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Thread: Celebrían

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Grondmaster began this thread with the following post.

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So in my comment on the latest poll, I showed my ignorance about Celebrían, wife of Elrond and mother of Arwen and the twins. I had always arsumed her death was the major cause of the animosity of the Galadrim against the Dwarves of Moria. The reply to that comment says that I have been barking up the wrong mallorn.

Now I can only find reference to her on one page of FOTR and also in the genealogical tables of The Silmarillion. What is her story and where can it be found?


Valedhelgwath replied

Most the details of Celebrian that I have found are in FotR and RotK.

Born in the First Age, only daughter of Galadriel and Celeborn.
Married Elrond in TA 100. Mother of Arwen and the Twins.
TA 2509 her travelling party was ambushed and captured by orcs while travelling from Rivendell to Lorien. Although she was soon rescued by her sons, she had been tortured, and though Elrond managed to heal her of her poisoned wounds, she became weary of Middle Earth and within a year left for the Undying Lands.

You may also find some additional information in "The People's of Middle Earth", the History of Middle Earth, vol 12, by Christopher Tolkien. Some of the stories like "The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen" are expanded on.

In one very early version of Celebrian's story, she is killed by the orcs, but Tolkiens seems to have changed his mind about that fairly quickly. All of the later versions say that Celebrian sailed over sea because of her "wounding" and that after the WOTR, Elrond was able to follow her.

Rather poignant, is it not? According to the Tale of Years, Celebrian left ME in the year 2510. Elrond left in 3021. That is 511 years they were separated. A long time, even for an elf! I think that roughly equates to 3 and a half years in our terms..(not unlike Tolkien's separation from Edith?)

I often wondered how Elrond would fare, telling his wife that their daughter would not be joining them, and that their sons were not comming until later? Another heart-rending duty for an already careworn Elf-lord.
Thanks people. Smile Smilie

So what harm did the Dwarves initial awakening of the Balrog in Moria cause the Galadrim way back when, other that it was the mortal enemy of Elves? Did it leave Moria or just draw orcs to it, who then subsequently raided the borders of Loth-lorien?

Should this question be moved to a FOTR thread?
Allyssa, how did you figure three and a half years? I'm just curious. About the dwarves...I really don't know all that much about them. I DO know that the smiths of Eregion were friends with the dwarves for a long time (smith to smith I suppose) and when the Balrog came, well, my knowlage of the dwarves ends there. But you could be right--like Sauron summoned all evil to him for his war, so too could the Balrog have summoned the orgs and wargs of the surrounding area to hound at the elves. BTW, what time was that, do you know? What year? I'd like to look up some more information about it.
Elf Years: Okay, I realise this is a contentious issue, but I am using the forumla that 120 human years = 1 elf year. But I could be very wrong on that one. Some say 144 human years = 1 elf year.

I am not sure where I got that info. Somewhere in the Appendix for TLOTRs. Does anyone have a copy of Morgoth's Ring?
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So what harm did the Dwarves initial awakening of the Balrog in Moria cause the Galadrim way back when, other that it was the mortal enemy of Elves? Did it leave Moria or just draw orcs to it, who then subsequently raided the borders of Loth-lorien?
One of the effects the Balrog had on the Galadrim was that they lost their king, Amroth. Although he was Sindarin he was deeply in love with a Silven Elf, Nimrodel, who lived alone in the woods. When the Balrog awoke she was so afraid she wished to take ship and go to the West. Because Amroth loved her so much, he forsook his people and went with her. Tragically, they became separated as they crossed the White Mountains and Amroth came to Lond Ernil (later Dol Amroth) alone. Only one ship remained, and while waiting on board for Nimrodel's arrival, one night the ship broke its moorings during a storm and was washed out to sea. Crying Nimrodel's name, Amroth dived into the water and attempted to swim back to shore. Neither Amroth or Nimrodel were ever seen again.
I'm not sure whether the Balrog itself came to the woods, or whether it was the army of orcs that scared Nimrodel away, but it must have exerted quite a presence to have this effect. The elven marchwardens surely would have been able to take care of mere orcs.
Yes, I have a copy. Hold on, i remember reading something about elves and their ages....

ok, here it is!

QUOTE:

The Eldar grew in bodily form slower than Men, but in mind more swiftly. They learned to speak before then were one year old, and in the same time they learned to walk and to dance, for their wills came soon to the mastery of their bodies. Nonetheless there was a less difference between teh two Kindneds, Elves and Men, in early youth; and a man who watched elf-children play might well have believed that they were the children of Men, of some fair and happy people. For in their early days elf-children delighted still in the world about them, and the burden of memory was still light upon them.

The same watcher might indeed have wondered at the small limbs and stature of these children, judging their age by their skill in words and grace in motion. For at the end of the third year mortal children began to outstrip the Elves, hastening on to a full stature while the Elves lingered in the first spring of childhood. Children of Men might reach their full height [my inserpt--18 to 22, maybe?] while Eldar of the same age were still in body like to mortals of no more than seven years. Not until the fiftieth year did the Eldar attain the stature and shape in which their lives would afterwards endure, and for some a hundred years would pass before they were full grown.




[Edited on 2/8/2002 by LadyoftheRings]
Thank you very much, Ladyoftherings! Big Smile Smilie

Does Morgoth's Ring give any sort of translation of time? ie: how long is an elf-year?
Sure!

I've never heard an "elf-year" being specifically mentioned. However, I have read that, oh where is that book? Just a sec...

here it is!
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...But at whatever age they married, their cihldren were born within a short space of years after their wedding. (and then there is a footnote that says, "Short as the Eldar reckoned time. In mortal count there was often a long interval between the weding and the first child-brith and even longer between child and child. ENDQUOTE.

So, if we go by when Elrond married and had elflings, oh dang. I can't find my book anywhere. OK, who had a copy of the Lord of the Rings Appendixes? Look up the timeline and find the beginning of the Third Age. On average I think it was about 140 years between when they married and when Elladan and Elrohir were born. So, if that's a "short" time (let's say two years on an elf-scale, making division easier) then taking a wild guess, could an elf-year equel seventy human years? They seem to count the years more as the passing of seasons which some elf said passes by extremely quickly for them.

Quote:
Appendix B, TheTale of Years
The Third Age

...
109 Elrond weds Celebrian, daughter of Celeborn
130 Birth of Elladan and Elrohir, sons of Elrond
241 Birth of Arwen Undomiel.
...


Okay, that makes it 21 years before the first children were born. I am not sure if this is usual or if Elrond and Celebrian were very eager for a family. Arwen is born just over a century later. That is longer than customary, isnt it? Maybe the twins were such a handful, that they weren't in too much of a hurry the second time around. I can sympathise with that! Wink Smilie

Elrond was about 3,400 years old at the time. (Does anyone know in what year Celebrian was born?) That is also fairly old for a first time elf-father, isn't it? I read somewhere that Elves usually marry in early adulthood. Too busy fighting wars, I suppose, or could it be a "half-elf" issue?
Ok, I was waaaay off on the scale but oh well. According to Morgoth's Ring elves marry soon after they become adults (e.g., 50-100 years) and that they marry, if not for love, then upon willingness from either side. Also that elves sometimes choose their mates as children, especially in times of peace, and that elves never have children in times of war. (too much chance that the mother and father could be separated, because apparently the first few years of an elf's life is so important that the parents never leave the child to go on vacations or anything). It also says that the normal thing for an elf to do was get married, unless they had strange fates ahead of them (like Elrond). So that could explain why he took so long getting around to being married. Plus, this is speculation but speculation is fun with lord of the rings Wink Smilie since Elrond was a lore-master and a healer, he probably was pretty interrested in studying for a logn time, rather than marrage. You know. Grad School and Medical School is even longer for elves than for humans. Tongue Smilie
You don't think maybe Celeborn dissapproved? He (Cel.) was kind of "highly strung", as I once heard someone put it.

I believe that Elrond actually fell in love with Celebrian some time late in the second age, and kept his feelings to himself for some time. Has a very romantic feel to it, does it not? I wonder if Celebrian even knew he was alive? I would bet that Galadriel was aware of the situation, not matter how hard Elrond tried to hide it. There simply has to be a really mushy love story in there somewhere! Big Laugh Smilie Wink Smilie
That's another one for you to pen, Allyssa. I'm no good at the mushy ones. I have to have a bit of blood 'n' gore.
I know a wonderful romance story all about Elrond and Celebrian. Jumping Flame Smilie I know that's a wierd smily but it looks so cute! It looks like an M&M in a racecar! Ok, this is totally off subject. Anyway, if you go to www.fanfiction.net and look up either the postAuthorID "Nemis" and go to her story "The Story of Elrond and Celebrian" (or is it "The Story of Celebrian and Elrond"? I can't remember) or look up me (LadyoftheRings--there is a LadyOfTheRings and that's not me) Go to my favorite stories and I have it there. It's really good. worth the read.
I would guess the closeness of the Dwarves of Moria to the smiths of Eregion was derived from the closeness of Curufin (father of Celebrimbor) to the Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost.

Yeah, I always do that; Curufinwe was, of course, Feanors name from his mother. I think it's the whole "Celebrimbor, son of Curufin, son of Curufinwe" thing that has me making Celebrimbor sing "I'm My Own Grampa." I realized it almost immediately, but couldn't remember where the post was, so expected what I got. I'd kill (well, maim) for an easier way to get around this site. Note: that's not "this site sucks!" it's more "this site is cool, and so are it's members, but it's hard to explore all the nooks and crannies like I want to as things stand."
Not to mention why Galadriel liked Dwarves so much........

Btw, Curufin is Curufinwë's son.
perhaps you meant Celebrimbor?
Hello! I am Celebrian. Well, Celebrian Nenharma, that is... Personally, Celebrian is one of my favorite Tolkien characters. Her marriage to Elrond was just dreamy and magical... anyway, that didn't apply to like, any of the last few posts, but I just thought I would share that...
So, does it actually ever say anywhere how old Celebrían is? I'm just curious for comparing ages and such, nothing too incredibly important. To quote Marvin "I ask merely for information."
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So, does it actually ever say anywhere how old Celebrían is? I'm just curious for comparing ages and such, nothing too incredibly important.

Somewhere in the second age. A time and place is mentioned nowhere.

From UT :

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Celeborn and Galadriel came to be regarded as Lord and Lady of the Eldar in Eriador, including the wandering companies of Nandorin origin who had never passed west over Ered Lindon and come down into Ossiriand [see The Silmarillion p.94.] During their sojourn near Nenuial was born, at some time between the years 350 and 400, their son Amroth. [The time and place of Celebrian's birth, whether here or later in Eregion, or even later in Lórien, is not made definite.]

Yeah, and that's why I asked. No where else have I seen it, though long have I searched. And I didn't even know they had other children...well, you learn something new everyday! ^_^ Like which setting to set the toaster at so that your waffles are nice and crisp but not burnt! Yay ego waffles! Wiggle Smilie
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And I didn't even know they had other children...

In one version Amroth is mentioned as their son, yes. But there are other versions in which he's not. See UT.