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Quote:
I wonder just for the sake of conversation, what kind of Ringbearer Déagol would have made if Sméagol had not murdered him. Can we presume that he would have been anything like Bilbo since he found it simply by chance?
Simply by chance?
Quote:
... Surely you don't disbelieve the prophesies, because you had a hand in bringing them about yourself? You don't really suppose do you, that all your adventures and escapes were managed by mere luck, just for your sole benefit? ...

From the last page of The Hobbit.
Once again we see the hand of Iluvatar at work in the fullness of time.

It is debatable what Déagol would have done with the ring had not Sméagol taken it, he certainly wouldn't have thought of making the journey to Mordor for its destruction. I like to think the ring would have had little power over Déagol and he would merely have kept it under a crystal cover on the mantle, next to the clock and the family photographs. Cool Elf Smilie
I sort of think that Deagol would have had the same thing happen to him as Smeagol...no matter how good a hobbit (or whatever) he was, it would have overcome him in the end. It might have taken a bit longer for Deagol to be Gollum-ized than it did for Smeagol, but in the end, it probably would have ended up the same way.
I agree with Chika, it would have got him in the end, after all he was just a little Hobbit with no idea what he was getting himself into, and he picked friends like Smeagol, so if the ring didn't get him, I'm sure someone else would have killed him for it.
I think Deagol probably would have been like Bilbo at first, but slowly over time the ring would have consumed him, just as it had begun to finally corrupt Bilbo.
Elf Smilie
Yeah I also think he would've been like Bilbo, but without the guidance of Gandalf would've ended up like Gollum.
We don't know very much about Deagol, except I think that Tolkien says he had good sight but was not strong. I think that the Ring would have definately eaten at him, but whether he would end up like Bilbo or Gollum or even Frodo is hard to tell because we don't know a lot about his intentions and personality.
He would have been an interesting gollum :3 I would actually Like to see a morphed pic of Thomas robins ( deagol) and see how cool he looks. I think he would have been freaky though. And he only had one logical line in rotk which was why? The rest was funny. ( I got a fish smeagol! I got a fisssshh!!!!!!!)
I don't think Deagol would've made a better Gollum. Smeagol seemed more psychopathic and mentally unstable.
With the advent of Time, even Bilbo, Frodo or Sam would have ended up just like Gollum. We are this briefly when Bilbo transforms when he sees the ring in Imladris. We see it also when Frodo demands the ring back after Sam saves him after his capture by the Orcs and also in Sams brief reluctance to give the ring back to Frodo upon his release. The ring would eventually win over even the greatest of Middle Earth. Both Gandalf and Galadrial speak of this and unfortunately Deagol would have ended up just like poor Smeagol.
Correct, Brego. Not much would've changed even if Deagol got the ring instead of Smeagol. Everybody who bares the Ring is eventually ensnared by it. The Ring basically possesses any who carries it.
The only reason Frodo actually destroyed the Ring was because of Sam. Had Sam not been there, he surely would've failed.
True Beredras, and Gollum as well....
Well yea, Gollum as well but I meant the only reason Frodo could get there mentally was because of Sam's moral support. Of course Gollum helped, but definitely not mentally and morally.

Beredras, I definitely see what you're saying but I'd have to disagree. I think both Sam AND Gollum were essential to maintaining Frodo's sanity throughout the journey. When Frodo looked at Gollum he could see a part of himself and knew that's what he'd become should the ring survive. By seeing it in others he was able to motivate him and give him the morale needed to trudge on.  Unlike Gollum, who in his loneliness hid in a cave and was eventually consumed by it, having no idea what would ultimately happen.

And like others have said it would be the same with Bilbo. The whole reason Smeagol ran away was because he didn't want to get busted for murder. So had he just discovered it, or had not killed Deagol when he found it, then they would've brought it back to town and shown it off most likely. Where it would go from there is anybody's guess. :P

In a way you are right, Balrogs (nice name btw). But also notice that as soon as soon as Gollum frames Sam for the Lembas being eaten things go wrong. Smeagol takes Frodo to Shellob were he then gets taken by the Orcs. Had Sam been there it would've been a whole different story. Had Frodo gone alone with Gollum the Ring would've consumed him before even getting to Morannon.

Actually Beredras that dispute never took place in the books and Sam was in Shelob's Lair with Frodo. Though I suppose regardless, even in the films, you saw what happened when Gollum attacked Frodo, then Frodo turned the tides and was on top of Gollum, who started saying it was the ring that caused him to do it, which brought him to pity because he put himself in that situation, understood, and let him go. Same idea.

I feel like seeing what he would turn into was a primary motivation for him throughout his journey. I know it would've been for me!!!

Oh it thought we were talking about the film. Never mind then. Well if we are talking about the books then yes Balrogs you are correct.
I*

My friends I say that you are both correct. But personally, i believe that Frodo ultimately failed. Now before you chastise me, Frodo was not able to destroy the ring in either the book or the movie. In both it was Gollum who ultimately destroyed it. In the book he stepped backwards off the edge of the cliff after biting off Frodo's finger, and in the movie Frodo pushed him off. In both instances Frodo claimed the Ring as his own just before its destruction, ultimately failing his quest. Even you must agree that in the movie Frodo attacked Gollum only in an attempt to regain the Ring. in the book he didn't have that chance. i humbly await your input my friends.

I agree there Durin, but I only agree about the book. In the movie it could've been that in that split second That Gollum took the ring Frodo could've realized his duty and pushed him off because in the movie I didn't see him attempt to regain the Ring. But yea bookwise I agree.

Actually Durin I've come to that exact same conclusion and could not agree more. However, it was still Frodo who carried the ring from the Shire all the way to Mordor. So alone that counts as a successful journey, much less destroying the ring itself. Sure Gollum was more or less HOW they were able to make it, but that was just this story. I wouldn't at all put it past Tolkien that, had he not ever thought up Gollum, they'd find SOME way to get there. Thus, in the grand scheme, Frodo was theoretically the most successful though he absolutely failed.

Now let's have fun with it. So if you think about it, everybody failed. Nobody was ever able to destroy the ring. The ring, from beginning to end, determined its own fate. So technically one could argue that it was actually the Ring itself that saved middle earth. It was the Ring that found Deagol and Isildur, the ring that led Frodo to claim it at Mt. Doom just as it was the ring that drove Gollum to attack him. So in either case all parties actually failed to achieve their goal, but the fate of the ring was that it would be destroyed in a moment of anger, fear, and fire, just as it was brought into the world. That must have seemed like a fitting time!!

Excellent point Beredras and Balrogs, with one disagreement; I doubt very seriously that the Ring wanted to be destroyed. Keep in mind that the Ring had the power to abandon its bearer when it pleased, that much is shown with Gollum. But i think that the Ring held onto the hope of being reunited with Sauron in mordor. When Frodo put on the Ring, i think it was the Ring's final attempt to reach its master, remember the Nazgul made straight for Mount Doom when Frodo put on the Ring? I think the Ring made him claim it in a last ditch attempt to allow Sauron to capture it. Then Gollum attacked and things went awry. Also keep in mind that even though they were never seen, the Valar had a hand in all doings and it may very well have been that they engineered Gollum's last act to reclaim the Ring as its ultimate demise. *sigh* alas, Mr. Tolkien is dead and no one will ever know for sure.

Oh I agree Durin. The Ring didn't want to be destroyed. But when it's a joint effort to destroy it it's hard for it to escape. As we can see throughout the whole trilogy is the attempts the ring makes to get back to it's master the Nazgul are one of these attempts. What I don't agree though is the Valar. The only Valar that I think did something were the Maiar. And out of those the Blue Wizards didn't really play much of a role in the War of the Ring. So the only Valar, in my opinion, that did something, sadly I can't say "that helped" because not all did, were Gandalf, Saruman, and Radagast. Radagast accidentally set up Gandalf. I don't blame him since, at that time Saruman was the head of the order, he was just following Sarumans orders. Saruman turned so he was definitely not a helpful Maiar. Finally Gandalf he was the most helpful of all Maiar. In my opinion the greater Valar don't really do much only the lesser, but, as Durin stated, we'll never know the actual case because, sadly, the professor is no longer with us.
Frodo failed his quest! It was smeagol that saved middle earth. Frodo slipped on the ring and succumbed to it, and if smeagol had not bit his finger off and fallen into the chasm when frodo tried to get it back, frodo would have left with the ring and the world would have ended! Why does everyone think the hero is mr big blue eyes!? All he did was carry it, smeagol destroyed it! I hate how no one gives him the credit he deserves for falling in! Smeagol destroyed it and smeagol is the true hero!

May he rest in peace. And i agree with you. Oh, am i the only one who believes that the Wizards should have actually done real magic? If you think about it, the Wizards never really used it. What a pity.

uh, that last post was in reference to Professor Tolkien. Smeagol, no one is disputing the fact that Gollum had a hand in destroying the Ring, I myself agree that he was essential in its destruction. The fact that people are disagreeing with is that Gollum was evil. Now keep in mind that Smaeagol and Gollum were two completely different creatures dwelling in the same body but Gollum ultimately won out. Smeagol was a relatively good being but again, if you dig into his history you will find that he was a liar and a thief even before the ring arrived and when he found it, the Ring magnified those traits.

Smeagol, Frodo carried the ring all the way you can't say that anyone in specific was the hero. To me all of them where Frodo was the carrier, Smeagol the destroyer, and Sam the one he kept everyone in line. So no neither Frodo nor Smeagol are the heroes the three combined are THE hero.
Sorry about all my typos btw

Not even noticeable Beredras! And I don't necessarily think the ring saved middle earth, but I do believe its fate was set in stone when it was created. Its attempts at finding its master, IMO, doesn't necessarily mean it had a brain of its own, so to speak. It had a fate, just like the rest of Middle Earth according to Illuvatar's great symphony. It didn't want to destroy itself, it's just that it already had. So to speak. So in a way, it was the ring that saved the day as it brought itself to Gollum, then to Bilbo, then to Frodo, then back to Gollum, who was destined to die with it.

But I won't lie....this is just wild speculation lol. I think it's plausible, but technically nobody is wrong.

I do agree about your comment with the Valar though. In fact, they were actually known for NOT intervening in the affairs of Middle Earth. Pretty much the only ones who would occasionally do so were Orome way back in the day, as in when Men first appeared, and his faithful hound, as well as Ulmo and Osse, both Valar of water so they had easy access to anywhere. I wouldn't say Ulmo ever intervened to the extent that it could be classified as "having a hand in," mostly just broad advice, though Osse did. But he was kind of a jackass :p

In my opinion the only times you can say "the Valar" intervened are when they came to ME to trap Morgoth and send him to oblivion and sending the eagles to save Beren and Luthien/Sam and Frodo. And Maiar are more like....demigods. The children of the Valar moreso than Valar themselves. I am a little unsure what you mean by Radagast accidentally set up Gandalf? Once the four came to ME, they more or less dispersed. The only ones who REALLY kept in touch were Gandalf/Saruman. Radagast kept to himself as much as possible, maybe with the VERY occasional word from Gandalf. One thing I don't understand is how they didn't see Saruman becoming corrupt. Even before he left Valinor he reminded me so much of Melkor (Morgoth before he was Morgoth), in that he always played devil's advocate and just had a menacing tone about him.

Anyways, Smeagol, I think most people do give Gollum credit for destroying the ring moreso than Frodo. BUT Frodo gets credit for bringing it to Mount Doom though, which Gollum sure as hell would never have done. But again, the fate of the ring is just that. Fate. So perhaps it was Illuvatar that saved the day, though he (she??) technically ruined it too!

Ok, for all you Smeagol fans out there, now i pity him. i saw the Hobbit and when Bilbo has him at the mouth of the mountain, his face made me wanna cry. He was soooooo sad and it was like he was utterly destroyed. it made me want to literally cry. So its official, I pity Gollum. My apologies to the people i may have been rude to in regards to him.