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Hi everyone!Yesterday I saw The Two Towers (the film) and got confused about Haldir.Did he die at Helm's Deep or in an other way?I do not know much about him and his life and origin and I would like some help.Thanks a lot!
He died at Helm's Deep, in Aragorn arms if I'm not mistaken. So sadly, their romance ended rather abruptly.
oh,you surprise me Virumor!what do you mean by saying that their romance ended sadly?I bet Arwouen would get mad if she knew it!
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I bet Argouen would get mad if she knew it!

Well, don't tell her then! :-X
Ok I won't tell her.Besides i do not want her to get hurt(poor girl) i also do not want to became an ugly frog or something like that when she gets furious!
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i also do not want to became an ugly frog or something like that when she gets furious!

Do not worry. It's pretty, sweet Arwen, not Polgara the Sorceress.
I can't believe Vir, of all people, passed up the opportunity to note/scream Haldir wasn't at Helms Deep in the Trilogy. So, no, he didn't die there. IIRC, in the books Aragorn received the banner of the House of Earendil from his wives grandmother, Galadriel, and, as Wiki correctly points out in the final sentence of its entry on her, any Elven warriors would have been unlikely to leave the defense of Lothlorien, as it was essentially under siege much as Minas Tirith would later be, but for far longer.
My bad, I thought this thread was located in The Two Towers section.

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IIRC, in the books Aragorn received the banner of the House of Earendil from his wives grandmother, Galadriel, and, as Wiki correctly points out in the final sentence of its entry on her

The banner he received from Halbarad, and was made for him by his betrothed. I think you're confusing it with the Elessar.
The Elessar, the Elfstone of the house of Elendil, which was 'a great stone of a clear green, set in a silver brooch that was wrought in the likeness of an eagle with outspread wings' - FotR, Bk. 2, Ch. 8.
Indeed, I somehow conflated the two and had him receiving both at the same time, but when you mentioned Halbarad, Vir, it all fell into place. I was always rather put out by Halbarads death, so maybe it's just a case of Jackson conflating him and Haldir. That kind of thing is unavoidable in film adaptations, and can be forgiven; it's the Elves at Helms Deep and Arwens "elf magic" at Bruinen that has me chewing iron and spitting out nails.
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it's the Elves at Helms Deep and Arwens "elf magic" at Bruinen that has me chewing iron and spitting out nails.

That wasn't Arwen at Helm's Deep... it was Polgara the Sorceress/Lanfear popping in from the Belgariad/WOT, who wanted an adventure along the way.

As for me, I'm more sceptical about the whole Warg-riding shtick, and Éowyn's presence at Helm's Deep - you think she wouldn't have dressed up and gone off to the battle? PJ does.

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I was always rather put out by Halbarads death, so maybe it's just a case of Jackson conflating him and Haldir.

Well, even if this is the case, the Grey Company doesn't have a place at the Battle of Helm's Deep too.
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Well, even if this is the case, the Grey Company doesn't have a place at the Battle of Helm's Deep too.
Even though that is true, I still get choked up when they arrive there in PJ's movie; and even though I disliked the movie Haldir's arrogance, I still tear-up—that's blubber rather than rend PJ's script—when he fell. Elf With a Big Grin Smilie
I didn't even care that Haldir wasn't at Helm's Deep in the book when I watched the movie. I was too caught in how touching it was for Lothlorien to aid Rohan in the times of need. Though I have to express regret at not seeing Eomer draw swords with Aragorn there, I am not displeased with how it turned out. The "toss me" part from Gimli was quite amusing, and I admit I enjoyed the sight of Legolas sailing down the steps.

But to answer your question, Ninerl, all you have to do is type Haldir into Google, and there will be many fansites of Craig Parker more than willing to explain to you the character of Haldir.
I also really enjoyed PJ's version of the Elves coming to help out at Helm's Deep, though I am normally very much against any tinkering with the original story.

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I disliked the movie Haldir's arrogance


Everything about him just seemed wrong to me, he didn't even look right for the part... still I forgot all that during his death scene. It was so sad to see all those elves dying; the remnants of a dwindling race that had lived so long through so many battles, tragically coming to an end (where they shouldn't even have been) when their departure from Middle Earth to unending life in Valinor was not so far away.
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It was so sad to see all those elves dying; the remnants of a dwindling race that had lived so long through so many battles, tragically coming to an end (where they shouldn't even have been) when their departure from Middle Earth to unending life in Valinor was not so far away.

Well, look at it this way : by dying, their spirits passed to the Halls of Mandos in Valinor, from where they could eventually return to the land of the living if they'd want to. Elves' spirits are bound to Arda and can never leave it, so they can never truly die.

The Uruk-hai just precipitated their voyage to Valinor. They should be thanked, instead of frowned upon for massacring some little Elves.
so Valinor was some kind of paradise despite the way the elves dyed.Their spirits might be rested but Idon't think the orcs should be thanked!Thanks a lot for the info!
Yeah, Halbarad fell on the Pelennor, IIRC, which made it that much sadder, after having come through so many scrapes in his life to perish in the last battle but one. I've always thought of him as kind of like Aragorns good friend and Field First Sergeant. I don't really have a problem with Warg riders at Helms Deep, but the bit where one hurls Aragorn over a cliff and he has that stupid dream sequence was both non-canonical and unnecessary. Aragorn's not that easy to topple.

Edit: good guess.
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Aragorn's not that easy to topple.

So then I reckon you didn't like that scene where he was squirming under an Olog-Hai's foot in ROTK?
since the movies don't ever make any reference to Lorién being under seige (and the books barely footnote it), it's hardly surprising to see Haldir commanding Lorien's soldiers, and appearing at Helm's Deep, in the movie version. I think it was -- cinematically speaking -- a very good script choice. If you're going to mess with the story (as all movies inevitably do), this was one of the better choices for change. It actually serves a purpose which the siege of Lorien also serves in the book: we see that elves are fighting with as much or more valor and courage -- just as hard -- against the bad guys taking over ME as everyone else. Of course getting Gimli's kinfolk into the picture would only be "fair" -- since in the book there was a reference to them fighting as well in their own lands -- but oh well. If you gotta pick dwarf or elf soldiers, well -- pick the ones who can see over the ramparts. Wink Smilie
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they could eventually return to the land of the living if they'd want to

I thought that Luthien was the only elf to return to Middle Earth from the Halls of Mandos, because she sang a really heart-wrenchingly sad song and he felt sorry for her and Beren.

I could be wrong?? Elf Confused Smilie
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I thought that Luthien was the only elf to return to Middle Earth from the Halls of Mandos, because she sang a really heart-wrenchingly sad song and he felt sorry for her and Beren.

That is true. Mandos is such a wimp..
Naw, he's a pushover to a pretty face with soothing song.
i thought i read something bout some random elf who killed a balrog coming back?
idk
i thought they had to wait a certain mount of time, tinuvel had to go quick cuz her man lover would die??
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i thought i read something bout some random elf who killed a balrog coming back?

Yeh, that's Xenarwen.
Some elves are reincarnated. I believe Luthien Tinuviel was the only one who came back to ME who did it WITHOUT being reincarnated -- that is, without being born to another set of parents in ME, growing up, and re-discovering his or her "old" life.

If I remember correctly, Tolkien "discovered" that elves reincarnate when he named Glorfindel??? and then later found out that another elf who had been killed in battle was also named Glorfindel. He couldn't see elves naming their kids after other elves, when everyone was so long-lived and everyone had probably met and knew and remembered each other (it would create mass confusion, or it was not considered right, or something). therefore, he discovered that elves who die are sometimes (though not always) reincarnated. Apparently they grow up oblivious to their former lives during childhood, and at some point after becoming adult elves, they are able to remember their former lives, at which point they can choose to go by their former names (or perhaps they now have hyphenated names, who knows....). Essentially they are then elves endowed with two childhoods and two sets of parents and two bodies, but they are the same spirit, (and can be recognized by those still living who knew them in their former lives?)

Luthien was special because she not only didn't reincarnate, it was more like she was raised from the dead -- but also she was given the gift of the doom of men in this second life.

Luthien may be the only elf who "died indeed" -- but Arwen's choice to identify with her mortal genes and stay with Aragorn when her father left middle earth certainly caused much grief for her father, and probably for her brothers, and -- I can't help but think for her mother, waiting for her in the West, perhaps! and for her grandmother and other elves she must have known and loved in her lifetime.
Yes, Elrose was remembering Glorfindel's apparent reincarnation as Elanorraine pointed out.
in the book does Elrond get all pissy that Arwen is becoming mortal? i forget but if he did then did he also get mad when his brother chose mortality?
The Luthien quote, along with one I seem to recall about Arwens final fate being sundered from her husbands, is why I've always thought that Arwen died of grief after Aragorns death, rather than assuming the Gift of Men. But that's me.
bout Arwens death, i remeber something bout other elves stayin in middle earth and "fadding" or something?
and i thought in the book she dies right after aragorn dies so mayb it is grief??
Aragorn died in 120 F.A. Shortly after that Arwen left Minas Tirith to live alone in Lothlorien, where she laid herself down on the hill of Cerin Amroth and died in 121 F.A.

Arwen's wasn't an Elf anymore at that point, she had made the choice of Lúthien and hence had become as a mortal woman.
I remember reading that the children of Elrond halfelven were given a sort of "temporary" elvish life so long as their father remained in Middle Earth. (I always wondered why there were references to the elvish light in the faces of the children of Elrond, and how it was "not to be wondered at in the children of Elrond" -- thus implying that some people DID wonder why his kids were allowed to be elvish). Then, when Elrond left, if they chose to go with him, their "temporary" elvish fate became permanent, as his was. But if they chose to remain behind, they would then be permanently settled with the doom of men (mortality), albeit a mortality with long life like the dunedain were given.

I think Elrond would have been sad at his brother's choice, perhaps that's why he was gracious enough to care for his descendants when they needed it. I think -- after living as an elf for so long, and knowing so many of his relatives on his brother's side die off, how could he help but wish for his children whom he loved to stay with him? He was not tired of life, and he knew his daughter well enough to know that she would not be ready to give it up as soon as Aragorn would be ready. His grief over parting with Arwen would be greater in his knowledge that she would be happy for a time, but would then herself have to deal with her husband's death!
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His grief over parting with Arwen would be greater in his knowledge that she would be happy for a time, but would then herself have to deal with her husband's death!

Welcome to mortal life. Arwen was granted 120 years with her mortal husband, that's way more than any other Atani couple got at the end of the Third Age.
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If I remember correctly, Tolkien "discovered" that elves reincarnate when he named Glorfindel??? and then later found out that another elf who had been killed in battle was also named Glorfindel. He couldn't see elves naming their kids after other elves, when everyone was so long-lived and everyone had probably met and knew and remembered each other (it would create mass confusion, or it was not considered right, or something). therefore, he discovered that elves who die are sometimes (though not always) reincarnated. Apparently they grow up oblivious to their former lives during childhood, and at some point after becoming adult elves, they are able to remember their former lives, at which point they can choose to go by their former names (or perhaps they now have hyphenated names, who knows....). Essentially they are then elves endowed with two childhoods and two sets of parents and two bodies, but they are the same spirit, (and can be recognized by those still living who knew them in their former lives?)


This is the first time I've ever heard of elves reincarnating! I know of there being two elves named Glorfindel, but I was under the impression that it was because Tolkien often changed and developed his stories as he went along (he wrote some things that he ultimately did not intend to publish); he may have had it in mind to scrap the earlier Glorfindel, but liked the name and so used it in LotR. I don't think there's any real evidence to suggest that they're the same person/elf. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
For discussions about Glorfindel and his alleged reincarnation see A question about Glorfindel and Glorfindel and Lindir. There are other newer threads about this subject that you can find if you use our search function on the right side of the above menu.

So please continue your discussion in one of those if you have any further comments about Glorfindel.

Meanwhile, this thread should bu used for discussing Haldir. Thanks Happy Elf Smilie
I saw the Fellowship and Two Towers before I was given the books at Christmas. I wept and wept over Haldir and then when I read the book and found out he never died and was just fine, (did he not have a twin brother) I was a little ticked. Or maybe embarrassed I cannot remember.Smile Smilie
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I wept and wept over Haldir and then when I read the book and found out he never died and was just fine

Well, we don't really know that. He might still have been slain during the siege of Lóthlorien, or during the attack of the Galadhrim on Dol Guldur after Sauron's downfall.
He might have yes, but there isn't really of any record of his death, so I like to just assume that he lived. Makes everyone so happy to know our precious Haldir lives......... *lets a tear fall*