There's still one in my basement. I call him Dourif's Bane.

Silmarillion, The Return of the Noldor



Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad

When you come to think of it, it does make sense that Gothmog was high-captain of Morgoth, while Sauron was only his lieutenant! Slaying two High Kings of the Noldor and one mighty Noldo Prince (Echtelion of the Fountain)... That’s tough to surpass even by Gorthaur aka Sauron!

As the Silmarillion was finally written, I agree, there were lots of Balrogs ("Hosts" of them). The Silmarillion we read today, however, is not the final story JRR was in the process of writing. He had spent a great deal of his life writing and modifying his story, and was still doing so when he died. Were he still alive today, I sometimes wonder if the book would have been published yet, or if he would still be working on it.

When we read the Sil, we don't really see this, but it is a joining together of lots of these stories and notes that JRR wrote over the years. Many of his later writings, and thus those relating to the direction JRR was steering the book in his later years, are not included. In these later writings it would seem JRR was dramatically toning down the number of Balrogs, but it is not these later writings that Christopher used for the version we see today.

It leaves me with a dilemna. Do I go with the "hosts" that Christopher placed in print, or with the 3 to 7 that JRR was intending to have had he lived longer? I don't think either argument is really wrong, although more people will have the impression of "hosts" because that is what they see in print.

Balrogs were originally spirits of fire, Valaraukar, just like Arien, who sails the ship of the Sun. Only difference is that Balrogs allied themselves to Morgoth.

Gandalf is not a Valarauka, it seems that Olorín - which was Gandalf's name in Valinor - was a servant of Nienna or Manwë instead.

So i fail to see how Gandalf would be a brother of Durin's Bane.

Okay, all of my identification of Gandalf with fire is circumstantial, but it is consistent.

While Arien is a spirit of fire or spirit of flame, the term Valaraukar is, as far as I can find, used exclusively for the Balrogs. In any case, they all did exist before the earth together with each other and with Iluvatar. I identify them all as of a type for, I think, good reason. I say "brother" metaphorically. Melkor and Manwe are hardly such because they have a shared mother and father.

I don't know, Loni. I am not sure what shaya meant exactly. Yes, the father of all is Eru or whatever name you wish to call him by. Although dwarves are more distant in that Aule originally created them (sort of Eru's grandchildren) but I think Eru had to give them life. Gandalf is a Maia and the Balrogs were originally Maia who were corrupted ,so loosely speaking they are related (to use a general term). But the creation of the Valar and all other spirits was by Eru alone.

There are relations between Valar all right. Manwë and Melkor are indeed brothers, that relation between them was made by their father Eru, who is the father of all Ainur. It are two spirits who are brothers, so of course you can't compare with humans.

There is not only relation between Melkor and Manwë : Vana and Yavanna are sisters; Namo, Irmo are brothers and Nienna is their sister.

Anyway, it is mentioned nowhere in the Silmarillion or anywhere else that Olorín was a spirit of fire. It's just mentioned that he visited Nienna's halls a lot, that he liked being in Tirion a lot, and that he was sent to Middle-Earth by Manwë and Varda themselves...

He did wield Narya, the ring of fire, but the reason why Círdan gave it to him is not because Gandalf was a spirit of fire and because Círdan noticed that; Círdan gave it because he could see that Gandalf would need it in the future.

The only 'fiery' thing which can be appointed to Gandalf is that he mentions he is "a wielder of the secret flame of Anor" but i think that's just a warning given to the Balrog to show that he has the power to rebuke the "flame of Udûn".

The only thing Gandalf has in common with any Balrog is that they're both of the Ainur.

I think the comparison I would make to illustrate the Sauron/Gothmog relationship would be Prime Minister/Field Marshall. Sauron was the more wise and subtle, and, I think, more intimately involved with Morgoths counsels; Gothmog was shaped and formed for battle, of which Sauron was capable, but other things as well.

I was wondering, do the balrogs just serve Melkor, or do serve sauron to?

 

Also, what are some characteristics of balrogs?

I agree. I don't think the balrogs would've follow Sauron even if he went and tried to recruit them. Now if it was Gothmog, it would've been different.

Hi guys, nice to read you again!

Point on dragons: Gandalf's basic premise in The Hobbit was that it couldn't be good to have a dragon so handy, there on the Lonely Mountain, that Sauron could approach and eventually get to help him in his dour and terrible plan; specifically, against Wilderland and even Eriador; therefore, he would help the dwarves in their quest, because interests would coincide.  And I guess Gandalf would be in a position to make an educated guess, as he, too, was a Maia and thus of a condition equal to Sauron and the balrogs, though the dragons would be another case, I guess...

Good thread, this!

So I've always believed they did not work together and had no intention of doing so. Same with dragons. We know they existed during the Second and Third age, but at no point did they help Sauron or did he even attempt to ask for their help (as far as we know). Thus, it seems unlikely the two ever worked together post-Morgoth.

I was wondering about it a few days ago and had no idea the that the discussion is already open on PT.

Point on dragons: Gandalf's basic premise in The Hobbit was that it couldn't be good to have a dragon so handy, there on the Lonely Mountain, that Sauron could approach and eventually get to help him in his dour and terrible plan; specifically, against Wilderland and even Eriador; therefore, he would help the dwarves in their quest, because interests would coincide.

Exactly what my conclusions were. I wouldn't say for sure that Sauron would try to recruit Smaug. And guess he would fail* - but at the time no one knew when the Ring was and it would be a disaster if Sauron or Smaug would find it (I'm curious what would happen if Smaug would find it!). So Gandalf, knowing that the danger of Sauron's return is rising, wanted to get rid of the possibility that Middle-Earth will have to face them both - Smaug and Sauron. Cause the results of them being basically on the same side would be calamitous for Arda.

* I agree with Glorfindel, here - the only benefits of Smaug being alive for Sauron would be massive destruction of Arda and it's residents. I can't see Smaug becoming an ally for Sauron voluntarily unless he was offered something really prescious...