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Thread: Gollum

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Well, that doesn't necessarily mean that you can hit anyone because you think you have the right to do so Wink Smilie Maybe we could say it's a bad thing, unless you're Gandalf Wink Smilie

In the end I believe that Gollum as the character was evil. His purposes, goal, acts were evil. But the evil came from the outside, it corrupted him. Like an unwanted guest, a disease. So I'd say Gollum was just sick, and unhappy, because he was a slave to the Ring's will.

So , after checking out this stuff, I realize that I am truly among some really knowledgable people. So does anyone here think that Gollum was a jerk? I mean I pity him after seeing his face in the Hobbit but he was a bit of an arse.

I don't think I would call Jackson's Gandalf hitting Jackson's Denethor 'evil' really... 

... but I do find it a very unnecessary bit of film violence [noting too, Indis' first sentence in her last post], and worthy enough of my making the distinction 'Jackson's Gandalf'.

It's not like the staff really screwed Denethar up. It's like saying that I'm in a store and I'm stealing something and someone see's me and smacks my head. He's teaching me a lesson, there's nothing wrong with that. Oh and Durin I do pity Gollum but that doesn't mean Gollum didn't deserve what he got. He was evil so he still deserves it.

But Jackson's character hits 'Denethor' directly in the face with a blunt instrument, then hits him in the stomach area [with this same instrument] with enough force to double him over... and as if that's not enough, 'Gandalf' next hits a doubled over Denethor [and an arguably already falling Denethor] on the back, putting him down.

Not to mention the expression on the actor's face (Ian M.) during the scene.

smeagol is that tragic character. he would more than likely repulse anyone who would have the unfortunate opportunity to meet with him. a bit like meeting a homeless drug addict. i believe he was inherantly twisted, selfish and self centered which is why the ring took such a powerfull hold over him. though i must say, he is one of the most unforgettable characters of 20th century literature.  

I wonder to what affect on the future of Middle Earth, Bilbo simply killing Gollum might have had?

I suppose it might have taken Sauron a lot long to figure out where the ring was and in turn Frodo may never have left the shire in the first place. One might argue that Sauron may never have found the location of the ring within Frodo's life time as it was Gollum who tipped off the Dark Lord in the first place by revealing the name of the one who stole it from him. If Frodo was able to stay comfortably in the shire for the rest of his life, without fear of the dark powers hunting him (for that matter, even knowing what the ring was at all) then when Frodo died at a ripe old age, what would have become of the ring? He had no heirs, no wife (though he may have changed that in later years) - might he have been buried with it? It's feasible to believe so, since the ring eventually takes such a hold on Bilbo that Gandalf has to nearly force him, sans physical force, to leave it behind. In this Frodo might never have wanted to part with it, even in his death. 

The ring does have a history of abandoning its bearer, though, but in the realm of the shire one might think it could only hope to jump from the possession of one hobbit, to another and another and hobbits don't go on adventures near or far. Might the ring have just been stuck in the Shire until many, many long years later, when Sauron decided to think outside the box and look everywhere else had had yet to look?

 

Faefillind Wanderer, you made an interesting point - how killing Gollum would affect a the story? Or shall we say - how killing Gollum would affect Bilbo?

There are a few things that come to my mind while I think about it. First is that Bilbo, would never kill anybody (even the unsavory, dangerous, disgusting Gollum) on his own. There is something in Bilbo that suggests that he's convinced he's putting himself in all kinds of adventures by an accident, and he thinks his role in all those adventures is also based on luck (and mischance). I guess he wouldn't want to do something as influential as murdering someone, he'd rather try to escape. I can't see him taking the responsibility of killing someone during a coincidental encounter, especially if he pities him.

So if he attempted to do so, it would be the result of The One Rings' power affecting him. If the power of the Ring would be as strong that it would lead Bilbo to commit a murder, I'm sure Sauron would found out about the Ring rather sooner than later.

Yes, Galin. I agree that 'Gandalf's wisdom' vs. 'Denethor's madness'  scene was a bit too harsh, now as I think about it analyze it - maybe just showing Gandalf in his anger (just like he did with Bilbo) would be better solution.

dont talk abot killimg gollum! he didnt deserve dying, or being tortured, no matter how much o an arse he was. he deserved a warm hug and kiss, not a thrust of sting, or a pit of lava! ahhhhh!

^^Slightly biased source :p

I was watching The Hobbit 2 days ago and at some point during teh scene in gollum's cave I thought: 

Maybe if it wasn't a hobbit - like Bilbo - but other creature - Gollum would win in this game? I mean - they are both hobbits, and they could knew those riddles before - they grew up hearing similar stories, similar jokes, similar riddles, similar games. Not exactly those particular riddles, but something similar, based on the same rules. Maybe there was a hobbit needed to win the challenge and take the Ring? When I think about it it looks like a part of Eru's plan (I keep thinking about LeeLee words when she wrote this, it's like the memory of "everything that happens is a part of Eru's plan" is now linked to LeeLee in my mind).

All i could think about was

: Oh wow. This is freaky! I mean, Gollum is happy and dancing around about a dead goblin to eat!

 

If it was another creature, then there wouldnt be any fun in that!

Gollum: We know safe paths in the dark- SHUT UP!

Bilbo: I didnt say anything..

Gollum: I WASNT TALKING TOP YOU!!!!!

 

 

Smeagol: TEEEFFF?

BEST MOVIE EVER>>>>>>>>>!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I agree with Indis, Gollum was evil but that evil came from an outside source, in this case the ring. Smeagol's past life was not evil, even though he may have done bad things, it was not evil in nature.

When it comes to evil, one can say that  Melkor is the only being that was evil that wasn't corrupted by an outside source. His evil was the result from being alone. Sauron was corrupted by Melkor and Sauruman was corrupted by the ring. The question I always asked myself is, was Melkor really evil? During the Ainulindale, Melkor corrupted it with dischord. But at the end it was needed the accomplished Eru's plan. 

I truly believe that the author himself wasn't portraying Gollum as purely evil being. I'd say he wrote Gollum as a lost soul, a tortured soul, maybe unfortunate and weak, but not a symbol of evil. Yes, Smeagol turned evil, but I wouldn't assume that Smeagol was like that from the beginning.

On the subject of "what if" conerning Gollum's death. Personally, I don't think it would've made that much of a difference in BEGINNING the doom of the One Ring. Think about it...what would happen whenever Frodo put on the ring? It would draw the attention of not only Sauron, but the Nazgul as well. Now do you think it was the realization that the ring might be in The Shire that made it so both he and the ringwraiths could just suddenly feel the power of the ring when used? Perhaps, but seems unlikely...

Now assuming Gollum hadn't been able to reveal Baggins/Shire, after Frodo was given the ring, don't you think eventually he'd want to try it on?? At which point, he'd turn invisible and enter the "netherworld," which Sauron could gaze into.  I don't buy the idea that merely the revealing of the Shire made it so Sauron could tap into it when used, when in fact I believe he had actually just gathered enough strength at this point to be able to feel the ring when it was used; Gollum's admission was just a faster way to figure it out. On top of that, I also believe Frodo would look for his own answers, which I'm sure Gandalf would hear about at some point, in which the normal chain of events from FOTR would begin...more or less.

Now once we get into TTT is where it's trickier. I've stated before that even if Frodo/Sam hadn't come across Gollum, I'm sure they would've found some way to eventually get to Mordor. Admittedly I can't think of how, but....I'm sure if Gollum had never existed they'd still be able to find a way. Point being, because this is a good guy story, they'd make it to Mordor eventually.

So at this point Gollum's death by Bilbo doesn't seem like it would impact the journey to that great of an extent. However it is at the destruction of the Ring that it would get interesting. Would Sam wrestle with him? Bite his finger off? Throw him in? Just let him walk out? Hard to say....though I'm pretty sure Sam's role in the adventure would be MUCH larger without Gollum. And in fact he just might be the one to throw Frodo to the ground, tear the ring off his finger and chuck it into some lava, or in a more....subtle Tolkien fashion try and grab Frodo who, when pulling away, would trip and consequently be semi-pushed by Sam over the edge. Thus destroying the ring, but still in a heart wrenching way. Hm...

I've stated before that even if Frodo/Sam hadn't come across Gollum, I'm sure they would've found some way to eventually get to Mordor. Admittedly I can't think of how, but....I'm sure if Gollum had never existed they'd still be able to find a way. Point being, because this is a good guy story, they'd make it to Mordor eventually.

I think Frodo and Sam would just get lost and go in circles. Eventually they would fight over the ring. One killing the other, transforming into Gollum.

So at this point Gollum's death by Bilbo doesn't seem like it would impact the journey to that great of an extent. However it is at the destruction of the Ring that it would get interesting. Would Sam wrestle with him? Bite his finger off? Throw him in? Just let him walk out? Hard to say....though I'm pretty sure Sam's role in the adventure would be MUCH larger without Gollum. And in fact he just might be the one to throw Frodo to the ground, tear the ring off his finger and chuck it into some lava, or in a more....subtle Tolkien fashion try and grab Frodo who, when pulling away, would trip and consequently be semi-pushed by Sam over the edge. Thus destroying the ring, but still in a heart wrenching way. Hm...

Since Sam hasn't worn the ring for as long as Gollum, I don't think Sam would be able to find Frodo when he is invisible.

While that's not at all an unlikely situation, it wouldn't make for a very good story. Too realistic, honestly. If the tale was solely about the power of the ring and was meant to be written more like a tragedy than an adventure epic, then that would be a great story line. However, I'm still looking at it more as a "good guys will win" type story that just happens to have had Gollum killed by Bilbo. Now what would be interesting is if they ended up killing each other over the ring and then ANOTHER unsuspecting adventurer comes along and finds it. But that would create an entirely different journey and I was trying to keep as much of the original intact as possible. Interesting to think about though...

Also I don't think Gollum could "see" Frodo when he was invisible. He just knew to look for the footprints, which since Sam has at least SOME experience with the ring, I think he is smart enough to have done the same.

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