rival that of the more relenting and understanding Grondmaster's, and this suggests that maybe their age may also rival the venerable Grondy's.
I am quite knowledged on the subject myself,(I hope it doesn't sound like I'm being boastful) and I'm only 15, so age doesn't have everything to do with it.
At the Battle of Pelennor Plains, when the Rohirrim came over the hill on the horizon(in the movie), they waited at the top for a moment before thundering downhill, giving the Orcs a little time before they hit. That might not have been enough time, but then again, it might have. The only way to know for sure would be to test it. And if any of you know at least five hundred people, and half as many horses, who would be willing to perform the experiment, please tell me the results.(laughing) Only joking.
Well, when the Rohirrim charged, the Orcs were packed tightly together in close formation, and when they crashed together, you see the Riders of Rohan riding through the orcs, mowing them down like grass as they passed through the spread out orcs. The only way that could have happened was if the orcs had formed into a loose formation, which was both impractical and impossible. Impractical because it would have caused major casulties on the orcs part while inflicting very little damage to the Riders as far as numbers goes. Impossible because it would have taken a while for at least a thousand orcs to get spread out, much longer than they had.
And speaking of that Rohirrim scene Fionwe mentioned, it's always surprised me too. I was rather incredulous at how the horses could've just rushed through all the pikes and spears the Orcs were holding at them. But I was too caught up in the climax of the movie, so I didn't really care whether it was practical or not. Too bad you guys couldn't enjoy the movies because of your superior knowledge of military affairs. Really, I could pity you...
Cloveress, I see you still don't know how to do the fancy letters. If you go back into the "Introduce Yourself" thread, look in the one I did, and check my reply.