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Thread: What is Sauron?

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gandalf somewhere, in the book, said that sauron was too powerful for him to face although gandalf was olorin, himself a mair if i'm not wrong. and the mair were peer maybe not all having the same powers but i think having the same overall stenght.

Sauron is more powerful than Gandalf the Grey (I'm not so sure about Gandalf the White), but this does not matter anyway, since the Istari were not allowed to face Sauron directly but were merely guides of the Free Peoples of Middle-earth in their strife vs Sauron.

But even though Sauron was that powerful, he was still defeated at the height of his powers by Húan and later by Elendil and Isildúr.

We do have a huge thread about Sauron somewhere around here, but I forget where it is stowed now.
Indeed Sauron was more powerful than Gandalf the White, even without the Ring where most of his power lay:

"Dangerous!' cried Gandalf. 'And so am I, very dangerous: more dangerous than anything you will ever meet, unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord."

However if the we scaled out a bit to the terms of different power differences between all the ainur then they were pretty much equal for it does state somewhere (cannot find the quote as yet) that Olorin was sent to contend with Sauron as 'his equal, just as Manwe was to Melkor. But in both instances the Dark Power is greater in power to the Light power.

yes i agree that he was defeated by huan but you forgot one thing: this was a decree of the valar and wowen with the fate of the silmaril which is a much greater power.

also concerning sauron being defeated by isildur (i will not say elendil because he was already dead then) i cannot be sure how it happened considering the fact that the only damage isildur did to him was to cut his finger and it might have been luck or not.

but still as gandalf said towards the end of LOTR all these great events as we perceive them may be only a small part of the fate writen for arda by illuvatar. we shall never know...
My bad, I meant to say Elendil and Gil-galad. Isildúr merely cut off the Ring from Sauron's finger after all work had been done.
and there something i wanted to know. gandalf or galadriel said that the ring gives power according to stature. does that mean that the ring has unlimited power of is sauron's power distributed according to stature?
The Ring gives power up until it maximum output - however much of Sauron was put into it. If it had unlimited power then why would Sauron be defeated by Ar-Pharazon and his hosts from Numenor?
Wasn't Sauron's "defeat" by Ar-Pharazon before the creation of the Ring, when Sauron was still fair to look at? And I agree with Vir. The Istari were of the same rank as Sauron. But they were not going to lord it over the people of ME, even by contending directly with the Enemy. One could argue that the power of the Maiar was not meant for domination at all--Sauron had warped that as well as much in ME. So the Istari were given a more subtle approach, even though it meant personal sacrifice on their own part, such as Gandalf's fall in Moria. In the end, Gandalf proved that Manwe's mission was the wisest, and that great power ill-gained can be lost.
Firstly no, Sauron had forged the Ring a fair while before Ar-pharazon attempted to contend with Sauron (remember in the Sil it says that after the downfall of Numenor 'Sauron took up his great Ring again').

Secondly it would not matter. Sauron was as powerful before he made the Ring as he was afterwards. The Ring is only powerful becuase Sauron's own will was in it. Once he forged the Ring it did not make him more powerful it simply allowed him to dominate the lessar Rings becuase there making is all interconnected.
When the Ring is taken away from him he loses the Power HE PUT INTO IT, not additional power the Ring gives to him.
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Sauron is more powerful than Gandalf the Grey (I'm not so sure about Gandalf the White), but this does not matter anyway, since the Istari were not allowed to face Sauron directly but were merely guides of the Free Peoples of Middle-earth in their strife vs Sauron.

It was once said in Unfinished Tales that Gandalf's power was mostly in intelligence and knowledge, I believe it even states he was one of the most powerful, if not the most powerful, of the Maia when it came to that aspect. As for physical dominance and power in battle I'm sure GAndalf could hold his own, but i wouldn't be surprised if Sauron bested him in a fight.

Hey i was reading the 1st page of this thread, which took place a couple years ago, (when we use to have nice, lengthy, intelligent debates) and that was quite the debate we were having about Sauron's physical form.

One side argued he was a humorous giant floating eye, and the other side (the winning side) said that was ridiculous and the giant eye was more of a mental manifest form. What is he gonna do? Stare you to death?

For instance when Frodo saw The Eye it was Sauron concentrating his will upon Frodo and since Sauron's vision was upon Frodo, Frodo then perceived the Sauron's will bent upon him. What better way to let someone know you're watching them than to show you their giant eye? I do that all the time to people!
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Gandalf-Olorin The Istari were of the same rank as Sauron. But they were not going to lord it over the people of ME, even by contending directly with the Enemy. One could argue that the power of the Maiar was not meant for domination at all--Sauron had warped that as well as much in ME.

I Agree it wasn't the Istari's or Maiar's job to command things towards their will, however what about Saruman? Many people do things they aren't suppose to do, but they do it anyways. It is usually only those that have strong will power and control whom are the ones who stick to their goals.

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Lord of AllOlorin was sent to contend with Sauron as 'his equal, just as Manwe was to Melkor. But in both instances the Dark Power is greater in power to the Light power.

I wouldn't neccessarly say the Dark power is greater than the Light. When the Valar were 1st created wasn't Melkor always the strongest of them all? At that time I wouldn't consider him Dark then. Did he not truly turn Dark until the making of the music? or when he entered Arda?
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Hey i was reading the 1st page of this thread, which took place a couple years ago, (when we use to have nice, lengthy, intelligent debates) and that was quite the debate we were having about Sauron's physical form.

One side argued he was a humorous giant floating eye, and the other side (the winning side) said that was ridiculous and the giant eye was more of a mental manifest form. What is he gonna do? Stare you to death?

Yes, that was the thread I was referring to earlier. It was full of great research and quotes... it should be around here somewhere.

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When the Valar were 1st created wasn't Melkor always the strongest of them all?

He shared in all aspects of Ilúvatar's mind whilst his brethren shared in only one aspect, and indeed originally he was bestowed the greatest amount of power, yet since his power was dispersed throughout the first ages of Arda he became far less powerful so that even a tiny lil Elf was able to hold his own against "His Darkness" pretty well.

But even so, since he shared in many aspects of Ilúvatar's mind and not in one, he was not superior to any of the Valar in their own field - which is why Tulkas Astaldo sent him fleeing in fear when he came to the aid of his brethren, and later on humiliated him and threw him on his face during the War of the Valar : because Melkor could not beat Tulkas in his field, just like any of the other Valar would (does anyone else picture Tulkas as Hulk Hogan?).

For the same, though, since he shared in so many aspects, the Valar combined couldn't drive him out of Arda until Tulkas's arrival, so it seems that indeed he was lacking in the field of might/combat - again note how troublesome Fingolfin proved to be for him.
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Virumor
again note how troublesome Fingolfin proved to be for him.

noted.

But what about my other statement? Was Melkor always 'Dark' from the very first moment?
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I wouldn't neccessarly say the Dark power is greater than the Light. When the Valar were 1st created wasn't Melkor always the strongest of them all?


Melkor was the most Powerful of all the Ainur. In deed he was originally more powerful than all the Valar put together (excluing Tulkas):

"It is told among the wise that the First War began before Arda was full-shaped, and ere yet there was any thing that grew or walked upon earth; and for long Melkor had the upper hand. But in the midst of the war a spirit of great strength and hardihood came to the aid of the Valar, hearing in the far heaven that there was battle in the Little Kingdom; and Arda was filled with the sound of his laughter."

This quote does not mean that Tulkas was more powerful than Melkor. It simply means that Tulkas was the straw that broke the camels back so to speak.

But as time went on Melkor's might did disperse and decrease but, contrary to Vir's remark, he was still the most Powerful of all beings in Ea even nearing the end of his reign:

"That was the last time in those wars that he passed the doors of his stronghold, and it is said that he took not the challenge willingly; for though his might was greatest of all things in this world, alone of the Valar he knew fear." (The challenge of Fingolfin)

So as we see this quote comes from later on in the First Age, after Melkor had dispersed alot of his power. He could no longer hold back all the Valar but if Manwe, say, was alone without aid and as was Melkor, then there would only be one victor. The same applies also to Olorin and Sauron.

That is not to say Darkness is greater than light becuase there is alsways the One being who is above Melkor and that is what keeps evil in check.

As to when Melkor first became evil it is difficult to estimate. He was not evil in the VERY beginning but he did have an impatient side that made him feel annoyed with the emptiness of The Void. Thus he sought for the Flame Imperishable alone and it is at this very point he first develops his dark designs but he does not know that he is actually 'evil' as yet. It was these first Dark thoughts that he wove into his Music, creating he 'Discord of Melkor' (the thing that sowed evil into the making of the first Arda).
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But what about my other statement? Was Melkor always 'Dark' from the very first moment?

I think that is food for another thread. Check out the Melkor/Morgoth/Eru's thoughts threads.
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Grondy
...enabled the destruction of the Ring via the ultimate sacrifice by Gollum.

Hahaha, ya sure... sacrifice! =P

Isn't the definition of sacrifice: "The surrender or destruction of something prized or desirable for the sake of something considered as having a higher or more pressing claim."

It'd be nice to think Gollum sacrificed himself and the ring for greater good, but it was more like #1 from the ''Top 10 Show Boasting from the 3rd Age Gone Horribly Wrong". Stay tuned next week for the "Top 10 Arrogant Elves of the 1st Age".
The one who made Gollum fall into Mount doom was Iluavatar:

"Frodo deserved all honour because he spent every drop of his power of will and body, and that was just sufficient to bring him to the destined point, and no further. Few others, possibly no others of his time, would have got so far. The Other Power then took over: the Writer of the Story (by which I do not mean myself), 'that one ever-present Person who is never absent and never named'."- 192 From a letter to Amy Ronald 27 July 1956
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The one who made Gollum fall into Mount doom was Iluavatar

I wouldn't put it as that. That sentence puts forward the notion that everything was already written down by "fate" and the characters were mere pawns. And since I do not believe in the concept of fate, I wouldn't believe Gollum's fall to be pre-destined. Maybe he tripped, or he might have stumbled on the edge. But you can't say that Gollum was "made to fall" by someone.
Your theory is understandable but not possible. It says 'The other Power TOOK OVER' - the other power then came into play. It means that Iluvatar had to then act then and there. It does not mean it was merely Eru's doing from long ago.
i agree with lord aragorn. i don't think gollum was pushed by illuvatar

remember that when frodo first told gandalf that gollum deserved death gandalf had said "i daresay he does. many that live deserve death. and some that die deserve life. can you give it to them. then do nnot be too eager to deal out death in judgement."

gandalf was sent by the valar who were themselves under the yoke of illuvatar. and someone who said something like that i don't thing that illuvatar would have done something like that because doesn't all the wisdom of both the valar and mair come from himself?
It all comes down on how one interprets "took over". One can interpret it literally as a hand of Eru, but I myself would interpret it as a possibility that already had been set from the very beginning, coming into effect.
I can only provide the quote guys. How you interpret it is up to you. Generally considered this quote means that Iluvatar DID push gollum into the Fire.
Perhaps at the time Gandalf said it, Gollum may have had a small chance at redeeming himself, and he did for a time. But clearly the Ring was now too interwoven with Gollum for him to change permanantly and we can see that by the time of Gollum at Mt Doom he was pretty much utterly wretched and passed all redmeption. Thus is why Iluvatar pushed him into the Fire. It was either that or suffer Frodo revealing of the Ring to Sauron and therefore the ruin of Middle-earth becomes inevitable.
If I was Iluvatar I would put Middle-earth and all the good lives in it over one wholly wretched delapidated frog.

(Vir - I do not mean litterally that Gollum found a large hand egging him towards the fire. I mean that Iluvatar's will simply made him fall. Iluvatar pushed him by no means detectable to Gollum)
He knows Lord of All, he was metaphorically speaking. Wink Smilie
I see... Rolling Eyes Smilie
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Generally considered this quote means that Iluvatar DID push gollum into the Fire.

The rascal! Which rock did he crawl under from?

This is verily a deus ex lapide.
Well there is that quote where Sam shouts 'He's behind you!' to Gollum...
Iluvatar made that tiny stone that just happened to be hung up on a grain of sand that was crushed when Gollum stepped on it allowing the stone to slip down a two inch high slope far enough that Gollum lost his balance and fell. The hand of Eru was only an metaphor for an act of god via the least of infinitesimal geological events. Teacher Smilie
But Gollum didn't lose balance at all. He was so happy he got his Preciousss back that he accidentally stepped on thin air.

One could consider this either blind luck, or a hand of Eru.
The quote seems to indicate the latter...
In your interpretation, perhaps.

Why is it so hard for you to understand that not everyone shares the same opinion/interpretation as you? Why do you insist on trying to impose your own viewpoints on others, instead of accepting other ppl's opinions?

Discussion is not about trying to impose your own views on others, or proving other people wrong. It is about exchanging and sharing ideas.
I do not impose my view on others. I simply provide them with the quotes, give my own opinion on them and then allow others to interpret them as they will.

However some quotes are conclusive. If I -or you- provided a quote stating that Frodo was 4 foot tall exactly and then someone comes along and contradicts that without any evidence then that is obviously wrong. I would state so but I would not keep on ramming it down there throats.
I'm still sticking to the theory i posted a day or 2 ago, and i quote...

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it was more like #1 from the ''Top 10 Show Boasting from the 3rd Age Gone Horribly Wrong". Stay tuned next week for the "Top 10 Arrogant Elves of the 1st Age".
What is the meaning of that Turin?
well i was referring to Gollum and how his show boasting went horribly wrong. The 2nd part was just a joke, gone horribly wrong.

I've been reading LOTR again and now I'm starting to change my opinion about Sauron and The Eye of Sauron. I still believe Sauron manifested back into a more human shape and not a Giant eye, as there is evidence in this when Gollum is being tortured by Sauron for information on the where abouts of the ring and Gollum mentions his one hand only has 4 fingers, a reminder for him of his loss, however, I now believe there was also a giant eye, like a telescope for Sauron, a separate entity from Sauron but yet a part of him.
I'm too lazy to look up and place a quote for when Gollum claims to have seen Sauron and his 4 fingers, any feel free to insert the quote plus book and page # please.

When you read the LOTR through out the 3 books it gives evidence that a single eye also existed, and also when it is mentions how Sauron sees all the word 'eye' isn't plural.
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ROTK P.179In wisdom or great folly it has been sent away to be destroyed, lest it destroys us. Without it we cannot by force defeat his force. But we must at all costs keep his Eye from his true peril.

Notice how 'Eye' is not plural and is capitalized. Tolkien was a professor in literature so it's safe to say he didn't make a grammar mistake there.

We all know the orcs from Mordor bear the sign of the Lidless Eye, have they always bore that sign before the first destruction of Mordor, before Sauron was destroyed?

Even further evidence proves that there was a giant Eye.
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ROTK P.261
One moment only it stared out, but as from some great window immeasurably high there stabbed northward a flame of red, the flicker of a piercing Eye; and then shadows were furled again and the terrible vision was removed. The Eye was not turned to them: it was gazing north to where the Captains of the West stood at bay...

So there is evidence that states Sauron did manifest into something similar to the form he bore before the ring was cut from his finger, and there is also evidence for the Eye being a physical entity. I that the both of the following are true and the Eye is a tool the Sauron uses to see from a far.
So, I tried to read all of the previous stuff posted on this thread, but I only had about twenty minutes, so I had to scan quite a bit...So don't skewer me if I'm repeating anything already said!! Elf With a Big Grin Smilie
Ok, with that said...here's my own odd theory.
I've always wondered about the Mouth of Sauron. Wher the heck did he come from. I read somewhere that it is some pitiful twisted creature, manipulated by Sauron for this exact purpose, and ...I've wondered how much control Sauron has over it. Is it just like an extension of himself??
This led to The Eye. Sauron needed something to watch over the palantir for him at all times. Could he have created an Eye, much like his Mouth, that fed him information and left him free to search for the Ring through other methods and to prepare for war? Could the Eye be a 'seperate' entity from Sauron, created solely to look and intimidate?
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Sauron needed something to watch over the palantir for him at all times. Could he have created an Eye, much like his Mouth, that fed him information and left him free to search for the Ring through other methods and to prepare for war? Could the Eye be a 'seperate' entity from Sauron, created solely to look and intimidate?

That makes more sense than Sauron shaping himself in the form of a huge Eye, tossing and turning on top of the Dark Tower.

I still think the Eye is just a kind of lens or transcendental telescopic window, though.
Here is some quotes that may help:

"And if he often uses the Ring to make himself invisible, he fades: he becomes in the end invisible permanently, and walks in the twilight under the eye of the dark power that rules the Rings."
LOTR, FOTR

"So terrible was it that Frodo stood rooted, unable to cry out or to withdraw his gaze. The Eye was rimmed with fire, but was itself glazed, yellow as a cat's, watchful and intent, and the black slit of its pupil opened on a pit, a window into nothing."
LOTR, FOTR

"Yes,' she said, divining his thought, `it is not permitted to speak of it, and Elrond could not do so. But it cannot be hidden from the Ring-bearer, and one who has seen the Eye."
LOTR, FOTR

The second quote is clearly giving a PHISICAL description of the Eye. If the Eye of Sauron was merely Sauron's will looking out via his Palatir then how could there be a PHISICAL description of it???
Secondly the third quote - It states that Frodo has seen The Eye from many leagues away. If that is possible then there must be something PHISICAL as opposed to metephorical, thing to see.

Now before anyone gets this wrong I have merely provided an analogy - I have not stated my opinion of the matter.
Perhaps someone knows some much better quotes that come from Revised editions?
I think if you take the time to read the first posts of this thread, you'll find that more than enough has already been said about this matter, completely with quotes from JRRT himself, and the ones posted by yourself and more are already there.

*drags away the dead horse and replaces it with a sleeping dog*
I'm surprised no one commented on my most recent post on this subject, just scan up a few posts it's lengthy but I believe i make a good point. I'm not sure if Laurelome read my post but what she mentions in her post is basically what I was saying,
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Lauremlome
Is it just like an extension of himself??

Yes I believe the Eye is nothing more than an extension of Sauron's self, something he created to keep a watch over M-E, 'the All Seeing Eye'. Like the Ring I'd imagine Sauron had to put some of his own power into it, but unlike the ring if the Eye was somehow destroyed (if that is possible) I don't think that would be the end of Sauron.

Laurelome, to answer your question about the Mouth of Sauron (Lieutenant of the Tower of Barad-dur) he was of the Black Númenorean races, which would make him a human. Sauron must have obviously granted him years in life beyond the comprehension of man, he became Sauron's servant when the Dark Tower first rose again(TA 2951). Although there is no exact date his when he was born, it is said his people became servants of Sauron before the downfall of Númenor probably sometime between (SA 1000 - 16000).

Sauron's control over him wouldn't be as potent as a Nazgul, whom Sauron can bend to his will in any matter, it would be more like a King's control over anyone under the King's liege. That being said rest assured that the Mouth of Sauron would do anything that his master wills.
I was just reading some previous posts and Thorin brought up some points I'd like to comment on, without the intentions of sounding like I'm picking on you Thorin. Smile Smilie
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i think sauron became powerful as we kow him due to melkor. somewhere in the silmarillion is mentioned that melkor lost his powers through the creatures he created and thus his powers were spread far and wide.

it can thus be deduced that sauron inherited part of melkor powers which thus increased his own powers; (''sauron had now become a great sorceror" somewhere in the sil) which i thinks explain why he became so powerful even when compared to his own brood.

Sauron was always one of the most powerful of the Maia, hence the reason why Melkor made it one of his first priorities to convert him to his side. Of course Melkor would pass Sauron as much knowledge as he could and would add to Sauron's might, but as for Melkor putting forth his own power into Sauron, that is doubtful, and if he actually did I'm sure it was only sparengly.
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and the mair were peer maybe not all having the same powers but i think having the same overall stenght.

I always believe the Maiar's strengths were in comparison to the Valar; they each have strengths in different aspects.

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yes i agree that he was defeated by huan but you forgot one thing: this was a decree of the valar and wowen with the fate of the silmaril which is a much greater power.

also concerning sauron being defeated by isildur (i will not say elendil because he was already dead then) i cannot be sure how it happened considering the fact that the only damage isildur did to him was to cut his finger and it might have been luck or not.

You didn't call it luck when Huan bested Sauron in the fight. Besides the movie's demonstration of Isildur cutting Sauron's finger is not exactly how it goes in the book.
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FOTR P.69
It was Gil-Galad, Elven-king and Elendil of Westernesse who overthrew Sauron, though they themselves perished in the deed; and Isildur Elendil's son cut the ring from Sauron's hand and took it for his own.

So it wasn't actually that lucky swing that it appeared to be in the movie. Wink Smilie
I will however say that in this instance the film made it look like a better scenario. Isildur reaching for Elendil's sword, Sauron steps on it and it breaks and then reaches for Isildur and then getting his hand sliced is more realistic in my eyes than Sauron falling to the ground and then Isildur rushing over to cut his finger off.
Sauron's demise in the motion picture is utterly ludicrous, because Sauron would not just vanish because he lost a finger.

In the books, Sauron lay defeated at the hands of Elendil and Gil-galad when Isildúr cut off the Ring. PJ made the defeat of Sauron look like a pathetic lucky shot, and Elendil as an old weakling.
True but Sauron is not going to simply fall over and then allow Isildur to come over to him and grab his finger to cut it off.
Besides in the film when Sauron loses his Ring it is very accurately done. The Ring contained something like 2/3 of his total power so if he were to have it cut off then his phisical form would have been robbed of him, just like when he gets sucked down into the abyss at the drowning of Numenore. Sauron would no longer have the Power needed to hold a body together with 1/3 of the power it took to forge that body.
Sauron's body was destroyed, his spirit had already passed when Isildúr cut off the Ring. He would not get up anymore.

Furthermore, from what one can gather from LOTR, Sauron did not need the Ring to maintain a physical form. He had a physical form as the Necromancer, when Pippin looked into the Palantír and when Gollum was led before him. Gollum commented to Frodo & Sam that the Dark Lord had a finger less.

If he absolutely needed the Ring to maintain a physical form, then how would he ever be able to wear the Ring again, if he found it again after losing it so long ago? He would not have a physical form, nor be able to build and maintain one again, hence for ever unable to wear the Ring and harness its powers.

Priceless.

This whole matter has already been discussed, anyway. Read the first page of this thread, if you so please.
Each time he forged a new phisical form it drained more of his power and became much harder to do. It took him a huge amount of time to forge the body in the Third Age in Dol Guldur. Whereas it did not take nearly as long after his spirit came back to Mordor from Numenor and he took up the Ring again to forge himself a new body.

I quote from the Sil:

"But Sauron was not of mortal flesh, and though he was robbed now of that shape in which he had wrought so great an evil, so that he could never again appear fair to the eyes of Men, yet his spirit arose out of the deep and passed as a shadow and a black wind over the sea, and came back to Middle-earth and to Mordor that was his home. There he took up again his great Ring in Barad-dûr, and dwelt there, dark and silent, until he wrought himself a new guise, an image of malice and hatred made visible; and the Eye of Sauron the Terrible few could endure."

If the Ring was suddenly cut from his hand then the shear suddeness of the loss of power would force him to abandon that body.

Sauron fell to the ground after slaying Elendil and Gil-galad but he did not lose his phisical form until Isildur cut of the Ring. Otherwise why would Isildur bother to if Sauron was already 'slain'?
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Otherwise why would Isildur bother to if Sauron was already 'slain'?

Because Isildúr wanted the One Ring. Sauron's body was already destroyed at that point. It is mentioned nowhere in the books that Sauron suddenly exploded into a flash.

Again, please read the first page of this thread, where various serious arguments are brought forth backed up with quotes et al, instead of blindly throwing forth unfounded statements.

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There he took up again his great Ring in Barad-dûr, and dwelt there, dark and silent, until he wrought himself a new guise, an image of malice and hatred made visible; and the Eye of Sauron the Terrible few could endure.

Where does this excerpt say he had need of the Ring to wrought a new form, let alone used the Ring to wrougth a form?

Since he did not need any Ring to wrought any form in the Past, nor did he need any Ring to wrought a form in absence of his Ring (Necromancer, etc, see the quotes I've posted above). Concluding from this, he never needed the Ring to wrought any form at all.
I think you are getting confused with my statements.

I know Sauron doesn't need the Ring to form a new body. The Ring is merely an extension of Sauron's total power, it doesn't give him power that he did not have before he made the Ring.

But when the Ring is cut from Sauron's hand, Sauron loses all the Power that he put into it. Thus its much harder for him to forge other bodies, but not impossible. As I say it took him a very long time to forge a new body in the Third Age becuase he had lost all his power that was in the Ring. However after the Downfall of Numenor he forged a new body much quicker becuase he had the Ring to aid him and give him strength.

As for Sauron already being phisically rendered useless after his battle with Elendil and Gil-galad I have never seen a quote suggesting that.

I quote:

"But at the last the siege was so strait that Sauron himself came forth; and he wrestled with Gil-galad and Elendil, and they both were slain, and the sword of Elendil broke under him as he fell. But Sauron also was thrown down, and with the hilt-shard of Narsil Isildur cut the Ruling Ring from the hand of Sauron and took it for his own. Then Sauron was for that time vanquished, and he forsook his body, and his spirit fled far away and hid in waste places; and he took no visible shape again for many long years."

It says here that only after Isildur cut the Ring from Sauron's hand was he vanquished. It also says Isildur cut the Ring from Sauron hand and Then claimed it for his own. It does not say 'He cut the Ring from Sauron's hand TO claim it for his own'.

I have read the posts at the beginning of this thread by the way.
This is purely about semantics : 'thrown down' should not be taken literally, but taken as 'defeated'/'upset'/'overthrown' -> since in the first sentence it is mentioned that Gil-galad and Elendil were slain. Note it is written "also thrown down"; if JRRT meant it literally, he would've simply written "thrown down" without "also" in front of it. JRRT might've well written "also slain", but most likely refrained from this as to eschew a repetition of verbs.

Moreover, if Sauron had merely fallen, Isildúr would not have had the opportunity to cut Sauron's finger off his hand. Sauron would've pummeled Isildúr.

So then, indeed Isildúr took the One Ring to claim it for his own after Sauron lay destroyed, as a spoil of war which I believe is confirmed by what is written about this matter in Unfinished Tales.

In my opion Sauron was defeted before the Ring was cut of. His only way to escape would be to leave his body and vanish, but that would mean having to leave his Ring. So he would keep the body untill the Ring was taken from him or the body was slain. I don't think loosing the Ring 'killed' him, but he fled when it was taken from him.

To make it into a poorly made ninja movie: "Sauron, evil black ninja! You are defeted and we have taken your sword!" "You may have taken my sword, but you will never take ME! Hahahahaaa!" *vanishes in a puff of black smoke*

Also in my opion, these quotes doesn't really prove anything for any views. They can be interpreted as many things, and who is to say what is right? (except the Professor of course)
The word "Then" in these quotes tells nothing of thoughts, feelings, secret agendas or anything that lead to the actions. The events are listed one by one one as if one of us stood nearby watching. All we could see is that the finger was cut and Isildur putting the Ring in his pocket. It doesn't say if Isildur suddenly wanted the Ring after he had 'disarmed the enemy' (or disfingered) or if he had already wanted it for two hours or ten days.
Then it appears this is up for interpretation. In my opinion and knowledge of this I would have said it was Isildur cutting the Ring from Sauron's hand that vanquished him. It seems the most logical reason for him abandoning his body.

Basically Amarie you are saying that Sauron still inhabited his bady until the Ring was taken from Him? If so then you are agreeing with me. I said that when the Ring was cut from his hand, then he was vanquished - e.g left his phisical form.

Its up to others I guess to intepret the quotes as they believe.
I of course agree that Sauron's spirit only left his body after Isildúr had cut off the Ring... when I said "defeated" I meant he was physically beaten - he could not prevent Isildúr cutting off the Ring because his body was in shambles.

So he was forced to leave his body behind, similar to the defeat he suffered at Húan's paws.

Some people might even argue Sauron was 'defeated' after the Dagor Dagorlad, meaning a purely military defeat.

Since Sauron was an Ainu, only Eru could absolutely 'unmake' him. Even after the destruction of the Ring, Sauron's spirit remained, though it was only a pathetic sad spirit in comparison to his former stature.

The original point I've made was that in the movies, Sauron went *poof* after the Ring was cut off without his body first being destroyed, contrary to the books. It's this I disagree with.
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