Thread: Wots up with Orcs
  >>
The Orcs were originally Elves mutelated by Morgoth in mockery of elves and therefor they are immortal (till they are killed atleast) In LotR there's a confersation which hints that they can live very long (the part when sam is following the orcs whom captured frodo)
So Orcs would now be a different breed because it will be generations past when the first orcs were spawned and there offspring keeps being orcs and aren't born as elves
But then logically they should be, since they were bred from Elves. I've always thought of that as rather tragic. And trolls were created in mockery of Ents I believe, so they were what - corrupted Huorns? What else...Balrogs were demons of fire, corrupted spirits all of them! I feel slightly miffed that Morgoth chose not to create anything in mockery of Men though. Nazghul don't count, since they were Sauron's creation.
and ummmm how do Orcs breed???
cause I aint heard of any female orcs yet!!!!
I dont think the bushmen were decendents of slaves. Maybe just one of the other races of Men that fell under the shadow of Morgoth.
I always believed Orcs came originally from Elves, but they were turned bad in some dark place long ago. And they are immortal untill they are killed, indeed, and they are afraid of the light, unless you're dealing with Uruk-hai which are breeded from Orcs and what again?
[Edited on 11/2/2002 by Grondmaster]
Bushmen? What bushmen?
Shoot grondie, and I thought you guys were talking about Texas Republicans...
Shoot grondie, and I thought you guys were talking about Texas Republicans...
I know, I know, the topic is susposed to be orcs. Well politics Texas style is a lot like orc in-fighting.
I don't recall any bushmen in the book... I must read on then. At the council of Elrond now. Can't wait to finish the fellowship. I want to meet Treebeard again!
how many times is that now, 30? 40?
...a huge orc-chieftan, almost man-high
so, if I'm interpreting this right, the hugest of the orcs was only almost as tall as a man...which means the average orc was probably pretty short...did anyone else originally picture the orcs as, well...somewhat more than 5ft tall?
and i think Grondy's from Washington...somebody around here's from Texas, though, I think, but I can't remember who it is...
There is an idea that maybe Sauron created the orcs which is quite interesting. Because Sauron originally was a servant to Aulė, thus having quite a lot of knowlege in how to create things, he might have created the orcs in the time when he was not completly evil but rather semi evil semi good. This also fits with the fact that Aulė created the Dwarves so it would seem natural that his servants would follow his master... However, the problem is that the Dwarves created by Aulė don't have a life of their own which the Orcs seem to have... (the Dwarves are only alive when Aulė thinks about them and it isn't until Ilśvatar gives them life that they accually live...)[Edited on 12/3/2002 by iago]
So Morgoth may have created orcs with his hammer and anvil? Although true, it does not explain how they have self-awareness and do not all drop dead when Sauron falls. Melkor / Morgoth was a very powerful Vala, maybe he was able to steal some of the flame imperishable or whatever, and give his orcs life?
How he could have bread them from elves seems increadible, except that he apparently had many thousands of years to do so. He could have used selective in-breeding and exposure to certain elements (he awas a vala, he would know how to do that) to breed them slowly, until he had what he wanted.
A lot of people have difficulty with the idea that orcs came from elves. Even PJ seems to shy away from the idea. I think that it makes the idea that the elves and orcs are mirror images (or antithesis...I hope I spelled that correctly) of each other, all the more plausible.
It also had the effect of showing that not even the elves are perfect. And it freaked them out more than a little.
Well you're quite right that it seems a bit strange... if orcs were created by Sauron/Morgoth they shouldn't be able to have self-awareness, however another idea could be that Morgoth/Sauron used some of the beasts already in Middle-Earth (those hunted down by Ormė) and somehow gave them a certain intelligence thus breading orcs... (yes, "orcs" and "intelligence" in the same sentence is rather repulsive )
"It is said that the Black Speech was devised by Sauron in the Dark Years"
this is taken from Appendix E
gee, i really should read the silmarillion..
And yeah, you really should read the Silmarillion...[Edited on 15/3/2002 by iago]
I still stick to the fact that Orcs are Elves guided on the wrong path by Sauron...
[Edited on 22/4/2002 by iago]
i kinda wondered if they were immortal too. i don't think they are... or might be but the life expectancy shortened due to orcs butchering themselves to death.
And eating eachother...you forgot to eating eachother. Well, they usualy try to eat everyone else... *shudders* can you imagine it? One minute your talking a nice, peacefull stroll through the mines of moria, the next minute theres and orc tryin' to chew your leg off. Oh the horror
[Edited on 24/4/2002 by Halo_Black]
I don't believe orcs were cannibalistic in nature, except during times when they were snowed into high mountain passes for the winter. Even they thought orc-flesh was stringy and tasted terrible; they would much rather have a nice hunk of chicken tasting man-flesh or elf, or even better yet, hobbit.
Then... are they immortal like the elves? Do they go to the Halls of Mandos? and, why aren't the offspring of two orcs an elf?
I had some idea that orcs did not suffer natural deaths, but I am not sure where I read that.
I think Morgoth must have had the technology to alter DNA in order to produce the orcs, or yes, they would have reverted back to some kind of primitive elvish race. Would make an interesting scientific experiement (if such things were possible). Tolkien always hated anyone applying science to his world, but what if the process were reversable? Did orcs occasionally revert ie; did an orc woman occasionally give birth to something vaguely elf-like? Only for the poor babe to be immediately murdered or eaten? Frightening thoughts - or a good idea for some fan fiction!
And God knows what other little experiments Saruman had toyed with, without any thought to the "rightness" or "fairness" of what he was doing.
When Morgoth did his genetic engineering on his original elvin breeding stock, the results were mortal orcs, which could no longer be considered, in any way, elves.
And the angels find out that there's man and woman, so this means that mankind can procreate. Since angels can't, man is bound to rule the angels one day.
Lucifer and his angels come up against this, and the whole thing ends up in a fight between Lucifer and his angels, and Michael (the leader of God's army) and his angels. Heaven is actually split in two by this. Lucifer is of course defeated, and then he is turned into a monster and banned from Heaven. Assuming that he went to live elsewhere with his followers, this is where Hell comes from. Angels founded it, lead by Lucifer the monstrous devil. I think this is probably what happened with the Elves (Orcs)too.
I agree with your reasoning. To both of the S-men, Orcs were just tools, fodder to be expended in the cause.
Cross breeding orcs and humans. ... And God knows what other little experiments Saruman had toyed with, without any thought to the "rightness" or "fairness" of what he was doing.
[Edited on 7/6/2002 by iago]
As for the Elves to Orcs situation I think its wholy likely that over millenia Morgoth could have created the new out of the old. If you look at the rings power to change and corrupt (As in Smeagol to Gollum over a relatively short space of time) which is only a part power or Sauron. If it were possible for Gollum to breed (heaven forbid) would he have nice little Hobbitlike children or something twisted?
The Orc/Elces were exposed to the horrors of Thangorodrim for far longer and so is it not possible that they could become something entirely new?
Also think how often Elves actually breed. not a lot, so is there creation and genetic make up even remotely similar to ours?
Saruman cross bred orcs with evil men (in the book not the movie), and I dont think that Tolkien ever specifically described how this was done. I suppose he wanted the reader to imagine that part for themeselves, if they felt so inclined My belief? Artificial insemination does not actually require vast amounts of modern technology if done in a timely manner. (I hope that does not offend anyones' sensibilities)
Genetic mutation is something that can happen due to enviromental changes as well as social change. Look at frogs who change sex when theres a lack of the opposite gender about to procreate or basic evolutionary theory. I dont think Morgoth would have used anything like artificial insemination (it just feels a little too seedy.....hmmmm poor use of expression ) to create Orcs. As Elves are immortal I believe he just corrupted them and then left them to breed as the damage was already being done.
I definately agree however that its best left to the imagination as to how it happened, I have images of vast subteranean caverns filled with tormented creatures slowly century by century being altered physically and mentally by their environment! Gaaaaa wish I could put whats in my mind into words better!