Login | Register
 
Message Board | Latest Posts | Your Recent Posts | Rules

Thread: Is'nt a fail of the Elvs? (ironical chritic, dont read if....)

Is this discussion interesting? Share it on Twitter!

Bottom of Page    Message Board > Characters > Is'nt a fail of the Elvs? (ironical chritic, dont read if....)   
Ich verstehe die Meisten und mein Deutsch ist sehr schlecht. .. Big Smile Smilie
( I understand most and my German is very bad)

so if this were a German bulletin board I'm sure I couldn't say a single word!

I see you changed your mind. But not so fast! There is a difference.
You weren't alive in the 1930s. But Elrond was alive when the Rings were forged. So were all the Elves at the Council of Elrond, except, perhaps, Legolas (whose family in any case wasn't living anywhere nearby when the Rings were made).

Then the question becomes: do you blame a group of people because of the actions of a few, or even the actions of their leaders (a question that is still relevent today)? Or maybe it wasn't their fault, but they have a responsibility to set things right anyway, since it was some of their own people that caused the problem ?

I am still puzzled why Elrond picked a wanna-be Wood-elf, as opposed to more experienced and well-known and powerful elves, to represent Elves in the Fellowship. Maybe it was something as boring as the fact that he knew Legolas was heading home anyway, and for part of the journey he'd be going the same direction, so why not send him along? That is, to some extent, the reason Boromir was invited. But surely there was more reason than that.

It almost seems like Elrond sent the only elf who couldn't possibly be blamed for the Rings to help get rid of this one. Why? Why does Thranduil's son have to help clean up the mess of the very people his father rejected? Maybe Elrond hoped he'd be more immune to the RIng's lure than most elves, since he was raised to think Rings and Jewels and all that Noldor nonsense were a bad idea?
Quote:
Sorry, Nessa, I think the language barrier is coming into play. I wasn't taking issue with your comments in particular
.

yeah I think the same , but I understand you (I think mostly nobody understands me *g*) and when I look at the Writers forum............alles pallettie ( meaning: all right)

I not really disagree , then you cant change your past, and Okay The elves are not Eru! In this way yeah everybody can do mistakes, and Tolkien himself speaks from the fall of the Elves in many situations.

Mostly I remember the Elves not very *well* in the Hobbit. There they are loudly and in one way there are rude to there visitors.

But more and more it comes one thing in my minde.

I know it seams to be OFF-Topic, but read and then tell me *g*.
Okay I am from germany right? (Right) And sometimes , when I tell people I am from germany, you know what say tell me , Hei..Hi... (I am not sure , Is it alloud to write this things out?) Many people think when you say Germany of Hitler, Nazis, Holocoust, Second World War.........I now live with this, then many many people thnink, okay she is from germany.... she is a Nazi, she is the person who did this. It really hurts and I feel really bad when this happens, then we are not the only counrty who did mistakes..... who have Nazis.


now back to the elves..........the elves dont let this thing happen,
Okay they know over her mistakes, but they dont let the mistake of somebody other disturbe there life. They think over the problem, Elrond (some Elves) trys to help to solve the probleme.......nobody try to say something bad about it later on (they woud have discast this hole thing a lot bey himself I think), then they try together to help, they do and they did many fantastic things for the world, they are the teachers of the men. And many other *people* did mistakes.... you only grow with mistakes(it is a sentec in german speech)

I hope somebody understand me.................its hopeless my english is bad........but I hope as well that yopu notice I change my first position
Bey now

[Editiert am 26/4/2003 von Nessa]
Nessa: I understand your argument. I had to work at it, but your English was good enough for me to see where you were pointing. I can not debate with you, that will probably take someone like Musicimprovedme or Valedhelgwath to do.

I will say however, that you must not blame Elrond for not making Isildur throw The One Ring into the Crack of Doom. Isildur was physically a more powerful being than Elrond. Elrond wasn't really a warrior, he was Gil-galad's standard bearer and an advisor using his wisdom rather than his sword arm in that previous battle in the War of the Ring. With the deaths of Elendil and Gil-galad, Isildur became leader of the coalition and Elrond only an advisor. Leaders often ignore good advice to the detriment of themselves, their people, and the people of the world. Ignore Smilie (I mustn't go there.) Elf With a Big Grin Smilie

Because Isildur ignored Elrond's advice, Elrond has been slightly bent out of shape at the descendants of Isildur, feeling they are weak willed and only a shadow of their forefathers who were descended from his brother, Elros. Whether this is justified or not, that is the state of things when we meet Elrond.

Next, if we look at The Silmarillion, Feanor, his sons, and his followers (all those who took the oath and never repented), well Tolkien did sort of glorify their martyrdom making them seem more noble than those who weren't the kin-slayers that came to Middle-earth later. And in the end, they never did say they were sorry, they just stiffened their backs, thrust out their chins, and became all the more arrogant.

The Elves in their gullibility, were conned by Sauron who was silver-tongued, just as was Sarumen in the Third Age. Sauron pulled the wool over their eyes, just as Melkor had done in the time leading up to the First Age. Rather than repent for their gullibility, the Elves rightfully blamed the results on Sauron as they had on Melkor before him.

I probably have made some errors here, but I'm sure someone will correct me, and provide a better refutation or agreement to your argument. Cool Elf Smilie
Why didn't Elrond and Cirdan (who was also there, remember!) trip Isildur over the edge and save a lot of lives?

My theory is that it just didn't occur to them. Elves just don't think that way.

And also Isildur was Elrond's distant nephew. I can't blame Elrond for not being able to murder his own kin. And how would they explain Isildur's sudden dissapearence? "He just slipped" would have sounded a bit fishy.

Why didn't Elrond force Isildur to destroy the ring? (by grabbing him and biting his finger off or something)Imagine the political ramifications. Isildur was ensnared by the ring. He would have been enraged if anyone had forced him to destroy it. There would likely have been a war of Elves and Dunedain - not a war that Elrond had much stomach for, I imagine.

No doubt all of these possiblities occured to Elrond as they stood at near the Cracks of Doom - being the good leader and politician that he was - and he realised that there was nothing he could really do to physically stop Isildur taking the ring.

[Edited on 17/4/2003 by Allyssa]
Although they knew Sauron had betrayed them the moment he placed the One Ring upon his finger, and though they also perhaps suspected the Ring was able to control the other rings, at that point in time they perhaps did not fully realise just how evil the ring actually was.

With many magical items, it is not the item that is evil but the person wielding it. The fact the ring had its own personality, and that its existance bound Sauron to Middle Earth, was something they perhaps did not realise at the time of Sauron's defeat. Had Elrond realised the trouble the ring would cause 3000 years later, he may have urged Isildur a little more forcibly to destroy it.
Quote:
I understand your argument. I had to work at it, but your English was good enough for me to see where you were pointing.

Okay thats good for me ;-)
Quote:
Isildur was physically a more powerful being than Elrond. Elrond wasn't really a warrior, he was Gil-galad's standard bearer and an advisor using his wisdom rather than his sword arm in that previous battle in the War of the Ring. With the deaths of Elendil and Gil-galad, Isildur became leader of the coalition and Elrond only an advisor.

I was'nt looking at this point. I mean that Elrond is'nt a real warrior like Isildur and the others, quiet intresting. And in this case I remember that I read a statment from Elrond in which he says: In that moment that Isildurs father died, I stand with Gil-Gald and Cirdan and Isildur stand bey his father. So Yeah, I was'nt looking at the physically point.

Quote:
My theory is that it just didn't occur to them. Elves just don't think that way.


Mhm maybe ? Yeah I think you show me some interessting things over the Elvs. Its quiet good for me to read yor theory , its good to think.


Quote:
Had Elrond realised the trouble the ring would cause 3000 years later, he may have urged Isildur a little more forcibly to destroy it.

He didnt know how dangours the ring was?? I think he knew it. Then really, I was reading (new for me) that Elrond and Gil=Galad and the Elves of Lindon didnt *Talk* with Sauron, they didnt really want to deal with him. No when I am not wrong it where the Elves of Lorien, which make a deal with Sauron and he learnt them how to make rings. Isnt right that there where more rings, I mean more then the 9 and the 7 and the 3???

In this way I think
Quote:
The Elves in their gullibility, were conned by Sauron who was silver-tongued, just as was Sarumen in the Third Age.

but not the High Elves (not in the meaning of the race, in the meaning of wisdom and such things.) Then Galadriel and Celeborn as well know the dangerus of Sauron.


I thank you very much for your time, its very good for me, I was reading more in the books now and thanks to you I opend my mind!!!!
In this way thanks that you try to understand my english ;-) I really know it must be extremly hard!

Nessa
Quote:
Had Elrond realised the trouble the ring would cause 3000 years later, he may have urged Isildur a little more forcibly to destroy it.
Quote:
He didnt know how dangerous the ring was?? I think he knew it.
What I was trying to point out here, Nessa, was at the end of the Second Age when they had defeated Sauron and had the opportunity to destroy the ring, they did not know the Ring would be a keystone enabling Sauron to return. They had seen Sauron slain with their own eyes and perhaps thought he was gone for good.

When you look objectively at what the ring actually achieved in those 3000 years, apart from enabling Sauron and his Nazgul to return, it was really very little. The main concern was always the potential damage it wouild achieve if Sauron regained it, or if it fell into the hands of someone powerful enough to use its full potential.

I don't think Elrond realised the Ring would bind Sauron to Middle Earth like it did. Had he known back then that by not destroying it Sauron would return, I think he would have insisted Isildur destroy it. Further, I think that if Isildur had been privy to this knowledge at that time, he too would have destroyed it without too much prompting. Sauron had just killed his father. If he knew by keeping the ring, he was allowing Sauron to return, he would have got rid of it.

Yes, they knew it was a dangerous weapon, and yes, Isildur quickly fell under its power, but I don't think he used all of his will power to contest it. He thought he was getting a weapon. Had he known the full truth, I think he would have resisted the temptation long enough to drop it in the fires of Mount Doom.
Quote:
Next, if we look at The Silmarillion, Feanor, his sons, and his followers (all those who took the oath and never repented), well Tolkien did sort of glorify their martyrdom making them seem more noble than those who weren't the kin-slayers that came to Middle-earth later. And in the end, they never did say they were sorry, they just stiffened their backs, thrust out their chins, and became all the more arrogant.


And,in one or two particular cases,ran off with the Silmarils.As said before,it's not their nature to say 'sorry'.As Firstborn they would consider themselves above all creation,rulers of right of the Earth.

I think you all forget a small point in here.I think it wouldn't have been so easy for anyone to destroy the Ring(if not for the accident at Mt.Doom neither Frodo,nor Sam,not to talk about Gollum would have had the power to simply throw it off the cliff-not in 1000 years!).Elrond and Isildur and the rest were elves and men-Sauron was a MAIAR,and that presumes he had greater power than the other ones-his will was stronger than the will of any elf,man,orc,hobbit etc.Plus,remember the Silmarillion-Sauron,Morgoth's servant,was only slightly lesser than his master in deeds of evil.So I think it would be impossible to throw the ring with your own hand into the Fires,the will of Sauron that was enclosed in the Ring would oppose this act.
On the other hand,I think 5 persons were indeed able to dewstroy the One-but none of them got too close to it(except a certain Gandalf):Saruman,Gandalf,Radagast and the 'blue(s) brothers" Big Laugh Smilie .For to do such an act would require will above that of the Children of Illuvatar-and those qwould be the Istari.
Here's another thing people tend to forget.

The movie changed several things for dramatic reasons, but it weakened the logic of why the ring wasn't destroyed.

~If you don't know any better, you'd think Elrond was leading all the elves. He's calling the shots (lliterally). Dramatically it's better to get Elrond's face on the screen as soon as possible, and it would be weird to show Elrond in the background as this unimportant figure, then when we next meet him, he's the ruler of Rivendell, a name which even non-Tolkien fans know.

Only book-fans realize Gil-Galad is leading the Elves, and that Elrond is simply his herald. (but also obviously of some importance, because Gil-galad had already appointed Elrond as lord of Imladris). Still, Elrond is not of rank to tell a king what to do: he's just a herald. Cirdan isn't really either: he's just a carpenter! Also a lord of the Havens, of course, but not a king. Besides, whether or not they had postAuthorIDity equal to Isildur's, they did not have the jurisdiction to order him around, any more than Aragorn can give orders to omer. He can ask. But he can't dictate.

Admittedly if Elrond knew what was at stake-- that there was some trace of Sauron left as long as the Ring existed-- he should have thumbed his nose at propriety and destroyed the Ring. But I think Valedhelgwath makes the very good point that they thought Sauron was gone forever (and indeed it took a thousand years before there was the tiniest hint to the contrary). A dangerous Ring, without a wielder like Sauron, is a danger, but perhaps not much moreso than a Palantir. Or so they thought.

Also: when One was destroyed, the Three lost their power. Right? Bye-bye Mithlond. (Lrien and Imladris were not yet being guarded by Rings,)

~You must also remember the chaos at that moment. It was a terrible battle with huge losses, the end of a seven-year war. The Men had lost their King, but at least he had heirs. The Elves, however, had just lost their High King, the last heir of Fanor, Fingon, etc. That's quite a shock. They had to be debating whether to have a new High King or not, or if the time of the Elves was done. Thranduil, of course, was a king now, but a king of a decimated, primitive group of elves with no wish to have any further contact with the Noldor. No one would have accepted him as a High King, nor would he want the job.

Until that moment, the Exiles had always had a High King to unify them, for thousands and thousands of years.

So the elves had other things on their mind. And so did Cirdan and Elrond, the only two (says Tolkien) who saw Isildur take the Ring. Moreover, I wonder if Elrond was steeping in Ring-lore back then; he was younger and did not yet have Vilya. So it was probably up to Cirdan, a lord more used to building ships than making great decisions over the fate of Middle-earth.

~But most importantly, there is a very simple change between books and film that causes this whole problem! Cirdan and Elrond were arguing with Isildur in the spot where Sauron fell. In the book, Isildur refused to follow them to the Cracks of Doom. The only way they could have destroyed the ring was to grab the new King of Men and forceably drag him all the way up the volcano and throw him in.

There were probably a few thousand soldiers of Gondor who'd have a thing or two to say about that!

So in the book it makes sense. In the movie, the director decided to make the scene more dramatic and explain in simple terms where Frodo was headed. It's good to have a mental image rather than a vague "the Cracks of Doom" which is what my mom calls plumbers with pants that hike down.

Er, excuse me. Anyway, the movie makers wanted to show the final goal of Frodo's journey at the very beginning, and didn't see that it opened up the alarming necessity of giving Isildur a firm push.

[Edited on 4/23/03 by sepdet]
Elrond, son of Earendel, could have theoretically taken the role of High King. It normally passed to the eldest male of the royal house. I seem to recall reading that elves do not normally allow women to rule (have to get back to you on that one).

Elrond is also some sort of 'adopted' heir of Gil Galad, as we see by Gil Galad setting him up as Vice-regent and giving him Vilya when he died.

Elrond does not seem to be interested in such titles, however, and perhaps as Grondy said, there was no longer any real need for a High King.
Big Laugh Smilie Hey sepdet, ar first I want say something, then I think you mean me personaly and this is the secend time that you tell me such thing. I mean this sentence:
Quote:
Here is another thing people tend to forget. The movie changed several things for dramatic reasons, but it weakened the logic of why the ring wasn't destroyed.

I read the book, I have the book, I have the UT, the Hobbit, I have the Sil, I want to buy the HoME, I not LOOKING AT THE MOVIE / I AM A BOOK_FAN
Okay, I like your writing, its every time a pleasure (however you spell this ;-) ) to read it.
Quote:
you'll think Elrond was leading all the Elves

In this way I know that Gil-Galad is/ was High-King, but he is dead.And Galadriel and Celeborn stand much more higher then Elrond, but why have they alloud that Elrond marrige her daughter? He must be someway important? Do'nt you think? ;-) But you cant say that Elrond is nothing, he is important to, and he is important to the elves before the dead of Gil-Galad as well he is after the dead from Gil-Galad.
Then he is the son of (sh.. i forgott the name Somebody help me out?)

But Okay I think he is important to, then he build Imladris as the last stronghold against Sauron, when Dol-Goldur was groing stronger and stronger.
But yeah Okay they lost two Kings at ones okay yeah it must be traumatizing.

@ Valcdhelgwath: Oh yeah Okay now I understand, yeah, sure I was'nt thinking in this way ;-))))))))

After all I think raptor was saying a good sentence:
Quote:
It's not their nature to say sorry. As Firstborne they would consider themself above all creation, rulers of right of the Earth.


I go with this , it is maybe a little bit hard but fair at all. Bey then
Galadriel's heritage was such that she could have become High Queen; however, I don't believe there were that many Elves remaining in Middle-earth that they needed a supreme ruler after the war and Gil-galad's death. This was the start of the mass Elven exodus, off into the sunset, for many of the survivors of that conflict, now that their enemy Sauron was finally overthrown (so they thought.)
Sorry, Nessa, I think the language barrier is coming into play. I wasn't taking issue with your comments in particular.

I was answering a more general complaint that many people have made on this issue (including my own mother) that Elrond should have pushed Isildur in or jumped with him -- and that doesn't work for the books, for the reason I gave above. There was pretty much no way to drag Isildur up the mountain if he didn't want to be dragged.

I did not say Elrond was totally insignificant, (although actually he built Imladris when Eregion fell in the second Age, not the Third, but that's a minor quibble). But he is a herald. Admittedly when Aragorn came to the Black Gate, Gandalf was his herald, but still, a herald does not have the postAuthorIDity to give commands to a king, let alone the king of another people. All Elrond could do was advise, which he did, based on what knowledge he knew, which was that Sauron was destroyed. It seems to have taken everyone, even Gandalf, over two thousand years to discover that Sauron had returned.

Nor do I absolve the elves, the White Council, or Gandalf of all blame; they should not have taken so long to discover Sauron had returned. And the elves had made grievous and even evil mistakes in the past. I do not judge them all together, but individually, but I do tend to lean towards Oropher's viewpoint on that subject!

I see your point that Elrond should have taken the Ring himself, or at least gone with the Fellowship. The former would have been dangerous for the same reason that Gandalf and Galadriel were bad choices. The latter meant taking one of the Three away from the place it was protecting, and put two out of the Three rings in the same group, which strikes me as rash. Yes, he could have handed it over to Glorfindel, but I am not sure how easily a new Ringbearer learns to wield a Ring. Nor do I think it would actually have helped the Fellowship in any way to have two of the Wise on board. In the end it was the Unwise who achieved quite a bit.

Elrond maintains a refuge for the High-elves, as Galadriel maintains one for the Sindar, and Thranduil for the Wood-elves. Elrond's part was a defensive one. Gandalf's part was an offensive one. He was the enemy of Sauron. I think sending one of them, really, was enough.

But I can see why you might disagree with that.

[Edited on 4/24/03 by sepdet]
Hey hey sepdet Dein deutsch ist doch gut *your german is very good* ,
but okay back to the thema:
Quote:
I am still puzzled why Elrond picked a wanna-be Wood-elf, as opposed to more experienced and well-known and powerful elves, to represent Elves in the Fellowship


there are two answers for this question. And I know we spoken over this in the german forum, I have a look for you, then I cant really remember all reasons*g* Something with, he is young and so he can be friend with Gimli, and normaly he would have send some other elv, but Merry and Pip are coming!


To an extent I see Rivendell as being a retirement home for aged elves. Many of the ones living there are survivors from the First Age wars, and the strife of the Second Age. Most are ready to go back into the West. I think Legolas was chosen to represent the Elves in the Fellowship because he was young enough to want to gain his own glory; to be able to look the older ones in the eye and say he had done his bit too.

By the time of the War of the Ring, there were very few Noldor left in Middle Earth. During the first two Ages of the Sun, it was predominantly the Noldor who had fought Melkor and Sauron. Now it was time for the armies of Silven elves to play their part. Choosing Legolas would have highlighted to Thranduil that the War was now on his own borders, and that retreating into his woods was no longer an option.

I think also, Sindar like Legolas (particularly one who has been raised as a Silven elf) were more content with what they had than the Noldor ever were. I think Elrond realised this, and feared the ring would be a great temptation to any Noldor who was chosen to travel with it. His own two sons would have been ideal candidates to accompany Frodo where it not for this temptaion.

I think this is why Merry and Pippin were eventually allowed to go. The danger to Frodo was not so much the dangers they might encounter on the road, but the dangers from who travelled with him. Imagine the problem they would have faced if Glorfinel had gone with them and become corrupted as Boromir had become.
Nessa: If everyone was to learn from their mistakes this would be a much better world, but some are bound to repeat them. I know not why.

How many generations must the sins of the fathers be attributed to their sons? I say one is too many. Yet the Noldor were the ones to make the original mistakes and their ofspring are still kept out of Valinor; therefore, I must not be Eru. Elf With a Big Grin Smilie

When we learn from our mistakes and move on to make new ones, always trying to do better we grow to be better people. Angel Smilie

Mae govannen!

The mistakes of the past always come back to haunt the present. I don't want to get in a political or/and historical debate about WWII (actually, I don't even know if I'm allowed to do that!). Anyway, it's too sad to even remember; at least here. But, Nessa, you're right: the children should never suffer from their parents' decisions! They are different people, they can't be made responsible for the deeds of the latter ones! So, I don't think about you as if you were a Nazi, rather as a German, a fellow European and a Tolkien friend! (sorry if I don't make myself too clear, it's the same barrier language sepdet was talking about!)

As for the Elves, they also should not be considered guilty for what their fathers did. I must admit I've always envied them for their gift (immortality) comparative to the Gift of Men (Death). But, then, we go beyond the Circles of Arda, while they stay in Ea and are bound to its Fate, until the utter End So, I have to reconsider my position: their fate is a bit sadder than ours, don't you think?

I believe you guys already clarified the Elves' part of guilt in the Ring bussiness (yes, Nessa, the *g* word is "guys", if you are still wandering).

That's it, for now! Hope to talk to you later!

Namarie!
Well, see here, This just tells u a lesson that alwasys think about what kind of conciquences there will be after doing something. Elves are wise, yea but they are living beings. All living beings make mistakes too. Gandalf and Saruman are really wise but, they make mistakes too. Even Sauron makes mistakes sometimes. In the ROTK, the hosts of mordor knoced down the gaurding wall of Minas Tirith. wat Sauron failed to understand was that Rohan could attack better when theres more open space. That made Gondor victorious in Pellenore Fields. Just remember to think that elves are living beings. And all living beings make mistakes no matter how wise they are.


Alli
Of course, we all make mistakes, but in the end, I think it's the repentance that counts more than the actual degree of these mistakes! This being said, I don't consider Sauron ever having the slightest chance! I mean, can u imagine him humble? The Ar-Pharazon episode must have been more than sufficient for the poor Maia! hehehe

Namarie!
Quote:
Elves are wise, yea but they are living beings. All living beings make mistakes too.
IMHO the main reasaon Elves are considered so wise is that they are long lived, and in being, so they have had more time to make many mistakes and have thus learned from those mistakes what not to do again. That is the basics of wisdom.

Humans, on the otherhand being short lived, don't have as long to make as many and to and learn from these mistakes. Unless they are well educated, they never learn from their corporate mistakes, and even then, they are often compelled (or bound) to repeat those mistakes.
I have a few questions about the Elves. Orc Going Huh Smilie
It's not really related to this subject, but I didn't want to start a new topic for this. If these questions are silly and could be answered by reading the book again, please excuse me. I only read the LOTR twice. Read Smilie

I don't fully understand why the Elves are leaving Middle Earth. Elf Confused Smilie
Before the Ring is destroyed, I can understand. They were afraid Sauron might get his Ring back and would dominate or even destroy them. But why do they leave after the Ring is destroyed? Why do Elrond and Galadriel leave? Is it because of their Rings? Do they need their Rings to be able to stay in ME? And what about Legolas. He stays in ME for some time and eventually leaves too. Why? Do all the Elves have to leave ME when Sauron is destroyed? Do they have to leave because their task is done? And if Legolas can leave ME at a different time than Elrond, Galadriel, Gandalf and Frodo, why can't Arwen? Why can't Arwen return to Valinor after Aragorn died? Isn't she allowed in Valinor because she was married to a Mortal? Can anyone make this more clear to me? Wary Smilie

Thank you!
Quote:
don't fully understand why the Elves are leaving Middle Earth.
Before the Ring is destroyed, I can understand. They were afraid Sauron might get his Ring back and would dominate or even destroy them. But why do they leave after the Ring is destroyed? Why do Elrond and Galadriel leave? Is it because of their Rings? Do they need their Rings to be able to stay in ME? And what about Legolas. He stays in ME for some time and eventually leaves too. Why? Do all the Elves have to leave ME when Sauron is destroyed? Do they have to leave because their task is done? And if Legolas can leave ME at a different time than Elrond, Galadriel, Gandalf and Frodo, why can't Arwen? Why can't Arwen return to Valinor after Aragorn died? Isn't she allowed in Valinor because she was married to a Mortal? Can anyone make this more clear to me?

Well the Elves leave ME because after some time in ME they become weary of it. They are called by the sea. The High Elves who came to ME to get the silmarils back and stayed in ME after the war of wrath, have lived in Valinor and always long to go back to there.
The grey Elves who never lived in ME don't have this continuous 'longing' for Valinor in their hearts, but once they experience it, it cannot be stilled anymore --- for instance when Legolamb first hears the seagulls in Rotk.

Well Arwen could still have left for Valinor after her husband died, and Aragorn even suggested this to her or gave her this choice, but she refused to do this because she wanted to stay true to their love or something. So she stayed behind in ME and died.

Elrond, Galadriel leave after the Ring is destroyed because their work is done, i think. And because they don't want to see their homelands (Lorien, Rivendel) decay because the power of the three faded once the One Ring was destroyed.
They don't need their rings to stay behind in ME, but there is nothing there for them anymore : everything the Elves built and created would decay and go down, and eventually the call from Valinor to leave ME would become too high.

And about Legolamb : he only left ME after Aragorn died. I guess he wanted to stay loyal to the fellowship for as long as possible.

Well, i hope this post will answer your questions a little bit. sorry if it's a bit too confusing.
Gnampie...Im not sure if this I will say is correct but: I think I have read that the beginning of the Fourth Age was the beginning of the domination of Men. I think even Elrond may have said it that when the Elves powers fade, the fate of M-E will be entrusted to Men.

Mens power increases and so does their dominion and responsibility, whilst Elves powers are declining and their dominion too....their Rings have no more power.

And if Men were to attack Elves....well...lets just face it: Men are true warriors, elves are poofs Wink Smilie
hehehehehe
But if I may be wrong then people please correct me so that Gnampie doesnt get the wrong info!
Virumor's post is pretty comprehensive. The only part I will reiterate, is to emphasise that weariness Vir mentioned the elves felt in Middle Earth. In Morgoth's Ring it explains the reason for this. The Elven spirit or Fea is so bright it eventually burns away their flesh. In Middle Earth where they are not protected from the ravages of time, they do eventually fade away. Part of this was due to Morgoth spreading his own power into the whole of Middle Earth, corrupting every single atom from which it was composed (this is Morgoth's Ring).

UT tells us that during the Second Age Galadriel was already becoming weary of Middle Earth. Celebrimbor gave her one of the rings to overcome this weariness. She used it to effectively stop time in Lorien, while Elrond used his to create a refuge at Rivendell. These refuges were more than just pleasant homes to the elves. They really were a refuge against the ravages of time.

Once the One Ring was destroyed, everything created by the lesser rings also faded. Hence when Arwen returns to Lorien years later, it is just a shadow of its former glory.
Quote:
Why can't Arwen return to Valinor after Aragorn died?
Arwen's love for Aragorn was so strong that she desired to be with him when at the end of time, Men are to be brought to life again. At that same time the Elves in Valinor were to be released from life; thus, she had to become mortal in order to fulfill her desire.
Wow, thank you all very much! I think I see things more clearly now. But reading all this, makes me pity the Elves! I never realised they were so dependend on Valinor. They're not free at all! In a way this makes them weaker than Men.

The Elven spirit burns away their flesh? So does this mean their body isn't who they really are? If so, what happens when they come to Valinor? Or does it burn only in ME and not in Valinor?

Vir said the high Elves came to ME to get back the silmarils, but at the time the story of LOTR takes place, these are destroyed, am I right? So if the silmarils are destroyed and Galadriel is getting weary, why does she stay? Is it because they still have to destroy Sauron's Ring? If so, why don't they look for it.

I do like the reason why Arwen stays in ME. Talking about true love. *sigh* I Love You Smilie
Gnampie the Silmarils are never destroyed....there is one in the earth...one in the sea and one on Erendils brow.....Aul(myself Wink Smilie hehe) will tear up the earth and recover the Sil and Ulmo brings back the one from the sea after the final battle and then they will be broken and the Two Trees come back to life(after the death of Morgoth)

well at least this is how Ive interperted from other posts and what Ive read....I might be wrong but then again...I might be rightWink Smilie
Quote:
Vir said the high Elves came to ME to get back the silmarils, but at the time the story of LOTR takes place, these are destroyed, am I right? So if the silmarils are destroyed and Galadriel is getting weary, why does she stay? Is it because they still have to destroy Sauron's Ring? If so, why don't they look for it.

Galadriel is the last of the Noldor who came with Fingolfin to Beleriand in the first age to get the Silmarils back. She isn't allowed to come back yet. Only after she rejects the Ring from Frodo in the Mirror of Galadriel chapter in Fotr (BOOK Tongue Smilie ) she is allowed to return. (Return of the Queen heh)

Like Aule previously posted, the Silmarils weren't destroyed. One was thrown in a fiery chasm, one was thrown into the Sea and one was placed on Earendil's brow.

About the Elven bodies : their spirits are indeed burning like fire. In Fotr book, Frodo sees a shining person at the Fords of Bruinen before he goes unconscious : Glorfindel (High Elf). About their bodies fading etc : i never put much trust in this since it isn't in LOTR and the Sil.

In the Sil, we only read that Feanor's body burns after his slaying. And besides, Cirdan lived in ME since the moment he awoke in Cuivienen until the moment the last Elf parted and his body never burnt although he was very weary of ME -- the only sign of his weariness was that he looked old, he had a beard.

[Edited on 27/11/2003 by virumor]
Oh, I see!
Thanks for clearing this up for me, Vir and Aule.
So the line 'I passed the test' makes more sense now.
I should really read the Sil, I guess.
Quote:
Cirdan lived in ME since the moment he awoke in Cuivienen
Where did you find this, Vir? It is something that I would like to believe, but I'm sure I read another post somewhere in which someone quoted that he had parents or was kin of someone. I've never managed to find anything myself that has actually given me a satisfactory answer.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Found it... Tauron wrote in the Cirdan the Shipwright thread
Quote:
Although there is no doubt that Crdan is the oldest elf we meet in the LotR, shows that while Crdan may have been born at Cuivienen, he was most probably not one of the original Elves who 'awoke' there.

The 'Unbegotten' (Elves who originally awoke) awoke each with their respective spouse (hence 144 Elves in 72 pairs). Elw had to wife Melian and she did not awaken at Cuivienen. Elw also had two brothers Olw and Elmo, hence he had parents. Crdan was 'akin' to Elw and Olw but was their junior (else He would be King of the Teleri) so is likely not of the 'Unbegotten'. He also seems not to have had a spouse. For completeness, Finw had to wife Mriel. Mriel had a mother name (Serind ), and hence a mother. Thus Mriel was born, hence Finw did not 'Awaken'. Ingw had a sister (Indis or Indis' mother) and hence had parents, thus he was born and not Unbegotten.


[Edited on 27/11/2003 by Valedhelgwath]
But Val in Taurons post it says that Finw and Ingw and Elw were not awaken...which makes no sense since they DID awake in Cuivienen...Even Elw said himself(or so I remember) to the dwarves that he had awoken in Cuivienen before the stunted people (So Angry Smilie the word most of the elves used for the dwarves) ever were made.....anyway....I do believe that Virumor was right....since Tauron had errors in his post Smoke Smilie
I've based my posts on the Silmarillion. It's stated in the Silmarillion that Elwe and Ingwe and Finwe are awoken at Cuivienen.

About Cirdan's age, i am not sure whether this is mentioned in the Sil but i think so. Anyway, i am pretty sure it is mentioned in UT.

[Edited on 29/11/2003 by virumor]