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Thread: Elladan and Elrohir

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I put this thread in since there was so much discussion on the obscure character of Fatty Bolger that I thought we could do with some more obscure characters. We are rapidly running out of major ones anyhow. Big Smile Smilie
There are so many major characters yet which are not discussed at all!
(1) Turin Turambar - when we see how many versions of his story have been written
by Tolkien, we must realise how important he was for him... Why?
(2) Beren - a person with which Tolkien identified himself
(3) Luthien - both beautiful and strong & brave, the portrait of his wife

As for Elladan & Elrohir, it's true that they ARE fascinating - one know to learn more
about them. What I like about them is that they do not try to win personal renown
& power by becoming mighty chieftains, but simply "do their duty" in the Company
of Rangers of the Nord. They are ready to give all (their life included) in a fight for
a good cause - and to take nothing in return.
Quite true Eryan. I am glad to have found at least one like minded person.

Do you think their reticence could be to do with the mysterious choice or "acceptance of death"? Or do you think the are just shy? Self-consious maybe? they must get a lot of stares and odd looks...
Allyssa,
I always admired your posts. I kept visiting this forum as a guest during quite
a long time before deciding to participate in it... and I was often very deeply moved by
your posts.
Perhaps we are both like minded because we are both elf-friends? I have read in another
thread that you would like to be an elf... and I am of the same mind. And you can imagine
how I was glad when I made my "personality test" and... I was Legolas! What a surprise
I was convinced that I will turn out to be Boromir!
But that's off topic. Returning to Elladan and Elrohir, they seem to be shy... and marked
by sorrow (their mother suffered so much from Orcs that she left them and is gone West).
But I do not remember what happens to them finally? Do they remain in ME or depart with
their father, or perhaps later?
Thank you Eryan. I am sincerely flattered.

As for the end of Elladan and Elrohir, according to letter 153:

"...they delay their choice, and remain for a while."

I take that to mean that they stayed in Rivendel for a while, but eventually decided to follow their father and mother. Presumably they went with Celeborn. Perhaps he even swayed their decision?

I read somewhere that someone had read a reference otherwise, but they didn't have anything to back that up, so I wouldn't take it as canon. Tolkien's letter is the only source I've ever been able to find on the matter. If anyone can find anything else, I would be most interested. Smile Smilie
If they are gone with Celeborn, this implies that they did not wait for Arwen to die...
But I hope that they spent still some time with Aragorn and Arwen before their final
depart. They seemed to be really attached to Aragorn. And it's nice to imagine them
as kind uncles of small Eldarion!... they could teach him so much!... Smile Smilie
I don't know how often they travelled to Minas Tirith. There is nothing to suggest that they even left Rivendel. Maybe part of the "rules" for delaying one's choice is that one is not allowed to associate with people who have made their choice? I don't know.

Still it is a very nice thought. Arwen would be missing her family dreadfully.
I also figure when King Elessar came north on his rounds to visit his northern subjects, Queen Arwen came with him. Her brothers joined the King on those rounds and part of that time was also spent in Rivendale.
Another remark about Elladan and Elrohir: they always seemed to me delicate and shy and rather introvertic; and yet they were ruthless Orc-killers. This makes them a bit "warrior bards", a bit like the Minstrel Boy...
Eryan, who is Minstrel Boy? Is he a character from a novel? I don't know that one.

Elladan and Elrohir were ruthless orc-killers because of their mother. Cant say I blame them.

I think they were rather like Beren, who loved all the animals and was vegetarian, but who hated orcs with a passion. It seems to be a common condition in ME. Big Smile Smilie I think this strange polarity in their character makes them all the more fascinating.

Tolkien used similar ideas in many of his characters. Look also at Eowyn the girl-woman warrior, Aragorn the vagrant yet kingly ranger, Gandalf the kindly grandfatherly Maia Spirit and especially Frodo, the meek, bookish hero!

Does anyone else make this observation? or disagree? It is an idea that I will deginately file away for future reference. Smile Smilie
Oh and I agree with Grondmaster's observations also. It would seem likely that Aragorn would go via Rivendel on his regular progress around his realm. I guess that is how the Red Book contains the information about Rivendel and Celeborn etc.

I wonder did Arwen feel any pangs of regret or loss during these visits? Still, I am sure she enjoyed seeing her brothers again. And they her. I wonder did she bring Eldarion with her after he was born? Would have been excelent education. But I am begining to follow the path of speculation again...darn Tolkien and his lack of detail! Wink Smilie
I thought that everybody knows the Minstrel Boy...
There is a song with the words of Thomas Moore
Quote:
The Minstrel-Boy to the war is gone,
In the ranks of death you'll find him;
His father's sword he has girded on,
And his wild harp slung behind him.
"Land of song!" said the warrior bard.
"Though all the world betrays thee,
One sword at least thy rights shall guard,
One faithful harp shall praise thee!"

The Minstrel fell! - but the foeman's chain
Could not bring his proud soul under;
The harp he lov'd ne'er spoke again,
For he tore its chords asunder;
And said: "No chains shall sully thee,
Thou soul of love and bravery!
Thy songs were made for the brave and free,
They shall never sound in slavery!"

As for the polarity in characters... yes, an excellent point. I'd add Tom Bombadil - funny and yet a perilous Master of Old Forest.
See also our discussion at the end of the thread on Lorien in "Places" when we argue that the magical aura of that place is a blend of joy and bereavement...
And when talking about polarity in characters... why of course Turin son of Hurin, sometimes so gentle and full of compassion (for his lame friend Sador Labadal, or for the ild Dwarf Mim...) and sometimes rash and unheeding (as when he came to Hithlum and slew Brodda).
By the way, I feel really sorry for him, nobody wants to make any comments on him in his thread... And I like him so much. It seems that his dark doom continues even on this Forum...
I encountered someone recently (while exiled from PT) who insisted that they prefered Elrohir to Elladan as a character. They were unable to give a reason why. I was flabbergasted. I mean, the two are virtually interchangeable. I half expect that they get confused themselves sometimes (but I bet they played some wicked pranks on their tutors when young) Can anyone else think of any possible reason for prefering one over the other?:oBig Smile Smilie
Were you to ask either of them, they would say, "Mom always loved him more than me." We can't ask Celebrian about this, because she is long gone; and Elrond is wise enough to keep his mouth shut whenever the topic comes up. Wink Smilie

Needless to say the forgoing has no textual basis, I was just reminded of the Smothers Brothers and their sibling rivalry. To me Elrond's boys were two peas in the pod; I never could tell whom was who;and thus, developed no strong (or weak) preference for one or the other. Big Smile Smilie
Exactly Grondy. People have the wierdest reasons for liking or not liking someone.

Maybe it was because he brought up the rear when they took the paths of the dead, and didn't stop to carry Gimli. I am sure the dwarf would have appreciated that (sarcasm), or the fact that he would speak to Gimli to answer his questions. Or maybe, Elladan had a personal quirk the rest of us weren't privy to. Did he have B.O.? Or did he secretely swear a lot? (Maybe in elvish?) Or maybe it was when he clipped Legolas over the ear for not polishing his boots well enough....

I have scanned the pages, and can find no reason to dislike Elladan any more than his brother. They may well have both been stuck up and snobby or shy. Impossible to tell. *sigh* If only we could visit ME...
I've just popped in to a very interesting discussion, so I see... Smile Smilie

I don't see no reason whatsoever to like Elladan over Elrohir or the other way around. They're twin brothers, always together, doing the same things, following the same leaders, battling together, etc. I don't see the point in liking one better than the other...

Now what were you talking about again? Big Smile Smilie
We were supposed to be discussing Elladan and Elrohir, sons of Elrond. I recently encountered someone who prefered Elrohir over Elladan for no apparent reason. Given his name, maybe Elrohir was more "horsey" and horsey people like to stick together, so maybe that is it.

Could it be a twin thing? Good twin vs Evil Twin?

Maybe poor Elladan had a complex, since his name literally means "Elf-Man." Maybe all the other elves at school teased him. I mean imagine, introducing yourself as "Elf-Man"? I cant believe Elrond would be so heartless! It is just so literal!Big Smile Smilie

Since the two of them were always together, it hardly seems to be a sibling rivalry thing. I think it is more likely they suffer from the twin identity syndrome - they are so much alike that they have difficulty forging individual identities. Poor things! such emotional suffering Wink Smilie- and to top it all off, they only get minor roles in the book of the century!Wink SmilieBig Smile Smilie
If anyone is interested, I have found the only artistic renderings of Elladan and Elrohir that exist as far as I know. They are under the wed site for the artist April Lee. (I couldn't get the link to work).

Quite good I think, but the costumes are a little over-done.

[Edited on 8/4/2002 by Allyssa]
Just popped in here to try out these new smilies::

Kiss Smilie In Love Smilie

Ha Ha Ha Smilie


Oh yeah, I was going to ask if anyone can suggest a reason why they might have stayed in ME? Arwen's sake or to finish off the remaining orcs or something else? (a break from dad maybe? Ha Ha Ha Smilie


[Edited on 18/4/2002 by Allyssa]
They seemed to be really attached to Aragorn and to other Rangers, perhaps that was it?
And since Elrond went off, someone had to take over Rivendell. Which of the two would be doing that, you think? Together? Or one of them? :grin
I think they probably ruled together, since they did everything else together.

Elladan would be the Heir, beig the oldest, but if anything Elrohir appears to be the dominant twin. When they meet Aragorn in Rohan, it is Elroir who delivers the postBodys, while Elladan is relegated to the rear guard through The Paths of the Dead.

I always wondered if they stayed behind in ME to get a taste of rulership. They would not be of sufficient station in Aman to rule, which may have been part of the attraction to remaining in ME.

I wonder how things went when Celeborn joined them? I think they would have retained their rulership, but I think it may have been Celeborn's counsel that convinced them to go to Aman. In the LOTRs he does not seem especially bright, but maybe his wisdom lies with assessing individual needs (see Martinez essays for arguments). He may have been able to help his troubled grandsons find thier true home.
Interesting... You say, Alyssa, that since they did everything else together, they must have ruled together. But there appears to be a difference in rank, according to you? Elrohir is kinda dominant over Elladan? I never felt it that way. I think that since they are twins and both sons of Elrond, they must be treated equally. Duck Smilie
Just to clarify what I meant, we know from the family trees that Elladan is the elder, yet I noticed that Elrohir seems to do most of the important talking. This could suggest some kind of dominance. It is common with twins that one sibling is usually the "boss" or the "leader" of the two.

I am sure they were both accorded equal respect from others and were loved equally by their father. Not really a difference of rank, just a slight difference of personal nature.
Ooh. That would explain things... Big Smile Smilie
I just wonder why Elladan and Elrohir (the ever-young Half-elven) liked so much the company of Rangers, which were told by Tolkien to be really grim, silent, and (seemingly) far older than them. Could this be possible that these eternal , androgyne youths were fascinated by full. mature manhood which was beyond their reach forever... and yet the human parts of their hearts yearned for it?...
Hmmm.. could be. Yet we see that a fascination with the edain is not unheard of among the elves. Consider Finrod.

Although it is true, that elves never seem to really grow up. Legolas gives us a few anoying examples of this, like when he smiles at the rest of the company as they struggle through the snow over the Caradhras pass and then makes a joke. Not funny Legolas! I bet the others felt like pelting him with snowballs, if they hadn't been so exhausted. And that crack about the hobbits (Merry and Pippin who were in grave danger) growing wings or something. Aragorn and Gimli should be commended for tolerating this with so much grace.

Back to Elladan and Elrohir. They dont seem overly grim either, but given the circumstances, we would expect a bit of sobriety. Even Legolas fails to crack any remarks on the Paths of the Dead.

I feel that their partenership is partly a business-like arrangement. The rangers and the twins are both out to slaughter orcs, so it is reasonable that they should work together. They still seem to be fairly shy with anyone except Aragorn, and hardly leave their adopted brother's side. I wonder how well the other rangers knew them? Hard to say. Even Gandalf treats them as aquaintances.

It must be strange indeed to be half-elven, to have one part of your heart pulled one way, another part the other. And to have personal traits that everyone finds unusual or exotic.

I seem to recall reading somewhere about whether the elves would find them attractive, but I cant find it now. Can anyone else? It is probably in one of the more obscure texts.
I think Elladan and Elrohir came with the rangers to help Aragorn, their adopted brother whom they loved and respected, being the heir of Isildur. They came to aid Aragorn, and so did the rangers. They just happened to be on the same road, with the same purpose and destination. Why travel alone if you can travel in group as well? Big Smile Smilie
Luckily it is not irreversible Gnampie!!!
If anyone is interested in some eye-candy:

http://communities.msn.com/MrMysteriousElf/thesonsofelrond.msnw

Angel Smilie )



[Edited on 8/6/2002 by Allyssa]
Aw, c'mon someone must have something to say about these pictures? The Elrohir picture makes my heart go "flippity".

In Love Smilie

OK, take Elrohir then, I prefer Elladan!
Phwoar! Long-haired blokes! Yum! Tongue Smilie

I'll have 'em both once you're done! Will it take long?
I think what we have going on here is a hint about where half-elves come from. Ha Ha Ha Smilie
Very Big Grin Smilie
Ha Ha Ha Smilie Told you it was worth a look! In Love Smilie
*is not going to look as he has a feeling he will not like what he sees*
Let me assure all members and guests - and especially administrators - that the pictures are very tasteful. Have you ever known me to post anything that wasn't? Wink Smilie

They are just pictures of Elladan and Elrohir by artist April Lee (I think). Both fully clothed and not provocatively posed. It is only a view of head and shoulders.

All the ohhh-ing and Arhhh-ing is simply out of aesthetic admiration. I promise Wink Smilie We ladies find a well shaped pout and touseled long hair appealing. Angel Smilie
I think the artist must have used one of the Italian footballers as a model. Elladan/Elrohir look an awful lot like Allesandro Nesta. With the pout, long hair & gorgeous tan. Yum... Tongue Smilie
Quote:

All the ohhh-ing and Arhhh-ing is simply out of aesthetic admiration. I promise Wink Smilie We ladies find a well shaped pout and touseled long hair appealing. Angel Smilie

WOOHOO!
Yes I absolutely agree about long hair!
Quote:
Ha Ha Ha Smilie Told you it was worth a look! In Love Smilie


Yes, it was !!!!
Oh, why on earth did my husband decide to cut his hair some years ago?! Shaking Head Smilie
Quote:
Luckily it is not irreversible Gnampie!!!

Unfortunately, Eryan, sometimes it is. Mine used to be half way down my back, but then it fell out. I wish I'd shaved it off years ago now.
Mine still is, and looks like it's gonna stay now as well! Hooray!!!!
But for how long, Plastic? Mine was okay until I got into my thirties. At 36 I decided it was getting too thin on top to keep long without looking an idiot. Now it's short, I don't really care what happens to it.
Genetics. Usually you take after your maternal grandfather hairwise, mine had a full head of dark brown hair until he died at 84, with a bit of grey at the temples. My other grandfather was bald as a coot by the age of 24, this would have happened by now anyway. And other than that hair loss never happens in my family, so I'm quietly confident.
Hooray! Plastic's gonna keep his hair long! Big Smile Smilie:

Don't change your mind mate - there are too few long-haired men about these days. Shaking Head Smilie
I cut it all off 5 years ago on my 20th Birthday, lived to regret it too much. There's nothing worse than a guy sitting in a pub who keeps saying, "I used to have long hair you know..." so I grew it all back. Don't worry, it's staying this time.
That is good news. I kinda miss the late '80s when I couldn't walk down the street without bumping into a gorgeous ponytailed hunk (lucky me! Big Smile Smilie ). Of course I was in university at that time so that might explain it. But men nowadays look like fluff. Boy group hairdos (like the Backside boys etc) are really sick. Tongue Smilie Bleagh.
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