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I'm going to have to think about this one. Anyone else have any ideas?
I'd be scared of the **** of Sauron personally. Just been over at your site btw Halo, s'very nice.
*Plastic
**** of Sauron? I'd be really worryed about that, but the Butt of Sauron is probaly much worse! Thanx for the compliment about my site!
Oops did I mispell Duck again? *Innocentlook* Didn't know you were a Goth Halo, used to be one myself back in the day....
*Plastic
I don't think I would like to meet Sauron himself fully in person... Wink Smilie His eye is scary enough...
But isn't it so that when he gets more power (when he gets his hands on the Ring) that he grows a human shape? I didn't like the way he was portrayed in the beginning of the film, with the battle between Elves and Men against the Evil Forces. Not scary enough...
*reading
I liked his Mr Vibrator Head look! twas Humorous in the extreme!
When Pippin saw the Eye it was via Orthanc's palantir. Oh, I see, you thought the physical palantir was called the "Eye of Sauron", is that right?
lol! Big Smile Smilie I know... And I remember thinking: dzjee, I'm laughing at Sauron, that can't be good... Very promising for the rest of the film... Just as well that they introduced the Eye later on... Big Smile Smilie
Didn't look any less pornographic though.....
or is that just my mind again?
Nope. Just your mind again, *Plastic!
Big Smile Smilie
Fair enough then!
Yeah, Tommy. Gandalf talked about it in the Appendices. And someone mentioned somewhere else - I can't remember. Unfinished tales maybe?

That's why I thought that Sauron has regained his physical body by the time Frodo & co. set off to destroy the ring. My understanding was that the Eye of Sauron was actually the palantir itself since he used it to watch over his territory & spy out far-off lands. I never took seriously the fact that Pippin saw the eye - hmm, must really re-read that passage again.
*ungoliant
Hang on, I thought the Eye of Sauron was just a boring old palantir? So I wouldn't be too afraid of a stupid rock. But did they change it in the movie or something?

Anyway, don't worry about sounding weird, Halo. Around here it's considered normal. After all, there's Plastic you see. Smile Smilie
Pippen saw the Eye of Sauron in the Palantir, but it wasn't exclusively there. There's a pretty big passage where Frodo saw the Eye...either just before or just after Boromir tried to take the ring...I'd look it up, but, too lazy just now...Smile Smilie

Actually, when I read the book, I didn't think the eye was an actual physical thing. i thought it was more of like, Frodo could sense that Sauron was searching for it and kind of compared it to having a giant eye sweeping the land...that sort of thing.
I thought Sauon was unable to get any physical form at all. And so the Red Eye ist just what come into the mind of those his toughts bend to? Or did I mix up some things here?
well, when he has the ring, he can have physical shape, but without it, he's not strong enough.
Sauron isn't able to take physical form unless he gets the ring, right?
You are all right on track. Pippin saw the eye in the Palantir, just as we saw Saruman do in the movie, using the same one that Pippin will use later. And Frodo saw the eye in the mirror of Galadreil and also after his trice with Boromir, prior to the crossing of the river.

I also think Saron is unable to take physical form without the ring and that his life force is tied up within it. His spiritual manifestation is the eye, only when he is looking thru his palantir. And I don't think the palantiri are just two-way communicaters, I think those with strong enough will power can use them to see what they will, for instance Aragorn at Helm's Deep seeing the threat of the Black Fleet of Unbar. Of course, these are just my opinions, I may not be right.
*stupid
Just what I wanted to say, Grondy. Wink Smilie
The eye is great in the film, a black small thingie with lots of fire around it, great! (and more scary than Him in human form. And somewhere in the book Gandalf explains to Frodo that Sauron cannot take human shape unless he has the Ring. Like Grondy said, all his force is in there... Bit stupid to put all your force into a Ring... :P
As long as we've got *Plastic around here, no one sounds weird. Good one, *ungoliant! Couldn't have said it better... Big Smile Smilie
I could take offence!
And I was all geared up to put in my bit here saying that if he didn't have a physical form yet, why the hell did he want the ring so badly? No fingers, big problem! And then you all go and ruin my argument. damn
lol
He wants the ring TO take human shape, so he can gain even more force than he already had. (right?)
Big Smile Smilie
I think so, but I'm just not sure of anything anymore. I really liked my theory as well...
I would never have guessed... Smile Smilie
Since I had to give up my copy, I'm not sure of anything either. Weird.
Since we're all particularly sensitive nowadays, I've decided to take offence since you're offended by my non-malicious offensive statement, Plastic! :P

And YESSSSSSSSSSS! Finally, we have a Gollum! Welcome, my preciousssesssssssss! Smile Smilie

bttt, I never realised that Sauron was unable to take physical form in LOTR without the ring. I thought that he had already regained his physical body around the time Gandalf & co. drove him out of Mirkwood. Interesting way of looking at it. Have to think about that one.
*ungoliant
Love to know what Sauron thinks of Sauron.
Shhhh! Don't start him off again!


*whispers*
We finally got him to admit that he eventually died.

*nomal voice again*
Yes, Allyssa, I'd like to hear what...er...Saruman thinks of Sauron too. Wink Smilie
*stupid
Quote:

bttt, I never realised that Sauron was unable to take physical form in LOTR without the ring. I thought that he had already regained his physical body around the time Gandalf & co. drove him out of Mirkwood. Interesting way of looking at it. Have to think about that one.
*ungoliant


Are you talking about sth in the Sil here, *ungoliant? That would explain why I can't follow you. If you're not, I must urgently re-read LOTR. Smile Smilie
It's not Sil, it's part Hobbit part Lotr Tommy.
Yeah, I thought that Sauron had his own palantir (stolen from Minas Ithil or somewhere) to view his realm. I remember Gandalf telling Pippin something about it on the way to Gondor...something about there being seven stones. So Saruman had one (which Aragorn reclaimed), Denethor another, and the third with Sauron. So that was his "Eye" - at least I think so.
Yes, Sauron used the relocated palantir from Minas Ithil (renamed Minas Morgal after the Nazul took over its management) . So I suppose when he used it to farsee, and anyone noticed, what they saw was the manafestation of his eye. The four ring bearers didn't need a palantir every body else probably did.
I think you're right, I think he also had the "key" stone from osgiliath that controlled all the others, which allowed him to bend what Denethor and Saruman saw in their stones, thus aiding the downfall of the west.
Exactly! I always thought that there were two eyes in LOTR. The Osiligath or Minas Morgul palantir was the actual 'Eye of Sauron' that everyone seemed to fear. After all, he did have a human acting as the Mouth of Sauron, so why not the palantir as the Eye?

The second eye was what probably Pippin saw - Sauron's real eyeball in this case. After all, if a bug or a microbe looked up at the scientist studying it through a magnifying glass or a microscope, it would probably see a great big eye looking at it. And if it was dark, it wouldn't be able to see the rest of the person's body - so that's why I thought Sauron existed physically.
*ungoliant
I thought that Sauron lost his body (forever?) after his first defeat and that he was just some sort of a shapeless ghost. Now when he regained strength (Hobbit and LotR) he came back (still without body) and those he bend his mind to in oreder to talk to them or to force them to something had in their minds the vision of the Red Eye.
Now when Saruman and Denthor used their Panaltirs, Sauron 'communicated' with them through the one from Minas Ithil/Minas Morgul. Of course he was much more powerful and could by the power of his mind suppress them. They had Saurons mind in their own.
Does anybody agree?
It was because he had the key stone I'm afraid. it's in the Sil, under the bit about the palantiri. But I think he was supposed to have no real bodily form, unfortunately, though I can't remember where it says it right now, and I don't intend to look. Big Smile Smilie
I agree with Pete...I really should read the Sil, huh?

Wait, so, Ungoliant...you're saying that Sauron's actual eye is in the Palantir? Like he cut it out at some point and chucked it in the stone? (eww...icky.) Or are you saying like he's looking through on the other side and whoever's on the one side sees through at a distorted image of his eye?
I think she means the latter, at least I really hope so Smile Smilie
Latter, yeah - that's what I thought Pippin saw.

Anyway, Sauron also lost his body when Numenor collapsed into the sea (I believe he went back to Mordor as a shapeless ghost or whatever). So he regained his body once, in a short space of time, in time for Gil-Galad, Elendil & Isildur to defeat him (Isildul chopped off his physical finger, right?).

I must have missed the part where it said that he couldn't regain his body again after that, since I thought that if he could physically reassemble himself once, what's to stop him from doing it again?

Except, of course, after he REALLY DIED when Frodo chucked the ring into Mt. Doom (in case our Sauron is listening). Wink Smilie


[Edited on 3/1/2002 by Ungoliant]
So glad you put that last bit in Smile Smilie I think Gandalf categorically states that Sauron hasn't yet achieved a new physical form in Lotr, but I'll let grondy look it up as he enjoys that sort of thing far more than I.
Hint: I think it's in The Shadow of the Past again.
Quote:
"This is the Master-ring, the One Ring to rule them all. This is the One Ring that he lost many ages ago, to the great weakening of his power. ... Always after a defeat and a respite, the Shadow takes another shape and grows again. ... The Enemy still lacks one thing to give him strength and knowledge to beat down all restistance, break the last defences, and cover all the land in a seconds darkness. He lacks the One Ring. ... He only needs the One; for he made that Ring himself, it is his, and he let a great part of his own former power pass into it, so that he could rule all the others. If he recovers it, then he will command them all again, wherever they be, even the Three , and all that has been wrought with them will be laid bare, and he will be stronger than ever. ... So he is seeking it, seeking it, and all his thought is bent on it. It is his great hope and our great fear. ...
I'll keep looking but can't spend any more time on it tonight.
Oh, I thought it was in that bit. Sure I read it recently anyway, good luck Grondy!
So, Pippin saw the eye through the Palantir of Saruman (reclaimed by Aragorn). And Sauron can only take human shape when he has the Ring. Then what are we still discussing about?? Did I miss sth? Big Smile Smilie
No, we just had a few disagreements over some minor points, and have now sent Grondy off to get some conclusive proof of Sauron's shapelessness.
Don't hold your breath waiting for it. I'm not having any luck, may be reading the wrong translation.
Tommy's got a bunch of new books...LOTR is one of them, I believe. Nudge, nudge, hint, hint.
Yeah, go to it Tommy, bout time you did some work around here! Wink Smilie
Okay, I don't know how to do that qute stuff, anyway:

Qute from the Akaalabęth:
"But Sauron was not of mortal flesh, and though he was robbed now of that shape in which he had wrought so great an evil, so that he could never again appear fair to the eyes of Men, yet his spirit arose out of the deep and passed as a shadow and a black wind over the sea, and came back to Middle-Earth and to Mordor that was his home. There he took up again his great Ring in Barad-dűr, ans dwelt there, dark and silent, until he wrought himself a new guise, an image of malice and hatred made visible; and the Eye of Sauron the Triible few could endure."

No, as far as I understand that, it is NOT said that he lost power to gain a pysical being. Whcih would make it possible that he lost that power first after he lost his One Ring.

Oh, I just found that here, too.

Qute from Of The Rings Of Power And The Third Age:
"But Sauron also was thrown down, and with the hilt-shard of Narsil Isildur cut the Ruling Ring from the hand of Sauron and took it for his own. Then Sauron was for the time vanquished, and he forsook his body, and his spirit fled far away and hid in waste places; and he took no visible shape again for many long years."

Now, what do you think of this?
Quote:
Oops did I mispell Duck again? *Innocentlook* Didn't know you were a Goth Halo, used to be one myself back in the day....
*Plastic

Smile Smilie Hmmmm. I don't know about being a goth, more like a semi-goth. I had to cut back a bit, the kids next door to me started thinking I was a vampire or something. :P
Quote:
I don't think I would like to meet Sauron himself fully in person... Wink Smilie His eye is scary enough...
But isn't it so that when he gets more power (when he gets his hands on the Ring) that he grows a human shape? I didn't like the way he was portrayed in the beginning of the film, with the battle between Elves and Men against the Evil Forces. Not scary enough...
*reading

He has hands?
First passage: Agree with you I do, power he lost after the One Ring was forged.

2nd passage:

Quote:

...Then Sauron was for the time vanquished, and he forsook his body, and his spirit fled far away and hid in waste places; and he took no visible shape again for many long years."


So he stayed shapeless for many long years - didn't say that he didn't eventually take shape again *. He could have regained a new body by the time Gandalf drove the Necromancer out of Mirkwood. Never mind - we can agree to disagree. 'Till I get my books back, that is. Wink Smilie

* - apply usual Sauron disclaimer here. Smile Smilie
Yeah, I think it was at the time when he reentered Dol Guldur that he took shape again.
Nevertheless, I still think that the Eye of Sauron isn't his physical eye.
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