I see what you are saying, but how far are you in the book? See, in the book, I feel Legolas and Gimli are on about the same level as members of the fellowship (the hobbits are the heros, for Tolkien, Merry and Pippin have much bigger roles to come than what they got in TT while Aragorn is THE KING and greatest man on earth, while Gandalf is, well, Gandalf). That is why I think they end up such good friends, as they are the two supporting members in a way. Now, in the movies, Legolas is made uber-cool, as everyone has been noting, while Gimli is made into comic relief. That's a bit unfair, I think. Legolas has a wide range of skills, because he's an elf, that he can use more often than Gimli can apply his dwarf skills (the fellowship never needs to forge weapons, armor or construct anything out of stone, wheras far-seeing eyes are always usefull in the open plains of Rohan). I know that Moria may be seen as "his turf" but he had never been there, and in fact dwarves hadn't been back there in hundreds of years, apart from Balin's expedition which they didn't have much contact with (didn't even know they were all dead!). I thought that, though I don't remember exactly, in the books he takes a more active role leading them through the caves, while Aragorn and Legolas are mostly silent. Gandalf is, of course, in charge, because he's been through before.

We mustn't overlook, however, his value to the fellowship as a plain and simple warrior. He's probably the second best fighter in there, at close range. Aragorn is, of course, matchless, but Legolas, in the books, is very arrow-dependent, and not quite the knife-wielding badass of the films. You'll see when you get to the competition part--it is in the books! Also, he saves Eomer's life at Helm's deep (not a big spoiler--though in the movies, Eomer isn't even at the battle... ). And, looking just at the films, Gimli does save Aragorn in the battle at the end of Fellowship (as does Legolas, I think). In the two towers film, even his fighting has to be comic, though, as he gets trapped under two wargs in the first battle...

Anyway, I think the point raised about Gimli as helping dwarf-elf relations is a good one. Basically, though, I feel that he and Legolas are there to do the fighting and support Aragorn and the hobbits in their quest, which they do admirably, and the quest couldn't have been completed without two such fighters. Does Legolas not deserve the "why is he there" question simply because he can see or miles, shoot a bow and help Aragorn with the tracking a little? If so, then Gimli is there because he can wield an axe and protect and serve his companions and represent the dwarves in the quest to save the world.

And don't forget, Gimli's Dwarfish knowledge of stone working came in pretty darn handy at Helm's Deep AND Minas Tirith.

So I guess that PR is pretty important, I hadn't really thought of it that way before. And yes, Gimli is a very good fighter, perhaps I haven't gotten to the parts where he really stands out.

Thanks for the insight!

OH BOY. I got to the part where Gimli pulls his weight. He really kicked some butt in the battle at Helm's Deep, in a VERY DWARFY way...whoa. NO MORE questions about Gimli from me.

**HUGS grondy in renewed fellowship**

[Edited on 11/2/2003 by musicimprovedme]

Gloin and Gimli were at the Council of Elrond on business of their own, and so it was that Gimli got roped into becoming part of the Fellowship. Had Dain's son been there, he probably would have gone instead of Gimli. They were hardly likely to send a messenger to Erebor, however, asking Dain's son to urgently accompany them on a secret mission in which he would most likely die.

The fellowship was chosen from people who just happened to be there, and none of them had been summoned to the meeting. They had all turned up for their own reasons.

I think that if Eru is the closest thing that Tolkien offers us for God, that he most definitely must have been involved to bring all the right people to Elrond at the right time.

SO....can I get an amen for Grondy??

I would also add that since all these seemingly random errands were part of the same problem, it made the fellowship's mission a reasonable thing to do, AND it showed us exactly how big of a menace the Ring was already proving to be. By forming the fellowship, each person who "happened" upon the Counsel of Elrond was taking care of their own business as well as each others', and hoping to head off future, larger disaster that was certain even if they didn't know exactly what was in store.

[Edited on 12/2/2003 by musicimprovedme]

I'm not sure at all...but if I was asking that question, I would consult the Hobbit. I'm a nanny and between jobs at the moment so most of my books are in boxes right now, and I haven't read the Hobbit in over a year, but if I had my copy of Hobbit, I would be looking for something about Gloin, Gimli's dad, in there. Maybe he is spunkier or braver or more honorable, OR maybe a better friend to Bilbo or something and based on his father's reputation, Gimli was Tolkien's natural choice as the "heir" for this job.

On the other hand, if that pans out not to be true, and Gimli is just an ordinary guy, then maybe Tolkien used him to pose the question of exactly HOW honorable dwarfs are as a race. As if to say..."well here's Gimli, Joe Schmo who represented the dwarves, and look at what he did. Now, what do you suppose the Dwarf Royalty (or whatever) is like?"

It's just a hunch.

[Edited on 12/2/2003 by musicimprovedme]

That's exactly the reasoning I was looking for! I didn't realise Dwalin had died before the council. Gloin is then the closest living dwarf of Durin's line who isn't Dain. Perfect! (Dori and Nori are of Durin's line, but not as close to the royal line, as noted on the family tree.) Thanks!

Wait a moment! Dwalin did NOT die before the council of Elrond! He died in 3112, 4th Age! I thought I would have remembered if he had. And it took looking at an old encylclopedia article that I wrote years ago to find out! http://www.barrowdowns.com/Description.asp?Size=&Param=EntryID&Data=305&Thumb=

Speaking of Gimli being polite, does anyone know what he says to Haldir in one of the added scenes in Lorien (extended FotR DVD)? Aragorn obviously understands him, and sys "that was not curteous", but what does he say? I don't know much khuzdul...

[Edited on 14/2/2003 by Dain_II]