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If you were iluvitar or one of the valar would you fix the battle scars of MD or change it somehow. (after defeation of sauron)
I would do as Iluvatar did, let the people remaining in ME fix the scars of battle themselves.
Yes, what better way to fix scars by covering them with even larger ones?
if i would be iluvitar i would give the remaining ents their wifes back so their race would not vanish.
It would be nice if the scars were to be mended, but it would not be right to do so, for obvious and not so obvious reasons.
If Illuvator were to mend the scars, he would be visibly and openly interfering in ME matters, which he doesn't do. After the Ring was destroyed, the Third Age ended, and the Fourth Age, the Age of Men, began. The First Age was the age of the glory and power of Elves, the Valar were still a part of ME at that time. The Second Age was the age of the glory and power of Men. The Valar were still a part of ME, but they didn't involve themselves in it's events until they were provoked, and even then they didn't do anything themselves, but laid their power before Illuvator. That pretty much ended the involvement of the Valar in ME affairs. The Third Age had nothing to do with the Valar. It was the age of the waning of Elves, and the waxing of the dominence of Men, for Illuvator, or even the Valar, to have done something that was visibly of their work in that age, anything at all other than attempting to influence events by means of things like weather, would have stopped the waning of the Elves for a long time, and interferred with the dominence of Men. Same with the Fourth Age, interferrence with events would have taken away the power of Men. The fate of ME was no longer in the hands of the Valar or Illuvator, it was in the hands of Men, to mend or mar.
"If Illuvator were to mend the scars, he would be visibly and openly interfering in ME matters, which he doesn't do."

Except when he changed the whole world with the Downfall of Numenor, the removal of the Blessed realm from Arda, creating new lands and new seas east and west of Middle-earth...
Granted, but I made a referance to that:
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involve themselves in it's events until they were provoked, and even then they didn't do anything themselves, but laid their power before Illuvator.
I noticed that reference but did not know you meant it in that content. I thought you just said that to show how much the Valar had stood back in the events of the Second Age.
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I thought you just said that to show how much the Valar had stood back in the events of the Second Age.

That's what I meant, but I was pointing out that event to show what I meant.
Then I offer my apologies for the confusion.
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Yes, what better way to fix scars by covering them with even larger ones?


Oh yes, in the end the wound will become so great that the world will die and everyone will find peace in death.
I'm looking forward to that day.

Hear the clarion call!
You might not like it if it arrives while you're alive. Lighening Smilie Dead Smilie
I wouldn't mind being alive when it strikes. Just come when I'm asleep. Then maybe I'll simply fall into the world I'm dreaming of (and please don't let that be Thangorodrim).
If i were illuvatar the thing that i would certainly do would be to reduce in some way the gifts given to the elves. whether you agree with me or not the elves are in large part responsible for the conflicts which occured throughout the ages.

first their was the rebellion of feanor which bought treachery to ME and caused much grief among the elves and he was the leader in the first kinslaying. i know that whether or not feanor had come to ME there would have been war but the curse he and his kin bought bought much evil the elves who had dealing with them and also the men.

then there was the forging of the rings of power. not knowing that their power couldbe corrupted is not an excuse and they cannot certainly be let of the hook so easily however noble or well meaning they were. being illuvatar i would have long pondered on that.
You're blaming the wrong ones. It's all Melkor's fault. Without this nasty bugger, there would be no Balrogs, no Sauron, no rebellion of the Noldor, etc.

So if you were Ilúvatar, you had better unmake Melkor.
Vir - i think you need to widen your view a bit on Melkor. Of all the Ainur he played the most vital role in the creation of Iluvatar.

Iluvatar needed Melkor's evil to allow the world and his Children to come to a greater level of understanding. He needed Melkor to be his Instrument in the creation of the 'Second Arda' after the Last battle when the World is broken and the Ainur sing a Second Music. It is this theme that allows this new Arda to become the one which they saw in the Vision that was shown to them by Iluavatar.
For this all to come true Iluvatar needed Melkor to distort the original Arda so that the Second Music 'Would be Played aright'.

Read this quote:

"And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined."

See? 'He that attempts to alter the designs of Iluvatar will prove but his instrument in creating the Second World'.

And to prove that what I have been saying is right read this:

"Yet of old the Valar declared to the Elves in Valinor that Men shall join in the Second Music of the Ainur; whereas Ilúvatar has not revealed what he purposes for the Elves after the World's end, and Melkor has not discovered it."

Here it is saying that in the Second Music of the Ainur men shall join in with the Valar. But what Iluvatar has in store for the Elves, who partook in the First Music, is unknown to all save himself.

Another quote:

"Never since have the Ainur made any music like to this music, though it has been said that a greater still shall be made before Ilúvatar by the choirs of the Ainur and the Children of Ilúvatar after the end of days. Then the themes of Ilúvatar shall be played aright, and take Being in the moment of their utterance, for all shall then understand fully his intent in their part, and each shall know the comprehension of each, and Ilúvatar shall give to their thoughts the secret fire, being well pleased."

Also this brings me to something I doubt anyone but the most analytical will agree with....

If you believe, like I do, That Iluvatar planned everything that was, is, and is to be (fate I suppose), then SHOULD MELKOR BE PITIED???

If Iluvatar intended to create a being that will turn into the prime source of rebellion against himself then surely there was nothing Melkor could do about it. Surely Melkor was Doomed, even before he was created to fall into Darkness by the plan of Iluvatar.
If this is the case then the main source of evils origin stems not from Melkor, but from Eru.
think it over and perhaps you will allow logic to prevail in your conclusion.

Perhaps this is what Iluvatar means here:

"And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite."

It means that Iluvatar is saying 'Everything that exists has its uttermost source in me' - hence everthing that phisically, mentally phycoligically exists derives in its most basic form from Eru himself - and that includes evil.
My personal belief is that Iluvatar is not wholly Good, Nor wholly Bad. He simply 'Is' and is the prime source of everything.
i agree with you lord certainly if illuvatar was only good he would be like manwe who does not understand evil as it is somewhere said in the sil. and also he would not have 'created evil' if he did not understand or had not it in him. that does not mean that he's bad but simply as lord said he IS.
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Iluvatar needed Melkor's evil to allow the world and his Children to come to a greater level of understanding. He needed Melkor to be his Instrument in the creation of the 'Second Arda' after the Last battle when the World is broken and the Ainur sing a Second Music. It is this theme that allows this new Arda to become the one which they saw in the Vision that was shown to them by Iluavatar.
For this all to come true Iluvatar needed Melkor to distort the original Arda so that the Second Music 'Would be Played aright'.

The First Music of the Ainur would have been played alright without Melkor's discord.

Melkor is not an instrument in creating the "Second Arda" because he won't be around at that point; he will be dead, which is exactly the reason why the Second Music will be played alright, because the Spoiler won't be around anymore to spoil.

In the quotes of Ilúvatar you provided, the One merely mentioned that Melkor, nor any other Vala, can create something that does not origine from Him. That is all.

The only things Melkor contributed to Arda and its Children, was hate, pain, sorrow and death. Nothing more.

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My personal belief is that Iluvatar is not wholly Good, Nor wholly Bad. He simply 'Is' and is the prime source of everything.

Considering's JRRT's faith, this is a preposterous belief. Eru is based on the Catholic God, hence Eru is All-Good.

It is not Eru who made Melkor evil, but Melkor himself; his Rebellion and Fall is only due to himself, just like with Lucifer in the Catholic Bible. Eru merely granted the Offspring of his Mind powers, and it was up to them themselves how they'd use them - or abuse them, in Melkor's case. They were not mindless puppets with Eru holding the strings.
so you think the elves are not at all wrong? but clarify something for me. what was the purpose of the rings of power? to prevent the decay of all thing THEY loved etc... in short to slow time because it was too fast for them in ME. hope u agree till here vir.

but do you think manipulating time for THEIR benefit is right because they only really benefited from the rings of power; the men became wraiths and the dwarves greedy.

and lord is certainly right when he says that mekor cannot and should not be unmade. he is part of ME and as the valar said to the elves about the ring "for good or wrong it belongs to ME" the same thing applies to morgoth because in the beginning he was one of those who descended in arda and as illuvatar had said there power would be forever bound with it till the end of the world.
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but do you think manipulating time for THEIR benefit is right because they only really benefited from the rings of power; the men became wraiths and the dwarves greedy.

Men became wraiths and Dwarves became greedy exactly because they used it for their own benefits as well. The only difference is that Sauron had never touched the Elven rings.

Sorry, I fail to see your point, if indeed there is one.
Vir - You just seem to have a very one way, never changing view about Melkor. The quotes I provided were fact not interpretation.

"For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined."

Melkor was that instrument in making the Second Arda even though he was not present (he was not dead however. What became of Melkor's spirit after Turin Turambar slayed him in the Dagor dagorath is unknown).
Melkor tried to alter the Music of Eru and attempted to alter Eru's designs. As such he proved to be the instrument that distorted the first Arda, to allow the Second Arda to become possible.
If Melkor had not existed there would have only been one Arda in existance, but the Valar who would govern it would be uneducated, having nothing evil to have challenged them, and the Children of Eru would be enducated as well, having not had to suffer pain and sorrow. By having the two Arda's all the beings came to a greater level of understanding, and as such, a better place was formed.

Thus Melkor was the most vital ingredient to Iluvatar's designs.

Also you are forgetting this:

"The love of Arda was set in your hearts by Ilúvatar, and he does not plant to no purpose."

Iluvatar does not make something that has no purpose in his creation.

As to whether you pity Melkor that depends on whether you believe Eru has panned the entire history of existance or not. I do. therefore I believe that he must have planned for Melkor to become evil, therefore Melkor could do nothing about it. Thus he should be pitied as he is doomed to fall.

You are also forgetting that the Ainur all come from Iluvatar's mind. Melkor came from Iluvatar's mind. Melkor can do nothing that the mind of Iluvatar has not already foreseen becuase he IS a segment of Eru's mind (as is everything).

As Thorin mentioned we only know one thing in Tolkien's myth to be 'all good' and that is Manwe for he alone (at least as far as was told to us) cannot understand evil, thus it does not enter his mind.
This is becuase Manwe is only made of the 'good parts' of the mind of Eru, whereas Melkor is mostly made of the bad.

Thus Manwe is far more like the 'God' we know who is 'all good', than Iluvatar is.

Iluvatar is neither good nor bad, he simply - is. Everything created in Ea and in the entire universe of Tolkien's myth DERIVED From Eru alone.
well i think it woild be better to create a new thread:

"Can the elves be held responsible for the wrongs of ME"

what i meant to say was that the elves benefited chielfly from the rings but in the end the other people sufferred most. See dain, brand, and so many others fell while the only elven casualties during the war of the ring were the elves of hollin and some troops from othlorien defending their homeland. maybe i'm not clear in expressing my self but put your love for elves away for a second and try to ponder what i'm trying to say.
This discussion fits well here though and is quite interesting at the minute.

(ps - why is it typing in bold when its not supposed to???)
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See dain, brand, and so many others fell while the only elven casualties during the war of the ring were the elves of hollin and some troops from othlorien defending their homeland. maybe i'm not clear in expressing my self but put your love for elves away for a second and try to ponder what i'm trying to say

Do you know what you are talking about?

Eregion (Hollin is the name in Westron) did not exist anymore during the War of the Ring, it was destroyed in the Second Age. During the War of the Ring there were only 3 Elven havens left : Lóthlorien, Thranduil's realm in Mirkwood and Rivendell.

During the War of the Ring, the few Elves that were left, suffered just like the other Free Peoples of Middle-earth... did you forget that not only Gondor was attacked by Sauron's armies, but also Lóthlorien and Thranduil's realm by the forces of Dol Guldur?

So I really do not know what you are trying to say. Sauron is responsible for all the wrongs in Middle-earth during the War of the Ring, the Elves suffered just like the others Free Peoples and looking at the history of Arda, were the race who suffered the most throughout - first due to Melkor in the First Age, later by Sauron in the Second Age and in the end the few Elves that were left lost their last havens by the destruction of the one Ring.

Did you forget how only the combined power of the Last Alliance of Men & Elves could topple Sauron at the end of the Second Age? Do you even understand the sacrifice that the Elves were accepting to make by agreeing to the destruction of the One Ring? Do you even understand how the Elves were the only race not to use their Rings of Power for domination or for wealth, but instead for preserving beauty?

I am sorry, but I find your statement about the Elves wholly preposterous, even obscene.

But of course, you are entitled to your opinion. If you wish to jump on the Melkor Fanboys bandwagon, go right ahead.

M3lk0r RuL3z!!
Perhaps me and Thorin are of the same opinion about Melkor, but we have jumped on no bandwagon. We simply see the bigger picture than you do yourself Vir, about Melkor. Eru would not have made him evil if it did not forfill a purpose in his creation.

Vir - I have started a new topic about this in the Silmarillion forum. You may be interested in partaking...
Here it is - Eru's creation
LoA, your quotes do not prove what you think they prove. Eru did create Melkor, but he created him to be good, not to be evil. Evil is something Melkor chose all by himself. And because he chose what he wanted over what Eru wanted, that is what made him evil. Therefore, when Eru set the Music before Melkor as before all the Ainur, and Melkor tried to subvert it, Eru began a new theme in that Music in order to show, as your quotes point out, that no created intelligence could thwart Eru's design which was to be shown forth in Arda and eventually in ME. Just because Melkor became the "instrument" of Eru in making Arda what it became, does not mean Melkor had no power of choice in the matter. Merely because Eru foresaw the outcome does not mean he forced Melkor to do anything.

The kind of "fatalism" which you imagine to be in the Sil and LotR is not there. I grant you that kind of "Wyrd" was in the Norse myths, and was in the end more powerful than the Norse gods. But Tolkien only took what he wanted from Norse mythology. We know--and yes, we do know for certain--that Tolkien underpinned his works through and through with Catholic theology. In Tolkien's mind, and therefore in the mind of Eru, there is no "plan" which inhibits a sentient being from exercising freewill. What each character does, in that scheme of things, is up to that character. So what Melkor did was Melkor's fault, and not Eru's. It was not Eru that forced Melkor to steal the Silmarils--it was Melkor's greed. It was not Eru that forced Melkor to kill Finwe for those jewels--it was Melkor's disregard for any life but his own. It was not Eru who forced Melkor to engage Ungoliant in killing the Two Trees--it was Melkor's desire for darkness to conceal his wickedness. It was not Eru that forced Melkor to warp the elves he captured into the orcish breed--it was Morgoth's insatiable desire for domination, to have all of Eru's world for his own.

Neither can you contend that the Valar would never have known evil, and therefore would never have had a complete knowledge of "life" without Melkor. Again, in this you follow too closely the "knowledge," as though it meant literally that one who "did not understand evil" was an ignoramous. No, not at all. Manwe was probably modeled on the Norse god Balder, who I think was always characterized as innocent. In Tokien's scheme of things, Manwe would not have understood, perhaps, Melkor's motivations, his reason's for doing evil. But Manwe certainly understood that to not do good was its opposite. If you deny him that knowledge, you are making Manwe into some kind of an idiot which Tolkien would not have written. What Manwe lacked--in the early stages of dealing with Morgoth--was an understanding of Morgoth's motivation. Manwe could only see Arda in relation to doing Eru's will. Morgoth could only see Arda in relation to his own power. When Manwe came to an understanding of Morgoth's mind, then we can say his character "grew," as Tolkien had designed such characters to grow.

Therefore, to conclude, I should say your idea that all the good that was accomplished in ME should be attributed to Morgoth, and that we should pity him because of his being regarded as evil, is ludicrous. Now I realize you in some sort "indentify" with him. But do not let your own preferences cloud your vision. Tolkien was showing us evil in Morgoth. Without choice, there is no good or evil. But Morgoth did choose, and he chose evil.
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Vir - I have started a new topic about this in the Silmarillion forum. You may be interested in partaking...

I have already stated my opinion, as have you. I see no other need to continue this argument.

I totally agree with Gandalf-olorin on this matter.
OK, back to this thread - the question was...

If you were iluvitar or one of the valar would you fix the battle scars of MD or change it somehow. (after defeation of sauron)

This is not about what Illuvitar would do or did or didn't do. It is what you would do.

I have to agree with Arath. It would be nice to see the Ents back with their wives.

As one of the Valar I would like to wander ME and meddle in the affairs of Men, influence, counsel, and gently shove them in the 'right' direction. I'd also send some elves back now and again to share their wisdom with Men. Dwarves would flourish in their own kingdoms and maybe I'd 'vanish' the Shire from the sight of Men so the Hobbits could live undisturbed.

Of course, all this would go against the original Illuvitar's plan but what's the point of being a god if you can't have fun.
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Of course, all this would go against the original Illuvitar's plan but what's the point of being a god if you can't have fun.

That's why I'd choose to be Bacchus/Dionysos, the God of Wine & Orgy... this even beats throwing down thunderbolts of lightning (very very frightening) from the Olympos.
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As one of the Valar I would like to wander ME and meddle in the affairs of Men, influence, counsel, and gently shove them in the 'right' direction.


You'd have a pretty hard time of it, considering that men were not easily influenced by the Valar, and wouldn't take too nicely to being even gently shoved, even if it were in the right direction.


You are a wise person, Gandalf-olorin, wiser than some people here. Or, at least, you use your wisdom while others don't. Elf With a Big Grin Smilie Elk Grinning Smilie
You just need to know their weak spot and then exploit it. Of course, I wouldn't do anything bad and it would be for their own good. I would choose my disguises carefully.... mwahahahahaha!
If you say so. Hopefully you'll be sticking around for a while, keep some people in line. Lighening Smilie