Thread: BROKEN HEARTS
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In one of Tolkiens letters he speaks about his deep sorrow at not being around enough for h is children. He said he had been a poor father and saw that hurt had come to his children. They had been the shining jewels in the crown he was making but he had not the eyes to see that a lot of times. He grieved over that I believe to his death. Not even not seeing his beloved Silmarillion treated as he liked hurt him the way that did.
But in the book she seems rather plain of mind and vision and not very inspiring.
However, that said, does anyone think that she must have had a broken heart at any time of Sam's abscence despite her seemingly being quite fine when he returned and talked to her that night?
I mean, if he loved her and she loved him and one day woke up and he was gone and she really had no idea why, don't you think even her little hobbit heart would have broken over the not knowing if he had found someone else or perhaps would never come back to the Shire again?
I am just wanting to hear other's thoughts on this.
I think they only noticed each other the very first time after that shortcut to mushrooms. And from what I understood, there was hardly any love at first sight involved. I think only after Master Gamgee's return, they really got to know each other, which culminated in conjugation.
I think they only noticed each other the very first time after that shortcut to mushrooms.
It was Rosie who always had her eyes on Sam while Sam had only just started considering her as more than merely their sister.
Just before the Battle of Bywater, Farmer Cotton knew Sam was interested:
'What about Mrs. Cotton and Rosie?' said Sam. It isn't safe yet for them to be left all alone.'
'My Nibs is with them. But you can go help him, if you have a mind,' said Farmer Cotton with a grin.'
Still later, when Frodo wanted Sam to move in with him, Sam was awkward and turned red:
'It's Rosie, Rose Cotton,' said Sam. 'It seems she didn't like my going abroad at all, poor lass; but as I hadn't spoken, she couldn't say so. And I didn't speak, because I had a job to do first. But now I have spoken...
I can imagine the Gaffer dragging his son all the way from the Cotton farm to Bag End on his left ear. "Lasses! Lasses! No good be them lasses!"
I just wondered, because it seemed that if they had feelings for each other it would still hurt.
'Hullo, Sam!' said Rosie. 'Where've you been? They said you were dead; but I've been expecting you since the Spring.'
What about Frodo... I don't have any quotes to back up my feelings but I sense that at the end of the trilogy when Frodo goes to the Gray Havens it is with a certain amount of broken heartedness. I don't think life turned out at all the way he wanted it to; he loved the Shire but was just too worn down to stay and enjoy it and I think he must have been broken hearted about that. Please correct me if I'm off base, this is just a gut-level feeling I have.
I am just past Tom B and am starting to feel nervous and despondant. Time to go jogging.
Whoa CraZy! I have very recently decided to re-read the trilogy again too! They have entered Bree and Frodo had that little mishap with the ring, now this sinister Strider character wants a word with Mr. Frodo.
His ghost appearing to Beren after being brutally murdered by Sauron's henchmen, is reminiscent of Hamlet. Or Casper, for the younger uns in here.
Oh yeah, and other broken heart would include most of the characters in the Narn I Hin Hurin, most of the Elves, and everyone who participated in the Battle of Unnumbered Tears. And that was just a brief sketch of the broken hearts in Tolkien's world.
Where did you get that from? I don't remember anything about ghosts in Tolkien...
From the Silmarillion.
For the same, have you never heart of the Oathbreakers? Paths of the Dead?
I think his heart was broken on different levels from the moment he was put on Bill the pony after being wounded by the Witch King and he looked at his friends and saw how sad and bowed low they were. It broke him. And although he had sometimes considered many in the Shire as foolish and annoying, the Shire itself was so dear to him and now he was not the same Hobbit at the end of it all that fell in love with the Shire. And to leave Sam (although temporarily) and Merry and Pippin behind forever must have been the ultimate breaking of his gentle heart despite the fact he was going 'home' as it were to Bilbo and the elves and Gandalf.
I love 'hearing' your voice. I wonder if we will finish at the same time.
Cloveress YAY YOU ARE BACK. I have missed you and worried when you were gone so long. How precious to see that dear little avy and hear your thoughts once more.
Vir you have convinced me to get busy rereading the Sil after I finished reading this. There was so much packed into it, I am quite certain I absorbed only a small amount into t his brain.
For the same, have you never heart of the Oathbreakers? Paths of the Dead?
Right. But that was only because they were cursed. Now I do not remember Gorlim being cursed. I only remmeber that he was called the Unhappy or something like that. And I agree with Leelee that you have inspired us to read the Silmarillion more thouroughly again. I seem to have forgotten more than I should have.
I seem to have forgotten more than I should have.
I seem to have known almost less than that I've forgotten.
Grondy you are too funny. pardon me but I must say hahaha.
Wild women eh Grondy dear. You are a walking best seller. Fortune will rain upon the person who gets to set you down on parchement with a good sturdy quill and a murky deep well of ink.
Oh, and yes! I know why I did not think of the Oathbreakers when we were talking of ghosts. It's because I've never really thought of them as ghosts before, since they were denied rest.
That's exactly what a ghost is, a soul that's denied rest.
and other broken heart would include most of the characters in the Narn I Hin Hurin, most of the Elves, and everyone who participated in the Battle of Unnumbered Tears
I think Narn I Hin Hurin is probably the gloomiest story by JRR. Everything goes wrong for all of it's heroes and the end is a bit pessimistic.I think Turin must be the character that suffers the most throughout JRR's work...
Yes upon further thought Vir perhaps, it is to me then like purgatory where you cannot go forward until the stain of sin is purged from the person and they can then have perfect peace and go and be with God. I am not sure. But since he was Catholic that must be what it was , a purgatorial thing.
gorgeous avy Nienor
Yes, but I didn't know Padmé Amidala was an Elf!
I was indeed speaking from the movie
Eh? Now that makes a whole world of difference, my dear!
You know dear Vir as I was reading away and noticed each time the poor travellers were given a tiny amount of Virumor to almost magically if you will dispel their fatigue and fear, I found myself thinking about how whenever things seem to take a dull turn you are always there to shake life and thought into us. I love it!
Or having come home to the Shire did that oneness slowly crumble and fall away again I wonder.
However, in 1484 SR when Merry was 102, they both retired, giving up their duties to their sons and rode off together to be with King Éomer when he died. Then they rode on to Gondor where they spent the remainder of their lives. These two friends were laid to rest beside each other in honor among the great of Gondor in Rath Dínen, and ultimately beside King Elessar at his passing in 1541 SR.
(There is a lot of information that can be gleaned from the Appendices at the end of Return of the King. In this case from Appendix B.)
But then it would never end and I would waste my life away looking up trivia instead of studying or caring for Hasia or all the other calls upon my life.
Do not worry, there are others who are more than willing to oblige to such a task.
That is why I have 300 monkeys continuously reading 300 copies of LOTR, the Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales. In 300 years, they'll make perfect Tolkien scholars for thegrand-grand-grand-grand-grand-grand-grandchildren of our current PT members!
Was that the reason, broken heartedness and the bitterness that must surely accompany it that made him go against reason,a sort of vengence upon the enemy on behalf of his father , or was that merely a military strategy that most soldiers would have chosen in such a situation?
That, together with the fact that there was no Gandalf the Wise around to make Isildúr understand that it was necessary to destroy the Ring so that Middle-earth would be safe for quit some time, until a new Shadow would resurface.
Perhaps Elrond & Co didn't yet fully understand at that point that the Ring had to be destroyed to utterly defeat Sauron... maybe they didn't yet understand how important the trinket was until the Istari arrived to guide them. So mayhaps we shouldn't be *that* hard on them, especially since without their oversights we would not have the story of LOTR in our bookcase.
Thankyou for this insight.
in my book pf 378 it says:
Tell me, Legolas, why did I come on this Quest? Little did I know where the chief peril lay! Truly Elrond spoke, saying that we could not forsee what we might meet upon our road. Torment in the dark was the danger that I feared, and it did not h old me back. But I would not h ave come, had I known the danger of light and joy. Now I have taken my worst wound in this parting, even if I were to go this night straight to the Dark Lord. Alas for Gimili son of Gloin!"
I don't like those bombastic, sentimental soliloquys of Gimli that much. It sounds like something from a medieval courtly love story, like the Lancelot & Guinevere romance.
As for Sauron I disagree. In the first place Vir dear one must actually in fact have a heart for it to break. He was heartless.
But one Ent ,Bregaland, much younger than many. He would stop anytime he saw a Rowan tree and stop, stretch out h is arms, sing and sway as he sang.He told of the Rowan trees that he knew and loved passionately , but birds became unfriendly and tore at the trees because of greediness. They wasted fruit, throwing it down. Then came the dark and dread Orcs who cut down the precious Rowan trees.
Bregalad tells the drowsy Merry and Pippin about it in song:
O Oroarne, Lassemista, Carninmirie!
O rowan fair, upon your hair how white the blossom lay!
O rwan mine, I saw you shine upon a summer's day,
Your rind so bright, your leaves so light, your voice so cool and soft:
Upon your head how golden-red the crown you bore aloft
O rowan dead, upon your head your hair is dry and grey;
Your crown is spilled, your ovice is stilled for ever and a day.
O Orofarne, Lassemista, Carnimirie!
'the hobbits fell asleep to the sound of the soft singing of Bregalad, that seemed to lament in many tongues th efall of trees that he had loved.'
So I think he was truly broken hearted.
So I think he was truly broken hearted.
I think he was just being hasty again.
I think the relationship with the Ents and Entwives though was not very deep in some ways. There simply was not enough love to cause both sides to find common ground. And though the Ents by Pippin and Merry's time were rather blue about the situation I personally think if any Entwives were still alive and not slaughtered they were living the free life of feminists!
To obliterate this peiorative connoctation, a better term might be Entettes or Entae.
As for Bregalad : there is no use crying over burnt bushes!
any help would be gratefully received. thankyou.