So Tolkien wanted Gandalf with a soft f but wrote it with and hard f because the english woundn't pronounce it right? It doesn't sound like Tolkien to me! But if he did it so the kiddies who reads the hobbit shall get the name as correct as possible, then I can understand. In Norwegian the soft-f comes natural in names like Leiv Eriksson (the viking who discovered Amarica), while the word "leiv" has a v-sound not an f-sound.

Love how he based Quenya and Sindarin on finnish (among other), it makes it quite easy to get the elven-pronounciations right for me. (Except for some strange h-sounds that varies from what vocals it stands next to)

[Redigert den 6/11/2002 av Amarië]

Frodo34 posted on 17/12/2003 at 22:13 under the Ivy Bush Tavern Grondmaster's response of today is:

IMHO it is to instill trust in those whom he is trying to sweet-talk into helping him make the world a better place by ridding it of Sauron.

The old are more often wiser than the young, having had more time to learn from their many mistakes. Bilbo, Frodo, Aragorn, King Theoden, et al wouldn't have trusted a pretty young face. Their response to his advice probably would have been, "What does he know, he hasn't even been around the block yet."

Therefore, when Olórin (Gandalf) came to Middle-earth from Valinor, about 2000 years before Bilbo's eleventy-first birthday party, he adopted the guise of an old man.

On Tuesday I attended a very good lecture of the efefcts of aging on human brain. It was brilliant, among others, I learned one finr proverb: "As they age, the wise become even wiser, and the fools become even more foolish"!

This seems to be a thread about Gandalf...but there seems to be quite a bit on it about things other than the wizard. So I hope it will be appropriate to post here my answer to something Virumor said elsewhere.

Virumor mentioned that there was no more powerful Maia in ME than Sauron, until Gandalf arrived. I assume he meant until the Istari arrived, for they were all Maiar. But the point is, they took the form of old men. Remember that Gandalf told the Balrog he was "wielder of the flame of Anor"? The Balrog didn't know whom he was dealing with. I think, from what I can gather in LOTR, that Sauron was not aware of the real identity of these wizards. Sauron certainly knew a lot, but he was not omniscient. I think this is borne out by Angmar's words to the effect that they had been watching him "wander"--but they did not really understand what Gandalf was all about. Perhaps this was part of the reason the Istari were disguised as old men...They appeared no more than that, and the Enemy could not see through their guise either.

As has been discussed elsewhere, there is no question of a direct confrontation between Gandalf and Sauron. That is just not how things worked. Elsewhere also, I reviewed ROTK and gave my reasons why Gandalf could not have been overcome by Angmar.

But as Sauron was able to so easily overcome Saruman's scruples and gather him into the fold, he didn't worry about the others knowing from back in the old days that Curunir (Curumo, aka Saruman) was the greatest among Aiwedil (aka Radagast), Alatar, Pallando, and Olórin (aka Mithrander, Gandalf). He ignored them as being mere midges in the midst of the mist surrounding his machinations.

I agree, Morambar. Saruman may have found that he could not use the palantir without having to kowtow to Sauron. But he was quite capable of playing the role of double agent. He could deceive his new "master" as well as the West and play things the way he wanted--at least as far as he thought he could. I think this is the gist of what Gandalf was saying about him in TTT.

I also have my doubts that Sauron could really dominate another Maia, even through the palantir. He could control what Saruman saw, but not his mind. He could cow a wizard maybe, but not really overthrow his head. And remember that the palantiri didn't belong to Sauron or the wizards at all--they belonged to the heirs of Numenor. Aragorn wrested the Orthanc Stone from Sauron and made Sauron afraid by showing him Anduril--forced Sauron to strike wildly and make war prematurely. So I don't think Saruman was really in Sauron's power at all. I think he was using Sauron as Sauron was using him.

Saruman would've revealed the identity of the Istari to Sauron, or Sauron would've read it in Saruman's mind.


A Maia can be dominated by any other Maia who is more powerful. Gandalf the White forced Saruman to stay on the balcony when the latter wanted to leave. That's domination:


Furthermore, Gandalf described that Saruman was forced by Sauron to have meetings through the Palantir:



He thought he could, though Sauron knew everything - as Grishnákh indicates in TTT:

Hmmm... having read what Vir said about Saruman and the Palantir I wonder that maybe Sauron's influence over Saruman may have been greater than I thought. Certainly it seems to have grown from when Saruman finally made contact with Barad-dur.

However, it may have been mere conjecture on Gandalf's part.



I suspect Saruman was influenced by Sauron, even persuaded by him but only after Saruman's own desires had turned him from the original path.

And "constrained" as Gandalf said it does not define how he was constrained to look into the palantir. Was he constrained because his mind was overruled and he was in Sauron's power? I don't think so. There are other ways of constraint, just as effective. By that point in time, Saruman's lust for the Ring was so great that he would endure anything in order to further his own plans, even having to deal with Sauron and report to him daily. I doubt very much that Sauron knew of Saruman's attempt to acquire the Ring through his Uruk-hai. If Sauron had known, I believe Grishnakh's orders would have been such that they would not have gone all the way to Fanghorn before he made his move. Notice the attitude of the Uruks toward the Mordor orcs? They despised them, and even despised the Nazgul. They had to have picked up this attitude from someone, for they would not have known these things of their own.

I do not know if Narya's power was of the "hiding" sort. If we go back to the passage in UT(?), Cirdan said that Narya was to assist Gandalf in kindling the hearts of men. This does not seem the kind of power that would necessarily hide the wearer. Nenya--yes, it was the Ring of Adamant, which mean that it preserved things from changing. So Galadriel could use it to hide herself and her land--to a point. Remember, they were still having to fight off attacks later. Vilya's power--I don't recall ever reading about it. It's possible it was similar to Nenya's, but then, each Ring was different as shown by their different stones. So quite possibly Vilya's power was something else again. So I would have to say that the "hiding" or "veiling" of the Enemy's eyes was probably part of Gandalf's own power, and certainly something that would aid his mission.

I don't know what the Dwarven rings did, but I presume it helped the Dwarves with prospecting for mithril, gold, silver and other ores in their mines : maybe it gave them 'visions' of where to find it.


Saruman mingled Orcs with Men in order to create his Uruk-Hai. Men usually loath Orcs, hence the feeling of the Uruks for their cousins from Mordor is prolly something that comes from their human heritage.


Vilya was the most powerful of the Three, and considering what happened at Ford Bruinen, I presume that one of Vilya's powers was granting its wielder control over the elements, or at least the element water.

Not quite right this time O Great Learned One, From LotR, Book 2, Chapter 1: Me thinks the white riders and horses were an illusion Gandalf added to Elronds flood; though it may be that he sculpted them from the waters of the flood which would have still been some doing, in which case Virumor is proved right. But I think Gandalf's fireworks may also have had some of this quality of illusion in them too, not that this took away any of the hobbits enjoyment of them, or the horses' fear of the white riders and horses, especially as those boulders and roiling water proved deadly.

I guess you mean the river Nimrodel? Celebrant was a bit far off.


Great Learned One? No, I'm an idiot. Anyway, in the quote you posted Gandalf says Elrond has control over the river. That was what I was talking about, I don't care about Gandalf's cheap trick with the waters.