Valedhelgwath began this thread with the following post.



Allyssa replied

Feanor the First-born? That must have been quite a shock to the elves!

But seriously, it does fit with the mood of the the ME mythology, that their greatest and most beautiful should be corrupted or 'marred' by evil.

Was Feanor himself evil? That is, can he be said to be responsible for his actions?

I also remember reading somewhere that Feanor held mortals in absolute contempt. Has anyone else read this passage? (it was in one of the HOME books)

He wasn't the first Elf to be born in Valinor either. He wasn't the first Elf.

i.e Serinde as Miriel's mother name is of Quenya form for Perinde, which is Quenya. Quenya wasn't as advanced in M-E as Beleriand so Miriel got her mother name in Valinor hence she was born there. Just a example. I believe 'Laws and Customs' states that she was a generation younger then Finwe, I also believe I read Nerdanel was older then Feanor.

Also, Feanor was born in the V.Y 1179, some 46 or so years since the Noldor and Vanyar reached Aman, since one V.Y is equal to 9.58 Y.OS then surely in there would've been a few Elf babies born in a few hundered years?

I fail to see your point....

Here you are describing two Elves, they are and can be exception,I am talking about thousands. For example you could claim Nerdanel, Mahtan, Maedhros, Amrod and Amras had red-brown hair as told in the Shibboleth of Feanor (HoME 12) yet they were exceptions...

In the peace of Aman, the Elves were more likely to have children, as Elves opt to have children and marry in times of peace. Read Laws and Customs (HoME 10) for more information on Eldarin marriages etc.

They had only lived in Aman for 46 years but elves will not have children unless they can belive they can bring it up. They probably wouldn't have trusted the Valar yet.
Some of the first elves to be born would be Orcs!

Ross-The Annals of Aman tells us how one Valian year was equal to 9.58 years of the sun (Here we must discount the idea of a Elven yen being 144 Years of the Sun given in the Appendix to LoTR and seemignly re-surfacing in Myths Transformed ) so therfore it was 440 or so years of the sun since the Vanyar and Noldor came to Aman and Feanor's birth.

They did trust the Vaalr thats why they went to and remained in Valinor, why would they stay with people they didn't trust? There were many Elven people before feanor, Miriel, his mom, and when talking to Manwe Finwe mentions that Ingwe and Olwe had brought forth many kids into the world. Some of the first Elves first born weren't Orcs either.

Note the idea that Orks were derived of Elvish stock was a Eressian loremaster theory, one that Tolkien seemingly later rejected, at least to the point that they wee only partly derived from Elvish ‘stock’ but were in the main of Maiacal;



Bestial


In summary: I think it must be assumed that 'talking' is no necessarily the sign of the possession of a 'rational soul' or fea. The Orcs were beasts of humanized shape (to mock Men and Elves) deliberately perverted I converted into a more close resemblance to Men. Their 'talking' was really reeling off 'records' set in them by Melkor. Even their rebellious critical words - he knew about them. Melkor taught them speech and as they bred they inherited this; and they had just as much independence as have, say, dogs or horses of their human masters. This talking was largely echoic (cf. parrots). In The Lord of the Rings Sauron is said to have devised a language for them.

And Mannish origin, though here Men’s awakening was put much further back to the march of the Eldar maybe ,but this would not fit in with the chronology of Adanel’s tale since Melkor was here held captive by Namo in Mandos, but nonetheless Men had awaken much further back even if no accurate date can be given.

Latter on in Myths Transformed Tolkien comments that Orc’s were reduced to a ‘puppet-like’ condition, therefore they could not be corruptions of Elves/Dwarves but of Men. If we are to work from texts that don’t conflict the Published Silmarillion, or form the Quenta itself, then your statement ‘Orcs are still technically elves until the Uruk's are bread.’ is void for several reasons.


1. Orcs couldn’t possibly still be Elves. They were a different race entirely. They were vile ,corrupted and a parrot-like race, this does not constitute Elvish abilities. There were Orc-like beings haunting Cuivienen prior to the ’transformation’ of Elves to Orcs, They were evidently of Bestial and Maiacal form, therefore Orcs being technically Elves cannot be true since they were of various origins. I also notice that psychically they were much like animals, esp. in regards to the ‘long arms’ that are continually ascribed to Orcs in LoTR;



I’m confused by this statement. ‘Uruk’ is simply another term for ‘Orcs’ a borrowing of Sauron from the Quenya/Sindarin term, or early Elven for the spirits of malice that haunted them. The Orcs’ delighted in this name as it was a exclamation of fear, but later on it was used for the ‘best soldiers’ of Sauron’s regime (LoTR; appendix, HoME 11, Quendi and Eldar). For example, when under attack from Orcs in Moria Gandalf says ‘Some of them are very large and evil: black Uruk’s from Mordor’.

If you are referring to the URUK-HAI mixtures of Men+Dunlanders,we (I believe Sauron also bred Uruk-hai, hence the statement in the conversation between the two Orcs witnessed by Sam and Frodo that a ’pack of rebel Uruk-hai has taken over Cirith Ungol) ,we can see that there were still ‘few’ of them in comparison to other ‘normal ‘Orcs’.

No they went because of the promise of Aman and the Two Trees as well as reverence for their leaders, when the Elves actually SAW Oromë they saw him as the goodly figure that he was and they had a reverence for Elebreth before they got to Aman which would have been enhanced when they arrived there:



I don’t see any quote which ever says upon arrival in Aman they were mistrustful of the Valar or that Feanor was the first born in Aman. There dozens of references to Elves being born in and out of Aman before Feanor, given in previous posts.



Actually the proportions upon leaving Aman were 3:2 in favour of the Eldar. (HoME 11, Quendi and Eldar) Also they did want to leave but couldn’t because they arrived too hence to term they gave to themselves the ‘Eglath’ (Forsaken)

I didn't mis-quote you I gave people both explanations of the word, note 'If you meant Uruk Hai'

I feel your attitude as being offensive to me. I was pleased that I had supposedly come across a civilized Tolkien forum when I saw the 'family friendly' and know, days after I have joined, I feel myself questioning this. sorry, but I nevr recollect making insultry remarks to you, I view as agressive posts. his

And if you must fight, remember to keep it impersonal.

Now go to your neutral corners, choose your textual weapons, come out when you hear the rooster crow, and may the best Muppet win.



PS: Don't hold your breath, the rooster is a rubber chicken with a terminal case of laryngitis.

I did feel slighted by you in two ocasions, but I'm willing to both accept your apology and offer one in return.

Come on eveeryone knows I'm the Mad Muppet Catcher Genera,l of coarse I will win!

The Elves hid or fled in fear from Orome, due to the fact that Morgorth had his minions hunt the Elves soon after he discovered. Nahar was a wild and fierce beast that would scare the living excrement out of the bravest creature. Orome was the hunter embodied, his form was of that, designed for tracking down and slaying of beast's.

I think the point here is that Melkor (not yet named Morgoth) had disguised himself in the visage of Orome and hunted down the Elves before the Valar discovered they had awakened, so that when the real Orome actually discovered them, they naturally fled and hid from him. Melkor in his evil started the relationship between the Elves and the Valar with fear and mistrust. Or did I read that section of the Silmarillion wrong too?

Findekano (or anyone else),

Could you please let me know where you picked up the references you have to when Feanor and other elves were born pre-1st age - I assume it is in the HOME series somewhere?
I have mentioned on other threads my reluctance to dive into HOME, not wishing to spend endless hours reading stuff that contradicts the Silmarillion; but this is the sort of detail I would be willing to buy the odd additional book to get.

The references to Feanor being born on the Great Journey West come from Morgoth's Ring. They were from one of the first drafts of the Quenta Silmarillion, and in successive re-writes this birth occurs later and later along the time scale.

What I am finding is that you have to be really careful how you interpret information you find in HOME. You have to look at what stage the section was written, and then decide if it contradicts the Silmarillion, or whether it was superceeded itself by later material.

Unfortunately some of the last stuff Tolkien wrote seems to contradict a lot of the stuff which was published in the Silmarillion (the creation of the sun and moon for example). It seems as though he was trying to fit his world back into our own known cosmos. I'd like to think that had he lived longer, he'd have torn up these later ideas.

Okay, I partially had it wrong. Here is what Tolkien actually wrote on the fourth and fifth pages of Chapter 3 (Of the Coming of the Elves) in The Silmarillion: The next paragraph goes on to say that when Oromë actually came riding on his horse Nahar, that some of the Quendi hid, some fled and were lost, but those that were brave were drawn to the light of his face seeing that he wasn't a shape out of darkness.

Note: For ease in reading on the Website, I did break the longer quote above, from one gigantic paragraph into four smaller ones.
_________________________________________________________
And the very next paragraph is the one that says:

[Edited on 3/12/2003 by Grondmaster]

This is the opinion of the Elves. JRRT himself wrote somewhere in his letters that the Orcs weren't created out of Elves and that they have nothing in common. He acknowledged that what was written in the Sil, was indeed just the opinion of the Wise of the Elves.

See my previous post, and see below.


Where did dragons come from? wargs? orcs?

How did Melkor make dragon bodies, if we agree that the dragon spirits are Maiar (like with the great Eagles) ? Did he capture an eagle and tortured the beast until it became a dragon?

I think Melkor made Orc, dragon, warg, troll bodies the way Aule made Dwarven bodies. And one way or another he was able to put some soul into it.
For dragons i think he put a Maiar soul in it, for instance. What soul he used for an Orc, i have no idea.

The easiest explanation would be the Elvish explanation that Melkor hunted and captured some Elf and turned Elf into Orc by means of torture and making them watch the extended version of TTT, but as JRRT wrote somewhere in his Letters that this wasn't true, i'm in doubt.

I remember i read that letter somewhere some time ago, but i am not sure for 100%


[Edited on 4/12/2003 by virumor]

OK, this thread is now officially alive, again... Bear with me and my essay... Of course, any opinions will be more than welcome, here or under 'The House of Finwe...' thread from Silmarillion. Here goes nothing!

Fëanor – essay on


Silmarillion, Chapter 6

That was Fëanor. To some - the greatest Elf ever to walk in Arda; to others - the darkest Calaquendi. But, when you come to think of it, who was Fëanor in truth? The answer is right before our eyes:


Silmarillion, Chapter 6

It’s a case of split personality, perhaps: on one hand, we have ‘Finwë the Skillful’, his birth-name; on the other hand, his mother names him Feanaro, ‘Spirit of Fire’. And, indeed, he was skillful and hot-tempered; his life is a permanent battle between these two traits. But, in the end, the inner fire prevails…
Fëanor's spirit was a consuming flame: it burnt everything around and then, when there was nothing left, it consumed him.

To lose one's mother is a terrible thing to happen; to lose her and to think you were the cause of her death, that's beyond tragedy! Those were Fëanor's feelings when growing up. He had no mother to temper his outbursts, no mother to love him beyond guilt or hope, no mother to counsel him when in doubt. Maternal love cannot be replaced by anything, not even by his father's overwhelming affection. Oh, speaking about his father …

When Míriel died, Finwë saw his entire world crumble. He held only to one hope: his son. He put all of his care in raising him and Fëanor was, from the very beginning, the one he loved above anyone and anything else. He did make a choice, though, that would influence the Noldor's entire history afterwards. Marrying Indis, he neglected what Fëanor might think of this; the future deeds of his son, the enstrangement between him and his half-brothers, have shown that. Yet, no one can deny the great and decissive role their houses played in the common fight against Evil.

Finwë's death was the turning point in Fëanor's life; from then on, he was driven by his inner fire only. Indeed, can anyone find a greater connection of a father with his son?


Silmarillion, Chapter 9

Then there’s this ‘fea theory’ I have. The Eldar’s hroa (flesh, material body) is consumed by their fea (spirit) as time passes by; they come to see life as a burden, some day. Yet, in the beginning, their fea is brighter and stronger than their hroa. That could explain why the first Elves seem more powerful and imposing than the latter. Also, it may explain Fëanor’s unusual strenght of spirit! And his selfishness, of course! After all, feas are what you may call ... unsociable and lonely!

No doubt about it: the most precious and the most wanted things Fëanor ever made were the Silmarils. Their creation is surrounded by a mysterious halo, just like the substance they were made of: silima. Also, for the following course of events, I think it’s important to know why did he even commited himself to such a task; and that’s explained right from the beginning:


Silmarillion, Chapter 7

But how much did he put forth into these jewels? Was it more than mere smithcraft? Was it creation? This is where one of Tolkien’s main themes appears once more: the creator/maker. Eru Iluvatar is everywhere, in everything, at every moment; He uses the Flame Imperishable to kindle His Creation; His Children have him in their spirits. Melkor, in the attempt to rule Arda, diffuses a part of his mighty fea in the world’s hroa; thus, not until the world is broken and remade, can Evil be cured that once has been good. Sauron, on the other hand and on a different scale, concentrates his power, making the One Ring. The Dwarves resemble Aule, their Maker, in mood; the mood which Eol passes to the sword he makes, one Gurthang.
The point would be that, for a creation to have a life of its own, the maker has to put forth into it more than his lore, knowledge or skill; he has to put a part of his spirit as well, binding himself to it. As Fëanor says:


Silmarillion, Chapter 9

Yet this brings me to the single moment in his story when I cannot explain his deeds: the Kinslaying at Alqualonde. Why did he not understand the Teleri, when Olwe told him:


Silmarillion, Chapter 9

... I cannot see! Blinded he was, and fey; his fault unforgivable!

And so I come to faults, which one could call sins. There's lust and forgetfulness:


Silmarillion, Chapter 7

… rebellion:


Silmarillion, Chapter 7

… pride:


Silmarillion, Chapter 7

… treason:


Silmarillion, Chapter 9

Of course, when speaking of mistakes, sins and evil deeds, one should take a moment and think of Melkor. Though his lies pierced through to Fëanor's heart, he never subdue his will; Fëanor lived under the Shadow, bearing the Enemy's hate, yet he was never conquered:


Silmarillion, Chapter 6


Silmarillion, Chapter 7


Silmarillion, Chapter 9

The choice that he had, to break or not the Silmarils, could only be resolved, as he said it, by his slaying in the process; I think he knew that best of all. Yet this should not be the end of the discussion… Even under these circumstances, shouldn't he have surrendered the jewels? He could've sacrified himself, but, after all, we're talking about the most selfish and self-centered Elf ever, perhaps… So, I guess that's out of the question!

Twice banished (once from his home in Tirion, the second time from Aman itself), cursed by Mandos and pursued by the wrath of the Valar, not recognized as King of the Noldor, Dispossessed (along with his sons), slayer and betrayer of kin, swearing a terrible oath, Fëanor was far from what he was in the beginning, from what he was supposed to be; the Valar were grieved, and Manwe wept:


Silmarillion, Chapter 11

Yet they did grant him his renown:


Silmarillion, Chapter 11

And Mandos always knows best… The Spirit of Fire soon burned his way out of the material world, as one who was just passing by, not willing to stay for long in Arda Marred.


Silmarillion, Chapter 13

Yet some say that after Dagor Dagorath, the Battle of Battles, when Morgoth will suffer his last and uttermost defeat, and the Silmarils will be recovered from air, fire and water, Fëanor himself will bring them to Yavanna; then they will be broken and the Light within shall shine anew. One can only hope in the power of redemption…

Namarie!

An excellent and well-researched post, Bugy!

Buggy seams to have a lot to say. I wish I had time to read it....

It really is worth taking the time to read! Magnificent work Bugyman! I've got to go read the Silmarillion again real soon.

I liked the piece also Master Bugy, well versed and analysed... but on a lighter note:

"isnt Feanor rather like a little spoilt child who brings along his new football (or toys) to play with his friends and then decides out of spite, to take his ball(toys) away with him for his own selfish amusement - Bright or Brat?"

Dont take that too seriously friend, twas meant as a lil innocuous pokey-fun thing.

"light-hearted means just that" I'm sure Feanor is big enough to take the odd jibe or two, were he around.

heh

I'd private message you Vee, but i have a measly 5 mithril left... Ach!!!

Anywho, me understands, just that on some sites, any kind of unflattering remarks made in regard to subject matter Tolkien can and have been taken largely out context and made out to be some kind of blasphemous attack, when in fact its not! Hmmm, well i must caution against my irreverence in all things for fear of being snagged by the Spanish Inquisiton.

P.S. the security settings at my terminal prevent me from entering the chat-room... *smacks head against monitor* Big brother is watching me, i must work or else its the LASH!!!

ps: I can do a great impression of The Spanish Inquisition.

Who told you about my cushions?

Nicely plumped.......

Sorry.......

Degenerate?

I was going to ask if anyone could spot the bored people.

I've seen your response to Any Questions and I have responded.

OK, back to Feanor and Bugy's wonderful essay.

Next!