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After Moria and the rest of the Fellowship get to Lothlorien, in the book, chapter named 'Lothrorien' at the very end of the chapter it states......

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And taking Frodo's hand in his, he left the hill of Cerin Amroth and came there never again as living man


Does this mean he went there in some 'other' way?? If he never went there again would it not have stated that and not
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as living man
. It is written that Arwen went there to die. Did they meet in death?? I hope so.

Also, is it true that Galadriel and Celeborn also died??

Sorry for 2 questions - it's amazing the different things you pick up each time you read LOTR but had not really thought about before.
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It is written that Arwen went there to die. Did they meet in death?? I hope so.

Aragorn died in Rath Dínen, Arwen died on the hill of Cerin Amroth after she'd made the Choice of Lúthien, meaning that both their spirits would pass to Eru's Halls where they'd meet again. There, too, they would meet their illustrious ancestors : Beren & Lúthien.

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Also, is it true that Galadriel and Celeborn also died??

No, Galadriel returned to the Undying Lands and Celeborn joined her several years later.
In Love Smilie I think that it would be more romantic if after Aragorn died, his spirit waited on Cerin Amroth for the spirit of Arwen to join him, and together they made their journey to Eru's Halls. Were the Professor or his spirit still around to be asked if this was possible, he might agree that Maydmarion's quote above, lents it credence. In Love Smilie
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I think that it would be more romantic if after Aragorn died, his spirit waited on Cerin Amroth for the spirit of Arwen to join him, and together they made their journey to Eru's Halls.

Or, to make it even more romantic, maybe the quote means that they both kept living on the hill of Cerin Amroth as undead.

After all, The Corpse Bride was pretty romantic, wasn't it?
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Galadriel returned to the Undying Lands and Celeborn joined her several years later.


In the 'Appendix A' in the LOTR book I have, it states that...

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Galadriel had passed away and Celeborn also was gone,


Is there any books I could read to give the further information on Aragorn, Arwen and Galadriel?

Oh, Vir....I never saw 'The Corpse Bride' - sounds gruesome Dead Smilie......and Vir where's your romance gone In Love Smilie
There's nothing beyond what's written in The story of Aragorn & Arwen in the Appendices.

And 'Galadriel passed away, Celeborn was gone', simply means that Galadriel was in Valinor (remeber that she set off together with Elrond, Frodo, Gandalf & Bilbo) and Celeborn followed her some time later, though not immediately. I am sure it is mentioned in the Appendices too that Celeborn first started a new realm in Mirkwood, but later on moved to Rivendell for a while before he missed Galadriel so much that he set off to Valinor too.
Doesn't it state somewhere in The Silmarillion that the last of the Noldor departed from Middle Earth forever when the white ship that set sail with Frodo, Gandalf, Elrond, and Galandriel left. Meaning that Galandriel and Elrond were the last of the Noldor to leave Middle Earth.... I know Celeborn was of the Sindar, so that excludes him, but i'm just curious about Galandriel and Elrond being the last of the Noldor to leave Middle Earth.

Galandriel must basically be the longest surviving of the exiles to stay in Middle Earth and almost one of the oldest elves of age, with the exception of the elves who stayed in Valinor.
I think the rest of the remaining Noldor had left not too long before them. Seeing as how they were the "leaders/elders" (or whatever the correct title would be) of the Noldor in middle earth, it would only be fitting if they were the last to leave. Though Galadriel was only half Noldor.
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Though Galadriel was only half Noldor.

Practically, she was 1/4 Vanya, 1/4 Noldo and 1/2 Teleri. Her father was half Noldo.

But her father's house was counted amongst the House of Finwë, hence Galadriel is counted as fully Noldo too.

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I know Celeborn was of the Sindar

In the Silmarillion, yes. But in another version in Unfinished Tales Celeborn is a Teleri from Alqualondë.
Sorry Tinúviel but i'm going to have to agree with Virumor on this one. If you had to be 100% Noldor blood to be considered Noldor, then the Noldors would be greatly diminished in stature, and Fingolfin, Finarfin and they're whole family would be taken out of the Noldor bloodline.

Thanks for reminding me about the Celeborn predicament Virumor, i also own The Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales also, i'd just like to point out something the Christopher Tolkien writes in his introduction to Unfinished Tales.

When the author has ceased to publish his works himself, after subjecting them to his own detailed criticism and comparison, the further knowledge of Middle-earth to be found in his unpublished writings will often conflict with what is already 'known', and new elements set into the existing edifice will in such cases tend to contribute less to the history of the invented world itself than to the history of its invention. pg 4

basically what he's trying to say there is we should consider The Hobbit and LOTR 'official' and 'known' history of Middle-earth. It's Tolkien's own published work as he saw fit. The Silmarillion was very close to being finished, but the order of events were out of order and some little blanks had to be filled in, by Christopher Tolkien, to make it a coherent narrative. Although Christopher Tolkien would like The Silmarillion to be 'known' history as well.

If that is the case I'd think Christopher Tolkien, and hopefully J.R.R Tolkien, would prefer us to rely on information in The Silmarillion to out weight any other of the Books there were released, with the exception of The Hobbit and LOTR.
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The Silmarillion was very close to being finished, but the order of events were out of order and some little blanks had to be filled in, by Christopher Tolkien, to make it a coherent narrative.

JRRT worked on the Simarillion his entire life, it was never close to being finished; Christopher Tolkien and co-author Guy Gavriel Kay sometimes had to rewrite complete chapters to fit some pieces together coherently, even.

For instance, most stories JRRT was working on near the end of the life, are not in the Silmarillion and are often completely different.

Christopher Tolkien and Kay basically put some stories that seemed to fit with each other together, which became the Sil. All the rest became History of Middle-earth. The things Christopher Tolkien didn't make it to the Sil but were applicable, eventually became Unfinished Tales.
Thanks that's good info to know. I figured with the forwards and introductions Christopher Tolkien writes in The Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales, it'd be more coherent and logical that whenever there is a conundrum such as the Celeborn incident, probably The Silmarillion's history would be the wiser to side with.

Although there are inconsistencies within The Silmarillion itself it is more of a 'polished' finish that Unfinished Tales and any other material that was published after Tolkien's death.
I'm not sure, but I believe it's mentioned in UT that JRRT's "final" version of the story of Galadriel & Celeborn, is one where they met each other in Alqualondë and sailed away from Aman to Beleriand already before the Rebellion of the Noldor... which goes linea recta against everything what JRRT wrote before.

Needless to say, it was completely logical that Christopher Tolkien disregarded this tidbit.

There's also various versions about their life in Middle-earth... in some versions Amroth is their son, in other versions he's not, in some versions Galadriel had known Annatar/Sauron in Ost-in-Edhil and distrusted him, etc etc.
Yes who's to say which version is right and wrong. I guess it all comes down which version you prefer to go with. It could be like one of those "choose your own adventure" books that were fairly popular over a decade ago. At the end specific paragraphs you could 'control' the protagonist's actions and fate by selecting one of the couple options it gave you.


How fascinating.
In one of Tolkien's letters he mentions how because of carelessness he lost work. It never says he found it again or anyone else. So I wonder, if not, was there still more bits and pieces that would have really added to or even shocked us readers as to content?
I was so disturbed that he was so casual with a lot of his work that, for myself I take care to put everything away.
Because you never know down the road when you want to refer back to something that is precious to you . And to never find it again and not be able to fully and completely remember it how it was is sad really.
And something else that has troubled me, but being new to all this.....
Did it say that lady Arwen and Aragorn had daughters as well as male heirs? And if so I don't recall ever hearing what became of them, their dooms. Any thoughts?
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So I wonder, if not, was there still more bits and pieces that would have really added to or even shocked us readers as to content?

Well, I believe in the earliest version of LOTR Strider was "Trotter" and not a man, but a Hobbit with wooden feet (he had lost his foot in Mordor through torture, apparently).

You might find more of this in History of Middle-earth (Book of Lost Tales, most probably).
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Leelee
Did it say that lady Arwen and Aragorn had daughters as well as male heirs? And if so I don't recall ever hearing what became of them, their dooms. Any thoughts?


Yes they had 1 male heir Eldarion and according to some facts 'at least two daughters', however, the daughters remain nameless. As far as I know Tolkien never followed up with the history behind Aragorn's children.
Thankyou, that is what I thought h appened. That is so grievous to me. To think that two beautiful daughters, the fruit of Aragorn and Arwen, could be mere shadows , nothing at all to remember them by, their looks, their intelligence, their contributions to Middle Earth. For them to have lived and died with nothing to show for it is such a tragedy.
Oh well.................Sad Smilie
Maybe so Leelee, but that's only if you want to believe that. If you let your imagination take over they could have done great deeds, it's up the reader now.

I find with Tolkien, since a lot of his writings are left 'unfinished', he leaves a lot for the imagination, which can sometimes be as enjoyable as the actually reading, with the exception of closure.
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Yes they had 1 male heir Eldarion and according to some facts 'at least two daughters', however, the daughters remain nameless.

Five daughters, according to the Appendices, I believe.
Five daughters, wow.
And you are right Turin that it gives great scope of imagination. But I should rather have had at least a rough blueprint that I could then fill in with my own imaginings because otherwise we have nothing as readers to stand together in with the girls. Well and the heir to the Kingship really.
When I mention Galadriel at least all of us, no matter how many versions JRR did have something that we can collectively think about and t hen venture forth from that point with our own ideas. To not know even if they lived long or married or had babes of their own is a bit daunting. Because no matter what I dream up, in the end it was not my creation, so I should have loved very much to at least have the germ of a thought concerning them from their dear creator. It was not as if the very issue of two such huge figures in the History of Middle Earth were not very very important. We learn a lot about Sam's children.
Well enough whining. You do make a very good point.
very true Leelee. It would be nice to have at least some remote background information, so maybe you could 'fill in the blanks'. Alas this is not the case with Aragorn's children.
Filling in the blanks! How fun! I practically grew up "filling in blanks", though that was more for the Narnia books than for Tolkien's books. Remember that last paragraph in the Last Battle? I've read it over and over again hoping to deduce some fragment of what might've happened to everyone after the "fake" worlds were ended, but I've never really been able to, so you just have to let your own imagination take over. It was wonderful, of course.

But back to LOTR. I do have a question about the Elvesin Middle-Earth. Was the offer made to the Elves (that they could come to Valinor) at the very beginning still valid at the time of the Third Age, or did the Valar take it back when they hid Valinor so that only the ones they prefered could sail the "straight road"? And also, the invitation extended by the Valar to the Elves in the beginnings was not extended to all Elves, was it? The Avari were the ones excluded. Then that would mean that all the rest (Eldar) would be legible to go to Valinor, meaning that the Sindar could go, too. Then why didn't Celeborn go with Galadriel at the end of the Third Age? It seems strange that a husband and wife should want to be separated across the Sundering Seas no less. I know that Celeborn stayed and established whatever it was in Mirkwood, cleansing the forest of the "shadows" and all that, but why would he want to establish a kingdom if he wasn't going to stay in Middle-Earth? Why would he even think of establishing a kingdom when Galadriel was all the way at the other end of the ocean?

I understand that it's all just a matter of choice for Celeborn, whether to go early or late, but all the same, it seems strange that he should want to be separated from Galadriel.

Oh and as for that post about Galadriel being the eldest elf in Middle-Earth at the time, I think it's incorrect. Cirdan should be the oldest elf there, since he was there at the beginning, a favourite of Osse's and of the first mariners and shipwrights. At that time, Thingol was still missing, and I suppose that Galadriel was not yet born at that time and even if she was, she cannot be older than Cirdan, since she was born in Valinor and at that time only a few years had passed since the Noldor made it to Valinor.
i think you're correct about cirdan being the eldest elf in middle earth but it should be noted that he never set foot on valinor as far as i know when compared to galadriel.

as for 'the straight road' i think that after the hiding of valinor it was close to everyone including the sindar as those who lived in beleriand had to taste the bitterness of their rebellion including those who had nothing to do in it (take denethor for e.g. the kinsman of thingol who was killed by orcs). as for the road being opened for the valar preferred one's i think its incorrect because whatever the valar may do the highest authority remains with illuvatar and as i think mandos said many thing are not yet revealed even to them. so this may account for what you said about the people they preferred.
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The Avari were the ones excluded.

No, they weren't. They just refused themselves to go.

Legolas was a Silvan elf (descendant of both Sindar and Avari) and he could go, coudn't he?

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i think you're correct about cirdan being the eldest elf in middle earth but it should be noted that he never set foot on valinor as far as i know when compared to galadriel.

Maybe the eldest named elf. There could still be Avari in the East who awoke at Cuiviénen, but that we never heard about.

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Why would he even think of establishing a kingdom when Galadriel was all the way at the other end of the ocean?

Maybe he was jealous because of the whole Gimli-thing..

Anyway, back to Aragorn, I wish JRRT had written more about Aragorn's exploits during his years as Thorongil when he served Thengel and Echtelion II (we only knew he burnt the ships at Umbar, without the details) and what he did exactly in Rhûn and Harad during his travels there.

This is a topic that intrigues me a lot.
I wish he had written more too because there is something so hidden, so tantalizing about Aragron, this gentle but grimfaced man who you just know suffered a lot more than we read about,did a lot more. He is in a way an unsung hero. By that I mean that although he had a certain Doom and walked toward it, he was no coward and wanted to fulfill it, but he also was a closed mouth man in many ways and kept hidden so much of the glorious stuff he did for the benefit of others in Middle Earth. This was not some pretty boy who just bided his time until the hour that he should go forth and claim his kingship and the beautiful Arwen Evenstar.
This was a noble good man who fought hard and long in many places , already behaving in a caring kingly way to protect those who would one day belong to h im as King.
Yes i agree Aragorn was an unsung hero before his kingship. But once you become king and as long as you do good for your people you just become a hero. All your deeds will be recorded and remember amongst your people.
Didn't Aragorn just wander about, learning stuff and making useful acquaintances, honing his fighitng skills, leading his Dunedain, helping Men and Elves (not sure about Dwarves), and all that before he came into the story?

I always got the feeling that he was some kind of a traveller, or pilgrim, if you like.
No, all his actions before the War of the Ring had a purpose : paving the way to Kingship, then after 2980 there was also the extra purpose of proving himself worthy to Lady Undómiel.

But yes, in the first years after he left Rivendell (the years 2950 => 2956 T.A. before he had met Gandalf), it could very well have been that he was nothing more but a vagrant, a swashbuckling adventurer desperately to forget the tormenting memory of meeting Lúthien's likeness... until Gandalf set him on the right track again.

Yes, it could very well have been.
sorry to bothering you guys ummm.
is that true that aragorn is half half elf????? is hardly to find the book for me
only watch the movies

thanx for answer any way
i don't think so. hi mother and father were dunedain; arathorn and gilraen. but you may say that he has some elvish blood because his line is descended from beren and luthien who 'was' an elf.

beren=luthien
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Dior-Nimloth(another elf)
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Elrond & Elros
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Kings Of numenor
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Aragorn
Aragorn is indeed a descendant of Lúthien, but he is a Man since he's also a descendant of Elros (Elrond's brother and the great-grandson of Lúthien) who chose to be counted amongst Men, hence making all his descendants automatically Men too, without the option to revoke Elros's choice.

It should also be noted that Lúthien was mortal upon her return to Beleriand with Beren, hence her son Dior should be mortal too; the ambiguity of the lineage instead comes from the union between Tuor & Idril, making the lineage of Eärendil unclear - which is why his descendants (Elrond & Elros are his sons) had to choose which race to be counted amongst. Though one can make a stand for the linage of Elwing too, considering her mother Nimloth was an Elf.

It is Arwen, Elrond's daughter, who is half-Elven : since her father chose to be counted amongst Elves, Arwen was Elvish at birth (granted since her mother Celebrían was Elvish) but she still had the option to choose mortal life which she duly did by not parting with her father to the Undying Lands.
you're right virumor. that's why i said luthien was an elf. still all the half even line is confused as one might say.

for e.g if beren was a man and luthien became mortal after their return why should dior be numbered as an elf when both his mother and father were mortals?

and so it would go on with no end so lets finish with: "ARAGORN IS NOT HALF ELVEN"
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for e.g if beren was a man and luthien became mortal after their return why should dior be numbered as an elf when both his mother and father were mortals?

That question still has no answer, since even JRRT himself wrote contradictory information about this topic.

There's more on this in the Dior thread (wherever that one is located now, I remember posting there a few weeks/months ago...).
Ya that whole Dior bit always confused me, because from what i recall he was known as an Elf, yet Luthien choose the mortal life when conceived with him.
I find that dizzying and rather confusing as well.
I think it would be quite devestating to a child to find out that his elven mother or father had chosen to be mortal making he or she automatically mortal and here the child so wished to be elven. dreadful
Then the child is being quite childlike. The parents should have sat her down early and explained to her the facts of life, er...death, and with the pros and cons as why this was the right choice to make to lessen the chance of a problem later on.
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I think it would be quite devestating to a child to find out that his elven mother or father had chosen to be mortal making he or she automatically mortal and here the child so wished to be elven. dreadful

An 'Elven' mother and father cannot really choose to be mortal... only 'Half-Elven' can. I think the child should honour its mother and father, and hence respect their parents' choice. If the child would scorn their parents' choice, it would simply scorn itself.

I think a child of mortal parents, growing up in a society of mortals would not really wish to be immortal either. At least, provided it had received proper education. The Men of Númenor ultimately longed for immortality, hence their downfall. They simply did not understand how mortality was the greatest Gift of the One, how after their lives they would join Him in His Halls.

Instead, they longed for something they did not understand at all. Immortality is nothing but a burden, being bound to a waning and declining world until it is broken and remade.
says you!(laughing til I fall off my chair.). Those Numenorians were just that dear Vir and they indeed did long for that which was outside of their realm
But if I were one of t hem down the line and found out that I had from way way way back even a scintilla of Elvish blood, then bob's your uncle I should grab that in a h eartbeat.Smile Smilie
I just read that poem Firiel(spelling) meaning Mortal woman, and how the Elven ship is sailing away and they call to her to come. But she does not because well, it is not her destiny after all ,no matter how wondrous it sounds. She, in your eyes then, would be a good mortal right?
Hmm I have forgot, did I ever give you that cup of sugar........neighbor? Smile Smilie