My favorite Faramir bit is from 'The Two Towers', Book IV, Chapter 5 entitled 'Window on the West'

My favorite part is where Faramir tells his father he let the ring go and his father acts so disapointed. But Faramir didn't try to explain his way out of it, just accepted his father's ire like a real man! I can't wait for him on screen. He is my favorite human in the series.

It's great that so many of you like Faramir so much!
Yes - the description of his awakening to life is very moving. I also think that that scene has a very profound symbolic meaning. Faramir and Aragorn are still rivals - they both have lawful claims to rule Minas Tirith, Faramir as the Heir of Denethor, Aragorn as the Heir of Elendil himself. And Aragorn does not win by defeating Faramir (= demonstrating that Faramir is weaker, less worthy...) - but by healing him, by giving him new life. The righteous King is the Healer, the Giver of Life - and not of Death.
However, I felt a little bit disappointed by a brief account of the meeting between Aragorn and Faramir after Aragorn became the King; it was too much cold and formal for me. I expected that they will become personal friends... like Aragorn and Eomer. ..

As for the attitude of Denethor - I can understand it very well. Finally the choice of Faramir proved to be juistified - but it could very easily prove to be totally disastrous. Denethor was convinced that the quest of Frodo cannot succeed and that it will only hasten the moment, when the Ring will fall into the hands of the Enemy. And it's true alas what he said to Faramir, that he made his choice not only for himself, but also for his whole people, whom he should protect... without even asking them their opinion. Finally some of them could prefer thraldom (with the hope that it won't continue infinitely!...) to the ultimate destruction of Gondor.
In a way, both Denethor and Faramir were right. And it's this that makes their relationship tragic. Denethor was not simply a nasty dad unjust to his son! Ttheir confilnct reminds me of the confilct between Antigona and Creon in the classical Greek play of Sofocles...

Denethor didn't just compare the two, he openly favoured Boromir. He even said to Faramir that he wished he had died instead. Don't you just hate Denethor?

All of this just made me love Faramir all the more, as no doubt Tolkien intended. Good parents love all their children equally.

Yes I agree that Denethor was not really an exemplary father. It was really cruel to tell Faramir that he preferred him to die instead of Boromir - nad all this when Faramir was nearly spent after hard fighting and not sleeping on several nights! But I think that he told him so mainly because he was frankly convinced that Faramir did an extremely stupid and disastrous thing by letting the Ring go to Mordor. He did not believe that Frodo had any chance of destroying the Ring. And we must admit that it WAS highly improbable! I think that this was just an expression of his anger.
For wishing to burn him alive... well he himself also choose to be burned alive. He just wanted to die (together with his son whom he loved after all and to whom he had guilty feelings) with some dignity... and not to be hewed into pieces or tormeted by victorious soldiers of Sauron. He saw himself in the Palantir black sails of corsairs of Umbar coming to join the hosts of Mordor, he had no idea that it's Aragorn coming to his aid.
Of course we are all on the side of Faramir, also because he behaves with so much class - is not aggressive himself but "takes it" as a man. Yet Denethor is a cmplex personality and not just a stupid old man, unjust and full of spite.
It is of course a very bad thing, to favorize one of the children. I personally had very wise parents; sometimes either I or my brother asked them "Whom do you love more?" they always answered " We love you both in the same way". We never ever got a different answer and we appreciate it!
However, look how that injust treatment worked in the case of Denethor's children. It's Boromir (the favorised one) who has apparently some problems with his personality. Boromir is anxious to be assured that everybody is "grateful" to him which means that he feels that he is not loved (or even not liked) enough. And no wonder, Faramir is generally liked because he is sensitive and understands others and respects their dignity - whereas Boromir is accustomed to "have his will" with everybody and do not bothers overmuch about their feelings. Remember his behaviour during the Council of Elrond - when old Bilbo made his valiant offer to become the Ring Bearer, Boromir started to laugh and "laughter died on his lips" only when he remarked that all others do not have any idea to laugh!
My point is that if you favorize one of your children you do harm to both of them, and not only to the child which is less praised. Spoiled children tend to be bullies and therefore they become unpopular and finally unhappy...

Hi Swamphaye it worked after all!!

I don't think that favouritism affected Faramir's personality (or Boromir, for that matter). Faramir turned out sensitive & well adjusted - which he wouldn't have if he felt slighted as a child. In LotR, Faramir was wise & far seeing (like his father) because his Numenorian genes came out stronger, that's all - and it just skipped a sibling in the case of Boromir. Which was why Boromir was more aggresive, selfish etc - more like a Captain of Rohan than a Lord of Gondor.

I doubt whether Tolkien intended to highlight the consequences of unfair child rearing practises when he wrote about Faramir & Boromir.

[Edited on 8/2/2002 by Ungoliant]

Actually, you can liken it to "Sword in the Stone" and the relationship of Sir Hugo and all the staff to Wart and Kaye. Kaye was always treated well and with defference, because as far as they knew, he was the heir. (I remember in the book how shocked Kaye was when Merlin chastised him) Wart was always the brunt of everyone's punishment and even had to bear the ire the staff felt of Kaye - because he was nothing but an adopted son... no heir at all.

Boromir was the heir apparant in the city of Gondor. If anyone paid any mind to Faramir, it was only as "Boromir's brother" and he bore that well. Some younger siblings find that hard to bear and even become biter about it (no matter how good the eldest sibling is to them). There were those who treated Faramir as Faramir and not as brother or son of anyone (like Gandalf). But Denethor was probably treating Boromir as the future king (steward) and if he had time for Faramir, he should have been greatful for it... (which, despite being king/steward is really poor parenting)[Edited on 9/2/2002 by swampfaye]

Allyssa,
I'm really happy that you are of similar mind in respect to some problems of parenting!
I am still shocked that Denethor might have been so much displeased with faramir for
his contacts with Gandalf that he could have him flogged... But, evidently, already at
that time Faramir was not a very obedient son. I suppose that he was always very polite
and never overtly aggressive - but did not let himself to be ordered in important matters!
It must have annoyed poor Denethor a lot!
I would be very grateful for any further information on Faramir coming from less known
works of Tolkien!...

Ungoliant,
I do not think that we can explain all differences between Faramir and Boromir solely in
terms of genes. It is difficult to tell to what degree the personality of Faramir was
shaped by his Numenorean genes ("blood") - and to what degree it was shaped by his
experience. This is the classical "nature and nurture" controversy well known in behavioural
sciences; it is usually assumed that both these factors are important.
I agree that Tolkien put an emphasis on the importance of hereditary
factors. However, he also stressed the role of "nurture". For instance,
In his essay "on fairy tales" he wrote



Faramir is certainly marked with sorrow - this is clearly told in the scene on the walls
of Minas Tirith when Eowyn makes him think about his mother who died young...
I have a feeling that he is so full of compassion for the sorrows of others because he
knows sorrow so well from his own experience.

I agree that both Denethor and Faramirare more intelligent and have more class
than poor Boromir. However, Faramir differs from Denethor (and Boromir) above
all by his extraordinary ability for empathy and compassion.

"Numenorean blood" ("genes") does not automatically make people so amiable as Faramir.
Many Numenoreans were not nice at all, at all!... In one of the Unfinished Tales we have a story
of a couple of Numenoreans, Aldarion and Erendis; both are eztremely selfish and their marriage
is a disaster. In that story Erendis describes Men of Numenor in the following way:



This is not very Faramir-like, is it?

And then Numenoreans were even worse! During the reign of their last king they



It is also said that when the fleet of Numenoreans moved west towards the land of Aman,
they did not care for the wind, because they had "many strong slaves to row beneath
the lash". Perhaps some ancestors of Rohirrim were among these slaves? some nice young
men like Eomer and Eorl?...

So... I really do not think that "Numenorean genes" alone could explain all excellent
human qualities of Faramir!

Your arguments are so convincing Ungoliant that I simply must think it all over!
Anyway, just two short comments (let's see if I am able at all to make any really
short comment!)
(1) The fact that Demethor favorised Boromir was very painful for Faramir even
when he was a fully adult man (he was 36 at that time if I am not mistaken!).
This is stated directly by Aragorn in the Houses of Healing. He bore it as a man, but
finally that mental suffering induced a depression and almost killed him. When he was
a boy he must have felt in a similar way each time when he found out that he is
treated injustly. I think that such injustice may "sensitize" its victim to the problem of
injustice and may lead to a solemn desire never to be unjust himself.
(2) However, when I thought now once more about how Denethor treated his sons
I realised that although he favorised Boromir, he was very demanding to him, too.
Boromir was not an entirely spoilt child. He is told by Tolkien (in the Appendices
to the ROTK) to be a helper and protector of Faramir, and he always tended to act
as a protector of anybody who was weaker.

Good evening Ungoliant!
Do not be sorry that you disagree with me, I ADORE that! - and I also adore disagreeing
with others !
Why should one agree with any view if he/she is not convinced?!!!
However I am not someone who always sticks blindly to his views and your arguments
are so serious convincing that I still feel I must think more about it.
Well just now it seems to me that
(1) I still insist that " Numenorean genes" alone (as the sole factor) cannot explain Faramir's kindness (although perhaps
they contributed in an important way to his intellectual powers);
(2) I agree that the tension related to his relationship with his father was only partly
responsable for his depression during the Siege of Gondor; there wre many other
factors that contributed to it as well, as you very rightly remarked in your last post;
(3) I also agree that his depression mighthave been related more to his present quarrel with
his father than to his bad experiences from childhood;
(4) However, I still think that if it that quarrel affected him so much at the age of 36,
similar tensions and injustice suffered during his childhood might have influenced
his personality in a very important way.
Allyssa wrote that Denethor had him flogged for conversations with Gandalf!
Just imagine his feelings - he certainly wanted to be an obedient son... and yet, how could
he be obedient to his father in that matter? He knew very well that he was not doing
any evil! and yet get punished for it.

I hope YOU do not mind that I often disagree with you?

Faramir fans:

You might be interested in Tolkien's letter number 244. It tells us a lot about Faramir's character.

I am still looking for the other reference you asked for Eryan. will post as soon as i find it.

Hey! He's cool, but not /that/ cool!

Hello Jehanne,
I do not tell the Eowyn WAS "not good enough for Faramir - I immedately
contradicted the statement quoted by you!...
They are both cool - Faramir and Eowyn - each in his/her own way!
Hello Ungoliant,
thanks a lot for these nice warm words - they induced nice warm feelings!
So we can now "disagree happily ever after"
However, I think you must have remarked that I VERY often agree with you... and Ialso
enjoy reading your posts, they are so stimulating and full of reall passion!!!
Being married to a Faramir!... O happy woman!!! Sounds absolutely great!!!
As for the role of various internal & external factors in shaping Faramir's personality (or any
other personality...) I also do not like silly shallow explanations taking into account
SOLELY childhood sufferings. However, I never insisted that childohood experiences
explained ALL in Faramir's personality - I only think that they might have had an
important impact.
About what Tolkien intended... I think that great works of art may induce in us
thoughts and feelings not intended by the postAuthorID. And I feel that Tokien's works are not
a product of cool controlled "construction", but above all of unconscious or half-conscious
mental processes. His characters are "alive" and Tolkien often writes about
them in terms of "discovering what happended to them". And he once stated that he wrote
the LOTR "in his life blood, thick or thin"...
I wanted to quote here something that he wrote on that topic in his essay "ON fairy stories",
but I cannot find that fragment - it will be for some other time...

Thanks for calling off hounds, I feel so very much safer now!
The argument about her being a Rohirrim was meant to indicate why she was
attractive for him in the first place... Sadly, great personal qualities do not
automatically include love. Friendship, admiration, all that... but they are not enough
to induce love.

Yeah, "just an afterthought" is a perfectly fine English phrase.

Okay- Eowyn as a dwarf is one funny image, I must say. I read that and immediately IM'd a friend to share, and we both had giggle fits over it. So, thanks for brightening my day, Eryan!

Anyway, no, I doubt Faramir would have married dwarf-Eowyn. Maybe elf-Eowyn, maybe not. But what if she were a (human) woman of Gondor instead of Rohan? I certainly hope that Faramir's fondness for the Rohirrim wouldn't have counted against her then. That makes him sound a bit shallow. And I like Faramir too much to want that to happen.

So, I see what you mean about his bias, and I even kind of agree. But I don't /want/ to agree!