But still he became greedy! Aulë never became greedy

Aye you are correct Vee...it was perhaps not greed as much as it was obsession...but he hoarded all his gems in his castle and did not want anyone else to see the Sils....so it might be greed too....and selfishness......a corrupted elf he became....prolly the most vile and evil deed of Morgoth.....

I see Melkor as more Lucifer.

Melkor was the Lucifer in Tolkien's world; yet, it's true, to some extent, that Feanor fell too!
As for his parallel with Lenin... hmmm, I still cannot put them together; they're just so different!

Now, back to Feanor and his well-renowned deeds that are to be sing ere the end of Arda!

Lol, Feanor and commun property: that'll be smth to see!
Yeah, they did overreact when it came to their own people, yet the lies of Melkor were doing much of the job!

Saruman did try to persuade Gandalf to join with him and with Sauron, suggesting they can bide their time for the ultimate purpose - Knowledge, Rule, Order.........

Not really, I mean the youngest Elves I can think of are Eluréd and Elurín, who were left to starve in the woods of Doriath.

Morgoth's Ring does mention Elven children and the rate at which they mature to adulthood. In the section concerning Elven rebirth after leaving the halls of Mandos, I seem to recall it mentioning children too, because this is where Tolkien ran into some difficulties (should a child from a reborn fea be a new entity, based on the genes of its parents, or the old spirit, with its memories etc).

I'll look up the details when I have more time if you wish to know more.

OK, guess who's back?! And it's not even Dagor Dagorath... hehehe...

Anyways, I've missed all of you, guys, and I though "what better way to show I'm alive than posting in this thread?" Feanor is a complex, intriguing character; it's hard to say we've exhausted the subject...

Glad to be back... May the swords of the Noldor protect you and may the Valar bestow their grace upon you!

Namarie!

I don't think Feanor was rotten inside. He was good. But he was a man of special skills. Such people usually are the best in their field but are often eccentric. Then again, I don't know if Tolkien thought of this when he created Feanor's character.

Now we're talking about the Silmarils. Firstly, I think it's very much in Feanor's rights to deny the Valar the Silmarils after the trees were killed. One would be extraordinarily unselfish to do away with your greatest creation. One who does such a thing, is great, but one who doesn't, is just human (Whatever, you get the meaning. Now don't get too literal and tell me that Feanor is an Elf!). I honestly find Manwe lame! Say, when Morgoth fled to Beleriand with the Silmarils, why didn't he do something as in, chase him there to retrieve the Silmarils? Valar wanted the Silmarils to try and resurrect the trees. Does this mean that they were only being selfish when they wanted to destroy the Silmarils (apparently so... otherwise, wouldn't Feanor hand them to the Valar to help them resurrect the trees?) to resurrect the trees, but didn't want to do anything to recover them when Morgoth fled with them. Now people might argue here that the Valar might have done something later had Feanor not made haste and led the Noldor over. Well, he wanted to recover his greatest creation and had he received any sign that the Valar would act upon it, wouldn't he wait? Also, like I said, he wasn't the most matured person. He wanted to retrieve his greatest creation and take revenge of his father's slaying (That's one point, I think, people forget about). What's wrong with that? It merely followed that he happened to be the king and the Noldor followed him. Kinslaying wasn't done by Feanor alone, but the Noldor were involved. True he didn't do to stop the kinslaying but whoever said that he was the most matured person. Also, he was blinded by anger. The Teleri did their part in only making him more angry and blind! Of course it was within their rights to do that. But in the end many of the Teleri died needlessly, didn't they?

There was a quote about Diego Maradona... "He blossomed into an artist, but he didn't manage to mature into a man". I think this applies to Feanor. Only add the hate, anger and mistrust in the Valar and you have a deadly combination that gives you the events in the Silmarillion and later!

I think the Elves that remained behind with the Valar did as much kinslaying as the Noldor who went over with Feanor. They eventually dropped to the Feanorians' standard when they would just sit and feast and enjoy in Valinor and let their kin in Beleriand die. How valid is that? People make mistakes. And the wise manage to make them realise their mistakes and help them to repair the damage. What did the Valar do? The exact opposite. Don't tell me that Feanor was rotten. He simply wasn't matured enough and the people who were suppose to be wise didn't help him realise it. They simply put a curse on him!

Technically speaking, I think the Valar were responsible for Feanor's deeds. They let Melkor free. Feanor didn't trust him did he? I don't think I find Feanor wrong for not trusting the Valar and possibly holding them responsible for his father's death. I can't say for sure, because I am not the one who wrote the Silmarillion! Anyways. Time for me to do some work here. I'll leave you this much to think upon!

He would have done that, like as he immediately sent Oromë and Tulkas after Morgoth and Ungolianth, but Fëanor and Co didn’t give him any time. Because Fëanor rushed into things, he lost the Valar’s help.


The Valar only asked Fëanor. They understood what it would mean for Fëanor to have his greatest creation destroyed – but, the thing is his creation would not be destroyed : it would only be used to heal another great creation, the Two Trees. It would mean the greatest Elvish creation would be used to save the greatest Vala creation. Fëanor didn’t grasp his creation would never be destroyed.

Besides, Fëanor didn’t hand them over because they’d be destroyed. That’s not the main reason : he didn’t want to hand it over because it was ‘his’. He only allowed it to be seen by himself and his father, like a little child with a lollypop. He clinged to his creation like Gollum clinged to his ‘precious’. A recurring theme in JRRT’s works, clinging to things.


It’s wrong because the whole mission was doomed to fail. No one of the children of Eru could ever defeat a Vala. But Fëanor just chose to ignore this and almost dragged the entire House of the Noldor with him in his doom. Why??? Because he was proud, or just moronic? Or both? More over, it seems he was aware of all of this, but delibaretely wanted to continu with it, and drag everyone with him, because he wanted everyone to go down with him in flames. The ultimate egocentrical act.

Or maybe i shouldn't give Fëanor so much credit, and maybe it is true he was only proud : then it is the most pathetic act ever - he isn't big enough to ask the Valar's help, so he gathers every spoon he can find to empty the sea.

Besides, his father was slain, but not dead. It was possible for Finwë to return from the halls of Mandos (which he never did, because he met his first wife Míriel Serinde there – also selfish ? ;-)). It seems Fëanor wanted to see daddy again by dying as quickly as possible, by defying the Valar and go after Morgoth – and it worked even ! Briljant plan ! !


If you are trying to make Fëanor look allright in the Kinslaying, you are failing. The Teleri were right in not allowing the Noldor to use their ships, as they didn’t want to defy the Valar themselves, like you said, and it should have ended there. The only reason the killing took place was because of Fëanor, and not because of the Teleri. And i fail to see how being angry or ‘immature’ is a reason for killing.

Fëanor started the Kinslaying, he is the one to blame there. Period. Just as he was responsible for the burning of the Teleri ships, which showed he didn’t give a penny for the lives of the Elves who had died at the Kinslaying, and for the lives of his half-brother FIngolfin and his House, who he obliged to cross the Helcaraxë, where numerous Elves died (Idril lost her mother there, for instance).

How is it that Fëanor isn’t rotten inside ?


If these Elves would’ve come with Fëanor or Fingolfin, they would also have died in the fight against Morgoth, it wouldn’t have made any difference at all. What Fëanor did, was hopeless from start to finish.

And i doubt any of the Eldar would « sit, enjoy and feast » after the Darkening of Valinor and the terrible events surrounding it.


Fëanor didn’t trust anyone, safe his father. Anyway, how can the Valar be responsible for Fëanor’s deeds ? Fëanor himself would greatly disapprove of this theory ! He made all of his choices himself, he was never forced or led by anyone of the Valar, even though they had the power to do so.

The fact that Fëanor compared Morgoth to the other Valar, shows his complete lack of wisdom and understanding ; never ever, safe once, did the Valar command the Eldar, and when they did, they did it at the worst possible time ever, but only because they were deeply hurt by the destruction of the Two Trees.

Melkor was only freed because Manwë believed he would rebuke from his past sins. There wasn’t such chance, a fact Tulkas and Ulmo understood, but not Manwë because he couldn’t grasp the concept of totally evilness. Manwë can only be blamed that he is too good.


He was rotten inside, only not from the very beginning. Only after Melkor’s release, when the latter began spreading his subtle works of spreading malice and mischief, Fëanor became rotten and to tend to himself, his Silmarils and his father.

His actions during the Kinslaying at Alqualondë and the destruction of the ships of the Teleri are the products of a rotten mind.

And again, Fëanor can be compared to Gollum when it comes to clinging to his precioussss. At least Gollum was wise enough to understand that once Sauron got the Ring, it was over. Fëanor was not.

In the end, it all comes down to running after 3 stupid big stones with a bit of light in. Sure, they're so beautiful, but who cares? Life of one Noldo Elf are more important than those 3 stones.

Fëanor didn't even repent in the very end, when he saw the peaks of Thangorodrim and knew in his heart that they'd never be conquered by any Elf...

If only Finrod hath been the "chosen one" and not Fëanor !


What Eru gave Fëanor more in talent than others, it seems he gave him less wisdom and benevolence.

What he lacked, seems to have gone to his other 2 brothers, to the valiant Fingolfin and the wise Finarfin.

I think, maybe things would've been different if Fingolfin and Finarfin weren't his half-brothers, which is the reason he didn't care for them. If they'd been his true brothers, perhaps they'd form a triumvirate of the 3 mightiest elves ever, and maybe then things would've gone into different directions... although it is hard seeing Fëanor taking the advice of anyone other besides himself... and perhaps Fëanor wouldn't have been the person he became if he didn't drag all fëa out of his mother (maybe he should've been named Nosfëaratu)... who knows.

That’s what they also were, in the end. They had no use before the destruction of the Two Trees. Don't forget without the Two Trees, there would never be any Sils.


No, it wouldn’t. The Two Trees had their use : lightsource, not to mention their light contained the blessing of the Valar. Hardly comparable to Fëanor’s 3 rocks.


Where did i say the Valar put it like that ?


Let’s focus on what’s in the Sil instead :


This totally contradicts your HOME quote ; as we are discussing the Silmarillion, HOME should not be used as it contains totally different versions of Silmarillion stories, and it is not clear which ones JRRT regarded as final. It is totally out of place and i don’t consider it a part of the Tolkien canon.

Fingolfin never wanted to rule the Noldor on his own. No, that was Fëanor :




It didn’t, but somehow Fëanor was responsible for the most rotten things, whilst other Eldar like Finrod, Galadriel and Fingolfin never did anything like that… but instead they did only great deeds… i wonder why. He quickly spiralled down to hell.


I never said « one of them was stupid and the other bright ». You’re putting words into my mouth. I said I hold Fingolfin and Finarfin in much higher regard than Fëanor : for one, they didn’t start a kinslaying or burnt any ships, and even after Fingolfin was betrayed by Fëanor, he still was faithful to the promise he made to his half-brother, even after the latter had put a sword against his chest.

I find Fëanor's actions of rushing after Morgoth, with no hope at succeeding in his goals, of which he was aware, a severely stupid action.
I look at Fingolfin's duel with Morgoth differently : Fingolfin thought the Noldor were completely finished, so he wanted to make a last, desperate stand. End with a bang, as so to speak. That was not stupid, it was either dying like that or dying by Orc blades or Balrog whips. Anyone would choose dying by a Hammer...

The more i think about Nosfëaratu, the more i dislike him. He’s an arrogant, evil genius (at least, only when it comes to making things). An anti-hero. A Shakespearian villain. I think Tulkas should’ve given him a couple of severe butt spanks, followed by a couple free rounds of Greek-Roman wrestling.

But of course, he wasn’t as worse as some of his sons…

And is this becoming a two-person thread ?

But the point is, that when we are discussing Fëanor within the context of the Silmarillion, we cannot suddenly use fragments of HOME or UT that contradict what's in the Sil or that are out of context. We should stay in the context of the Silmarillion.

No mixing of apples and oranges.

In the Sil, Christopher Tolkien put all his father's stories together which together formed a continuous story. HOME contains stories which sometimes completely diverge from what's in the Silmarillion : the quote you gave earlier about Fingolfin is a clear example.

Another example is Galadriel : there are several stories about her, but when we are discussing her in the Silmarillion context, we use JRRT's story of her like it's mentioned in the SIl, in which she came to Beleriand together with Fingolfin's group, instead of eg sailing away with Celeborn to Beleriand.

The only (non-academic) stories that are 100% canonical, because they were published before the author's death, are :

* Songs for the Philologists, with E.V. Gordon et al. (1936)
* The Hobbit or There and Back Again (1937)
* Leaf by Niggle (1945)
* The Lay of Aotrou and Itroun, published in Welsh Review (1945)
* Farmer Giles of Ham (1949)
* The Homecoming of Beorhtnoth, Beorhthelm's Son, published with the essay Ofermod (1953)
* The Lord of the Rings (1954)
* The Adventures of Tom Bombadil and Other Verses from the Red Book (1962)
* The Road Goes Ever On, with Donald Swann (1967)
* Tree and Leaf (1964)
* Tolkien on Tolkien (1966)
* Smith of Wootton Major (1967)

Only HOME, UT, the Silmarillion, Father Christmas Letters and Roverandom.

But these were stories JRRT worked on his entire life, more for his own enjoyment than to publish them. It's unknown what stories he considered to be final versions; perhaps there weren't even any final versions at all. Christopher Tolkien had to make a choice what stories to put together to form the most coherent story which became the Sil.

Stories of HOME and the Sil often contradict or are completely different. Both books are accepted as part of the canon, but the HOME is mostly used for providing background information, when applicable. For instance, HOME contains a more complete list of members of the House of Finwë -- it has Findis, Irimë and others added that aren't in the Sil. But generally the Sil is accepted as the narration of what happened before LOTR.

UT's stories are stories which fit in the Sil, but weren't originally added because they were found after the Sil was first published.


Well in HOME it's mentioned they beat their wives, so looks like they're not so great after all....

And what works are in 'thé' literary canon then ? Some ppl don't consider the Simarillion, let alone HOME, to be part of the Tolkien canon as he himself didn't put it together. Some ppl don't even consider any of his works to be literature... it all depends from person to person what's considered literature and what not.

Some ppl might even find Hairy Potty to be literature.


This thread is in 'Characters' so in fact we can do what we want, and take quotes from whatever Tolkien book, as long as it's on topic.

I actually thought this thread was in "the Silmarillion", so everything i said before should be disregarded.

And now back to Fëanor : he was really nasty, wasn't he ?


No, only a Fëanorian would ever beat his wife... look at how rough and disrespectful Curufin and Celegorm treated Lúthien for instance --- "Hey she looks pretty, so i need to have her." Men !

I won't even mention Caranthir 'the Dark'.

Only Maedhros and Maglor weren't monstra, really. Amrod and Amras get the benefit of the doubt, as there isn't much known about them.

It looks like you forget the role Ulmo played...

It was because of Ulmo Eärendil came into existence, as he sent Tuor to Gondolin, and hence by his doing the War of Wrath began and the Elves, Men and Dwarves were saved.

Even Manwë played a role, as his Eagles, led by Thorondor, greatly helped as well.

So, the Valar did something alright; they only sent in the cavalry after the Fëanorians and the ones who were dragged with them into the chasm, had suffered enough : the only 2 Fëanorians left then promptly thanked the Valar for their help by stealing the 2 Silmarils taken from Morgoth's crown..... which never fails to crack me up!

Eru is dead.

And heh, all my contributions in that thread are too. Bonkers!

Glad to see this thread caught your attention... again!

Well, see, Vir: the way you put it not even Sil is canonical. So there's not much to say on that topic... Of course, one might consider what the author himself might've made of the tale, since he was already changing some of the stories. I mean, I like the version of Galadriel from the Sil and early UT, but what if that whole Virgin Mary like character was Tolkien's final perspective on her? *sighs* We'll never know, I guess... but at least it gives us smth to talk about!

Eruwen, don't get me wrong: Fingolfin and Finarfin were both noble Elves, wise and valiant. Yet I think they could've better helped the Noldor if they had not undermined Feanor's legitimate claim to the throne of his father. (I'm sorry, but if we talk about Elves, you'll see it's the only case where power goes not to the firstborn, but to the secondborn; that would mean that Elves princes had to pray their fathers have no other sons, or else... :funnylaugh I can't justify all of Feanor's actions (eg. the Kinslaying), but to stir the Spirit of Fire was not very wise! What did Finarfin realise by staying behind, except earning the Valar's forgiveness? Except Galadriel, how many of his sons survived in Beleriand? Couldn't they have had more use for their father's wisdom in Middle-earth than to know he's safe back home? And how many Elves from Fingolfin's line made it to the end of the Second Age? Valiant, yes... but so were Feanor's sons... and that proved of no worth in the end. I still think that the Noldor could've done irreparable damage to Morgoth if united.

Oh, and... Grondy... *seriously looking* Don't worry! Eru's not dead; He's on vacation!

Namarie!

Oh, but weren't Fingolfin or Finarfin Noldor? Cause if they didn't considered themselves so, there wouldn't have been much trouble: Feanor would've simply led all of the Noldor (with the exception of these princes' close relatives and servants, of course) and it would've been the end of it.

Yes, Fingolfin officially accepted Feanor's natural right to rule over Finwe's House if their father would die, yet when it came to following the promise, things suddenly complicated. All of a sudden, Feanor's claim to the kingship of the Noldor was not welcomed anymore, cause he had defied the Valar's ban to stay out of Tirion for 12 years. What Fingolfin has forgotten, unfortunatelly, was that banned or not banned, Feanor was still the ELDEST son and, therefore, HEIR of Finwe!

I have nothing to say on what happened after Feanor's death, since Maedhros choose to acknowledge his uncle's kingship over all the Noldor. Though, aparently, his brothers were not too delighted with this prospect and had some things to say... not all of them too kind!

Namarie!

P.S.: Gimli had a harmless obsession with Galadriel, sooo...

Sort of reminds me of Richard the Lionheart's daddy, King Henry-the-tooth and his family problems.

Maybe. We don't have any thorough documentation on the Vanyarin and Teleri dynasty, so i wouldn't know.

But i doubt it, as Finwë is the only Elf to have ever remarried, and hence starting dynasty troubles. I'm sure the other Elven royal lines wouldn't have any trouble.


Harmless? Well, threatening to attack Éomer with an axe doesn't appear that harmless to me... the Sorceress of the Woods had him ensnared in her nets, that's for sure!

I think his reverance for her was quite touching actually...

But back to the Feanor stuff. Do you think it was Finwe's fault? I've always thought it was strange that he could love Indis after his great beloved Miriel died. I mean, he seemed so sad, when Miriel passed away.

The reason why Fëanor refuses to hand over the Silmarils, is erroneous :


He placed the Valar on the same line as Melkor... no wonder he makes his oath in the name of Eru later on.

Interesting is, that the following happens after that :



It seems to me that this quote indicates that Fëanor was granted his last chance for repentance when the Valar asked him to give the Sils (even though the Valar, safe perhaps Mandos, wouldn't know that themselves), but he failed the test; after that, things quickly started to go downhill.

Makes sense to me; though thers may wish to add to or subtract from it.

We would rather that old threads be resurrected as opposed to new ones with the same title being opened, as we don't archive the old threads, but leave them for all to read.

I think there's no point in creating anything if one is not willing to share it.

If Fëanor had shared his Silmarils and put them on display in the middle of Tirion, Melkor would never have been able to steal them (or at least, not get away with it like he did as written).