Login | Register
 
Message Board | Latest Posts | Your Recent Posts | Rules

Thread: Feanor

Is this discussion interesting? Share it on Twitter!

Bottom of Page    Message Board > Characters > Feanor   << [1] [2] [3] >>
I appreciate it, mate! I'm glad u liked it!
U're right, Feanor was more like Aule than Morgoth! He did want to create, not destroy. The nihilistic thirst for Void made Melkor do all those nasty things; henceforth his desire to rule them all and, then, destrot them all! Kind of a 'Seek and Destroy' madness, if u ask me...
Feanor stopped at the rule part, I guess...
But still he became greedy! AulŽ never became greedyWink Smilie
Greed or obsession?
Aye you are correct Vee...it was perhaps not greed as much as it was obsession...but he hoarded all his gems in his castle and did not want anyone else to see the Sils....so it might be greed too....and selfishness......a corrupted elf he became....prolly the most vile and evil deed of Morgoth.....
I think more Pride before the Fall than outright greed, selfishness or obsession, the works of Feanor, were to his mind the finest creation/innovation any creature short of the Valar had produced... he coveted them because they were HIS and nobody elses... almost like his Pwecioussss...
Besides i think its no coincidence that the mighty and most loved of the Valar's children - Feanor (most loved at least before he was corrupted) has his story deeply paralleled with that of the Fall of the Morning Star - the Fallen Angel, Lucifer. In the context of their respective defiance of the Powers that Be.

Just a thought, and i'm no biblical nut or devil-worshipper before i get flamed to hell..ok ok ok?

Good and Evil Smilie
I see Melkor as more Lucifer.
To me Feanor is a lot like Lenin. Both started out trying to make something great for everyone and for eternity. However, as they had (more or less) accomplished that, they wanted it all for them selves. Paranoia strikes, and Lenin and his successor Stalin, as well as Feanor and his succsessors, his sons, spend all their time and energy to get their creation all for them selves. They do not trust anyone, and anyone that might even remotely come between them and their treasure/power are mercilessly killed. The "safeguarding" of their creations take top priority, and total control of their lives. Casualties and "collateral damage"(horrible word!!) include the destruction of whole nations and the killing of millions of russians/elves. All wort it, in their opinion, to reach the final goal..

Also both seem to be oblivious to the fact that in their creation was also the work of others..

(This post is not political. The ideology of communism and the practical rule of Stalin are very different, and anyway irrelevant to this comparison. Me only points to the similarity of the people/elves involved.)
Melkor was the Lucifer in Tolkien's world; yet, it's true, to some extent, that Feanor fell too!
As for his parallel with Lenin... hmmm, I still cannot put them together; they're just so different!

Now, back to Feanor and his well-renowned deeds that are to be sing ere the end of Arda!
Excellent mention of Lenin!
It seems really out of place until you think more about it. One of the central tenets of communism is that the internal enemy is always the most dangerous...i.e. you must destroy those who oppose you among your own people before tackling external enemies. So the Sons of Feanor are more interested in slaying fellow eldar to get one Silmaril back instead of tackling their father's killer (Morgoth), who is the real source of their problems.

Although I can't see Feanor agreeing to common ownership of all property.....!
Lol, Feanor and commun property: that'll be smth to see!
Yeah, they did overreact when it came to their own people, yet the lies of Melkor were doing much of the job!
Loni posted on 14/03/04 in another thread...

Quote:
Guys, don't you think we're all being a bit hard on Feanor? He did do the Kinslaying, but, may I ask, WHY? To defeat the ultimate Enemy, Morgoth. It was him who first called him Morgoth. It was just the frustration that things were not going well. He had to get to Morgoth quick, before the others turned away from him. It was either kill the people with ships, which wasn't necessarily the right thing to do, but in his mind, which is more important? Them turning way from him and joining the ship guys, and their culture being lost with theirs, and the Ultimate ENemy whom he loathed still unchallenged, or the ship people dead, and Morgoth dead as well? (Or so he saw it)

Guys, I really understand you not liking Feanor, but the Silmarils were his greatest creation, and you must remember that this is Morgoth, as powerful as Lucifer we're talking about. If Morgoth wants you to cause havoc, you're going to. His lieutenant turned Saruman, a Maiar. Feanor was just an elf. WHo can blame him? He still had good intentions, which is more than we could say of Saruman, and Morgoth is much stronger than Sauron.


Virumor replied

Quote:

Quote:

Guys, don't you think we're all being a bit hard on Feanor? He did do the Kinslaying, but, may I ask, WHY? To defeat the ultimate Enemy, Morgoth. It was him who first called him Morgoth. It was just the frustration that things were not going well. He had to get to Morgoth quick, before the others turned away from him. It was either kill the people with ships, which wasn't necessarily the right thing to do, but in his mind, which is more important? Them turning way from him and joining the ship guys, and their culture being lost with theirs, and the Ultimate ENemy whom he loathed still unchallenged, or the ship people dead, and Morgoth dead as well? (Or so he saw it)


First of all, killing his own kin can never be justified. Second, FŽanor knew he could never beat or kill a Vala. FŽanor caused the kinslaying just to get revenge and to get his stupid jewelry back. He acted just as Morgoth would at that point.

We're not hard on FŽanor at all. Murder, war and violence can never be justified, certainly not for the reason FŽanor caused it for. (apparently FŽanor liked going into war without the approval of the United Nations too... although not for chimerical reasons !)

Quote:

His lieutenant turned Saruman, a Maiar. Feanor was just an elf. WHo can blame him? He still had good intentions, which is more than we could say of Saruman, and Morgoth is much stronger than Sauron.


OK, i think you're confusing Saruman with Sauron ? Saruman was a Maia of AulŽ and never joined Morgoth.

Anyway, i think this discussion fits more into the FŽanor thread, as we are currently discussing the House of Fingolfin in here right now. Maybe Val or another council member can move this posts ?
Saruman did try to persuade Gandalf to join with him and with Sauron, suggesting they can bide their time for the ultimate purpose - Knowledge, Rule, Order.........

Has anyone ever seen, read or heard of an elven child. I don't mean the cottage of lost play and all that, I mean where are the references to elven children, did JR have a few issues?
Not really, I mean the youngest Elves I can think of are Elurťd and ElurŪn, who were left to starve in the woods of Doriath.
Quote:
Has anyone ever seen, read or heard of an elven child

Welcome to Planet-Tolkien, elgoluin.
Just because we don't see Elvish children running around Rivendell or Lothlorien in The Lord of The Rings, The Hobbit or The Silmarillion doesn't mean that Tolkien did not include them in Middle Earth. I haven't got around to reading any of the HOME books but I suspect there would be information in them (possibly Morgoth's Ring) which Christopher compiled from his father's notes.
Val may be able to better answer your inquiry.
Morgoth's Ring does mention Elven children and the rate at which they mature to adulthood. In the section concerning Elven rebirth after leaving the halls of Mandos, I seem to recall it mentioning children too, because this is where Tolkien ran into some difficulties (should a child from a reborn fea be a new entity, based on the genes of its parents, or the old spirit, with its memories etc).

I'll look up the details when I have more time if you wish to know more.
May we go back to the topic, pls? hehe
Well, let's see... With the risk of repeating myself, I do think Feanor never premeditated the Kinslaying; he went out of Alqualonde after Olwe's rejection of lending his ships to the Noldor and brooded, as is stated in The Silmarillion. When his host assembled, he entered the city and started manning the ships; the battle began when the Teleri pushed the Noldor into the sea. I'm not trying to justify Feanor's deeds (the Kinslaying is the only one I can find no excuse for), yet I don't want people imagining his ideal in life was butchering Teleri.

Namarie!
OK, guess who's back?! And it's not even Dagor Dagorath... hehehe...

Anyways, I've missed all of you, guys, and I though "what better way to show I'm alive than posting in this thread?" Feanor is a complex, intriguing character; it's hard to say we've exhausted the subject... Wink Smilie

Glad to be back... May the swords of the Noldor protect you and may the Valar bestow their grace upon you!

Namarie!
Quote:
Well, let's see... With the risk of repeating myself, I do think Feanor never premeditated the Kinslaying; he went out of Alqualonde after Olwe's rejection of lending his ships to the Noldor and brooded, as is stated in The Silmarillion. When his host assembled, he entered the city and started manning the ships; the battle began when the Teleri pushed the Noldor into the sea. I'm not trying to justify Feanor's deeds (the Kinslaying is the only one I can find no excuse for), yet I don't want people imagining his ideal in life was butchering Teleri.

It's true FŽanor didn't premeditate the Kinslaying, but he also didn't try to stop it once it started... imo he believed the Teleri got what they deserved as they didn't approve of the Noldor using their ships. He thought they owed the Noldor because the latter help in building the fair city of AlqualondŽ.

FŽanor was the greatest of the Noldor when it comes to talent, but not when it comes to wisdom (that would be Galadriel or Finrod) - for him his Silmarils, wonderfully crafted jewelry but in the end just dead things, were more important than the fate of the Noldor. The line "if i cannot bend heaven, i shall move hell" really applies to him. He moved it alright.

Imo, FŽanor is the Silmarillion version of Gollum, beguiled and obsessed by his "preciousss" Silmarils. But he was worse than Gollum, as he dragged not only his House, but also the Houses of Finarfin and Fingolfin into the misery. And unlike Gollum, he was beautiful on the outside, but rotten on the inside - a fact only Galadriel was able to percieve.
I don't think Feanor was rotten inside. He was good. But he was a man of special skills. Such people usually are the best in their field but are often eccentric. Then again, I don't know if Tolkien thought of this when he created Feanor's character.

Now we're talking about the Silmarils. Firstly, I think it's very much in Feanor's rights to deny the Valar the Silmarils after the trees were killed. One would be extraordinarily unselfish to do away with your greatest creation. One who does such a thing, is great, but one who doesn't, is just human (Whatever, you get the meaning. Now don't get too literal and tell me that Feanor is an Elf!). I honestly find Manwe lame! Say, when Morgoth fled to Beleriand with the Silmarils, why didn't he do something as in, chase him there to retrieve the Silmarils? Valar wanted the Silmarils to try and resurrect the trees. Does this mean that they were only being selfish when they wanted to destroy the Silmarils (apparently so... otherwise, wouldn't Feanor hand them to the Valar to help them resurrect the trees?) to resurrect the trees, but didn't want to do anything to recover them when Morgoth fled with them. Now people might argue here that the Valar might have done something later had Feanor not made haste and led the Noldor over. Well, he wanted to recover his greatest creation and had he received any sign that the Valar would act upon it, wouldn't he wait? Also, like I said, he wasn't the most matured person. He wanted to retrieve his greatest creation and take revenge of his father's slaying (That's one point, I think, people forget about). What's wrong with that? It merely followed that he happened to be the king and the Noldor followed him. Kinslaying wasn't done by Feanor alone, but the Noldor were involved. True he didn't do to stop the kinslaying but whoever said that he was the most matured person. Also, he was blinded by anger. The Teleri did their part in only making him more angry and blind! Of course it was within their rights to do that. But in the end many of the Teleri died needlessly, didn't they?

There was a quote about Diego Maradona... "He blossomed into an artist, but he didn't manage to mature into a man". I think this applies to Feanor. Only add the hate, anger and mistrust in the Valar and you have a deadly combination that gives you the events in the Silmarillion and later!

I think the Elves that remained behind with the Valar did as much kinslaying as the Noldor who went over with Feanor. They eventually dropped to the Feanorians' standard when they would just sit and feast and enjoy in Valinor and let their kin in Beleriand die. How valid is that? People make mistakes. And the wise manage to make them realise their mistakes and help them to repair the damage. What did the Valar do? The exact opposite. Don't tell me that Feanor was rotten. He simply wasn't matured enough and the people who were suppose to be wise didn't help him realise it. They simply put a curse on him!

Technically speaking, I think the Valar were responsible for Feanor's deeds. They let Melkor free. Feanor didn't trust him did he? I don't think I find Feanor wrong for not trusting the Valar and possibly holding them responsible for his father's death. I can't say for sure, because I am not the one who wrote the Silmarillion! Anyways. Time for me to do some work here. I'll leave you this much to think upon!
To answer Vir first: Feanor was not rotten inside; he was overproud, even among the Noldor, an otherwise proud people themselves. And, hey, Gollum didn't make the Ring; he just stole it from his friend, killing him in the process. If Feanor's to compare with someone, that would be Sauron (though only as the creational part is concerned; the Silmarils were totally different things, made with no intention of enthralling wills and stuff like that).

Quote:
One would be extraordinarily unselfish to do away with your greatest creation. One who does such a thing, is great, but one who doesn't, is just human.


You're right: giving up your greatest creation is one of the most unselfish things to do; yet not everyone can do it. However, Feanor was not always like that; if you recall, he enjoyed more in the creational act than in the actual posession of the things he made. That's why I'm sure he was true in his friendship with the Teleri, and in helping them rise Alqualonde he only sought for a chance to bring more beauty to life.

Quote:
He wanted to retrieve his greatest creation and take revenge of his father's slaying (That's one point, I think, people forget about). What's wrong with that? It merely followed that he happened to be the king and the Noldor followed him. Kinslaying wasn't done by Feanor alone, but the Noldor were involved. True he didn't do to stop the kinslaying but whoever said that he was the most matured person. Also, he was blinded by anger.


Yeah, unfortunatelly people forget too easily that Feanor wanted to get revenge for Finwe's slaying. It's so much simpler to say he was going only after the Silmarils and leave the nobler reasons to Fingolfin and Finarfin! One thing we should never pass over is Feanor's love for his father:

Quote:
Then Feanor ran from the Ring of Doom, and fled into the night; for his father was dearer to him than the Light of Valinor or the peerless works of his hands; and who among sons, of Elves or of Men, have held their fathers of greater worth?


Please keep that in mind before saying he cared only for the Silmarils...

Quote:
Technically speaking, I think the Valar were responsible for Feanor's deeds. They let Melkor free. Feanor didn't trust him did he? I don't think I find Feanor wrong for not trusting the Valar and possibly holding them responsible for his father's death.


That's one of the hardest things, I guess: admitting the Valar were not perfect and that they could err. Yet no one is perfect but Eru Iluvatar, so they could (and did) make mistakes; though, in their case, I think they were sincerely good in their intentions, unlike Melkor. He probably was true also, at first, wishing to please Eru in his own way; but he soon turned all of his gifts to malice and mischief. Anyway, I've said it many times: the Valar were wrong to bring the Eldar to Valinor, as they were also wrong in releasing Melkor from the Halls of Mandos. Yet, I add, they were wrong from our human, therefore limited, perspective. After all, we're so eager to judge and mark people who err, rarely allowing them a second chance. It was hard for the Valar (especially for Manwe) to condamn Melkor for eternity; they were brothers in Eru's thought and he knew Melkor before he went astray. Was he so wrong to believe (and hope) the evil in his brother could be cured? I think not.

And now for a little thought of my own, before I end this somewhat long post. I was just pondering, these last few days, Feanor's answer to the Valar:

Quote:
And it may be that Eru has set in me a fire greater than thou knowest.


I often had the strange feeling that Feanor was different than the other Elves (which made him look haughty and with a superiority complex) just because of that: Eru may indeed have kindled his spirit with a much brighter spark. I may be wrong, of course, but then again, who knows all the ways of God?

Namarie!
Quote:
I honestly find Manwe lame! Say, when Morgoth fled to Beleriand with the Silmarils, why didn't he do something as in, chase him there to retrieve the Silmarils?

He would have done that, like as he immediately sent OromŽ and Tulkas after Morgoth and Ungolianth, but FŽanor and Co didnít give him any time. Because FŽanor rushed into things, he lost the Valarís help.

Quote:
Valar wanted the Silmarils to try and resurrect the trees. Does this mean that they were only being selfish when they wanted to destroy the Silmarils (apparently so... otherwise, wouldn't Feanor hand them to the Valar to help them resurrect the trees?) to resurrect the trees, but didn't want to do anything to recover them when Morgoth fled with them.

The Valar only asked FŽanor. They understood what it would mean for FŽanor to have his greatest creation destroyed Ė but, the thing is his creation would not be destroyed : it would only be used to heal another great creation, the Two Trees. It would mean the greatest Elvish creation would be used to save the greatest Vala creation. FŽanor didnít grasp his creation would never be destroyed.

Besides, FŽanor didnít hand them over because theyíd be destroyed. Thatís not the main reason : he didnít want to hand it over because it was Ďhisí. He only allowed it to be seen by himself and his father, like a little child with a lollypop. He clinged to his creation like Gollum clinged to his Ďpreciousí. A recurring theme in JRRTís works, clinging to things.

Quote:
He wanted to retrieve his greatest creation and take revenge of his father's slaying (That's one point, I think, people forget about). What's wrong with that?

Itís wrong because the whole mission was doomed to fail. No one of the children of Eru could ever defeat a Vala. But FŽanor just chose to ignore this and almost dragged the entire House of the Noldor with him in his doom. Why??? Because he was proud, or just moronic? Or both? More over, it seems he was aware of all of this, but delibaretely wanted to continu with it, and drag everyone with him, because he wanted everyone to go down with him in flames. The ultimate egocentrical act.

Or maybe i shouldn't give FŽanor so much credit, and maybe it is true he was only proud : then it is the most pathetic act ever - he isn't big enough to ask the Valar's help, so he gathers every spoon he can find to empty the sea.

Besides, his father was slain, but not dead. It was possible for FinwŽ to return from the halls of Mandos (which he never did, because he met his first wife MŪriel Serinde there Ė also selfish ? ;-)). It seems FŽanor wanted to see daddy again by dying as quickly as possible, by defying the Valar and go after Morgoth Ė and it worked even ! Briljant plan ! !

Quote:
Kinslaying wasn't done by Feanor alone, but the Noldor were involved. True he didn't do to stop the kinslaying but whoever said that he was the most matured person. Also, he was blinded by anger. The Teleri did their part in only making him more angry and blind! Of course it was within their rights to do that. But in the end many of the Teleri died needlessly, didn't they?


If you are trying to make FŽanor look allright in the Kinslaying, you are failing. The Teleri were right in not allowing the Noldor to use their ships, as they didnít want to defy the Valar themselves, like you said, and it should have ended there. The only reason the killing took place was because of FŽanor, and not because of the Teleri. And i fail to see how being angry or Ďimmatureí is a reason for killing.

FŽanor started the Kinslaying, he is the one to blame there. Period. Just as he was responsible for the burning of the Teleri ships, which showed he didnít give a penny for the lives of the Elves who had died at the Kinslaying, and for the lives of his half-brother FIngolfin and his House, who he obliged to cross the HelcaraxŽ, where numerous Elves died (Idril lost her mother there, for instance).

How is it that FŽanor isnít rotten inside ?

Quote:
I think the Elves that remained behind with the Valar did as much kinslaying as the Noldor who went over with Feanor. They eventually dropped to the Feanorians' standard when they would just sit and feast and enjoy in Valinor and let their kin in Beleriand die.

If these Elves wouldíve come with FŽanor or Fingolfin, they would also have died in the fight against Morgoth, it wouldnít have made any difference at all. What FŽanor did, was hopeless from start to finish.

And i doubt any of the Eldar would ę sit, enjoy and feast Ľ after the Darkening of Valinor and the terrible events surrounding it.

Quote:
Technically speaking, I think the Valar were responsible for Feanor's deeds. They let Melkor free. Feanor didn't trust him did he? I don't think I find Feanor wrong for not trusting the Valar and possibly holding them responsible for his father's death

FŽanor didnít trust anyone, safe his father. Anyway, how can the Valar be responsible for FŽanorís deeds ? FŽanor himself would greatly disapprove of this theory ! He made all of his choices himself, he was never forced or led by anyone of the Valar, even though they had the power to do so.

The fact that FŽanor compared Morgoth to the other Valar, shows his complete lack of wisdom and understanding ; never ever, safe once, did the Valar command the Eldar, and when they did, they did it at the worst possible time ever, but only because they were deeply hurt by the destruction of the Two Trees.

Melkor was only freed because ManwŽ believed he would rebuke from his past sins. There wasnít such chance, a fact Tulkas and Ulmo understood, but not ManwŽ because he couldnít grasp the concept of totally evilness. ManwŽ can only be blamed that he is too good.

Quote:
To answer Vir first: Feanor was not rotten inside; he was overproud, even among the Noldor, an otherwise proud people themselves. And, hey, Gollum didn't make the Ring; he just stole it from his friend, killing him in the process. If Feanor's to compare with someone, that would be Sauron (though only as the creational part is concerned; the Silmarils were totally different things, made with no intention of enthralling wills and stuff like that).

He was rotten inside, only not from the very beginning. Only after Melkorís release, when the latter began spreading his subtle works of spreading malice and mischief, FŽanor became rotten and to tend to himself, his Silmarils and his father.

His actions during the Kinslaying at AlqualondŽ and the destruction of the ships of the Teleri are the products of a rotten mind.

And again, FŽanor can be compared to Gollum when it comes to clinging to his precioussss. At least Gollum was wise enough to understand that once Sauron got the Ring, it was over. FŽanor was not.

In the end, it all comes down to running after 3 stupid big stones with a bit of light in. Sure, they're so beautiful, but who cares? Life of one Noldo Elf are more important than those 3 stones.

FŽanor didn't even repent in the very end, when he saw the peaks of Thangorodrim and knew in his heart that they'd never be conquered by any Elf...

If only Finrod hath been the "chosen one" and not FŽanor !

Quote:
I often had the strange feeling that Feanor was different than the other Elves (which made him look haughty and with a superiority complex) just because of that: Eru may indeed have kindled his spirit with a much brighter spark. I may be wrong, of course, but then again, who knows all the ways of God?

What Eru gave FŽanor more in talent than others, it seems he gave him less wisdom and benevolence.

What he lacked, seems to have gone to his other 2 brothers, to the valiant Fingolfin and the wise Finarfin.

I think, maybe things would've been different if Fingolfin and Finarfin weren't his half-brothers, which is the reason he didn't care for them. If they'd been his true brothers, perhaps they'd form a triumvirate of the 3 mightiest elves ever, and maybe then things would've gone into different directions... although it is hard seeing FŽanor taking the advice of anyone other besides himself... and perhaps FŽanor wouldn't have been the person he became if he didn't drag all fŽa out of his mother (maybe he should've been named NosfŽaratu)... who knows.
Quote:
The Valar only asked FŽanor. They understood what it would mean for FŽanor to have his greatest creation destroyed Ė but, the thing is his creation would not be destroyed: it would only be used to heal another great creation, the Two Trees.


Ok, first of all: I don't think any Vala (except Aule, of course) really understood what they were asking Feanor; who knows, maybe Tulkas considered the Silmarils just "3 stupid big stones with a bit of light in". That may lead us to think the Trees were nothing but two stupid big plants with more of that light in. I'm sorry, Vir, but I don't think that's how the Valar would've put it.

Quote:
He clinged to his creation like Gollum clinged to his Ďpreciousí. A recurring theme in JRRTís works, clinging to things.


Still, I don't remember where does it say in LotR, Silm or any other of Tolkien's works that Gollum made the Ring; he just stole it and would not be parted from it. Feanor, on the other hand, actually created the Silmarils and they were his, by right, from the very first. Or should we accept Melkor's point of view, that everything made by the others is by right his?

Quote:
Or maybe i shouldn't give FŽanor so much credit, and maybe it is true he was only proud : then it is the most pathetic act ever - he isn't big enough to ask the Valar's help, so he gathers every spoon he can find to empty the sea.


*bitter smile* You know, this is quite tiring: when Fingolfin is valiant, Feanor is reckless; when Finarfin is wise, Feanor just knows too much; when someone's strong willed, resiliant to evil, he's just stubborn... and so on... and on... and on... Fingolfin rides in the end to fight Morgoth and thus finds his death; never forget that, no matter how different the step-brothers were, they've died defying Morgoth and his minions. So, please stop saying one of them was stupid and the other bright... Things are not always black and white; there are numerous shade of grey between. See HoMe vol. 12, Peoples of Middle-earth:

Quote:
Fingolfin had prefixed the name Finwe to Nolofinwe before the Exiles reached Middle-earth. This was in pursuance of his claim to be the chieftain of all the Noldor after the death of Finwe, and so enraged Feanor that it was no doubt one of the reasons for his treachery in abandoning Fingolfin and stealing away with all the ships.[...]

As he (Feanor) said with some justice: "My brother's claim rests only upon a decree of the Valar; but of what force is that for those who have rejected them and seek to escape from their prison-land?" But Fingolfin answered: "I have not rejected the Valar, nor their authority in all matters where it is just for them to use it. But if the Eldar were given free choice to leave Middle-earth and go to Aman, and accepted it because of the loveliness and bliss of that land, their free choice to leave it and return to Middle-earth, when it has become dark and desacrated, cannot be taken away. Moreover I have an errand on Middle-earth, the avenging of the blood of my father upon Morgoth, whom the Valar let loose among us. Feanor seeks first his stolen treasures."


I agree with you on the Kinslaying and on the Valar's attitude towards Melkor, as I've said in my last post. No need to repeat myself...

Quote:
He was rotten inside, only not from the very beginning. Only after Melkorís release, when the latter began spreading his subtle works of spreading malice and mischief, FŽanor became rotten and to tend to himself, his Silmarils and his father.


Oh, here's smth from Unfinished Tales:

Quote:
In him (Feanor) she (Galadriel) perceived a darkness that she hated and feared, though she did not perceive that the shadow of the same evil had fallen upon the minds of all the Noldor, and upon her own.


What you call rott, Tolkien chose to call "darkness" and "shadow of evil". Oh, and that did not apply to Feanor alone!

Quote:
I think, maybe things would've been different if Fingolfin and Finarfin weren't his half-brothers, which is the reason he didn't care for them. If they'd been his true brothers, perhaps they'd form a triumvirate of the 3 mightiest elves ever, and maybe then things would've gone into different directions... although it is hard seeing FŽanor taking the advice of anyone other besides himself... and perhaps FŽanor wouldn't have been the person he became if he didn't drag all fŽa out of his mother (maybe he should've been named NosfŽaratu)... who knows.


Oh, so we finally agree on smth, Vir! How nice... Wink Smilie Yeah, if they were his full brothers he may have reacted a bit different. Plus, a triumvirate of these three, with coordonated action from all Noldor, would've been much more dangerous to Melkor/Morgoth than were their separate actions, in the end. Oh, and the last line was priceless... *laughs* NosfŽaratu!! HAHAHA!

Namarie!
Quote:
maybe Tulkas considered the Silmarils just "3 stupid big stones with a bit of light in".
Thatís what they also were, in the end. They had no use before the destruction of the Two Trees. Don't forget without the Two Trees, there would never be any Sils.

Quote:
That may lead us to think the Trees were nothing but two stupid big plants with more of that light in.

No, it wouldnít. The Two Trees had their use : lightsource, not to mention their light contained the blessing of the Valar. Hardly comparable to FŽanorís 3 rocks.

Quote:
I'm sorry, Vir, but I don't think that's how the Valar would've put it.

Where did i say the Valar put it like that ?

Quote:
See HoMe vol. 12, Peoples of Middle-earth:

Letís focus on whatís in the Sil instead :

Quote:
Nevertheless he met Fingolfin before the throne of ManwŽ, and was reconciled, in word; and Fingolfin set at naught the unsheathing of the sword. For Fingolfin held forth his hand, saying: 'As I promised, I do now. I release thee, and remember no grievance.'
Then FŽanor took his hand in silence; but Fingolfin said: 'Half-brother in blood, full brother in heart will I be. Thou shalt lead and I will follow. May no new grief divide as.'

This totally contradicts your HOME quote ; as we are discussing the Silmarillion, HOME should not be used as it contains totally different versions of Silmarillion stories, and it is not clear which ones JRRT regarded as final. It is totally out of place and i donít consider it a part of the Tolkien canon.

Fingolfin never wanted to rule the Noldor on his own. No, that was FŽanor :

Quote:
But FŽanor followed him, and at the door of the king's house he stayed him; and the point of his bright sword he set against Fingolfin's breast 'See, half-brother!' he said. 'This is sharper than thy tongue. Try but once more to usurp my place and the love of my father, and maybe it will rid the Noldor of one who seeks to be the master of thralls.'


Quote:
What you call rott, Tolkien chose to call "darkness" and "shadow of evil". Oh, and that did not apply to Feanor alone!

It didnít, but somehow FŽanor was responsible for the most rotten things, whilst other Eldar like Finrod, Galadriel and Fingolfin never did anything like thatÖ but instead they did only great deedsÖ i wonder why. He quickly spiralled down to hell.

Quote:
You know, this is quite tiring: when Fingolfin is valiant, Feanor is reckless; when Finarfin is wise, Feanor just knows too much; when someone's strong willed, resiliant to evil, he's just stubborn... and so on... and on... and on... Fingolfin rides in the end to fight Morgoth and thus finds his death; never forget that, no matter how different the step-brothers were, they've died defying Morgoth and his minions. So, please stop saying one of them was stupid and the other bright... Things are not always black and white; there are numerous shade of grey

I never said ę one of them was stupid and the other bright Ľ. Youíre putting words into my mouth. I said I hold Fingolfin and Finarfin in much higher regard than FŽanor : for one, they didnít start a kinslaying or burnt any ships, and even after Fingolfin was betrayed by FŽanor, he still was faithful to the promise he made to his half-brother, even after the latter had put a sword against his chest.

I find FŽanor's actions of rushing after Morgoth, with no hope at succeeding in his goals, of which he was aware, a severely stupid action.
I look at Fingolfin's duel with Morgoth differently : Fingolfin thought the Noldor were completely finished, so he wanted to make a last, desperate stand. End with a bang, as so to speak. That was not stupid, it was either dying like that or dying by Orc blades or Balrog whips. Anyone would choose dying by a Hammer...

The more i think about NosfŽaratu, the more i dislike him. Heís an arrogant, evil genius (at least, only when it comes to making things). An anti-hero. A Shakespearian villain. I think Tulkas shouldíve given him a couple of severe butt spanks, followed by a couple free rounds of Greek-Roman wrestling.

But of course, he wasnít as worse as some of his sonsÖ

And is this becoming a two-person thread ?
Ok, Vir... I hope you don't take any of that personal, cause it wasn't intended to be. I just thought I should make this clear since I'm not planning on starting a fight or something like that...

As for Silmarillion, who said that was Tolkien's canon? I mean, yeah, I love the book and still think it's the greatest one ever written, but Christopher found fragments of his father's work AFTER (!!) he published it. Moreover, some of these fragments were dated within a few years from Tolkien's death and they showed the evolution of his conceptions on his own created world. I might not see Galadriel as Middle-earth's Mary, but this was the way things turned to right before the Professor died. And we must respect an author's word, cause it's the only one to count, actually... Either that, or we could write our own stories. (Athrabeth an Andreth, the dialogue between Finrod and Andreth from Morgoth's Ring was particularilly well written and it should've been included in the Silmarillion, especially since it didn't contradict that book in any way.)

However, to make sure, I'd like for Val to come and enlighten us on what can and cannot be considered canonical in Tolkien. Please! Smile Smilie

Namarie!
Quote:
However, to make sure, I'd like for Val to come and enlighten us on what can and cannot be considered canonical in Tolkien.

But the point is, that when we are discussing FŽanor within the context of the Silmarillion, we cannot suddenly use fragments of HOME or UT that contradict what's in the Sil or that are out of context. We should stay in the context of the Silmarillion.

No mixing of apples and oranges.

In the Sil, Christopher Tolkien put all his father's stories together which together formed a continuous story. HOME contains stories which sometimes completely diverge from what's in the Silmarillion : the quote you gave earlier about Fingolfin is a clear example.

Another example is Galadriel : there are several stories about her, but when we are discussing her in the Silmarillion context, we use JRRT's story of her like it's mentioned in the SIl, in which she came to Beleriand together with Fingolfin's group, instead of eg sailing away with Celeborn to Beleriand.

The only (non-academic) stories that are 100% canonical, because they were published before the author's death, are :

* Songs for the Philologists, with E.V. Gordon et al. (1936)
* The Hobbit or There and Back Again (1937)
* Leaf by Niggle (1945)
* The Lay of Aotrou and Itroun, published in Welsh Review (1945)
* Farmer Giles of Ham (1949)
* The Homecoming of Beorhtnoth, Beorhthelm's Son, published with the essay Ofermod (1953)
* The Lord of the Rings (1954)
* The Adventures of Tom Bombadil and Other Verses from the Red Book (1962)
* The Road Goes Ever On, with Donald Swann (1967)
* Tree and Leaf (1964)
* Tolkien on Tolkien (1966)
* Smith of Wootton Major (1967)

Miruvor said:
Quote:
But the point is, that when we are discussing FŽanor within the context of the Silmarillion, we cannot suddenly use fragments of HOME or UT that contradict what's in the Sil or that are out of context. We should stay in the context of the Silmarillion.


But one doesn't have to stay within one text. Critics and theorists search inter- and intratextually all the time. Of course, it doesn't always make sense taken out of context, but hey, sometimes it broadens one's horizons.

And...just curious about canonical works -- Not all works that are considered "canonical" were published during the life of the author, correct? I think there would be many works left out of the canon if this was the case.

Okay, back to Feanor...I agree with you about the characters, MirÖor Vir. I definitely hold Fingolfin and Finarfin in much higher regard than Feanor. To me, they have much more honor. When I read the Silmarillion, I was shocked and disgusted by Feanorís actions. I guess thatís what kept me hooked to reading it though, but it was devastating.
Quote:
And...just curious about canonical works -- Not all works that are considered "canonical" were published during the life of the author, correct? I think there would be many works left out of the canon if this was the case.

Only HOME, UT, the Silmarillion, Father Christmas Letters and Roverandom.

But these were stories JRRT worked on his entire life, more for his own enjoyment than to publish them. It's unknown what stories he considered to be final versions; perhaps there weren't even any final versions at all. Christopher Tolkien had to make a choice what stories to put together to form the most coherent story which became the Sil.

Stories of HOME and the Sil often contradict or are completely different. Both books are accepted as part of the canon, but the HOME is mostly used for providing background information, when applicable. For instance, HOME contains a more complete list of members of the House of FinwŽ -- it has Findis, IrimŽ and others added that aren't in the Sil. But generally the Sil is accepted as the narration of what happened before LOTR.

UT's stories are stories which fit in the Sil, but weren't originally added because they were found after the Sil was first published.

Quote:
Okay, back to Feanor...I agree with you about the characters, MirÖor Vir. I definitely hold Fingolfin and Finarfin in much higher regard than Feanor. To me, they have much more honor.

Well in HOME it's mentioned they beat their wives, so looks like they're not so great after all.... Shaking Head Smilie
Just to clarify...I actually meant all works in the literary canon and not just Tolkien; works are included in the literary canon that were published posthumously, correct? Why is Tolkien an exception?

It doesn't really say that they beat their wives in HOME...you're pulling my leg...aren't you? I started laughing when I read that, and then I thought, wait, is he serious? (But that's what's great about many of the things you write.) And yes, Mir, that would be a perfect example (whether true or not) of pulling quotes out of context, but it would be a very important one to disregard in any context if it was true, right? People can choose to stick to one text or they can choose to incorporate many -- it's their choice as long as they make a good, logical, thoughtful argument and recognize that the quote they are incorporating into their argument may be out of context. I actually find it more thought-provoking when people can incorporate contradicting quotes from different texts into their arguments (if they do it well of course).
Quote:
Just to clarify...I actually meant all works in the literary canon and not just Tolkien; works are included in the literary canon that were published posthumously, correct? Why is Tolkien an exception?

And what works are in 'thť' literary canon then ? Some ppl don't consider the Simarillion, let alone HOME, to be part of the Tolkien canon as he himself didn't put it together. Some ppl don't even consider any of his works to be literature... it all depends from person to person what's considered literature and what not.

Some ppl might even find Hairy Potty to be literature.

Quote:
I actually find it more thought-provoking when people can incorporate contradicting quotes from different texts into their arguments (if they do it well of course).

This thread is in 'Characters' so in fact we can do what we want, and take quotes from whatever Tolkien book, as long as it's on topic.

I actually thought this thread was in "the Silmarillion", so everything i said before should be disregarded.

And now back to FŽanor : he was really nasty, wasn't he ? Very Evil Smilie

Quote:
It doesn't really say that they beat their wives in HOME...you're pulling my leg...aren't you?

No, only a FŽanorian would ever beat his wife... look at how rough and disrespectful Curufin and Celegorm treated Lķthien for instance --- "Hey she looks pretty, so i need to have her." Men ! Shaking Head Smilie

I won't even mention Caranthir 'the Dark'.

Only Maedhros and Maglor weren't monstra, really. Amrod and Amras get the benefit of the doubt, as there isn't much known about them.
Bonkers! I don't remember where I was the last time I read this thread. I'll read all these posts when I have a bit more time on my hands. Now, I just read Vir's reply to my post and I'd like to make clear as to what I meant by that kinslaying thing.

Firstly, I'm not trying to say that Feanor was innocent. But, I think rather than waiting for Earendil to come and ask for their help, the Vala could perhaps have done something much earlier? I mean, come on... what if Earendil had never come? It would have been Morgoth to rule ME then!

Btw Vir, you took my last post, chopped into little pieces and threw it in the dustbin. Hahahahaha! That's why I love this place! Big Smile Smilie Thumbs Up Smilie
Quote:
Firstly, I'm not trying to say that Feanor was innocent. But, I think rather than waiting for Earendil to come and ask for their help, the Vala could perhaps have done something much earlier? I mean, come on... what if Earendil had never come? It would have been Morgoth to rule ME then!

It looks like you forget the role Ulmo played...

It was because of Ulmo Ešrendil came into existence, as he sent Tuor to Gondolin, and hence by his doing the War of Wrath began and the Elves, Men and Dwarves were saved.

Even ManwŽ played a role, as his Eagles, led by Thorondor, greatly helped as well.

So, the Valar did something alright; they only sent in the cavalry after the FŽanorians and the ones who were dragged with them into the chasm, had suffered enough : the only 2 FŽanorians left then promptly thanked the Valar for their help by stealing the 2 Silmarils taken from Morgoth's crown..... which never fails to crack me up!
Hmmm. Fair enough. I had forgotten about that. But then again, if you think about it , it all comes down to the situation in Eru's Thoughts thread. Free will... yes, no? One can argue about it all being Eru's doing. Oh well! I guess the discussion about this is probably over here!
Quote:
I had forgotten about that. But then again, if you think about it , it all comes down to the situation in Eru's Thoughts thread. Free will... yes, no? One can argue about it all being Eru's doing.

Eru is dead.

And heh, all my contributions in that thread are too. Bonkers!
Jumping Flame Smilie No! No! No! Jumping Flame Smilie Eru, just like Frodo, lives! Angel Smilie
Glad to see this thread caught your attention... again! Big Smile Smilie

Well, see, Vir: the way you put it not even Sil is canonical. So there's not much to say on that topic... Of course, one might consider what the author himself might've made of the tale, since he was already changing some of the stories. I mean, I like the version of Galadriel from the Sil and early UT, but what if that whole Virgin Mary like character was Tolkien's final perspective on her? *sighs* We'll never know, I guess... but at least it gives us smth to talk about! Wink Smilie

Eruwen, don't get me wrong: Fingolfin and Finarfin were both noble Elves, wise and valiant. Yet I think they could've better helped the Noldor if they had not undermined Feanor's legitimate claim to the throne of his father. (I'm sorry, but if we talk about Elves, you'll see it's the only case where power goes not to the firstborn, but to the secondborn; that would mean that Elves princes had to pray their fathers have no other sons, or else... :funnylaughSmile Smilie I can't justify all of Feanor's actions (eg. the Kinslaying), but to stir the Spirit of Fire was not very wise! What did Finarfin realise by staying behind, except earning the Valar's forgiveness? Except Galadriel, how many of his sons survived in Beleriand? Couldn't they have had more use for their father's wisdom in Middle-earth than to know he's safe back home? And how many Elves from Fingolfin's line made it to the end of the Second Age? Valiant, yes... but so were Feanor's sons... and that proved of no worth in the end. I still think that the Noldor could've done irreparable damage to Morgoth if united.

Oh, and... Grondy... *seriously looking* Don't worry! Eru's not dead; He's on vacation!

Namarie!
Quote:
Well, see, Vir: the way you put it not even Sil is canonical. So there's not much to say on that topic...

I think that was my point : some might consider it not to be canonical.

Quote:
I mean, I like the version of Galadriel from the Sil and early UT, but what if that whole Virgin Mary like character was Tolkien's final perspective on her?

Gimli would surely agree with that theory..

Quote:
Fingolfin and Finarfin were both noble Elves, wise and valiant. Yet I think they could've better helped the Noldor if they had not undermined Feanor's legitimate claim to the throne of his father.

FŽanor had the right to rule over the Noldor after FinwŽ; but the only 'pure' Noldor were FŽanorians - hence FŽanor had the right to rule over his own family line, but not however, over the line of Fingolfin and Finarfin, as they're half Noldo and half Vanyarin.

And this was the way it was settled, until Fingolfin allied himself to FŽanor "half-brother in blood, full brother in heart" and accepted that FŽanor would rule.

But after FŽanor's death and the rash actions of his sons, Fingolfin rightly chose to end the alignment and ruled his own ppl, whilst Maedhros was technically the leader of all FŽanorians.

Quote:
Except Galadriel, how many of his sons survived in Beleriand?

Galadriel wasn't one of his sons, but it's true they all died. And i think they were all wise enough to realize they would one day fall under the Doom of Mandos, unlike the FŽanorians.
Quote:
FŽanor had the right to rule over the Noldor after FinwŽ; but the only 'pure' Noldor were FŽanorians - hence FŽanor had the right to rule over his own family line, but not however, over the line of Fingolfin and Finarfin, as they're half Noldo and half Vanyarin.

And this was the way it was settled, until Fingolfin allied himself to FŽanor "half-brother in blood, full brother in heart" and accepted that FŽanor would rule.

But after FŽanor's death and the rash actions of his sons, Fingolfin rightly chose to end the alignment and ruled his own ppl, whilst Maedhros was technically the leader of all FŽanorians.


Oh, but weren't Fingolfin or Finarfin Noldor? Cause if they didn't considered themselves so, there wouldn't have been much trouble: Feanor would've simply led all of the Noldor (with the exception of these princes' close relatives and servants, of course) and it would've been the end of it.

Yes, Fingolfin officially accepted Feanor's natural right to rule over Finwe's House if their father would die, yet when it came to following the promise, things suddenly complicated. All of a sudden, Feanor's claim to the kingship of the Noldor was not welcomed anymore, cause he had defied the Valar's ban to stay out of Tirion for 12 years. What Fingolfin has forgotten, unfortunatelly, was that banned or not banned, Feanor was still the ELDEST son and, therefore, HEIR of Finwe!

I have nothing to say on what happened after Feanor's death, since Maedhros choose to acknowledge his uncle's kingship over all the Noldor. Though, aparently, his brothers were not too delighted with this prospect and had some things to say... not all of them too kind! Very Evil Smilie Bad King Smilie Big Laugh Smilie

Namarie!

P.S.: Gimli had a harmless obsession with Galadriel, sooo... Rolling Eyes Smilie Wink Smilie
Quote:
What Fingolfin has forgotten, unfortunatelly, was that banned or not banned, Feanor was still the ELDEST son and, therefore, HEIR of Finwe!

Fingolfin forgot nothing. He stayed true to the oath the made to his big bully brother FŽanor; he even went as far as to follow FŽanor over the Helcaraxe. Whether Fingolfin liked it or not, he stayed true to his oath.

Intermezzo : there should be a movie made, "The Fantastic Tolkien Four", with FŽanor being the Elven Torch; Fingolfin being the Thing, stronger than all the rest; Finarfin being Mr Fantastic, the wisest of them all, and finally Galadriel who can turn invisible by putting on her One RIng...

Anyway, my point was that each brother should have ruled over their own families, but together the 3 brothers should have formed a triumvirate as well, dealing with issues which concerned ALL members of the 3 Houses.

This might have worked, as FŽanor didn't care about his half-brother's families anyway, but FinwŽ kinda blew it by expicitly choosing for his firstborn instead of trying to delegate....
Quote:
but FinwŽ kinda blew it by expicitly choosing for his firstborn instead of trying to delegate....
Sort of reminds me of Richard the Lionheart's daddy, King Henry-the-tooth and his family problems.
Well, you have a point there, Vir. Yet if Finwe would've done it, it would've been the only Elven King to ever do so. Of course, if that would've ment the brothers sticking together, then yeah, I'd say: Go for it, Noldor princes! Wink Smilie Tongue Smilie Big Smile Smilie

Namarie!
Quote:
Well, you have a point there, Vir. Yet if Finwe would've done it, it would've been the only Elven King to ever do so.

Maybe. We don't have any thorough documentation on the Vanyarin and Teleri dynasty, so i wouldn't know.

But i doubt it, as FinwŽ is the only Elf to have ever remarried, and hence starting dynasty troubles. I'm sure the other Elven royal lines wouldn't have any trouble.

Quote:
P.S.: Gimli had a harmless obsession with Galadriel, sooo...

Harmless? Well, threatening to attack …omer with an axe doesn't appear that harmless to me... the Sorceress of the Woods had him ensnared in her nets, that's for sure!

Cute Vir/Miruvor, but I understood Tolkien's White Wicked Witch of the West had golden curls or did Gimli's axe stray a tad bit too close to the scalp when he cut the three strands from her head. Smoke Smilie



(And I do know she actually plucked them herself.) Elf With a Big Grin Smilie
I think his reverance for her was quite touching actually...

But back to the Feanor stuff. Do you think it was Finwe's fault? I've always thought it was strange that he could love Indis after his great beloved Miriel died. I mean, he seemed so sad, when Miriel passed away.
I hate when I "discover" threads ten pages in (and what's with all the "January 1, 1970" stuff; many contain discussions of the Silm? Tolkien time-travel?) but I'll dive in anyway replying to what caught my attention from the last ten pages (and stayed in memory long enough to finish reading them all; my cache is WAY too small.)

Feanor is a complex character and thus ten pages of discussion barely scratch the surface. His freedom of choice extended to the freedom to choose poorly, even wrongly, and rather than being inherently good or evil, his agenda was his own and himself his only master, which often produces evil enough regardless of intent. Responsible for his own actions? You betcha, just like everyone, and the Kinslaying was indefensible. Prideful? Sure, but that wasn't what motivated or sustained the Exile. Whether or not he could defeat Morgoth or not was immaterial (as it was for the other Noldor) he HAD to fight him whether victory was possible or not. To borrow from my other favorite series, the phrase that comes to mind is

"Til shade is gone, til water is gone
Into the Shadow with teeth barred
Screaming defiance with the last breath
To spit in Sightblinderís eye on the last dayĒ
(Aiel saying found various places in The Wheel of Time, Robert Jordan)

Sometimes, whether you win is less important than whether you fight.

With that in mind, Feanor had a host of choices, none of them good, and if he made a dogs dinner of it, who among us would do better? He also had both great honor and extreme obligations, which he must meet regardless of the consequences. I don't see him as evil, I see him as living, doing the best he knew how while overwhelmed by rage and grief. While I don't believe in destiny, I DO believe some things are fated. Case in point: a question occurred to me last night as I reread The Fall of Gondolin in LT2. If Turgon remembered the Doom of Mandos (which it seems he did, as he quoted it) why on earth would he name the city he founded as the last defence against Morgoth "Gondolin?"

I also agree (naturally) with the view of Morgoth rather than Feanor as the archetypal devil. There was clearly a time in the Silmarillion when he was not evil, but in his journeys to the Void to seek the Flame Imperishable he was alone with his thoughts (e.g. no longer guided entirely by Eru) and learned far more of his original motives than he ever knew previously. The wisest of the Valar missed something pretty fundamental: the Flame Imperishable he sought was not something Eru "found" but an intrinisic part of his essence that NO ONE else could share or duplicate (in the interest of comity I'll state the comparison of which I'm thinking as "the Living ____," distinct from beings who are a product rather than the source of existence.) This view of Morgoth is reinforced by one the most memorable (for me) passages of the Silmarillion:

"Then again Ilývatar arose, and the Ainur perceived that his countenance was stern; and he lifted up his right hand, and behold! a third theme grew amid the confusion, and it was unlike the others. For it seemed at first soft and sweet, a mere rippling of gentle sounds in delicate melodies; but it could not be quenched, and it took to itself power and profundity. And it seemed at last that there were two musics progressing at one time before the seat of Iluvatar, and they were utterly at variance. The one was deep and wide and beautiful, but slow and blended with an immeasurable sorrow, from which its beauty chiefly came. The other had now achieved a unity of its own; but it was loud, and vain, and endlessly repeated; and it had little harmony, but rather a clamorous unison as of many trumpets braying upon a few notes. And it essayed to drown the other music by the violence of its voice, but it seemed that its most triumphant notes were taken by the other and woven into its own solemn pattern.

In the midst of this strife, whereat the halls of Ilývatar shook and a tremor ran out into the silences yet unmoved, Iluvatar arose a third time, and his face was terrible to behold. Then he raised up both his hands, and in one chord, deeper than the Abyss, higher than the Firmament, piercing as the light of the eye of Iluvatar, the Music ceased.

Then Iluvatar spoke, and he said: 'Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor; but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Ilývatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, that ye may see what ye have done. And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined."
(The Silmarilion, George Allen &Unwin, 1977 pp, 16,17)

I feel this concept is critical to a proper understanding of both the Silmarillion and Lord of the Rings, regardless of whether one wishes to carry it further. Without Feanor, there would be no Doom of Mandos, and no Silmarillion, and if the designs of both Feanor and Morgoth came to naught, the overall design was fulfilled in its entirety with a glory that none of its participants could have conceived singly.

Anyone who knows what happens to posts of more than one page please let me know; I also hate finding that out the hard way, but always do. Elf Rolling Eyes Smilie
The reason why FŽanor refuses to hand over the Silmarils, is erroneous :

Quote:
It seemed to him that he was beset in a ring of enemies, and the words of Melkor returned to him, saying that the Silmarils were not safe, if the Valar would possess them. 'And is he not Vala as are they,' said his thought, 'and does he not understand their hearts? Yea, a thief shall reveal thieves!' Then he cried aloud: 'This thing I will not do of free will. But if the Valar will constrain me, then shall I know indeed that Melkor is of their kindred.'

He placed the Valar on the same line as Melkor... no wonder he makes his oath in the name of Eru later on.

Interesting is, that the following happens after that :

Quote:
Then Mandos said: 'Thou hast spoken.'


It seems to me that this quote indicates that FŽanor was granted his last chance for repentance when the Valar asked him to give the Sils (even though the Valar, safe perhaps Mandos, wouldn't know that themselves), but he failed the test; after that, things quickly started to go downhill.
FŽanor is an underrated literary jewel. Period. I can justify every single one of his actions.
His pride is no greater than what he deserves. He is different and exceptional in every single way. As a character he is not ruined by his flaws, his flaws are but the only possible consequence of his genius. Face it, Hubris is epic.
His love for the Silmarils is often compared to Gollum's addiction to the One Ring. Such parallels are ridiculous. The Ring represents power and the lust for it is merely clinging to the illusion of power It creates. The Silmarills are a work like no other. They may appear "stupid stones with light" at first glance, but the more you ponder, the more you realize that they are in fact a self-portrait. Several excerpts indicate such a thing.
-The Silmarils and FŽanor have much in common; compare descriptions. Also the Silmarils demonstrate qualities that the light of Telperion and Laurelin lacks.
-Melkor hadn't even the slightest interest in the Trees, but fought Ungoliant herself for the Silmarils. Apparently the Silmarils are superior to the Trees in terms of aesthetics.
-In the Lays of Beleriand the Silmarils are mentioned and said to have sparked with "FŽanor's fire".
That's why I doubt they are mere vessels for the light of the Trees, mere sub-creation. FŽanor sub-creates by expressing himself, his fey and brilliant self, that Eru himself made. They are the magnificence of his heart given image and even more; can you imagine what they were like? They had the visual appeal of an artistic masterpiece, but in means of expression they were at least as abstract as music and architecture. How could FŽanor not love them most of all- nothing deserved his love more than he himself did, for nothing in Arda Marred could compare to him(and this is the cause for Manwe's weeping.)
The choice between the Silmarils and the Trees is a choice between perfection and utility, between retaining the image of the soul of one such as whom would never again appear in Arda and the desires of the many- to have the light and the bliss back. I consider the Silmarils a greatly misunderstood masterpiece.
His speech is brilliant.
The fire at Losgar is actually a copy of a Celtic myth, but it too can be justified by the overall misbehavior of Fingolfin's folk. Not only did FŽanor want no one else coming with them, but also he blocked the way back to Valinor for every coward in his party.
FŽanor's death. Moments before his death he was more himself than ever. Some fanfiction authors claim that if he had put his hands on the Silmarils at that time, they would've burned his hands. I, on the other hand, think he would've burned the Silmarils.

Well... am I right or what?

EDIT: I am also sorry for resurrecting an old thread, but this was the one that made me want to register and the one I found the forum through.
Makes sense to me; though thers may wish to add to or subtract from it.

We would rather that old threads be resurrected as opposed to new ones with the same title being opened, as we don't archive the old threads, but leave them for all to read.
It's baffling,to me atleast,how not many envy Feanor's "self-righteousness".Sure it was in excess but we could learn much from this character.From a moral stand,he should be condemned,without a doubt.
BUT his pride should be adored and at least respected.Sure,that was the prinipal cause of his downfall.But even in death,his head was held high and we should desire to die that way!

I think there's no point in creating anything if one is not willing to share it.

If Fëanor had shared his Silmarils and put them on display in the middle of Tirion, Melkor would never have been able to steal them (or at least, not get away with it like he did as written).

  << [1] [2] [3] >>