Musicimprovedme began this thread with the following post.



Peredhil replied

The reason Bilbo had the ring for so long without being noticed was that Sauron didn't know the ring still existed until sometime around the party at Bag End - I forget exactly when.
As for your second point, I think that it was Sauron's torture and being without the ring (when Bilbo had it) that really did the damage to Smeagol. He was torn apart by his overwhelming desire to possess the ring for 60 years.

That would probably be true, but it would be the same sort of invisibility that the Ringwraiths enjoyed. The ring did not so much make a person invisible, as placing them in a kind of Ethereal Plane which bordered the Plane on which Middle Earth existed.

That is why Frodo was able to see the true forms of the Nazgul when wearing the ring on Weathertop. By putting it on he had entered their plane.

Wearing the ring too much would stretch a person's life, eventually turning them into a Wraith (just as the nine rings given to Men had done to them). Once a wraith, that person would then be living in the wraith world (Ethereal Plane, whatever you like to call it) and thus invisible to people in the normal world.

I was also under the impression that using the ring would attract the Black Riders.

Sauron was not aware that the ring was not destroyed until Gollum was captured in Mordor in the year 3017.

This still does not explain WHY the Ring didnt wake up anyones awareness - I guess the Ring can't call your awareness without you already being aware the ring still exists.

Correct, Arwen, the Wraiths were Sauron's nursemaids so to speak, at his bidding, both helping him recover his strength and doing his errands that he cannot do without a body. So is it fair to say that if Sauron's goal was something OTHER than the Ring, that his Wraiths would have been looking for something else or involved in some other task?

A related question is: do the Wraiths go finding the Ring FOR Sauron, or does Sauron point them in the right direction and say Sic'em? Who would have had a better idea where the Ring is located? Is Sauron using the seeing stones to know?

[Edited on 24/2/2003 by musicimprovedme]

Thanks for your responses everyone, I think I get it more now, that had been a huge gap in the story for me, and I was just PRAYING that the answer was not..."well the Ring woke up when Frodo got it so that Tolkien could write LOTR!"

Anyway, this thread is for Bilbo and so even if I'm going off this Ring matter, I will stay on the Bilbo topic.

I love ol' Bilbo. He was wildly entertaining in the Hobbit...running around without his handkerchief! and answering the door for dwarf after dwarf and showing them all resentful hospitality...I LOVE first chapter of the Hobbit! He is cordial, treated people well and I think he was treated in kind by others. I thought it was especially poignant in the story when Bilbo was at the Council of Elrond and started on and on about who would take the Ring...that he knew what they were all thinking etc but he couldn't do it after all he had a book to finish etc...and he started to go off the deep end about it like a fruity old man. Boromir tried to laugh but when he saw the rest of the Council defer to him in quiet respect he stopped short. Tolkien's use of the other characters to show that Bilbo was more than just a fruity old man but had indeed earned his stripes among these people was nothing short of brilliant. It showed me that he had proven both his strengths and weaknesses to his friends and was welcome to be himself...they showed him pity, sure, because they all understood that the Ring had just worn him out (as much as anyone was going to let it) but Bilbo was also respected as a beloved friend and an honorable hobbit...whose obligation to the Quest was understandably and unquestionably OVER.

Maybe a large difference (certainly not the only one) between Gollum and Bilbo is just that...Bilbo had FRIENDS to intervene when the Ring was starting to show its effects on Bilbo wayyy before they conquered him...and those people saw that Bilbo was worth saving from all that. Gollum, on the other hand, was cast out by his family and left to his own devices with it to find himself a cave.

EDITING NOW: I found that passage, it's only two sentences and three lines of my copy of LOTR but it taught me roughly half of everything I needed to know about Bilbo, and I think it's worth quoting.



This passage is from FOTR The Council of Elrond, toward the end of the chapter. It is nestled in between Bilbo's outburst and Gandalf's reassurance that Bilbo is indeed off the hook...and I just love it.

Another huge sweet spot in my heart and lesson in hobbitry...is from the movie...and it's completely visual and personal for me, (probably wouldn't be as charming if they had done even a different take on the same scene). When Gandalf first sees Bilbo at the door before his birthday party, he stands back as if taking in the whole Bilbo, with his pipe in his mouth and cocks his head slightly with a twinkle in his eye and says so fondly... "Bil...bo...Baggins..." as if that's all that needs to be said! I just think that is so sweet. It's cool how Tolkien and in this case PJ used others' regard for Bilbo to show us what kind of guy he is.



[Edited on 25/2/2003 by musicimprovedme]

see? I'm not a complete PJ hater.

[Edited on 25/2/2003 by musicimprovedme]

That's really interesting, I would say it's true enough that the Ring can to some degree be used to accomplish what the user wants from it...for a while, at least. I tend to agree that Bilbo had a stronger will to withstand the Ring's influences, which helps define his use of it. So do you think that Gollum just let the Ring have its way with him rather than being snared by the Ring before he knew it?

Maybe I take for granted the protection and positive influences some people get in life. But I still feel that the ring, being only a part evil, can be influenced: note, not changed; just as it influence others. I feel wierd and somewhat like I'm treading into Boromir territory here. What happens when the intrinsic nature of "good" (possibly the hobbits, but more probably Tom Bombadill)meet the intrinsic nature of evil? Wel,l we all see that it takes one to know one at the end. Does that mean that evil will loose because its an enemy to itself? The ring cannot be altered. All the other characters can. It is this unyielding nature of the ring that snaps it in the storm. We all know the story of the suple plant surviving the storm, and the stiff plant breaking in the wind. Maybe it's not so much about good vs. evil. Matbe the whole point is to show the advantage of "flexibility" over stubborness. To me, Bilbo because he let go of the ring, Gandalf, for facing Moria and the Balrog, and Sam for leaving home. represent flexibility extrodinare. Everyone met w/ change in the end, But I think these three started their journey closer to their fears than all the others, bad guys included. And that recognition and resolution upfront makes those characters stand out to me.