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Thread: Isildur


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Vee
has made 2834 posts and is an Elf from Lothlorien and is not online.
Posted Thursday 1st July 2004 (10:55am)
Isildur deserves a thread of his own and as I can't find one anywhere I shall start it right here, right now.

Never mind the Last Alliance and the ring and stuff....... there is more interesting stuff to deal with first. For instance, Isildur lived in Numenor, he was one of The Faithful and what a terrible time they must have had. Sauron, once he had taken control, demanded human sacrifices to Melkor and who did they sacrifice - members of The Faithful!

Quote:
There after the fire and smoke went up with out ceasing; for the power of Sauron daily increased, and in that temple, with spilling of blood and torment and great wickedness, men made sacrifice to Melkor that he should release them from Death. And most often from among the Faithful they chose their victims; yet never openly on the charge that they would not worship Melkor...


Quote:
And they sailed now with power and armoury to Middle-earth, and they came no longer as bringers of gifts, nor even as rulers, but as fierce men of war. And they hunted the men of Middle-earth nd took their goods and enslaved them, and many they slew cruelly upon their altars.


From The Silmarillion : Akallabeth

Isildur saved fruit from Nimloth so that the White Tree could be preserved and he sailed with The Faithful away from Numenor before the terrible wrath of the Valar destroyed it.

What a life this guy had and all this before the Last Alliance and the Ring.

The flight from Numenor and its destruction reminds me of Sodom and Gomorrah (sp?).
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Virumor
has made 3563 posts and is a Rohirrim from Edoras and is not online.
Posted Thursday 1st July 2004 (04:09pm)
Reminds me more of Atlantis. It weren't just two cities who were destroyed, but an entire continent.

Quote:
Isildur saved fruit from Nimloth so that the White Tree could be preserved and he sailed with The Faithful away from Numenor before the terrible wrath of the Valar destroyed it.

Sure he didn't just take a branch of it?

I recently wrote an essay on Isildur during a rainy Sunday, four pages long, perhaps elements of it would fit into this thread, although it is very long. But... that essay is solely about Isildur and the Ring.

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Vee
has made 2834 posts and is an Elf from Lothlorien and is not online.
Posted Thursday 1st July 2004 (04:09pm)
The reason for me thinking more S&G than Atlantis is the very biblical nature of Tolkien's writing and the fact that people did escape from S&G AND they were destroyed because of their evilness and sinfulness just like Numenoreans.

Your essay - great but please don't quote it in its entirety in one go because that could inhibit discussion...... use it wisely. Looking forward to it. Bit by bit....
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Vee
has made 2834 posts and is an Elf from Lothlorien and is not online.
Posted Thursday 1st July 2004 (04:27pm)
Quote:
Sure he didn't just take a branch of it?


Quote:
...Isildur passed through the guards and took from the Tree a fruit that hung upon it, and turned to go........ isildur came at last hardly back to Romenna and delivered the fruit to the hands of Amandil, ere his strength failed him. Then the fruit was planted in secret..... and s hoot arose from it and sprouted in the spring.


He stole a fruit.

Quote:
....but in the ship of Isildur was guarded the young tree, the scion of Nimloth the Fair.


And sailed away with a tree.


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Valedhelgwath
has made 4239 posts and is an Elf from Rivendell and is not online.
Posted Thursday 1st July 2004 (09:37pm)
I do not want to turn this discussion into one about the films etc, because we have been there, but I find it rather ironic how PJ on several occasions has Aragorn comparing himself with Isildur, and fearing that he shares the same weaknesses. Although Aragorn was a direct descendant of Isildur, I actually see more of a similarity between Isildur and Boromir. The reason for this similarity is of course obviously the Ring.

Both Isildur and Boromir were heroic figures. Both achieved much against overwhelming odds. Isildur saved a fruit of the White Tree; Boromir recaptured Osgilliath after it had been sacked. As "Princes/Stewards" of Gondor, both were loved and respected by their people and their troops. Both, however, have the unfortunate distinction of being men who will be remembered best for succumbing to the power of the Ring. Neither turned evil, but it did cause both to make decisions they should not have made. Isildur refused to destroy it, a decision which later resulted in his death. Boromir attempted to take it from Frodo and a few minutes later died defending Merry and Pippin.

The real tragedy of both of these characters is how their encounter with the Ring clouds how they should have been remembered.
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Virumor
has made 3563 posts and is a Rohirrim from Edoras and is not online.
Posted Thursday 1st July 2004 (11:56pm)
Vee posted :

"Quote:
...Isildur passed through the guards and took from the Tree a fruit that hung upon it, and turned to go........ isildur came at last hardly back to Romenna and delivered the fruit to the hands of Amandil, ere his strength failed him. Then the fruit was planted in secret..... and s hoot arose from it and sprouted in the spring.


He stole a fruit.


Quote:
....but in the ship of Isildur was guarded the young tree, the scion of Nimloth the Fair.


And sailed away with a tree."

From what books come this quotes? Don't say it's from HOME, pls. I believe in Unfinished Tales and the Silmarillion, he took a branch... anyway i've never heard of Romenna before in UT nor Sil... i can't give you those quotes or investigate it as my essay is lost somewhere right now. More later, hopefully.

There could be differences between HOME, UT and the Sil, and there indeed are some, for instance the way Isildur dies... in UT he reaches the other shore and gets arrowed down, whilst in the Sil he gets shot whilst "labouring" in the stream.
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Vee
has made 2834 posts and is an Elf from Lothlorien and is not online.
Posted Friday 2nd July 2004 (12:16am)
Vir asked:
Quote:
From what books come this quotes?




Sorry, I should have made that clear - The Silmarillion - Akallabeth
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Grondmaster
has made 25465 posts and is a Dwarf from Glittering Caves and has sailed into the West.
Posted Friday 2nd July 2004 (02:10am)
Quote:
... And Sauron urged the King to cut down the White Tree, Nimloth the Fair, that grew in his courts, for it was a memorial of the Eldar and of the light of Valinor.

At first the King would not assent to this, since he believed that the fortunes of his house were tied up with the Tree, ... when Amandil heard the rumour of this ... he spoke to Elendil and the sons of Elendil, recalling the tale of the Trees of Valinor; and Isildur said no word, but went out by night and ... he passed alone in disguise to Armenlos and to the courts of the King, which were now forbidden to the Faithful; and he came to the place of the Tree, which was forbidden by the orders of Sauron, and the Tree was watched day and night by the guards in his service.

At that time Nimloth was dark and bore no bloom, for it was late in autumn, and winter was nigh; and Isildur passed through the guards and took from the Tree a fruit that hung upon it, and turned to go. But the guard was aroused, and he was assailed, and fought his way out, receiving many wounds; and he escaped, and because he was disguised it was not discovered who had laid hands on the Tree. But Isildur came at last hardly back to Romenna and delivered the fruit to the hands of Amandil, ere his strength failed him. Then the fruit was planted in secret, and it was blessed by Amandil; and a shoot arose from it and sprouted in the spring. But when the first leaf opened then Isildur, who had lain long and come near to death, arose and was troubled no more by his wounds.

None too soon was this done; for after the assault the King yielded to Sauron and felled the White Tree, and turned then wholly away from the allegiance of his fathers. - from about half way into the AKALLABETH in The Silmarillion.
You can understand Aragorn's joy at finding a sapling from this same tree planted high on the mountain side. Aragorn's sapling symbolically, as well literally, tied his realm back to Numenor and his fore fathers. 'The sign has been given, ...' - You can read this part at the end of 'The Steward and the King' in RotK.
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Vee
has made 2834 posts and is an Elf from Lothlorien and is not online.
Posted Friday 2nd July 2004 (10:15am)
The Tree of Nimloth was very important to Isildur and his people otherwise he wouldn't have risked his life to preserve it.

Why was it so important?
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Virumor
has made 3563 posts and is a Rohirrim from Edoras and is not online.
Posted Friday 2nd July 2004 (10:40am)
It was the tree who descended from Celeborn (not Galadriel's husband, heh), who descended from Galathilion, who descended from Telperion, the very first tree, one of the Two Trees. A gift from the Eldar and a very important symbol for them, it showed their connection with the Eldar and reminded them of great deeds of the past, perhaps.

It was also a symbol of the isle of Numenor and the reign of the Kings... remember later on in Gondor the Tree looked a bit sad after the last King of Gondor perished. Luckily, Aragorn later on found a new sibling on the flanks of Mindolluin.

Quote:
At that time Nimloth was dark and bore no bloom

It bore no Bloom... that's a very lucky tree!
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Stonehelm
has made 3240 posts and is a Dwarf from Moria and is not online.
Posted Friday 2nd July 2004 (04:11pm)
I think Isildur, while a strong leader, had that hindering pride that many people of Gondor had. He ignored advice, thinking that he could handle anything on hs own, namely the Ring. I think that his pride was his downfall.. He insisted of keeping the Ring after Elrond had warned him, he wanted to keep the Ring as the heirloom of his household, a reminder that he, Isildur, had aided in the defeat of Sauron.
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Bugyfeanor
has made 668 posts and is an Elf from Rivendell and is not online.
Posted Thursday 9th September 2004 (11:38pm)
I think Isildur is best described in Unfinished Tales, where we can see his reasons for taking the Ring in the first place: he actually thought he could unmake all that was made by Sauron with its help. Of course, since the Ring had not the power of creation (as he soon finds out), he's left with a deadly weapon which he cannot use. One of the most moving moments is the one when, attacked from all sides by Orcs, at Gladden Fields, his eldest son (soory, lapsus... hehe) tells him to use the Ring and escape. It's then that Isildur finally understands the dreadfull consequences of his actions: all of his Men will die, his sons too and the victory against Sauron would end in disaster. In that emotional moment, he asks for forgivness from his son and leaves the battlefield, not out of cowardice, but because the Ring was not to fall in enemy hands.

I've always considered Isildur one of the most intriguing and complex characters from Tolkien's work. He defies Sauron (which held a personal grudge against him) by saving a bud of the White Tree; he's clearly a valiant and good man, greatly respected and admired by his people... Yet his only moment of weakness we know about proves to be crucial to an entire Age to come. Hmmmm... interesting, don't you think?
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Irima-arwen
has made 65 posts and is an Elf from Rivendell and is not online.
Posted Wednesday 17th November 2004 (12:22am)
I think that in the LOTR, when they showed Islidur going ito the river it (in my opinion. They betrayed him almost like a coward. It looked like he was fleeing from the battle. (this was when i orcs attacked him when he was coming back from the war.) Irima-Arwen
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Grondmaster
has made 25465 posts and is a Dwarf from Glittering Caves and has sailed into the West.
Posted Wednesday 17th November 2004 (01:17am)
Quote:
I think that in the LOTR, when they showed Islidur going ito the river it (in my opinion. They betrayed him almost like a coward. It looked like he was fleeing from the battle. (this was when i orcs attacked him when he was coming back from the war.)
Here is what Tolkien wrote in Section 1 of Part Three of the Unfinished Tales, which parallels his command early on in the battle to Ohtar, to take the sheath and shards of Narsil, Elendil's sword, and flee the battle, lest they fall into the hands of the enemy. "Save it from capture by all means that you can find, and at all costs; even at the cost of being held a coward who deserted me." Later on when the battle was most certainly lost, and with two of his sons dead or dying, his remaining son came to Isuldur:
Quote:
"My King," said Elendur, "Ciryon is dead and Araton is dying. Your last counsellor must advise nay command you, as you commanded Ohtar. Go! Take your burden, and at all costs bring it to the Keepers: even at the cost of abandoning your men and me!"

"King's son," said Isuldur, "I knew that I must do so; but I feared the pain. Nor could I go without your leave. Forgive me, and my pride that has brought you to this doom." Elendur kissed him. "Go! Go now!" he said.
The Keepers were the Keepers of the Three Elven Rings and of course his burden was the One Ring.
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Virumor
has made 3563 posts and is a Rohirrim from Edoras and is not online.
Posted Wednesday 17th November 2004 (01:52am)
Quote:
I think that in the LOTR, when they showed Islidur going ito the river it (in my opinion. They betrayed him almost like a coward. It looked like he was fleeing from the battle. (this was when i orcs attacked him when he was coming back from the war.)


Isildur was not a coward. He just wanted to escape the Orcs so that he could bring the One Ring to the keepers of the Three, instead of just dying with the rest, slaughtered like a chicken, and leaving the Ring to the Enemy.

Remember : courage is fleeing into the direction of the enemy! I
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Vee
has made 2834 posts and is an Elf from Lothlorien and is not online.
Posted Wednesday 17th November 2004 (10:12am)
The difference between Unfinished Tales and The Simarillion/LotR has been discussed before. In the Sil/LotR Isildur did not intend taking the Ring to the three Keepers. But I agree, he wasn't a coward although he was influenced by the Ring. Boromir wasn't a coward either. Not a good end for either of them though.
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Rhapsody
has made 599 posts and is an Elf from Rivendell and is not online.
Posted Wednesday 17th November 2004 (12:32pm)
Quote:
He stole a fruit.

Quote:
....but in the ship of Isildur was guarded the young tree, the scion of Nimloth the Fair.

And sailed away with a tree.


Let's keep it at a sapling shall we Smile Smilie I like Isildur. It is a pity he swayed for the power of the One ring, deceived even, but all the things he did before he got hold of that pesky thing were valorous indeed.

Even after the fall of Numenor his life was not that easy in Gondor. If I remember it correctly he lost Minas Ithil to Sauron and more happened that I cannot recall that swiftly.

Virumor: I am very interested in your essay. Please let me know where I can read it..
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Virumor
has made 3563 posts and is a Rohirrim from Edoras and is not online.
Posted Wednesday 17th November 2004 (02:57pm)
Quote:
Virumor: I am very interested in your essay. Please let me know where I can read it..

I can e-mail that to anyone who is interested.

I wrote that essay after a heated discussion in another thread.

Quote:
Even after the fall of Numenor his life was not that easy in Gondor. If I remember it correctly he lost Minas Ithil to Sauron and more happened that I cannot recall that swiftly.

No, Minas Ithil was conquered 1000-2000 years after Isildur's death. I don't know the exact date, as i don't have the LOTR Appendices by hand, but it happened deep into the Third Age and Isildur died at the very beginning of the Third Age.
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Rhapsody
has made 599 posts and is an Elf from Rivendell and is not online.
Posted Wednesday 17th November 2004 (03:07pm)
Am I mixing up ages again??

Minas Ithil:
Built in II 3320 or shortly thereafter
Under the control of Sauron between II 3429 and c. II 3434
Captured by the Nazgûl and renamed Minas Morgul in III 2002

It was believed that Sauron had perished in the Downfall of Numenor, but his spirit surivived and he returned to Mordor in the same year that Gondor was founded. With the One Ring, he secretly rebuilt his power. In 3429 of the Second Age, Sauron seized Minas Ithil and burned the White Tree, but Isildur escaped with a seedling of the Tree.

After Sauron was defeated by the armies of the Last Alliance in 3441 S.A., a watch was kept from Minas Ithil. But in 1636 of the Third Age, the Great Plague came from the east and killed many in Gondor. The guard on Mordor began to relax and people left Minas Ithil.

Appendix A: "The Numenorean Kings," p. 317; "Gondor and the Heirs of Anarion," p. 332; "The Stewards," p. 336
Appendix B: "The Tale of Years," p. 365, 368
The Silmarillion: "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age," p. 291-93, 296-97

Oh Virumor, you have my e-mail addy don't you? I love well written essays.
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Virumor
has made 3563 posts and is a Rohirrim from Edoras and is not online.
Posted Wednesday 17th November 2004 (03:27pm)
Looks like Isildur lost and regained Minas Ithil. No Rhaps i don't have your e-mail; you can PM it to me to avoid spamming from other PTers...
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Rhapsody
has made 599 posts and is an Elf from Rivendell and is not online.
Posted Wednesday 17th November 2004 (03:55pm)
Quote:
Looks like Isildur lost and regained Minas Ithil.


Yups, and had to run off with a sapling again. That is why that stuck around.. probably. First he cuts off a sapling in Númenor, now at Minas Ithil (before the tree gets burned down.. again). It makes the whole symbolism of the tree at the Court Yard in Return of the King beautiful doesn't it? The posibility of the White Tree burning again, somehow a sapling is found on the mountain hillside.

Interesting!
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Floyd_n_milan
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Posted Wednesday 17th November 2004 (04:20pm)
This is all in the "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age" chapter of Silmarillion and Appendix A of the LotR. I remember reading all this in these chapters yesterday. I'm just too lazy to quote anything here!
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