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Okay, here are some of my thoughts concerning the reproduction of dwarves. Apparently dwarve women are quite eccentric and hard to convince that they are needed to keep this race alive. Plus not many female dwarves are born. So, after seeing the beautiful dwarve women photos from WETA, I noticed one thing in particular: they assemble hobbit lasses! Apart from the beards they look very much familiar to my eye and it made me wonder, if dwarf men would be falling for hobbit lasses as well? And if so, if they could have children? Because that might just be the solution to that problem. And honestly, looking at handsome dwarves such as Thorin, Kili and Fili, I doubt hobbit lasses would have a problem with falling for them Angel Smilie I just wonder what dwarf children might look like and I wonder even more what hobbit-dwarflings would look like (isn't that a cute name for them? hehehe)? So, what do you peeps think? Too weird or just the thing?

Hi Lilia, you bring up a good point but I think you are mixing some film details in, as Tolkien's Dwarf women cannot be distinguished (by other peoples) from Dwarf men, and so I doubt they resemble Hobbit women.

'For the Naugrim have beards from the beginning of their lives, male and female alike; nor indeed can their womankind be discerned by those of other race, be it in feature or in gait or in voice, nor in any wise save this: that they go not to war, and seldom save at direst need issue from their deep bowers and halls.'

Later Quenta Silmarillion, The War of the Jewels

'They are in voice and appearance, and in garb if they must go on a journey, so like to the dwarf-men that the eyes and ears of other peoples cannot tell them apart.'

Appendix A, The Return of the King

Anyway the Dwarves must dwindle, yes; and if you haven't read Tolkien's comments about the fate of Hobbits, there is more sadness there.

Lilia does bring up a good point about interbreeding though. So I wonder, hypothetically, COULD other races in ME breed with eachother? We all know elves and men could, but what about elves and dwarves? Dwarves and men? Elves and hobbits? Balrogs and trolls? :p

Hmm, I recall the 'absurd comment' from the following, from The Hobbit.

'It was often said (in other families) that long ago, one of the Took ancestors must have taken a fairy wife. That was, of course, absurd, but still, there was something not quite hobbit-like about them, and once in a while members of the Took-clan would go and have adventures.'

Assuming fairy wife refers to an Elf, I guess Smile Smilie

We at the least know that the Ainur could and would couple with Elves. Melian the Maia and King Thingol the Elf are of course front and centre with their heroine daughter Luthien.

As Tolkien only gives us three types of Children of Illuvatar and possibly four including the Ainur, who could be counted as Eru's children, which groups would Hobbits and for that matter the Wosses be part of? Perhaps Men and Hobbits could couple and have children. Strange thought though.

Dear Galin,
 indeed I was borrowing my thoughts from seeing the dwarf women in the movie and on pictures from WETA, so yes, I as well stumbled over that little difference from their description on Tolkien's literature and Peter's movie. But it just inspired me to take the thought a little further and I ended up thinking that maybe a few of the dwarf women just might have dressed differently and styled their hair differently to differ from the male dwarfs.

 

I like the thought of how the races of Middle-earth might have morphed into what mankind is nowadays. That Middle-earth is indeed our historical past and we somehow are all the result of mix-breeding. But the question is: how could that have happened?

 

[This thought has taken forms that are almost out of proportion, as I will write my finals about this subject and my university profs are all but excited about it. But that's a whole different story, hehehehe. ]

As for Melian's body, I take it that she clothed herself, or arrayed herself in the body of an Elf, or at least a body compatible enough with Elves to allow progeny (I can't recall at the moment if Tolkien ever speaks to this specifically), but she was not a natural incarnate in any case.

I think the point was that she, as a maia, was still able to mate with one of the races of ME regardless of original form. Meaning Gandalf could do the same. Can you imagine if Gandalf was your dad? Awesome.

Since the biology is more or less the same, it could be compared to humans mating with different races; as opposed to animals mating with different species. Obviously a labrador can still mix with a schnauser, while a human can't mix with a monkey. However since all the children of ME function more or less the same, like canines, as opposed to humans/monkeys who are on completely different levels, I don't really see why it wouldn't be possible for the races of ME to interbreed.

And that of course bring back the question of the Uruk-Hai. A potential case of orcs and humans interbreeding. If orcs/humans can do it, I see no reason hobbits/dwarves couldn't either!

I think the point was that she, as a maia, was still able to mate with one of the races of ME regardless of original form.

I was just adding the distinction that Melian's case, from a physical perspective, is a bit different because Elves, Men, Hobbits, Dwarves, cannot alter their bodies of course.

Melian could have chosen to be an eagle for example, although a wedding with Thingol would have been off, if so.

And that of course bring back the question of the Uruk-Hai. A potential case of orcs and humans interbreeding.

You are correct Balrogs, as we know Saruman bred Orcs with Men in any case. That much is not in debate, but some think the result was the Half-orcs not the Uruk-hai, while others think the Uruk-hai are also the result.

Anyway that calls something to mind from Morgoth's Ring about 'sterility' in one of the orc texts. I think it was the one that looked at beasts as a possible source for orcs, but I'll have to hunt it down later for an exact quote.

Ainur, elves, and men and interbreed because they are of Eru's design, where as dwarves are the work of Aule. So maybe they dwarves can't interbreed with the others. But this can be challenge, when Eru gave life to the dwarves, he made them his children as well.

Seeing the WETA pics of dwarves doesn't match the description Gimli gave in the movie TTT. I just mentioned this cause they are both from the "movie world" compared to the  "book world"

If they did breed with men, will the offsprings have long lifespan as the dwarves or shorter like men.

Well Gimli, in the film, described Dwarf Women as little and hairy as well as, rather tongue in cheek, that Men can't tell the difference between male & female and that they think that Dwarflings "sprout out if the ground". I think he was simply repeating the commonly repeated folk lore and thoughts of Men regarding the Dwarves. I love the scene with Eowyn BTW.

I liked PJ's view of the female Dwarves. I've said it before in other posts, I just don't like the idea that female Dwarves are simply Males Dwarves who just happen to be female. Just doesn't make sense to me.

Why would Gimli, a Dwarf, find Galadriel and Arwen to be the most beautiful of Eru's children if his own species females basically looked like a Male? That would be like a Man finding a female chimpanzee atractive. Doesn't make sense.

Well let's keep things distinct here: in the film world Men can tell female Dwarves apart from male Dwarves, and if film-Gimli is repeating Mannish folklore that Men can't tell Dwarf-men and Dwarf-women apart, then that too would be only according to _the film world_.

As _in the book world_ it is true that Men can't tell Dwarf-men from Dwarf-women, and this is gleaned from a Dwarvish source, and this is why (in part) Men foolishly think there are no Dwarf-women, and so on about Dwarf children.

In other words the false Mannish folklore in the books is that there are no Dwarf-women, not that Dwarf-women look like Dwarf-men to other peoples.

Why would Gimli, a Dwarf, find Galadriel and Arwen to be the most beautiful of Eru's children if his own species females basically looked like a Male?

I would say because Gimli recognizes beauty. As far as I recall Tolkien never notes how the Dwarves felt about their females from an aesthetic standpoint. We know that Dwarves could tell Dwarf women apart from Dwarf men in any case, and that very many Dwarf-men do not marry.

What is Gimli's actual line in the films, by the way?

Edit: I found this on the web so I can't vouch for its accuracy, but I seem to recall the following:

Gimli: 'It's true you don't see many Dwarf women. And in fact, they are so alike in voice and appearance, haha that they're often mistaken for Dwarf men.'

[Éowyn smiles and looks back at Aragorn] Aragorn: 'It's the beards....'

Gilmi continues: 'And this in turn has given rise to the belief that there are no dwarf women. And that dwarves just spring out of holes in the ground. Which is of course ridiculous,..'

[Gimli's horse moves forward faster than he had expected, and ultimately he falls].

It seems to me (again if this is accurate) that Jackson is trying to follow the book here, despite his 'often mistaken' phrasing for example.

What's interesting is he says this in TTT, but then apparently in AUJ he shows these dwarf women (who I still missed).

I think it could go either way. Dwarves are obviously the red-headed step child within the races of Middle Earth. They are unique in almost every aspect, not withholding mating rituals. So, all evidence considered, to really embrace the canon it would make sense that their women did not appear much different from dwarf men. Of course logically we'd think there would be a distinction since that's how our genealogy is coded. We are forcefully attracted to those who look different from us with an emphasis on specific traits, thus it's difficult for us to imagine being attracted to someone who looks like everyone else (with obvious exceptions).

So I side with Brego on the fact it just seems....unnatural. It certainly conjures up images I'd rather not think about. And I think it would be best if there was some distinction (maybe shorter or braided beards or something). But as far as we know, there isn't. So I have to side with Tolkien on what, all things ME considered, would make the most sense. Why work so hard on making the dwarves unique from the races we can relate to if you don't include one of the most important parts of being human...reproduction.

Galin, I did say tongue in cheek, he was obviously joking around. 

My point is that I think the Dwarves deliberately kept alot of things about their culture under wraps, their language, wealth, customs and I think also their women.  They possibly don't mind that to the eyes of Men and Elves their Females look like their Males.  Actually I bet that those who saw AUJ, and who had not seen TLOTR or read Tolkien would not have even realised that there were female Dwarves visible as they were bearded and short, so perhaps its a case of if you know you know, as we do....

I don't think it's obvious that Gimli is joking around in the film --  it may be a light moment in the film but that doesn't mean he is merely repeating something that he believes is not true (with respect to his statements before Aragorn speaks of course). And he notes what is not true as well, after Aragorn remarks about the beards.

With the initial information he says 'in fact' even, and as he is a Dwarf there is no reason to disbelieve him. He echoes the same falsehood from the books.

The difference is that Jackson has Gimli say 'often mistaken' while Tolkien's female Dwarves would normally arguably always be mistaken for Dwarf-men by other peoples (unless, for example, other folk saw them in different garb within their halls for some reason).

The Dwarves were so secretive that we don't know if dwarf women were really like that. Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. So even if dwarf women look like dwarf men, Gimli could still think that Galadriel was beautiful even though she maybe considered as an old ugly hag by an orc. Either way I think the movie making the dwarf women look different from dwarf men was a good idea. People that don't know about Tolkien's writings won't get confuse by it. In the movie business, the general audience is more important than the hardcore Tolkien fans.

I think some some of the dwarf women in the movies might even have a longer beard than Kili.

Well perhaps laughing and joking generally mean joking, well to me at least Galin.

Glorfindel yes! Haha I do believe that I spotted a Dwarfette with a longer beard than Fili indeed!

Brego, if someone is telling you a story with some humorous points in it [points found humorous for some reason], and so chuckles a bit or even laughs while telling these parts, is it obvious to you that the person telling the story doesn't really believe he or she is relating the truth? 

The point is that I don't agree Gimli is obviously joking in the sense of repeating something he thinks is false -- he tells Eowyn about Dwarf-women rather, and adds that it is a false idea that there are no Dwarf-women.

I just watched this scene again on Youtube actually, and I (happily) had forgotten the ending until seeing it again: Gimli not only falling off the horse but saying 'nobody panic' and 'it was deliberate' that he fell.

You know Galin. You remind me of the character Sheldon in the T.V show called The Big Bang Theory.  You simply don't seem to grasp the subtleties, only the literal.

Im not getting into yet another boring drawn out arguefest with you.....

But you will once again resort to personal remarks instead of responding about Tolkien or even the film.

And here you are suggesting that somehow I am missing a subtle point... when what I am not missing is that simply laughing need not, in fact, necessarily mean that Gimli is repeating a false Mannish notion with his initial statement to Eowyn.

A simple enough point Smile Smilie

Dwarf women shown in the Hobbit movie looks different from dwarf men. This then can be said that Gimli was joking when he said that line.

Peter Jackson didn't know he was going to make The Hobbit when he filmed this scene with Gimli.

But since Jackson's Dwarf-women from his Hobbit can be told apart from Dwarf-men, then yes, one can now claim that Jackson was purposely going against the books in his earlier films (Gimli's initial statement being false would then only be 'true' of the film world in any case).

How is anyone supposed to tell? Gimli laughed? That doesn't make it obvious. And usually Jackson fans try to argue that the filmmakers are attempting to be faithful to the books.

Jackson did have Gimli say 'often mistaken'... but still, the pictures I have seen of the female Dwarves in the film are distinct enough to be noted as females, unless one was only given a brief or obscured glimpse. 

For someone who hasn't actually seen the film Galin you seem to have a lot of opinions on it.

Nothing personal re Sheldon, he one of my favourite characters on tv.

True Glorfindel, Im with PJ with this one.

Ok Tolkienistas, make sure you're sitting down for this...

But I did want to point out that I just saw the Erebor scene again and there are in fact 2 visible female dwarf women, both of which do, indeed, have beards.

They're not quite Gimli beards, but more like thick "bearded woman" beards. However they are wearing dresses, which is what primarily distinguishes them from the males. Admittedly seeing it for myself didn't help with the images...

For someone who hasn't actually seen the film Galin you seem to have a lot of opinions on it.

I have seen Jackson's Two Towers Brego, and thus the scene in question, and I have also seen photos of Jackson's female Dwarves, about which we all appear to agree look like women with beards (beards of some measure anyway).

I'm not sure what more I need to see to make the comments that I have made here.

Considering we've only seen two, and it was in a fleeting moment, then looking at the variety between the 13 dwarves, I think it's ridiculous to assume that's exactly what all dwarf women look like. Dressed up in armor with a shield I don't think they'd be as distinguishable as you want to think Galin, particularly since you have the advantage of analyzing a photo (not the norm for a denizen of ME). Because they have dresses on it makes it more obvious. But even Fili and Kili look like if they were put into a dress with a bonnet (and Kili's beard was maybe a bit longer) they would look like women to the same extent those dwarf women look like men. Besides these were fairly close shots, I doubt most people have seen dwarves close up. Thus, at a distance, you see a short person with a beard, arguably "like in appearance" to a male dwarf, creating the theory that you can't tell them apart.

I just want to be clear, what exactly is it we're discussing at this point? If the fact the two dwarf women PJ showed us with beards are bearded enough? Tolkien doesn't say they are clearly distinguishable, but that they are like in appearance. Gimli probably says the "unable to tell apart from men" a) in a joking manner though there's a bit of truth to everything as Brego suggested and his tone clearly suggests in TTT and/or b) because in many cases they are, but obviously not all. Like most things in Middle Earth. Or reality for that matter.

So Galin since you love to focus on the "what ifs" on Tolkien's work (limited only to what he might've written if he didn't die), it seems only fair to assume other dwarf women in PJs Middle Earth probably do look like dwarf men. And btw, again, it's comments like these that make you come off as a massive purist. It doesn't surprise me that you overthink Gimlis words so hard that what sounds like a joke to 98% of the population could be a serious discussion, regardless of he and everyone else laughing, followed by a comedic moment. What Brego said wasn't a personal attack, you just take it as one because you know it's true.

Considering we've only seen two, and it was in a fleeting moment, then looking at the variety between the 13 dwarves, I think it's ridiculous to assume that's exactly what all dwarf women look like.

I'm merely going by what I see, and we are all agreed that they are women with beards and look like women. But Tolkien doesn't write 'some' if you are arguing that Jackson is being faithful to the book here.

I just want to be clear, what exactly is it we're discussing at this point? If the fact the two dwarf women PJ showed us with beards are bearded enough?

Well that's not what Brego and I were recently discussing.

Tolkien doesn't say they are clearly distinguishable, but that they are like in appearance. Gimli probably says the "unable to tell apart from men" a) in a joking manner though there's a bit of truth to everything as Brego suggested and his tone clearly suggests in TTT and/or b) because in many cases they are, but obviously not all. Like most things in Middle Earth. Or reality for that matter.

Tolkien writes that male and female dwarves cannot be told apart by other folk, not in voice, appearance, gait, even garb if they must go on a journey. There's that word 'obviously' again but I'm not sure why I should interpret that as 'not all'.

So Galin since you love to focus on the "what ifs" on Tolkien's work (limited only to what he might've written if he didn't die), it seems only fair to assume other dwarf women in PJs Middle Earth probably do look like dwarf men.

You may assume that if you like. If you are arguing that Jackson is being faithful to the books on this point, then in my opinion none of the females should be noticeable as females, to human eyes, outside of their garb.

And btw, again, it's comments like these that make you come off as a massive purist.

I note my earlier comment that I understand why Jackson made his female Dwarves look distinguishable from his male Dwarves -- because it's a visual medium and otherwise no one would know.

It's not Tolkien of course, but it's no big deal to me for a film, and quite understandable. Is that the opinion of a 'massive purist'? You have yet to define what you mean by purist in any event.

It doesn't surprise me that you over think Gimlis words so hard that what sounds like a joke to 98% of the population could be a serious discussion, regardless of he and everyone else laughing, followed by a comedic moment.

I fully acknowledged Gimli was speaking in a light tone and even chuckling or laughing. It's whether or not simply doing that equals the obvious interpretation that (he knows) what he is saying isn't really true.

Not over-thinking, just thinking Wink Smilie

Are you or anyone really going to argue that a few laughs during an explanation can only mean the explanation is not true? It might mean that, and it might not. It's not obvious to me that Gimli is repeating what he believes is untrue, which is what I've been saying.

What Brego said wasn't a personal attack, you just take it as one because you know it's true.

Well...

A) I said they were 'personal remarks' -- I didn't call it an 'attack' but pointed out this type of thing has nothing to do with the books or films. And it is 'personal' in the sense that Brego is directly asserting that I don't understand something... instead of making his argument about the films or whatever.

B) And I certainly do not agree it's true. For example, what's the subtle point in Brego's argument that I am supposedly missing? It seems rather straightforward to me.

And I think we can all agree that there is a notable difference between 'not understanding' something and disagreeing with someone's opinion.

In the same way Brego claims that I don't understand the poetic aspects of Tolkien's work. Why? because I disagree with Brego's interpretation about something?

These broad assertions are not a substitute for good debate. I understand what Brego is posting about, but often enough I just don't agree with his position and arguments. 

It's as simple as that Smile Smilie

Lol, ok Galin, whatever you say bud...

*smiles and nods*

And bows.........

I wonder if Dwarves do shoot out of holes in the ground or rather the only Dwarves that exist are the ones created by Alue himself. When Alue created the Dwarves in secret and was finally discovered the Iluvatar said “in no other way shall I amend thy work as thou has made it so it shall be”. Well as they were right then they were all male (the 7 Dwarven Fathers). Also in the end the Iluvatar removed all trace of his existence even to the point that Bilbo and Frodo left for the gray heavens because they had been tainted by the power of the ring. Maybe the Dwarves unable to reproduce or mix with the blood men simply faded away.  

Ainulindale, that's an interesting observation from The Silmarillion, but we know female Dwarves existed, and the female Dwarf Dis is even noted in the Appendices as the mother of Fili and Kili for example, herself the daughter of Thrain II.

Actually JRRT wrote no less than five different passages which concerned the origin of the Dwarves and included females (plus a letter). In the first of these passages, Iluvatar himself adds the mates, yet he would not 'amend' the work of Aule who had made things of male form, explaining what is noted in Appendix A I would say.

So in this version we find the same word 'amend' as in the citation from The Silmarillion.

In the second and third versions Aule makes the mates. In the fourth and fifth versions, it is not said who made the females, but that Aule laid a mate beside the Seven Fathers -- save not beside Durin in the fifth version, and not beside 'the eldest' in Tolkien's letter.

But rather than figure out which version, if any of them, Tolkien was pleased enough with, it seems that he ultimately writes a new version of the whole section and simply leaves out mention of females -- again knowing that his readers already have Appendix A in any case...

... but again, as you note, he still writes (has Iluvatar say to Aule): '... but in no other way will I amend thy handiwork, and as thou hast made it, so shall it be.'

Of course as I say, there were versions where Aule had made the female mates; but still, it's interesting.

 

Also, I think you might be correct at least with respect to Tolkien's very early idea about Dwarves. In early tales the Dwarves were evil and mysterious, and...

'Old are they, and never comes a child among them, nor do they laugh. They are squat in stature, and yet are strong, and their beards reach even to their toes, but the beards of the Indrafangs are the longest of all, and are forked, and they bind...'

JRRT, The Nauglafring, The Book of Lost Tales

Christopher Tolkien wonders if the statement about children here is to be connected to the later (much later) idea that it was only a false Mannish conception that there are no Dwarf-women, but I'm also wondering if rather, at this early stage, it was supposed to be a 'true' notion.

Anyway, we can see why males and females would be indistinguishable to other folk if Iluvatar stepped in and created the females modeled after Aule's creation.

mmm still not buying it. Why, if Illuvatar added the females, would it mean they looked even more like the males? Illuvatar made all, everything, and understood the fairer sex more than anyone, even the Valar chose their guise as male or female. Doesn't make sense.

I believe that the Seven Fathers are simply mentioned as The Lords of the Dwarves as are The Three Lords of the Elves were mentioned after the meeting with Orome on the shores of Cuivienen.

Far more believable that along with the Seven Father were their people also created by Aule and were placed to sleep in their deep halls along with them. Once awake population could then take place.

The answer seems simple enough to me: these were Aule's creations and Eru thus chose not to amend them.

And the external answer is that Tolkien needed something that agreed with Appendix A, something that explained his idea of why Dwarf-women looked so much like Dwarf-men that other folk could not distinguish them... especially after Appendix A was published.

And the Seven Fathers are (obviously) called the Seven Fathers and Seven Ancestors; and Tolkien refers to Durin as the 'ultimate forefather' of the Longbeards, and that the Seven Fathers 'awoke' in the deeps of time, while in contrast... 

... when the Elves had dwelt in the world three hundred and thirty-five Sun Years, Orome came among them, and some of the Quendi hid themselves, and some fled or were lost. Orome returns, and he: '... chose from among them three ambassadors who should go to Valinor and speak for the people. And three only of the chieftains of the Quendi were willing to adventure the journey: Ingwe, Finwe, and Elwe, who afterwards were kings'

Who 'afterwards' were Kings. And there is no text that I recall (in the updated scenario at least) in which these Elves are noted as awakening. I note that the Annals of Aman contains the detail that three only of the chieftains were willing to go.

Far more believable that along with the Seven Father were their people also created by Aule and were placed to sleep in their deep halls along with them. Once awake population could then take place.

Here it may be interesting to note (according to late text connected with Of Dwarves And Men) that Tolkien was thinking of a change: in a section concerning where the Seven Ancestors awakened, Durin, while still the Eldest 'in making and awakening', awakes alone and without companions, noting the plural here.

In the margin Tolkien explained that Durin wandered after awakening, and that his people were other Dwarves that joined him, JRRT also noting that other Dwarves should be laid to sleep near to the Fathers. It's also interesting that Tolkien had added some description for the revised edition of The Lord of the Rings, making Durin the ancestor of the Kings of the Longbeards.

In any case Tolkien never revised his description of the female Dwarves however.

So Galin getting to the point.

Aule made seven Dwarven Fathers or Lords along with population unknown for each Lord.

Eru blessed them with sentient with after scolding Aule for making them and being impatient.

They were hidden deep in halls beneath the earth to await the wakening of the Elves.

They came forth and founded Kingdoms and became strong.

The female Dwarves had beards and therefor at least some of the other children of Eru thought they looked like the Men.

This is what we know given the scarce facts given to us by JRRT.  What I am arguing is that if the Dwarves had no reason to breed, as there progeny came out of the ground, fully formed, as rumor had it.  why would there have been any need at all for Aule and or Illuvatar to make Females? And if so why then have them look like Men?  This just doesn't fit into the natural world of JRRT.  I don't think he clarified because he didn't think he needed to.

 

 

 

Far more believable that along with the Seven Father were their people also created by Aule and were placed to sleep in their deep halls along with them. Once awake population could then take place.

There were 13 dwarves total. Each father was laid with his mate except Durin. He was laid alone without a mate.

The female Dwarves had beards and therefor at least some of the other children of Eru thought they looked like the Men.

The wording is: '... the eyes and ears of other peoples cannot tell them apart.'

What I am arguing is that if the Dwarves had no reason to breed, as there progeny came out of the ground, fully formed, as rumor had it. why would there have been any need at all for Aule and or Illuvatar to make Females?

Brego, the false Mannish notion (or 'foolish opinion among Men' as Appendix A puts it) was that there are no Dwarf women and that the Dwarves 'grow out of stone.'

The truth according to Gimli was that there were few Dwarf-women, but women nonetheless: 'It is because of the fewness of women among them that the kind of the Dwarves increases slowly, and is in peril when they have no secure dwellings.'

And if so why then have them look like Men?

You'll have to ask Tolkien that one (as I said, in my opinion it adds to the uniqueness of this race), but once he imagined this was true and published it, it was a given, and no less so than Hobbits having hairy feet for example. 

And so in the five passages where JRRT muses about the origin of the Dwarves (that include females), in one he explains why they look so similar, by having Eru choose not to amend the work of Aule, the 'Dwarven artist' so to speak.

What I noted about the latest Quenta Silmarillion text is that Tolkien still chose to have Eru explain that he will not 'amend' Aule's work... or rather Ainulindale noted it, and I pointed out the wording from the passage (only one among four other variations) in which Iluvatar creates the females.

I'm sorry I still don't follow the argument here.

Brego are you saying dwarf women did exist with beards and you just don't think they looked identical to men? If so I think this is pretty obvious and have to undoubtedly agree. Tolkien's words do not indicate they look identical to men and are impossible to tell apart, but that most other non-dwarves have trouble telling them apart. This is evident in the films. For instance, myself and others I've asked didn't even realize those were women. It wasn't until it was pointed out on here and that I re-watched it and paid close attention to the fact they were, in fact, bearded women. Thus, to me, a normal everyday child of Illuvatar, in the heat of the moment, they looked like men and I could not tell them apart unless I was either specifically looking for differences or the scene was frozen in front of me.

Yes Balrogs I think we are on the same path. There is no reason, even if the females are few, that they would not follow the basic, Eru given, laws of nature. I still say that the rumour that Men and Elves cannot tell the difference between Male and Female is an exaggeration perpetrated by the Dwarves them selves. The Dwarves are all about mystery regarding their culture and that's how they like to keep it.

'They are in voice and appearance, and in garb if they must go on a journey, so like to the dwarf-men that the eyes and ears of other peoples cannot tell them apart.'

I guess for this, there can be a reasoning behind it. It can be said that dwarf women are just in disguise so the other race won't know that they are women.

The truth according to Gimli was that there were few Dwarf-women, but women nonetheless: 'It is because of the fewness of women among them that the kind of the Dwarves increases slowly, and is in peril when they have no secure dwellings.'

I think another reason why dwarves increase slower is because of their stubborness. If they didn't get the one whom they choose, then they would rather not take a spouse at all.

EX: Gimli "fell in love" with Galadriel. At first he wanted her hair and use it as an heirloom of his house, but his line ended with him since he would not take a mate after seeing Galadriel.

And so in the five passages where JRRT muses about the origin of the Dwarves (that include females), in one he explains why they look so similar, by having Eru choose not to amend the work of Aule, the 'Dwarven artist' so to speak.

I don't think Eru changed the 7 fathers of the dwarves but the dwarves are now part of his big design. This being said, I think Eru had to changed some things about the dwarves to fit his "big plan"

Then Aulë in grief and repentance humbled himself and asked for pardon. And he said: 'I will destroy these images of my presumption, and wait upon thy will.' And he took a great hammer, raising it to smite the eldest of his images; but it flinched and cowered from him. And as he withheld his stroke, astonished, he heard the laughter of Ilúvatar.
'Do you wonder at this?' he said. 'Behold! thy creatures now live, free from thy will! For I have seen thy humility, and taken pity on your impatience. Thy making I have taken up into my design.'

Brego are you saying dwarf women did exist with beards and you just don't think they looked identical to men? If so I think this is pretty obvious and have to undoubtedly agree.

It's not simply the case that Dwarf women have beards and thus are sometimes mistaken for male Dwarves if one doesn't get a good enough look at them.

Tolkien writes 'in voice and appearance' -- he doesn't even mention beards in Appendix A -- but as appearance is rather a blanket statement which includes beards then beards is also naturally assumed, along with the fact that all Dwarves have beards. Plus:

 '... nor can their womenkind be discerned by those of other race, be it in feature or in gait or in voice, nor in any wise save this: that they go not to war, and seldom (...) issue from their deep bowers and halls.' JRRT Quenta Silmarillion

And Christopher Tolkien comments about this (and notes Appendix A as well): 'Dwarf women cannot be distinguished from the Men by those of other race.

Feature, gait (how they walk for instance), even voice. And note that it's not that some of the Children are fooled, it's other races; nor does CJRT interpret that Dwarf-women are simply mistaken for male Dwarves at times because they have beards and others might not get a good enough look at them.

And it's made all the more clear when Tolkien has Iluvatar saying he would not amend the work of Aule, who in this version had only made male Dwarves -- an attempt to explain the notion set out in Appendix A and elsewhere.

Off subject: I was reading the intro to the lost tales and CT mentioned a story about how Gandalf came to send the Dwarves to the celebrated party at Bag End. Can someone tell me where this story is i don't know how i missed it.

Nope, Galin you are still reading alot into a very little.  Simply quoting and re-quoting paragraphs we have all already read isnt going to persuade me, that as you seem to believe, that the Dwarves were a separate humanoid group of Hermaphrodites, cloned from 7 originators.

Perhaps "Voice and Appearance" could mean that at first the Elves and certainly men would not have understood their language and therefore could recognize men from women. 

As I've constantly stated, it goes against the laws of Nature, which Tolkien himself always adheres to, with his mortal folk anyway.

Nope, Galin you are still reading alot into a very little. Simply quoting and re-quoting paragraphs we have all already read isnt going to persuade me, that as you seem to believe, that the Dwarves were a separate humanoid group of Hermaphrodites, cloned from 7 originators.

No one is claiming Tolkien's Dwarf women are hermaphrodites Brego.

Moreover I am the one who posted Tolkien's late note where all the Dwarves do not descend from the Seven Fathers alone. Moreover Aule did not make hermaphrodites in the first place, so why would 'cloning' them produce any such thing.

Perhaps "Voice and Appearance" could mean that at first the Elves and certainly men would not have understood their language and therefore could recognize men from women.

Huh? Can you explain this interpretation a little more clearly? Here you substitute 'language' for voice when the language of the Dwarf women would be like that of the Dwarf-men in any case... and what about the appearance part?

And in any case your response notably lacks comment on the full picture here: feature, gait, voice, not to mention Tolkien's 'nor in any wise' could they be distinguished save what he then notes (that they go not to war and so on).

As I've constantly stated, it goes against the laws of Nature, which Tolkien himself always adheres to, with his mortal folk anyway.

Yet Tolkien himself wrote the passage about Eru not amending Aule's work when Aule had only made male Dwarves.

And here I am going to use the word 'obviously' as I think it's obvious that Tolkien means Eru will nonetheless amend them such that they can reproduce, just like he had 'amended them' in the sense that he gave them free will, if one wants to get technical about it...

... but in the main, the general look of the Dwarves, as Aule 'designed' them not Eru, was such that (clothed) male and female Dwarves could not be distinguished by other folk.

If the female voices were notably higher then one could distinguish them 'in that wise', but even this was not so. And Tolkien has no need to comment on the scenario of naked Dwarves being considered by other peoples, as he knows he is writing for adult minds who realize that two males cannot produce children.

There are still Dwarf women after all, and the Dwarves themselves can seemingly tell them apart.

And Tolkien has no need to comment on the scenario of naked Dwarves being considered by other peoples, as he knows he is writing for adult minds who realize that two males cannot produce children.

Actually the Hobbit was a children's book.

The Dwarves are all about mystery regarding their culture and that's how they like to keep it.

I agree with Brego on this one. Since the Silmarillion was written by elves, I don't think we can say it's 100% true when it comes to the history of dwarves.

Actually the Hobbit was a children's book.

And Appendix A does not appear in The Hobbit, nor Tolkien's thoughts about the female Dwarves in Quenta Silmarilion.

The Dwarves are all about mystery regarding their culture and that's how they like to keep it.

I agree with Brego on this one. Since the Silmarillion was written by elves, I don't think we can say it's 100% true when it comes to the history of dwarves.

Appendix A notes Gimli as its source concerning females. Quenta Silmarillion merely helps illustrate what Appendix A really means.

Incidentally, the Silmarillion was not written by Elves (generally speaking), but I think it's possible that Tolkien thought that the information about female Dwarves was fairly 'private' information, and he did not have 'a Gimli' here [for Silmarillion] to authorize such information, as Dwarven women were few and didn't go to war and so on.

Either that, or Tolkien just couldn't make up his mind at the moment between variations. 

Tolkien probably had one idea for Dwarves that changed into a different idea over many years hence any conflicting or confusing information. I like the idea of the Dwarves being the most secretive culture and Elves not being completely truthful about the known history of Dwarves. I think  there are some things he did not want us to know. 

But again, Appendix A where it concerns female Dwarves is not an Elvish account. Tolkien is careful here, knowing that the 'truth' must come from a Dwarf to topple the foolish Mannish notions.

And Tolkien did want his readers to know some things Smile Smilie

And Tolkien has no need to comment on the scenario of naked Dwarves being considered by other peoples, as he knows he is writing for adult minds who realize that two males cannot produce children.

And Appendix A does not appear in The Hobbit, nor Tolkien's thoughts about the female Dwarves in Quenta Silmarilion.

LOTR wasn't just for adults.

Appendix A notes Gimli as its source concerning females.

But again, Appendix A where it concerns female Dwarves is not an Elvish account. Tolkien is careful here, knowing that the 'truth' must come from a Dwarf to topple the foolish Mannish notions.

And Tolkien did want his readers to know some things

Again the secrecy of the dwarves comes to play again. Gimli may not have wanted to reveal every truth about the dwarves to others. After all, Gimli is not the dwarf's real name.

"some" by definition means,  Being an unspecified number or quantity

So the dwarves may have been the other "some" that Tolkien didn't want readers to know.

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