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I chose 'An enigma' because that is all that Tolkien could come up with after the book had been written. However, I still like to think he might have been the anthropomorphic Iluvatar/God/Eru taking time out from his many duties for a well deserved vacation. You can decide for yourself, no matter that Virumor will again be able to present a strong argument against it. Happy Elf Smilie
Tom Bombadil, simply was, Tom Bombadil. Nothing more, nothing less.
I still go with Maiar, but that's my personal opinion. The Valar were very much non-interventionists after the First Age, and it seems as if Eru was even moreso. The only time I recall Eru taking a direct hand was when the Valar layed down their guardianship at the coming of Ar-Pharazon, so I can't really see him "jus' chllin'" next door to Buckland. But I can't really make any stronger argument against it either, nor for my own. Just my take.
Tom Bombadil cannot be a Maiar or Valar of any kind.

‘Eh, what?’ said Tom sitting up, and his eyes glinting in the gloom. ‘Don’t you know my name yet? That’s the only answer. Tell me, who are you, alone, yourself and nameless? But you are young and I am old. Eldest, that’s what I am. Mark my words, my friends: Tom was here before the river and the trees; Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn. He made paths before the Big People, and saw the little People arriving. He was here before the Kings and the graves and the Barrow-wights. When the Elves passed westward, Tom was here already, before the seas were bent. He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside.’

Tom bombadil was in Arda before the Dark Lord Melkor was and he was the first of the Ainur to descend:

"And in this work the chief part was taken by Manwë and Aulë and Ulmo; but Melkor too was there from the first, and he meddled in all that was done, turning it if he might to his own desires and purposes; and he kindled great fires. When therefore Earth was yet young and full of flame Melkor coveted it, and he said to the other Valar: 'This shall be my own kingdom; and I name it unto myself!'

So there you see that TB cannot be of any Ainur.
I voted for enigma, because that's what JRRT wrote in one of his letters. Furthermore, he wrote that Tom Bombadil does not need philosophizing about : Was Tom Bombadil important ?
"He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside.’"

It's an interesting choice of terms, yes, but all it really means is that he was in Middle-earth before Melkor was released from Angainor, before, in fact, Feanor named him Morgoth. Recall that even as the Edain woke with the first sunrise, the Eldar woke with the first stars, the first sight they beheld and the source of their name. And there were many Maiar running around Middle-earth rather than Valinor at the time, such as, most famously, Melian. Orome also went often to Middle-earth at that time, and IIRC some have even theorized HE was Bombadil. Bottom line: I already knew he names himself Oldest, a name the other denizens of Middle-earth accept, but all of the Ainur date from before Ea, and all those within it, except for Tulkas, have been so from its creation. If anything, it's an argument FOR his being Ainur, or Iluvatar, and of the two, I think the former more likely.
I am afraid I have to disagree Moramber.
What that quote is saying is Tom Bombadil was in Ea before Melkor, first of all the Ainur to descend, not when Melkor was relaesed from Valinor. Note: "Came from outside". This is what this quote is most generally accepted as on most other Tolkien sites such as the Plaza and TF.

If you do not agree I could ellaborate further?
It is probably easier to say what Tom wasn't rather than what he was.

I voted for Enigma for the same reasons as Vir. However, I'd like to think that maybe, just maybe, he was formed from a spark of the Flame Imperishable when Eru was busy creating.
I voted for both as he can be no other, least of all an Ainur.

However there is an alternative. He could have been, along with Ungoliant, Watcher in the water and other nameless entities, created from Melkors discord, woven in with the Music of the Ainur.
Melkors discord might have created abnormalities, unlike what the Second Great theme has when the World is made anew, without Morgoths evil.
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He could have been, along with Ungoliant, Watcher in the water and other nameless entities, created from Melkors discord, woven in with the Music of the Ainur.
Melkors discord might have created abnormalities, unlike what the Second Great theme has when the World is made anew, without Morgoths evil.

This theory has already been discussed here : Strange creatures

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What that quote is saying is Tom Bombadil was in Ea before Melkor, first of all the Ainur to descend, not when Melkor was relaesed from Valinor. Note: "Came from outside". This is what this quote is most generally accepted as on most other Tolkien sites such as the Plaza and TF.

You might want to check all theories about Tom Bombadil here : Was Tom Bombadil important ?
Oh there are many theories, and few can be proved wrong. However the theory that he is an Ainur has been proved wrong above. If you don't beleive that TB meant Melkor coming from the Void just say and then I can try and sway you otherwise.
Hmmm, not a too bad theory, LOA. But I would rather think he was made from the parts Eru added to ballance out Melkor's discord, not from the discord. He is quite the oposite of Melkor; kind, happy, helpful with no desire to posess or control or dominate. Not what I would have added if I was to rebell.. He must be Eru's work, who/what ever he is.

I'll probably end up voting for "an enigma" myself, even if it's not a satisfying answer. Wink Smilie
Yes a good point there. Tom was created when Eru's theme rebelled against Melkors rebelling theme (confusing but correct), whereas Ungoliant was created from melkors theme rebelling against Erus assigned theme.
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I don't think Tom needs philosophizing about, and is not improved by it. But many have found him an odd or indeed discordant ingredient. In historical fact I put him in because I had already 'invented' him independently (he first appeared in the Oxford Magazine)3 and wanted an 'adventure' on the way. But I kept him in, and as he was, because he represents certain things otherwise left out. I do not mean him to be an allegory – or I should not have given him so particular, individual, and ridiculous a name – but 'allegory' is the only mode of exhibiting certain functions: he is then an 'allegory', or an exemplar, a particular embodying of pure (real) natural science: the spirit that desires knowledge of other things, their history and nature, because they are 'other' and wholly independent of the enquiring mind, a spirit coeval with the rational mind, and entirely unconcerned with 'doing' anything with the knowledge: Zoology and Botany not Cattle-breeding or Agriculture .

JRR Tolkien, letter #153

That is the closest one will come to explaining/understanding what Tom Bombadil is, already mentioned in Was Tom Bombadil important ?.
I voted for Enigma, and i am not disputing he was one. All I am saying is that above my quotes shows he could not have been an Ainur.
Melkor indeed was the first Ainu who descended into Arda from the Timeless Halls.

Though Tom Bomdadil must've undoubtedly originated from Eru's mind too, though I would not call him an Ainu, as he seems to be beyond that; Tom Bombadil is only confined to his own realm and never had any any part in the strife between good & evil.

My theory is that Tom Bombadil is the 'projection' of Eru in Arda, or at least a being placed there by Eru himself; as soon as Eru called out "Eä!" and created the primordial Arda, Tom was already there before the Valar started their labours :
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'Eh, what?' said Tom sitting up, and his eyes glinting in the gloom. 'Don't you know my name yet? That's the only answer. Tell me, who are you, alone, yourself and nameless? But you are young and I am old. Eldest, that's what I am. Mark my words, my friends: Tom was here before the river and the trees; Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn. He made paths before the Big People, and saw the little People arriving. He was here before the Kings and the graves and the Barrow-wights. When the Elves passed westward, Tom was here already, before the seas were bent. He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless – before the Dark Lord came from Outside.'

(Chapter 7 of FOTR)

P.S. : note though, that it is possible that 'the Dark Lord coming from Outside' means Melkor returning to Beleriand after his release from Mandos' Halls and after the Darkening of Valinor. That, I believe, is what Morambar was arguing. Indeed, the stars were only placed by Varda just before the awakening of the Elves, not before the Valar descended into Arda.
I have never beleived that Tom was Eru or Tolkien himself but I prefer to stick to 'Enigma' or 'Discords result'.
I always used to think that Tom was a Maiar, but over the years Virumor has enlightened me to another way of thinking. The Ainur, together with Iluvatar, sang the First Great Music which in turn became the theme of Ea. It was Iluvatar who created the vision of Ea, however, and who provided the Ainur with the material with which to create it. It was he who breathed the Flame Imperishable into Ea, to give it life.

That is what I now see Tom as being - a part of that direct input from Iluvatar into Ea, maybe a focusing of the Flame Imperishable into one spirit (obviously not the whole Flame, but a part). As such he is an enigma. He is something created, maybe accidently, during the creation of Ea, and as such is part of the actual spirit of Ea.
What you are suggesting is another one of my theories on many other forums - Tom is mother (or father) nature. He has part of the world inside him and thus he can control elements of the world itself.
well in my oppinion he is an enigma, it would have been nice for him to have a title, but his title is Tom Bombadil, that is all
Yes, except he was also known as:
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"Iarwain Ben-adar we called him, oldest and fatherless, But many another name he has since been given by other folk: Forn by the Dwarves, Orald by Northern Men, and other names besides." - So said Elrond at his Council in the FotR.
what if he was something like an ent
since ents were created just after drawves or whatever, that compromise thing, would it make sense that Eru had already forseen the need fo "sheperds" so could he have not just thought hmmm, lets make some old guy who can take care of all the squirrels or something. then after the squirrels get finding nuts, all tom has to do is chill with goldberry
Ents were created by Yavanna and given life by Eru. Therefore what you are suggesting would mean that Yavanna was on Arda before Tom Bombadil, which as we have seen could not be possible as he was before all Ainur.
Also Yavanna created the Ents after the First war of Melkor when the world was made into three. So what your suggesting is that he was not even around when the Valar dwelt on the Ilse of Almaren.
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hmmm, lets make some old guy who can take care of all the squirrels or something. then after the squirrels get finding nuts, all tom has to do is chill with goldberry

No, that was not Tom. That was Plasticsquirrel.

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Also Yavanna created the Ents after the First war of Melkor when the world was made into three.

Yavanna did not create the Ents, the Ents were Maiar sent forth by Eru on Manwë's bidding (after Yavanna had sought his counsel) to inhabit the elvar and olvar, as soon as the Children would awake. This has already been discussed here : Strange creatures

As for 'the world made into three', I have no idea what that's supposed to mean.
For some strange reason, I don't know why Very Mad Smilie but I had it in my head he was a Human man!

I voted for the Maia but after reading the above I now am at a total loss and don't know what he was Elf Confused Smilie but he was good!
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but he was good!

Is that why he let Goldberry do all the housework? Really, if I were her I'd jump right back into my river.

I really wonder why she did not deliver any of those 'I fear a cage'-soliloquys.
When I say Yavanna created the Ents I mean she was the one who asked for there being but Eru sent them forth.

The world was split into three after melkor cast down the lamps Illuin and Ormal. It split into Endor (Middle-earth), Aman (valinor) and the Lands of sun. It was originally one land mass with a Great lake and an Ilse in that lake known as Almaren where the Valar dwelt.
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It split into Endor (Middle-earth), Aman (valinor) and the Lands of sun. It was originally one land mass with a Great lake and an Ilse in that lake known as Almaren where the Valar dwelt.

What are the Lands of sun?

As far as I know, there were only Endor and Aman after the destruction of Almaren, although JRRT did mention a region called the 'Empty Lands' lying east of Middle-earth.
Ahh.. You don't know about the lands of sun, also called the Gates of Morning? Well let me tell you a bit:

When the World begun there was Middle-earth which essentially covered the whole world save a Great Lake in its center. On that lake was the Ilse of Almaren where dwell the Valar. In the North run the Iron mountains where Melkor made his stronghold.
Now after Melkor came back into Ea from fleeing from Tulkas he cast down the two great Pillars of light. With there fall the world broke into three large continents:

Aman/Valinor in the far west, Endor/Middle-earth in the middle and the Lands of sun in the far east. Aman and ME were seperated by the sea of Belegaer save for the Helcaraxe in the far north which was Ice joining Valinor to ME.
The Lands of Sun were seperated from ME by the Great Eastern sea.

Now when the second war between Melkor and the Valar came along, known as the War of Powers, the world was again changed. The inland sea of Ringol had gone from the South of ME and out in the Great Eastern Sea, in between ME and the Lands of Sun another land formed - the Dark South land. ME, the lands of Sun and this Dark land were wholly seperated from eachother by sea.

I suggest you read the 'Atlas of Tolkiens Middle-earth' for far more information.

Surely some other members know about all this? This is quite common knowledge.
Here is a map of the ENTiRE of Arda for you. This is just after the War of Powers:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/83/Arda.png

The land you sea in the very East is the Lands of sun/gates of morning.
Perhaps you could direct us to where this is mentioned. I recall something in HOME about the land being flooded but I have never heard of Lands of the Sun before. I'm pretty sure it isn't mentioned in the Sil or LotR so it is more likely to be in Home?
The Walls of the Sun are mountains in the land to the far east of the East Sea before and after the breaking of the world, with the Dark Land, Inner Sea, Hither Lands, and finally Rhûn as you move west and a tad bit north according to The Atlas of Middle Earth.
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The land you sea in the very East is the Lands of sun/gates of morning.

I am sorry, but 'Lands of sun/gates of morning' is mentioned nowhere on that map.

Common knowledge or not, my question remains, where did you get the term 'Lands of sun' from? Is it mentioned in the Atlas of Middle-earth or not?
Backtracking a bit (don't know how I missed how this thread has grown: ) Vir precisely and correctly identified what I was saying before, that if the mention of the stars is meant to date Bombadil then it places him well after the entry of the Valar into Ea, and that Melkor was long bound in Valinor (on two separate occasions, IIRC, which only further complicates the issue,) down to the time of the Exile, giving Tom ample time to cavort in Middle-earth free of his interference. Though the idea of Bombadil being the Professors version of the mice has some appeal, too. I guess I just don't like the idea of an unknown in the Professors comprehensively and meticulously crafted world. Bombadil the Non-Sequitur is unappealing to me.
Quoting Vir's quote.....
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Tom was here before the river and the trees; Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn. He made paths before the Big People, and saw the little People arriving. He was here before the Kings and the graves and the Barrow-wights. When the Elves passed westward, Tom was here already, before the seas were bent. He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless – before the Dark Lord came from Outside.'


It doesn't say he arrived after the stars just that he knew the dark under the stars. It also says he remembered the first raindrop and I imagine there had been rain way before the elves awoke. If he remembers the first rain then he was already 'in situ' at the very beginning.

Viromer -I just said, the Lands of sun is the land in the Far east you can see on that map. If you don't believe they exist here is a quote:

"Thus it was that because of the Ban of the Valar the voyages of the Dúnedain in those days went ever eastward and not westward, from the darkness of the North to the heats of the South, and beyond the South to the Nether Darkness; and they came even into the inner seas, and sailed about Middle-earth and glimpsed from their high prows the Gates of Morning in the East."
(The Silmarillion)

Also the highest mountain in the Lands of Sun/Gates of morning is called Kalorme, highest of mountains in the world save only Taniquetil:

"Then calling loudly that Manwe and Varda and all thei folk come forth he held before their eyes his thong of gold and they knew not his purpose; but Orome bid them cast their eyes on that Hil that is called Kalorme standing hugely in the lands most distant from Valinor, and is held most lofty save Taniquetil, yet seemeth therefrom a dim thing fading afar off. Even as they watched Orome stepped back, and putting all his cunning and his strength thereto he made a mighty cast, and that golden cord sped in a curve through the sky until its noose caught Kalorme's topmost pinnacle. Then by the magic of its making and the cunning of Orome's hand it stayed a bright golden curve and neither drooped nor sagged; but Qrome fastened its hither end to a pillar in Manwe's courts, and turning to those who gazed upon him said: "Who then listeth to wander in the Great Lands, let him follow me," and thereat he set foot upon the thong and sped like the wind out over the gulf even to Kalorme, while all upon Taniquetil were silent in amaze. Now did Orome loosen the thong from Kalorme's peak and run as swiftly back, ravelling it as he came, until once more he stood before Manwe. Then said he: "Lo, 0 Sulimo Lord of the Airs, way I have devised whereby any of the Valar of good heartmay fare whithersoever they list in the Great Lands; for whither they wish I will cast my slender bridge, and its hither end wilt thou securely guard."
(The Book of lost tales)

The Girdle of Arda (Equator) runs horizontally through Kalorme and Taniquetil, the two furthest places away from eachother in Arda.
Another quotes:

"In the East of the world are the Walls of the Sun, which is a great mountain range symmetrically answering the Mountains of Valinor in the West, as shown on map IV. Of this range there is no mention in the Lost Tales, where almost all that is said of the East is contained in Orome's words to the In the East beyond the tumbled lands there is a silent beach and a dark and empty sea' (I. 214); in the East also was the great mountain Kalorme (I. 212), and there Aule and Ulmo 'builded great havens [of the Sun and Moon] beside the soundless sea' (I. 215). In the Ambarkanta the Gates of Morn, through which the Sun returns from the Outer Dark in the Lost Tales, have disappeared."

I hope now I have convinced you that the Dark Land and the Lands of sun/Gates of Morning exsist?
The Walls of Sun are the mountains in the Gates of Morning. The land you see in the very east of that map above are the Gates of Morning.


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Backtracking a bit (don't know how I missed how this thread has grown: ) Vir precisely and correctly identified what I was saying before, that if the mention of the stars is meant to date Bombadil then it places him well after the entry of the Valar into Ea, and that Melkor was long bound in Valinor

I suggest you visit the "Was Tom Bombadil important?" thread for more on this- Varda had already placed stars in the sky prior to the first War of the Valar and before the destruction of Almaren; prior to the awakening of the Elves she only placed new and brighter ones in the sky.

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It doesn't say he arrived after the stars just that he knew the dark under the stars. It also says he remembered the first raindrop and I imagine there had been rain way before the elves awoke. If he remembers the first rain then he was already 'in situ' at the very beginning.

My belief I posted in this thread is that he arrived as soon as Eru spoke the word 'Eä!' and sent forth the Flame Imperishable and gave life to the Vision.

Obviously Bombadil didn't arrive after the stars, as the quote I posted makes it clear that he was already on Arda before Melkor descended into Arda, hence before there were any stars at all.
I think we should abadon the idear that Tom Bombadil was not on Arda before the Ainur. It quite clearly says he was if you work it out, and I am glad Vir agrees.

Can I assume from your silence to my overlong thread Vir that you have accepted my points on the Gates of Morning? It took me a while to find that map above, and although it has a few minor inaccuracies it is quite useful to have around.

I strongly recommend you get 'The Atlass of Tolkiens Middle-earth' by Kate fryss (something like that). It is very helpful with geographic info on Tolkien.
Yes, methinks I am getting confused. I read Morambars post as saying that the quote showed Tom appeared after the stars which is in conflict with the other evidence. My apologies, Morambar, if that was incorrect.

As I said earlier, and Val said similar, it is nice to think of Tom as a spark of The Flame, something that flashed into being at the moment of creation.

Thanks for quotes, LoA. One thing I love about Tolkien's writings is that you never really see it all the first time and subsequent readings bring new elements to light.
Well providing all goes well and there are some more, strict lore discussions to post in I will happily give quotes and inlightning posts where possible. It just so happens that the discussion of the Lands East of ME is one that interests me much.
I'm willing to grant the first rains preceded the stars, but we don't have even a vague date for them as we do for Varda being the Kindler. However, recourse to the Silmarilion does show that Varda merely made new and brigter stars to complement existing ones. In the end, though, we have no reason to think Bombadil preceded the Ainur into Ea, and every reason to suspect otherwise since the latter arrived immediately after creation. It comes down to a matter of personal preference, really, since there's no data apart from his inconclusive quote in the Fellowship, and all it tells is that he was there before Melkor came to Middle-earth without revealing whether this was before or after the Exile of the Noldor (assuming, of course, that it is Melkor who is meant, and not Sauron after Melkors second capture, after the Atalante, or even his resurrection following the First War of the Ring.)

Essentially, I reason inductively: everything in Ea fits neatly into one or more parts of the following taxonomy: Valar, Maiar, Quendi, Naugrim, Atani, Kelvar or Olvar. This is the Professors version of the Great Chain of Being, and whether we're dealing with Kelvar like Shelob, Maiar like Melian & Ungoliant or composites like Luthien & Earendil, there's a place for everything and everything in its place. I've yet to see compelling cause for Tom Bombadil to be different, and indeed it's counterintuitive to think him so. That doesn't mean he's not, only that I see no reason to make him so, and can't accept him as such until such reason is presented. At the end of the day, I can't definitively say those who hold him to be so are wrong, but by the same token they can't say I am either. There's a world of difference between "what is he?" and "what do you THINK he is?" Which is why stuff like the Quickpoll exists. ;-p
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I hope now I have convinced you that the Dark Land and the Lands of sun/Gates of Morning exsist?
The Walls of Sun are the mountains in the Gates of Morning. The land you see in the very east of that map above are the Gates of Morning.

I'm still not convinced whether 'Gates of Morning' is the name of a land, or just a metaphore - for we also have 'Door of Night', for instance.

And you still haven't provided a quote where the term 'Lands of Sun' appears in.

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In the end, though, we have no reason to think Bombadil preceded the Ainur into Ea, and every reason to suspect otherwise since the latter arrived immediately after creation.

Bombadil clearly states that he was already in Arda 'before the Dark Lord come from Outside'. Unless you want to argue that the Dark Lord is not Melkor, this seems pretty much a wrap to me.

It seems Bombadil immediately arrived on Arda with creation.
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And you still haven't provided a quote where the term 'Lands of Sun' appears in.
That term is listed in the index of The Shaping of Middle-earth, Vol. 4 of HOME and leads to the followin text:
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The shape of the Earth in the East was much like that in the West, save for the narrowing of the Eastern Sea, and the thrusting of the land thither. And beyond the Eastern Sea lies the Eastern Land, of which we know little, and call it the Land of the Sun; and it has mountains, less great than those of Valinor, yet very great, which are the Walls of the Sun.

This is the first time I ever cracked the covers of this volume, but I knew that the late Karen Wynn Fonstad had a basis for showing these features in her The Atlas of Middle-earth.

Meanwhile, back to Tom Bombadil...
Thank you Grondmaster. I would have thought that I quoted enough to convinve Vir that the Lannds of Sun exist, but now i don't need to.

Anyway Morambar - Not everything fits into those catagories. You mention shelob being a different order to Ungoliant- how is that possible? They are one of the same.

Also could you quote that Ungoliant is a Maiar? I doubt you can. Tom Bombadil is an enigma. Here is the final quote:

"And even in mythical Age there must be some enigmas, as there always are. Tom Bombadil is one.(intentionally) Letters 144."
Grondmaster posted:
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This is the first time I ever cracked the covers of this volume, but I knew that the late Karen Wynn Fonstad had a basis for showing these features in her The Atlas of Middle-earth.

OK, thank you. Now it's finally clear what the name of this Eastern Land is.

Lord of all posted:
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Thank you Grondmaster. I would have thought that I quoted enough to convinve Vir that the Lannds of Sun exist, but now i don't need to.

Maybe if you had provided a quote containing the term 'Land of the Sun', which you clearly didn't.

Lard of all posted:
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Also could you quote that Ungoliant is a Maiar? I doubt you can.

We can deduce from the following quote of the Silmarillion, that Ungoliant is a Maia:
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There, beneath the sheer walls of the mountains and the cold dark sea, the shadows were deepest and thickest in the world; and there in Avathar, secret and unknown, Ungoliant had made her abode. The Eldar knew not whence she came; but some have said that in ages long before she descended from the darkness that lies about Arda, when Melkor first looked down in envy upon the Kingdom of Manwë, and that in the beginning she was one of those that he corrupted to his service. But she had disowned her Master, desiring to be mistress of her own lust, taking all things to herself to feed her emptiness; and she fled to the south, escaping the assaults of the Valar and the hunters of Oromл, for their vigilance had ever been to the north, and the south was long unheeded. Thence she had crept towards the light of the Blessed Realm; for she hungered for light and hated it.
Viromer - Its clear that I can never create a good enough post to satisfy you. You said you had never heard of lands east of ME so i give you lots of info and quotes, and still you find fault. Grondmaster posts one quote and your completely satisfied.

Secondly, that Quote proves little about Ungoliant being a Maiar. 'She descended from the Darkness that lies about Ea', not really proof that she is a Maiar becuase this could mean she is a Valar or Eru as well.
His name is Virumor. Just call him Vir like most of us do.

If I have understood correctly, Vir was looking for the exact words "Land of the Sun", which were not in your quote. But it was in Grondy's quote. And the part that proves Ungloliant is a Maia would be the words "and that in the beginning she was one of those that he corrupted to his service".

The professor himself says TB is an enigma, and that he doesn't need to be philosophizing about. But it sure is fun to do so anyway. Wink Smilie
Don't get me wrong, I think Ungoliant probably is a Maiar, but all I was saying was that it is nowhere near certain.

Also I said before anything else that the Lands of Sun were also called the Gates of Morning, so in theory if I had quotes mentioning one of the names it would have been sufficient.

Well now Grondmaster has posted that quote now Vir believes me at last, but with little doubt she will probably rebut what i have just said.
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Don't get me wrong, I think Ungoliant probably is a Maiar, but all I was saying was that it is nowhere near certain.

I'd say Vir's quote proved it quite clearly, but I have my opinion and you have yours. Happy Elf Smilie
Its says that Ungoliant desended from the darkness outside Ea. That could mean anything. It also says that she was 'said to have been one who Melkor corrupted to his service' - not difinate.
The Elves say many things, not all of which are true. Take Orcs for example. The Eldar say that the Elves who were captured by Morgoth were turned into Orcs, yet we know that they were bred from men as well. Also we know that it is likely that some of the leader Orcs were Maiar. Nothing is certain.
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