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Thread: BROKEN HEARTS

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Oh how my heart agrees. I firmly believe that it is those seemingly small things that are the real joy and treasure of our lives.When someone does not see this, cares nothing about a tiny hand in his, or the courage of a lame person to get around in this world, the smile of a shy person who had to use all his strength to give it, then the larger things are soon tattered and not the bright shining thing one t hought it would be. It is all the sweet king, generous, loving th ings one does along the way of the quest, especially in the darkest hours, that make the way lighter, and often at the end of the road it is those things that stand out and make you cry.
In one of Tolkiens letters he speaks about his deep sorrow at not being around enough for h is children. He said he had been a poor father and saw that hurt had come to his children. They had been the shining jewels in the crown he was making but he had not the eyes to see that a lot of times. He grieved over that I believe to his death. Not even not seeing his beloved Silmarillion treated as he liked hurt him the way that did.
I have to say that I was a bit perplexed by Rosie Cotton's personality in the BOOK. On screen I loved her, thought her sweet and sensitive, well she seemed that way.
But in the book she seems rather plain of mind and vision and not very inspiring.
However, that said, does anyone think that she must have had a broken heart at any time of Sam's abscence despite her seemingly being quite fine when he returned and talked to her that night?
I mean, if he loved her and she loved him and one day woke up and he was gone and she really had no idea why, don't you think even her little hobbit heart would have broken over the not knowing if he had found someone else or perhaps would never come back to the Shire again?
I am just wanting to hear other's thoughts on this.
I don't think they knew each other well enough prior to Master Gamgee leaving the Shire with the Hobbits, to be in love.

I think they only noticed each other the very first time after that shortcut to mushrooms. And from what I understood, there was hardly any love at first sight involved. I think only after Master Gamgee's return, they really got to know each other, which culminated in conjugation.
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I think they only noticed each other the very first time after that shortcut to mushrooms.
Rosie's last name was Cotton, not Maggot; though her father was also a farmer. However, Virumor's point is taken. Sam when climbing Mount Doom wanted to be back with the Cotton brothers and only included Rosie as a secondary thought; this happened on two occasions.

It was Rosie who always had her eyes on Sam while Sam had only just started considering her as more than merely their sister.

Just before the Battle of Bywater, Farmer Cotton knew Sam was interested:
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'What about Mrs. Cotton and Rosie?' said Sam. It isn't safe yet for them to be left all alone.'

'My Nibs is with them. But you can go help him, if you have a mind,' said Farmer Cotton with a grin.'

Still later, when Frodo wanted Sam to move in with him, Sam was awkward and turned red:
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'It's Rosie, Rose Cotton,' said Sam. 'It seems she didn't like my going abroad at all, poor lass; but as I hadn't spoken, she couldn't say so. And I didn't speak, because I had a job to do first. But now I have spoken...
Which means he was probably of two minds before he left on his and Frodo's adventure. Sam grew up while on the journey; he considered his mortality and decided he had better get on with his life just as soon as he'd get back home. Tolkien just forgot to add this extra padding to his most excellent story. Elf Winking Smilie
So they had noticed each other already before Master Gamgee left. That naughty little Hobbit.

I can imagine the Gaffer dragging his son all the way from the Cotton farm to Bag End on his left ear. "Lasses! Lasses! No good be them lasses!"
Thankyou that was very informative. Yes Sam did grow up and Tolkien said that Sam was the real hero because it was he and Rosie that typified the reality of life, love, marriage, children, enjoying things, just life.
I just wondered, because it seemed that if they had feelings for each other it would still hurt.
It certainly hurt Rosie, his wasting all that time when he was away saving the world; but her love was true and she waited for him to return, for she knew he would.
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'Hullo, Sam!' said Rosie. 'Where've you been? They said you were dead; but I've been expecting you since the Spring.'
Well that sentence alone tells me she was someone of strong character. If I cared about someone and did not know where he was I would be a shred, especially if I heard rumours that something evil may have befallen him. I think her loyalty then is a match for Sam's loyalty to his master Frodo. That is very touching. I am glad I am rereading the Trilogy, I have either missed a lot of forgotten a lot that it is important. I am just past Tom B and am starting to feel nervous and despondant. Time to go jogging.
Jog well, dear Leelee :-)

What about Frodo... I don't have any quotes to back up my feelings but I sense that at the end of the trilogy when Frodo goes to the Gray Havens it is with a certain amount of broken heartedness. I don't think life turned out at all the way he wanted it to; he loved the Shire but was just too worn down to stay and enjoy it and I think he must have been broken hearted about that. Please correct me if I'm off base, this is just a gut-level feeling I have.
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Leelee
I am just past Tom B and am starting to feel nervous and despondant. Time to go jogging.

Whoa CraZy! I have very recently decided to re-read the trilogy again too! They have entered Bree and Frodo had that little mishap with the ring, now this sinister Strider character wants a word with Mr. Frodo.
Oh well! I've just read that part last night! I'm now on the Breaking of the Fellowship, which I absolutely HAVE to read over and voer again. It is a classic chapter in the LOTR. I love Frodo's decisiveness, Sam's logical reasoning, Aragorn's troubled conscience, and Boromir's death (although that's not really in this chapter). Still, HAPPY READING EVERYONE!

Lesser known member of Professor Tolkien's Broken Hearts Club Band : Gorlim, husband of the fair Eilinel.

His ghost appearing to Beren after being brutally murdered by Sauron's henchmen, is reminiscent of Hamlet. Or Casper, for the younger uns in here.
Where did you get that from? I don't remember anything about ghosts in Tolkien...Mandos was always way too strict in his treatment of the dead...

Oh yeah, and other broken heart would include most of the characters in the Narn I Hin Hurin, most of the Elves, and everyone who participated in the Battle of Unnumbered Tears. And that was just a brief sketch of the broken hearts in Tolkien's world.
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Where did you get that from? I don't remember anything about ghosts in Tolkien...

From the Silmarillion.

For the same, have you never heart of the Oathbreakers? Paths of the Dead?
It was a good jog dear Sian, thank you. I must say that Frodo is my absolute, bar n one, favorite character. I love him and identify with him on a deep level. I cannot go into the why but it is so.
I think his heart was broken on different levels from the moment he was put on Bill the pony after being wounded by the Witch King and he looked at his friends and saw how sad and bowed low they were. It broke him. And although he had sometimes considered many in the Shire as foolish and annoying, the Shire itself was so dear to him and now he was not the same Hobbit at the end of it all that fell in love with the Shire. And to leave Sam (although temporarily) and Merry and Pippin behind forever must have been the ultimate breaking of his gentle heart despite the fact he was going 'home' as it were to Bilbo and the elves and Gandalf.

Turn,
I love 'hearing' your voice. I wonder if we will finish at the same time.

Cloveress YAY YOU ARE BACK. I have missed you and worried when you were gone so long. How precious to see that dear little avy and hear your thoughts once more.

Vir you have convinced me to get busy rereading the Sil after I finished reading this. There was so much packed into it, I am quite certain I absorbed only a small amount into t his brain.
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For the same, have you never heart of the Oathbreakers? Paths of the Dead?


Right. But that was only because they were cursed. Now I do not remember Gorlim being cursed. I only remmeber that he was called the Unhappy or something like that. And I agree with Leelee that you have inspired us to read the Silmarillion more thouroughly again. I seem to have forgotten more than I should have.
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I seem to have forgotten more than I should have.

I seem to have known almost less than that I've forgotten. Orc Grinning Smilie
Oh, and yes! I know why I did not think of the Oathbreakers when we were talking of ghosts. It's because I've never really thought of them as ghosts before, since they were denied rest. They never really DIED in the sense that they had gone to Mandos and came out again without a body. They were merely come to the end of their years but denied entrance to eternal rest.
I have to completely agree with that dear Cloveress. I too never considered them actually dead,but in a state suspended somehow between life and death as I preceive it.
Grondy you are too funny. pardon me but I must say hahaha.
Wild women eh Grondy dear. You are a walking best seller. Fortune will rain upon the person who gets to set you down on parchement with a good sturdy quill and a murky deep well of ink.
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Oh, and yes! I know why I did not think of the Oathbreakers when we were talking of ghosts. It's because I've never really thought of them as ghosts before, since they were denied rest.

That's exactly what a ghost is, a soul that's denied rest.
I must adamantly agree with Virumor. How else would you define a ghost?
Is there a difference between being denied rest and refusing to rest?
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and other broken heart would include most of the characters in the Narn I Hin Hurin, most of the Elves, and everyone who participated in the Battle of Unnumbered Tears

I think Narn I Hin Hurin is probably the gloomiest story by JRR. Everything goes wrong for all of it's heroes and the end is a bit pessimistic.I think Turin must be the character that suffers the most throughout JRR's work...
gorgeous avy Nienor.Yes that was indeed to my mind the most pessimistic of his work and I must say it reminded me over and over of his parents , especially his mother who laboured and suffered and who walked alone really and then died so terribly in poverty and sickness. There was no last minute miracle for her.
Yes upon further thought Vir perhaps, it is to me then like purgatory where you cannot go forward until the stain of sin is purged from the person and they can then have perfect peace and go and be with God. I am not sure. But since he was Catholic that must be what it was , a purgatorial thing.
I think one of the most painful moments is the separation of M erry and Pippin who seemed to be such kindred spirits, closer than real brothers. It is true that they both did noble things and made names for themselves in the world of elves, dwarves and others, but that moment of being wrenched from each other , Pippin going off with Gandalf, must have been a time of great brokenheartedness. Every moment of all their lives by that point was so precarious and who knew if they would ever see one another again in Middle-Earth. So I feel this qualifies as a broken hearted moment.
From the book I didn't get the feeling that the parting of Merry and Pippin after the viewing of the Palantir was so heart wrenching; though PJ made it quite so in the movie.
No, it wasn't a sorrowful departure at all. In fact, Merry was jealous that Pippin got to travel with Gandalf after the trick he had pulled with the Palantír.

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gorgeous avy Nienor

Yes, but I didn't know Padmé Amidala was an Elf!
I will be reading that part tonight so I will comment after. I was indeed speaking from the movie, cannot say I even remember it as it was in the book so I look forward to that little bit of time this evening to go through it.
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I was indeed speaking from the movie

Eh? Now that makes a whole world of difference, my dear!
It does and you and Grondy are three hundred per cent correct. So does that mean then that the love and friendship they bore for one another before leaving the Shire was not that deep, but that after the cruel road they travelled it cemented into something lasting and deep? Or having come home to the Shire did that oneness slowly crumble and fall away again I wonder.
You know dear Vir as I was reading away and noticed each time the poor travellers were given a tiny amount of Virumor to almost magically if you will dispel their fatigue and fear, I found myself thinking about how whenever things seem to take a dull turn you are always there to shake life and thought into us. I love it!
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Or having come home to the Shire did that oneness slowly crumble and fall away again I wonder.
As Merry and Pippin later became Master of Buckland (in 1432 SR) and the Took and Thain (in 1434 SR) respectively, their duties would have kept them apart with only a few occasions per year (or month or week)—they were hobbits after all—in which to socialize over a tankard or two of ale while reminiscing about the past.

However, in 1484 SR when Merry was 102, they both retired, giving up their duties to their sons and rode off together to be with King Éomer when he died. Then they rode on to Gondor where they spent the remainder of their lives. These two friends were laid to rest beside each other in honor among the great of Gondor in Rath Dínen, and ultimately beside King Elessar at his passing in 1541 SR.

(There is a lot of information that can be gleaned from the Appendices at the end of Return of the King. In this case from Appendix B.) Teacher Smilie
Yes I am falling in love with the appendices, they are a complete work in themselves aren't they and you sort of wish they could be expanded. But then it would never end and I would waste my life away looking up trivia instead of studying or caring for Hasia or all the other calls upon my life. Then I would have to live in a frayed tent somewhere at the edge of the city and of course would have no way to hook up my computer and t hen I would never get to be enriched by all of you.
okay..........I'm done.
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But then it would never end and I would waste my life away looking up trivia instead of studying or caring for Hasia or all the other calls upon my life.

Do not worry, there are others who are more than willing to oblige to such a task.

That is why I have 300 monkeys continuously reading 300 copies of LOTR, the Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales. In 300 years, they'll make perfect Tolkien scholars for thegrand-grand-grand-grand-grand-grand-grandchildren of our current PT members!
Oh how very kind of you. But the expense dear Vir, not to mention cleaning up after them. Really that is too much of a sacrifice. Please let us help you anyway you say. And also please don't name one of them Leelee! Happy Elf Smilie
I wonder sometimes about Isildur. I wonder what sort of person he was down deep; was he kind and gentle besides being a courageous and noble man? And did he experience grief of a sort at the loss of his brother and then dear father under the hand of the enemy? And if he did was that the reason his heart seemed to harden against unmaking the One Ring and keeping it even though it was with great personal pain to him. Was that the reason, broken heartedness and the bitterness that must surely accompany it that made him go against reason,a sort of vengence upon the enemy on behalf of his father , or was that merely a military strategy that most soldiers would have chosen in such a situation?
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Was that the reason, broken heartedness and the bitterness that must surely accompany it that made him go against reason,a sort of vengence upon the enemy on behalf of his father , or was that merely a military strategy that most soldiers would have chosen in such a situation?

That, together with the fact that there was no Gandalf the Wise around to make Isildúr understand that it was necessary to destroy the Ring so that Middle-earth would be safe for quit some time, until a new Shadow would resurface.

Perhaps Elrond & Co didn't yet fully understand at that point that the Ring had to be destroyed to utterly defeat Sauron... maybe they didn't yet understand how important the trinket was until the Istari arrived to guide them. So mayhaps we shouldn't be *that* hard on them, especially since without their oversights we would not have the story of LOTR in our bookcase.
I think that is a perfect explanation Vir. And you are so right about them not having the knowledge yet. Even Gandalf had to spend some seventeen years to even assure himself it was THE RING that was in Frodo's possession. And it was perfectly natural all t hrough history to take a spoil, a trophy from a war one had one. He was just being a normal military leader I think. And without wisdom he could not explain to his own self why the ring that the Enemy wore who had destroyed his father had now become so 'precious' to him.
Thankyou for this insight.
I believe I have a very good case for , if not a broken heart, a very wounded one. No I shall be brave and say broken. The heart of Gimli the dwarf concerning the golden lady of the morn Galadriel.
in my book pf 378 it says:

Tell me, Legolas, why did I come on this Quest? Little did I know where the chief peril lay! Truly Elrond spoke, saying that we could not forsee what we might meet upon our road. Torment in the dark was the danger that I feared, and it did not h old me back. But I would not h ave come, had I known the danger of light and joy. Now I have taken my worst wound in this parting, even if I were to go this night straight to the Dark Lord. Alas for Gimili son of Gloin!"
Any thoughts?
Certainly doesn't sound like PJ's Gimli, but Tolkien has made him full of pathos in this scene. One can't get anymore heart broken than that and still do the honorable thing by continuing on the quest. That may be another of the reasons that Legolas found Gimli endearing rather than a heartless rock-pounder.
Sauron had a broken heart after the destruction of the One Ring. Literally.

I don't like those bombastic, sentimental soliloquys of Gimli that much. It sounds like something from a medieval courtly love story, like the Lancelot & Guinevere romance.
Vir! poor Gimli. Gimli was old fashioned, he was very tender of heart in certain ways, why should he not speak thus. I love how he framed his feelings. I remember in The Hobbit that in the cave where there was sorrow and grief over one of the Hobbits death, a flood of loving emotions for one another, that is the dwarves was evident. There feelings ran as deep as the mines they dug I think.
As for Sauron I disagree. In the first place Vir dear one must actually in fact have a heart for it to break. He was heartless.
He did have a black, seething heart. I meant it literally.
Trust an elf to misunderstand Vir. blush blush. oops, sorry.
In my quest for Broken Hearts I have journey with the Ents for a little. I think collectively the Ents were melancholy for the Entwives, there was a longing and desire to find t hem. But I would not say they were exactly broken hearted for in the beginning both the Ents and Entwives did their own thing and did not seem that desperately in love.
But one Ent ,Bregaland, much younger than many. He would stop anytime he saw a Rowan tree and stop, stretch out h is arms, sing and sway as he sang.He told of the Rowan trees that he knew and loved passionately , but birds became unfriendly and tore at the trees because of greediness. They wasted fruit, throwing it down. Then came the dark and dread Orcs who cut down the precious Rowan trees.
Bregalad tells the drowsy Merry and Pippin about it in song:
O Oroarne, Lassemista, Carninmirie!
O rowan fair, upon your hair how white the blossom lay!
O rwan mine, I saw you shine upon a summer's day,
Your rind so bright, your leaves so light, your voice so cool and soft:
Upon your head how golden-red the crown you bore aloft
O rowan dead, upon your head your hair is dry and grey;
Your crown is spilled, your ovice is stilled for ever and a day.
O Orofarne, Lassemista, Carnimirie!
'the hobbits fell asleep to the sound of the soft singing of Bregalad, that seemed to lament in many tongues th efall of trees that he had loved.'
So I think he was truly broken hearted.
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So I think he was truly broken hearted.

I think he was just being hasty again.
Oh you. I think he was broken hearted. Ents have deep deep feelings too dear Vir.
I think the relationship with the Ents and Entwives though was not very deep in some ways. There simply was not enough love to cause both sides to find common ground. And though the Ents by Pippin and Merry's time were rather blue about the situation I personally think if any Entwives were still alive and not slaughtered they were living the free life of feminists!
Entwives does not sound feminist at all. The word immediately implies that they were romantically bonded to the Ents; considering they left the Ents, this makes them unfaithful, prissy she-plants.

To obliterate this peiorative connoctation, a better term might be Entettes or Entae.

As for Bregalad : there is no use crying over burnt bushes!
If you get anymore romantic and sensitive Vir I am sure I won't be able to cope. Smile Smilie
Can someone please assist me? I have so little time and want to explore the brokenheartedness of a servant that was wounded in battle and thereafter became just a handyman for one of the mighty and his wife and child. The child gave him his birthday present of a knife for a gift and the servant made an exquisite chair for the father against when he should return. I hardly remember that part but which book am I thinking about?
any help would be gratefully received. thankyou.
Okay, the story is found on the fourth page of 'Narn I Hîn Húrin' in Unfinished Tales. The servant was Sador called Labadal (Hopafoot) by Tûrin. Teacher Smilie You are quite welcome. Happy Elf Smilie
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