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HI EVERYONE.I REALY THINK THAT EOWYN WAS MAKING A FOOL OUT OF FARAMIR.SHE NEVER LOVED HIM.SHE JUST WANTED TO GET IN ARAGORN'S NERVES.WHAT DO YOU THINK?
I think your caps lock key is on.
well personally i think that it is genuine love between them both, to start with i think that Aragorn is alot more cleverer than that, could he ever be jealous when he has Arwen the Evenstar, plus i think that Eowyn is more smarter than that anyway, or was it her womenly instincts to try it?? Elf With a Big Grin Smilie (no offence, men can do alot worse Big Smile Smilie )
I think we already have threads about Éowyn. No need to start another one.Go to the Concerning Éowyn thread, for instance, if you want to share any opinions about her.

And btw, NInerl, next time do not post in caps. You're shouting, and we are not deaf.
Shouting? I detect the same decibel level in all the posts in this thread: 0. Though there's no reason to provoke people when there's a perfectly good toggle button (well, in most cases.) But yeah, I agree, by the time Eowyn started carrying a torch for Faramir King Ellesar was taking the wife he'd been pursuing for over half a century; kind of difficult to make him jealous. Faramir and Eowyn are as represented, and Aragorn as well: IN THE BOOKS.
I have a lot of respect for Éowyn, Faramir, and Aragorn and do not believe Νinerl's hypothesis would hold water, because Éowyn wouldn't have stooped so low; Faramir won the ladies heart with his empathy; and Aragron was nobody's fool.

Νinerl: A word to the wise, in case you haven't yet understood: the use of all capitals is considered as yelling and as such should be limited to those cases where it is really meant to make a very strong statement. Do not consider yourself browbeat about this, just learn from it and enjoy our company as we will yours. Happy Elf Smilie
oh, I thought caps were for the seeing impaired. no I didn't that is a falsehood. But I have always wanted to throw that out and see if in deed anyone uses it for that purpose.
I am still tormented by the Eowyn Faramir thing. I identify with her most of anyone in the whole in the LOTR save Frodo.I just don't know whether, being not healed in mind yet from all the traumas of her life and her major crush on Aragorn , she might of convinced herself that she loved this kind, gentle dear man. I always worry that down the road when she finally knew herself she might discover she loved him but as a friend and because she was noble and was used to doing her duty and just silently went on with things, careful to hide the truth from her devoted husband and children and friends etc. She was after all a mortal woman with all the flaws and strengths as any other woman.
I think Eowyn did truely love Faramir. I think it did take awhile for her feelings for Aragorn to lessen and the feelings for Faramir to grow but she was a very honest person and I believe completely that she wouldn't say she loved someone when she didn't. They were friends when they stood on the walls of the city and saw the eagles bring good news to Minas Tirith and after there was time for her heart to heal and her friendly affection for Faramir to grow into something more. Hearing him say that he loved her made her look inside herself and see how she really felt and that she could have joy in her life again. Plus, there was plenty of time for her to change her mind. Anyone who would defy their king, disguise themselves as a man and ride to war wouldn't lie and say they loved someone out of a sense of duty..she was a strong gal and did what she believed in doing. It would be a tragedy if someone as sweet as Faramir was decieved but there's no doubt in my mind that he wasn't; they lived happily ever after.
I (No offence intended)
I couldn't agree more, Sian!

Leelee, I think you have a very depressing view on Faramir and Eowyn, Leelee. I don't recognize them at all when you talk about them. Sad Smilie Have you ever thought about how much those two have in common?

Both had a royal upbringing, both lost their mother early on, both had grown up among warriors, both had a loving older brother, both had struggled to be seen as equals to their brothers, both had recently lost a brother/cousin (Theodred), both had father(figure)s who were under the spell of evil maias, both nearly died in the battle, both lost their father/uncle during the battle, both were highly loved by their people, both had their roots firmly planted in this part of the land, both had proved themselves as brave warriors...

Both their lives had completly changed by all this. But now the evil is gone and they are free. What better way to start rebuilding the land and their lives, than side by side with a person you can share your entire life of happiness and sadness with, and who can honestly say "I know exactly how you feel" ?
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both had father(figure)s who were under the spell of evil maias

I agree with everything, but Denethor was never under the spell of Sauron - if you mean that literally, that is. He was a rightful user of the Palantir, hence Sauron could not force him unlike Saruman.

Like Tolkien wrote in his Letters, Denethor was merely tainted by politics.

See also The Enigmatic Denethor.

Furthermore, I also like to note that Theoden was not under the spell of Saruman as shown in the TTT movie. He was under the influence of the poison of a sycophant instead.

I doubt whether Eowyn was regarded by the Eorlingas the way Faramir was regarded as a lesser version of his brother by the ppl of Minas Tirith. It is different because any competition was never possible for Eowyn was a woman. That said though : Eowyn might have felt she was being left out of everything because she was a woman, it was not so :
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'Behold! I go forth, and it seems like to be my last riding,' said Théoden. 'I have no child. Théodred my son is slain. I name Éomer my sister-son to be my heir. If neither of us return, then choose a new lord as you will. But to some one I must now entrust my people that I leave behind, to rule them in my place. Which of you will stay?'
No man spoke.
'Is there none whom you would name? In whom do my people trust?'
'In the House of Eorl,' answered Háma.
'But Éomer I cannot spare, nor would he stay,' said the king; 'and he is the last of that House.'
'I said not Éomer,' answered Háma. 'And he is not the last. There is Éowyn, daughter of Éomund, his sister. She is fearless and high-hearted. All love her. Let her be as lord to the Eorlingas, while we are gone.'
(from TTT)

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I always worry that down the road when she finally knew herself she might discover she loved him but as a friend and because she was noble and was used to doing her duty and just silently went on with things, careful to hide the truth from her devoted husband and children and friends etc. She was after all a mortal woman with all the flaws and strengths as any other woman.

Tolkien did write about this in his Letters; he wrote that it is possible to love two people at the same time -indeed, Eowyn was still 'indecisive' until Faramir openly told her he loved him (the cheek!)- but eventually she came to love him like a citizen loves his/her ruling King.

I am sure this excerpt has already be posted elsewhere.

Anyway, maybe Eowyn's 'indecision' or realizing whom she really loved was based on Tolkien and Edith? After all, Edith was originally betrothed to someone else before Tolkien swayed her.

At any rate, in the old days there were different rules for the nobility. Marriage was merely a way to seal political deals or ensure power. Eowyn would gladly be stolen by the most important man in Gondor safe one, instead of returning to the thatched barns of the House of Eorl, where brigands drink in the reek, their brats rolling on the floor amongst their dogs...

In the words of Duke Paulus Atreides : 'If you want to bring down your House, marry out of love!'.
that was one wise guy; Duke Paulus Atreides

but i don't think eowyn really loved faramir; she just wanted someone to get around with...
I guess my concern about Eowyn is that this particular relationship is alone treated totally different by Tolkien from any other in all his books including Silmarillion. Every other one of his lovers love each other from the first and nothing changes and not torture nor being torn from one another nor death changes it. It is peculiar to me. And I have counselled teens and sat and listened to the grief of men and women and after a while I began to see something that repeated itself over and over. And that is that the fundamental heart and thought pattern and method of operation never seem to change in a person. Oh they might grow harder after a loss, or become fearful because of a trauma, that sort of thing. But their core being never changes. If they started out being a humanitarian, grief might halt that for a little or reality might make then take a step backward, but in the end they will overcome and find a way to continue.
With Eowyn since a child she had a certain thought about life and the sort of person she wanted to be with, she had definite feelings about what she wished to accomplish with her life.Whether in war or peace she would have those seeds that would never change.
And the very fact that she defied a King whom she adored and went into battle even despite what Aragorn said, tells me that in the end she would always revert to that type of thinking.
As late as just before the coming of the great eagle she still rebuffed the love of Faramir. Certainly she was more kind to him. So when Tolkien writes that at last Eowyn's heart changed or at least she understood it, it does not fit with anything at all. And he did that at times and admitted it. I am not saying that the gist of the story does not prove me wrong. I will accept that.
I am saying that just as a human being I doubt that in such a short time Eowyn had found herself and suddenly fell head over heals in love with a man that only days before she said to him:

"Lose what you have found my lord?....I know not what in these days you have found tht you could lose. But come, my friend, let us not speak of it!Let us not speak at all!
I realize it was because of the worry over Mordor. But look at WW1 and 11 in this mortal world. It was just during such times of fear and gloom and not knowing the future that men and women declared their undying love and clung to one another before being torn apart and having to say good bye.
Anyone, having just heard that the war is over and having grown fond of the place where they came back to their mind and saw their body healed could feel all happy and even fancy themselves in love. That is not hard. The other of Tolkien's characters had this despite the worst scenarios from the beginning. It is just hard for me to imagine this although I love her dearly and he also, he is among my most favorite characters both in the book and on screen.
I wish I could think like you all. but.......................
i see where you are coming from Leelee and i agree with it to some extent but overall i believe Eowyn and Faramir lived in content and happiness until the rest of their days. I believe in the ROTF Appendices it says a little about their life after the war, or maybe it is written about else where. I don't have enough time to look it up and provide a quote right now.

They say we are all unique (isn't that odd? If we are all unique, then define unique? ) Since we are all different and can react different to emotions (true by our characteristics you can predict certain peoples reactions to specific scenarios) however a certain person might go off on an unpredictable tangent.



Vir, it was ment as a rather quick sketch of what they had in common. I don't remember enough to go into any details. I'm glad you do though! Smile Smilie I really need to re-read the books...

Leelee, you can be the friend who goes up to Eowyn when the party is over and ask "Hun, are you sure everything is ok?" just to make sure. Smile Smilie

They both have a lot of scars to deal with, but I think that being together and having a loved one who truly understands what the other has been through, gives them both a lot of support and security.
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Every other one of his lovers love each other from the first and nothing changes and not torture nor being torn from one another nor death changes it.

Arwen & Aragorn didn't. Aragorn was merely a boy upon their first meeting. Twas only 29 years later that Aragorn conquered Arwen's heart.

Tuor & Idril didn't either. This most probably took some time, only after Tuor's Edain traits had been grinded off and the lad had turned into a real de facto Noldo.

Beren & Lúthien didn't either. The first time Lúthien just ran away, just leaving the hapless fly into her web for another season.

Besides, various romances didn't end well - Huor & Rían, Hurin & Morwen, Turin & Níniel, Finduilas's love for Turin, Aegnor & Andreth, so on and such like.

At any rate, why does it always have to be love on first sight? Why can it not take time to blossom instead?

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With Eowyn since a child she had a certain thought about life and the sort of person she wanted to be with, she had definite feelings about what she wished to accomplish with her life.Whether in war or peace she would have those seeds that would never change.

That is not definite. It is speculation. I for me think as a kid she never even thought about romance and all that; instead I think she was a girl wanting to play with the boys, so to speak. But we have to go by what's written in the books, from which becomes clear that Éowyn did not love Aragorn righteously, unlike with Faramir :
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Then Éomer was silent, and looked on his sister, as if pondering anew all the days of their past life together. But Aragorn said: 'I saw also what you saw, Éomer. Few other griefs amid the ill chances of this world have more bitterness and shame for a man's heart than to behold the love of a lady so fair and brave that cannot be returned Sorrow and pity have followed me ever since I left her desperate in Dunharrow and rode to the Paths of the Dead; and no fear upon that way was so present as the fear for what might befall her. And yet, Éomer, I say to you that she loves you more truly than me; for you she loves and knows; but in me she loves only a shadow and a thought: a hope of glory and great deeds, and lands far from the fields of Rohan.
(from chapter Houses of Healing, ROTK)

Faramir says the same :
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Then Faramir came and sought her, and once more they stood on the walls together; and he said to her: 'Éowyn, why do you tarry here, and do not go to the rejoicing in Cormallen beyond Cair Andros, where your brother awaits you?'
And she said: 'Do you not know?'
But he answered: 'Two reasons there may be, but which is true, I do not know.'
And she said: 'I do not wish to play at riddles. Speak plainer!'
'Then if you will have it so, lady,' he said: 'you do not go, because only your brother called for you, and to look on the Lord Aragorn, Elendil's heir, in his triumph would now bring you no joy. Or because I do not go, and you desire still to be near me. And maybe for both these reasons, and you yourself cannot choose between them. Éowyn, do you not love me, or will you not?'
'I wished to be loved by another,' she answered. 'But I desire no man's pity.'
'That I know,' he said. 'You desired to have the love of the Lord Aragorn. Because he was high and puissant, and you wished to have renown and glory and to be lifted far above the mean things that crawl on the earth. And as a great captain may to a young soldier he seemed to you admirable. For so he is, a lord among men, the greatest that now is. But when he gave you only understanding and pity, then you desired to have nothing, unless a brave death in battle. Look at me, Éowyn!'
And Éowyn looked at Faramir long and steadily; and Faramir said: 'Do not scorn pity that is the gift of a gentle heart, Éowyn! But I do not offer you my pity. For you are a lady high and valiant and have yourself won renown that shall not be forgotten; and you are a lady beautiful, I deem, beyond even the words of the Elven-tongue to tell. And I love you. Once I pitied your sorrow. But now, were you sorrowless, without fear or any lack, were you the blissful Queen of Gondor, still I would love you. Éowyn, do you not love me?'
Then the heart of Éowyn changed, or else at last she understood it. And suddenly her winter passed, and the sun shone on her.
I stand in Minas Anor, the Tower of the Sun, she said; and behold the Shadow has departed! I will be a shieldmaiden no longer, nor vie with the great Riders, nor take joy only in the songs of slaying. I will be a healer, and love all things that grow and are not barren.' And again she looked at Faramir. 'No longer do I desire to be a queen,' she said.

Then Faramir laughed merrily. 'That is well,' he said; 'for I am not a king. Yet I will wed with the White Lady of Rohan, if it be her will. And if she will, then let us cross the River and in happier days let us dwell in fair Ithilien and there make a garden. All things will grow with joy there, if the White Lady comes.'
(from chapter the Steward and the King, ROTK)

So, there was never any love involved between Éowyn and Aragorn, it was just a desire for glory.

Faramir, though, she had come to know through their various meetings and conversations in the Gardens of the Houses of Healing; when she started to feel for him, she was confused because she could not discern these two very different emotions she felt for two great men, but Faramir made her understand what she truly felt, hence her heart changed.
She loved him! In Love Smilie
She loved him not! Very Sad Smilie
She loved him! In Love Smilie
She loved him not! Very Sad Smilie
She loved him! In Love Smilie
She loved him not! Very Sad Smilie
She loved him! In Love Smilie
She loved him not! Very Sad Smilie
And now after Virumor's last post: Thumbs Up Smilie
She loved him!!! I Love You Smilie
Because this posy only had nine petals.
Yes, if by 'him', you mean Faramir... Elf Sticking Tounge Out Smilie
Just because her heart 'changed' whatever that meant or she understood it does not mean she suddenly fell madly in love with our dear Faramir, does it?
In the Letters of Tolkien book he , JRR says a strange thing or two about t his:
pg 323:
Eowyn: It isw possible to love more than one person of the other sex at the same time,but in a different mode and intensity. I do not think that Eowyn's feelings for Aragorn really changed much; and when he was revealed as so lofty a figure, in descent and office, she was able to go on loving and admiring him.....
then JRR goes on to talk about Faramir:
He was daunted by his father; not only in the ordinary way of a family with a stern proud father of great force of character, but as a Numenorean befoe the chief of the one surviving Numenorean state. He was motherless and sisterless and had a bossy brother. He had been accustomed to giving way and not giving his own opinions air, while retaining a pwerr of command among men......I think he understood Eowyn well. Then he goes on to say that the speed of their suddenly ripening relationship was appropriate, it not being a courtly love with pretences.So they did have a love for each other, but at the same time JRR says HER feelings toward Aragorn did not change in the essential. So , she loved them both, right? That to me then is not complete love,but that is just me.
Are you saying that a teen girl who looooves Orlando Bloom can't also truly love her boyfriend? She admired and respected Aragorn and saw he was a great man, and she still did afterwards, even if he didn't save her as she had hoped. She loves her king and she loves her husband.
Well, I am sure King Elessar used up his droit de seigneur before Éowyn could marry Faramir, so at least then both the Lady's desires would have been fulfilled, eh?

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It isw possible to love more than one person of the other sex at the same time,but in a different mode and intensity

Note that JRRT wrote 'different mode and intensity'. She loved Aragorn as her King, and maybe as a friend, there is no romantic love involved -nor there ever was.
What a tough crowd Smile Smilie (totally loveable though)
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HI EVERYONE.I REALY THINK THAT EOWYN WAS MAKING A FOOL OUT OF FARAMIR.SHE NEVER LOVED HIM.SHE JUST WANTED TO GET IN ARAGORN'S NERVES.WHAT DO YOU THINK?

I think everyone is in-titled to their own opinion but I also believe (but not always lead by example) that if you make an argument you should most definitely give the proof and reasoning to why you believe in your controversy.
Ah, but Túrin Turambar, sometimes it's fun to merely put up a strawman just to see how everyone else goes about knocking it down.
Or in this case, a straw-woman.

Very apt, considering how the Dunlendings called the Rohirrim straw-heads.
Haha. We've all thrown in our punches and kicks, and those kinder in nature have also given to defending our poor straw-woman. But yes, I do agree with Turin that not all of the punches were deserved. I think that if we were to start bashing another character, perhaps Turin himself, we would get better results (that is, when everyone stops mourning for his fate).

But I do think that we've already gone through the Eowyn Doesn't Really Love Faramir question before, haven't we? I am so glad that someone quoted those two passages from the LOTR, because they seem to be quite explicit in stating that Eowyn did not love Aragorn truly, and therefore, was not just "settling" for Faramir when she saw that she couldn't attain Aragorn.
Well, truth be told, Faramir did not really have any other choice but to say what he said, now did he? Otherwise the melancholic belle dame sans merci would've thrown herself from the walls in despair.
I do not see Eowyn as a heartless seductress. And she'd never throw herself off a building. She's too afriad that her white dress might get stained.
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I do not see Eowyn as a heartless seductress.

Of course not. She was not romantically interested in men before her heart changed, she was only interested in the honour & glory (a more modern equivalent would be money & clothes) they could lead her to.
hi everyone,
I must admit that I have not made clear what I meant at the first post.What I wanted to say was misunderstood because I've used the wong words, so my initial purpose was to say that find it very hard to believe how someone as strong as Eowyn gave up to what she wanted for a man diffrent from aragorn.As you said this might have been just enthousiasm if not love,but I believe that that eowyn's devotion to Faramir was not complete.I think there was always a part of her heart being fond of aragorn even if she became an excelent mother and wife.Thank you for sharing your kwnolege with me!! Smile Smilie
Ninerl Big Smile Smilie
I feel Eowyn lusted for what Aragorn was, a Kingly man who could take her away from the shadows she lived in, and loved in Faramir what he was, a kind gentle noble soul and comforting friend, but she was not 'in love' with either because she was et to be fully in love with herself, but I think overtime she will fall in love with Faramir, once she fully comes to ove herself.
OH that is Brilliant.
And on that note this thread should pass away into gentle obscurity .
It would've been more dramatic if Éowyn had plunged a dagger into Aragorn's heart upon being scorned her in front of the gates of Dunharrow, and then leave the scene in a chariot pulled by winged dragons, Medea-style.

"If I cannot have you, no one can!"

I wonder what wisecrack Gimli would've come up with after that! Maybe he would've merely belched in sudden uncharacteristic inability to concoct an embarassing remark.
Vir................................I think you need to , er ,talk to someone dear.
You are starting to frighten me.
Not at all, tis after all a typical female reaction I've described in my previous post. This is something that the Old Greek writers already understood, hence the Medea reference.

Éowyn could've also decapitated Aragorn with an axe, but that would've been Clytemnestra.

What would really have been interesting, is that the farewell cup offered to Aragorn at the gates of Dunharrow would've changed him into a hog. That would've been Circe.

Hell hath no fury as a woman scorned.

Just wanted to say, Virumor is officially my hero. The last ideas were hilarious. Add to that the fact that someone on here actually knows Greek mythology as well as LOTR back stories. Wow. Congrats.

P.S. You're arguments were pretty much flawless. Very nice.

Wow, I forgot how emotional and fiery this thread was, is.

I think Vir is many of our heroes, he is a walking encyclopedia peppered with er  all sorts of acidic and hilarious responses.

I think the thing that amused me most was his stating we did not need another Eowyn thread, and then being one of the largest contributors to this new one. Way to go Vir. Smile Smilie

It seems that previously I had dismissed Éowyn's feelings for Aragorn as a mere infatuation, yet ironically the same happened with the young Aragorn when he saw Arwen Undómiel frolicking in the woods outside Rivendell.

Aragorn was 64 years Éowyn's senior, yet Arwen was more than 200 years Aragorn's senior. The difference between the two romances is that only Aragorn was allowed to consider his feelings for several years before he met Arwen again. Éowyn had no such opportunity... but otherwise she might have eventually considered the truth of her feelings.

I myself never once considered this point, but I believe that is absolutely true Vir. I will think on that.

Arwen was more than 200 years Aragorn's senior. 

A lot more. She was 2690 years old when they first met. Aragorn was 20.

If a hottie like Arwen never found someone in all those years and eventually had to settle for a mortal sapling, it's no wonder the Elves were outbred and dying out.

"Nice one, Vir!" I have always been somehow stunned by your remarks. Anyway, considering the longness of an elven life (very much until the end of the World), Arwen was young and had no real need to settle. And then she fell in love with Aragorn and things happened as they did.

Another look to Eowyn-Faramir thing: I do not believe what Eowyn felt for Aragorn was love. I see it more like for first time in her life she found someone actually worthy of reapecting beyond her own bloodline. So she left herself be a true female in the presence of a true man. I wish I could have seen her face when she learned about his true age! And so I believe her love for Faramir was in fact the REAL ONE, much more understood and not one brought by circumstances. Let us face it: being niece of the king of Rohan, she was of royal blood, so she couldn't have had much of experience with men and so she was an Iron Maiden on the outside, yet a fearsome mess from the inside, being unable to perform as a woman of certain age (and needs). Most girls/women her age have already being married and produced children (if you follow my attempt to put the problem more physically). It is a proven fact- in times of war or plague, people just seem to make out much more, as if they are trying to keep life above death by all means.

When Eowyn went in Gondor things became clearer. There were more options, so to speak. And she went for an option satisfying her obligations, status and need. I think she appreciated Faramir in all means and loved him truly.

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Off-topic: Let us face it- it is not the man who seduces the woman, but quite the other way around. So a woman unable to perform (to inspire) desire into man's heart because she was bound by certain obligations- it is truly miracle she did not went mad by the time she lived with her uncle.

P.S.: Ladies, please be merciful upon me. Sometimes a man is as simple as only a man can be. And by God's will I am a man, so nothing "mannish" is beyond me. Beg you all pardon. No intentional offense in this post of mine.

Anyway, considering the longness of an elven life (very much until the end of the World), Arwen was young and had no real need to settle.

In the Elvish reckoning noted in the Appendices, even by the time she married Aragorn Arwen was not yet even 20 yéni old.

 

I recall reading that Elves chose their partners already at a very young age.

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Off-topic: Let us face it- it is not the man who seduces the woman, but quite the other way around.

It has traditionally always been the role of the man to court or woo the woman in a relationship. Not only in human relationships, but in the entire animal kingdom.

Male peacocks don't look flashy for nothing.

Oh, yea! We all do our best to attract a female, yet it is the female's behaviour (and sometimes they don't even realize it) to get us "mad" in a way.

In my country we say: The man is the Head, the woman is the neck. The head will always look on the direction to which the neck is turned. (adage)