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Thread: Maia journey to Middle Earth?

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Two part question, but when/how did the Maia travel over to ME? I know a lot of them went over before Middle Earth was officially Middle Earth, but what about others like the Istari? Did they sail over? Just appear over here? This could also tie into the Melkor/dragon thread since, assuming he did use Maiar to create the dragons, since they didn't appear till the end of the 1st age, does that mean he called them over? He made the balrogs very early on with Maia who I believe it said were already there that Morgoth recruited into his service, so why wait 3000 years? Perhaps that's how long it took to breed the first dragons? Or he hadn't thought of it yet? So assuming they were brought over, how would they have come? How would he have contacted them? I know a lot of this is probably hypothetical, but thought I'd ask to see if someone knew of a specific text to answer this. Can't find much about it online and it never hurts to ask!
Great post Balrogs. I've often wondered about this myself.

I had in my mind that while "unclothed" both Valar and Maia would be able to travel in any form they liked, perhaps invisible, perhaps as great birds or as you said just appear. It would seem though that perhaps Tolkien had different ideas as always these beings would appear in their chosen form having Travelled that way, or seemingly anyway.

I alway find Orome on Nahar most interesting. Could Nahar gallop on water or fly?

I'm sure were in for some interesting ideas.

when/how did the Maia travel over to ME?

 

They were there before time began, Assisting the Valar to build Middle-Earth. In fact the first dwelling of the Valar was in Middle-Earth. If I remember correctly it was destroyed when Melkor attacked the lamps.

 

what about others like the Istari?

 

Gandalf sailed over the sea and made port at the Grey Havens. It's been a long time since I read about the Istari but I believe they all did sail there.

 

He made the balrogs very early on with Maia

 

He didn't actually make them. They just chose the form of balrogs and were in his service.

 

Regarding the dragons:

I don't think that the dragons had anything to do with Maiar. At least not the Maiar we hear about in the Silmarillion, with the exception of Ungoliant. There were other spirits that used to dwell around Arda in those times (Tulkas). I think that Morgoth bred the dragons and then bound a lesser spirit in to the body he had bred.

 

I'm sure there are texts that make the above seem foolish but my books are gone and I have not yet replaced them.

Sorry I should've been clearer in my frist post. I already mentioned the ones who were already over there, but I was unsure, mainly about the Istari, but also if there were any others (though I don't think there were) that came over that I was leaving out.

I know it states Gandalf "sailed" over in I beieive The Sil, I was wondering if there's any specific text that mentions the journey, considering at that point, after the fall of Numenor, it was impossible for anyone from Middle Earth to sail back to Valinor. So I was curious if the Vala had to open up a specific path or a special ship or something. I'm sure they did but I would like to have read more about it. But...Guess not. And to be fair I just used the word make, though you're right I should've used "inspired."

In regards to the dragons, you should check out the "If Melkor Could Not Create" thread. Some interesting discussions going on in there that might sway your opinion.

Also Ungoliant wasn't a maia. She was a "Tom Bombadil" type figure and nobody really knew what she was.

I know it states Gandalf "sailed" over in I beieive The Sil, I was wondering if there's any specific text that mentions the journey, considering at that point, after the fall of Numenor, it was impossible for anyone from Middle Earth to sail back to Valinor. So I was curious if the Vala had to open up a specific path or a special ship or something.

Or maybe the ship or the path wasn't special at all, but the spirit of Ulmo (and Osse) allowed them to travel to Middle Earth safely. I don't know.

I guess all of the Istari were in their Middle-Earth 'forms' during the journey. Sorry for the lack of source, but I think the Elves greeted them in* Grey Havens.

* is that the correct preposition? You know, I'm not a native English speaker, but I like to learn, so correct me, please.

Dear Indis, your Eglish is great. Infact if you hadn't said so I would have thought that it was your first language.

but I would like to have read more about it.

 

I've missed your question completely ^^

Let me suggest The book of unfinished tales, It has a whole chapter concerning the istari Smile Smilie

Sorry it took me so long Big Smile Smilie

I have read both UT and BoLT and nowhere (to my recollection, its been a year or two) does it specifically mention details of the journey or its means. We know the original istari "sailed" over and landed in the Grey Havens, but what about Gandalf the White? Certainly he didn't sail an entire boat across the seas by himself and then traveled all the way to Isenguard in the time span of, what, a few months? A year at most?

And so I guess my other question was answered in that there were no new maia between the early 1st age and the arrival of the Istari.

The first time i read the Sil i imagined it like; the Maia are seeds spread out by the Iluvatar the ones that were gathered up by the Valar became good and helped build the world. The ones that were lost and alone came to Melkor and served his purpose.

        Is Ungoliant a Maia? 

No Ungoliant is a mystery character. Not much is known about her origins or death. There are a few theories, but nothing is known for sure. She's definitely not a maia though. She seems to have come from the darkness of Arda at the worlds creation.

Also we need to remember that when the Istari came to Middle Earth, Valinor was no longer part of the physical world. The realm of The Undying could and can only be reached via The Straight Road, an invisible gateway that stretches to our physical dimension from the Valar's and visa versa. Perhaps Maia could use this "Bridge without the aid of Ships.

Of course this doesn't explain how Maia like Melian, Osse and The Valar Yavanna and Orome came and went during The Elder Days and earlier. The fact that Melkor could change himself into a thunder cloud and travel and move through the airs at great speed would say that at least The Valar could travel as perhaps as Elemental or natural phenomena.

Spirits/souls could travel to Aman. In the case of Gandalf, his physical body died. His spirit probably went to Aman and was sent back by the Valar and taken a new body.
Very true again Glorfindal. However it would have been Illuvatar who sent Mithrandir back to complete his journey, albeit with Manwe's plan.

I honestly think that all Valar and Maia had the power to travel physical distances in any way they chose. As wind, water, fire or by ship sailing through the airs of ME.

I have read both UT and BoLT and nowhere (to my recollection, its been a year or two) does it specifically mention details of the journey or its means. We know the original istari "sailed" over and landed in the Grey Havens, but what about Gandalf the White? Certainly he didn't sail an entire boat across the seas by himself and then traveled all the way to Isenguard in the time span of, what, a few months? A year at most?

How about Manwe's Eagles? I agree he wasn't able to sail all the way by himself, so there had to be another way.

Dear Indis, your Eglish is great. Infact if you hadn't said so I would have thought that it was your first language.

Thank you, Brego. You have no idea how often I have to rethink what I want to write, because usually not sure if I'm able to convey it properly Smile Smilie Too bad I can't spend more time here, so I could practice my English more often!

 However it would have been Illuvatar who sent Mithrandir back to complete his journey, albeit with Manwe's plan.

I don't think Illuvatar sent Gandalf back. He seldom interfere with Arda directly.

Well one could say that nothing happened in Arda without Illuvatar's intervention. But granted Eru didn't actually send Mithrandir back physically.

Glorfindel wrote: I don't think Illuvatar sent Gandalf back. He seldom interfere with Arda directly.

Ilúvatar did intervene here though, according to Tolkien in letter 156. In The Lord of the Rings Gandalf said that darkness took him, and he strayed out of thought and time, and then he says he was sent back: 'And naked I lay upon the mountain top'.

Since Gandalf passed out of time Tolkien noted that it was not the Valar who sent him back, but the Authority (Ilúvatar) rather, as the business of the Valar was with the embodied world and its time.

 

When Gandalf says “Bilbo was meant to find the ring and not by its maker” does he imply fate or is this the Iluvatar as well? To me this is important to the fate and to the creation of the Hobbits.

I think both. Everything that happens in the world was "meant" to happen by Illuvatar as it's all part of the music of Eru. Fate, if you will. However within that fate, the ring also has a way of finding a new master. So Bilbo was meant to find the ring in the sense someone was meant to find it because eventually it had to leave Gollum's caves in its attempt to return to Sauron.

So I think directly he was referring to the power of the ring to change masters, but indirectly referring to the fate of the world as created by Illuvatar.

 

It says somewhere that the ring did not expect to be found by Bilbo and Gandalf’s words to Frodo are meant as comfort. Isn’t the absolute fate of Middle Earth unknown because Melkor changed the song? 

Well thats what I meant when I said, "the ring also has a way of finding a new master. So Bilbo was meant to find the ring in the sense someone was meant to find it because eventually it had to leave Gollum's caves in its attempt to return to Sauron."

The ring didn't think to itself "Bilbo Baggins will find me." It thought "I need to get home so I need to get out of here," and Bilbo came along. So Bilbo WAS supposed to find it even if Bilbo wasn't specifically named. So it expected to be found, it did not expect to be found by a hobbit.

And I mean, nobody knows the true fate of Arda but Illuvatar. Illuvatar knew Melkor would cause the dischord even if he didn't specifically say what to do, which is why he let it happen. It is believed the end of days will come when Morgoth returns from the void. But nobody knows for sure, not even Manwe. So Illuvatar has shaped the fate of ME. He even has a "new" child to unveil that we haven't seen yet. It's already planned out. We just have no idea who/what/when/where/or why.

Hope that makes sense...

Melkor's dischord was part of Eru's plan. My reasoning for this is simply because Eru showed the aniur glimpses of the beginning, middle and end. If Melkor wasn't part of the plan then the end couldn't of been shown.