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Golly,
you are of course right that Frodo became more sensitive and mature long before his final fall when the Ring broke at last his resistance. However, the fact that he strove so very hard to resist the temptation of the Ring... and yet he did not succeed... must have marked him very profoundly as well. I have a feeling (just a feeling, an intuition...) that his uwilingness to kill anybody was related to profound compassion toward all his fellow men (and fellow hobiits), including the fallen ones. He knew now from his own experience, how it may be difficult, or even positively impossible, not to fall, eben if one does really his best! So he did not want anymore to act as a stern judge and "condamn" anybody... he felt he has no right to do that, actually, that nobody has any right to do that...
I actually think his reluctance to kill comes from the fact that he became corrupted by the ring. I do think he could have killed gollum both before and at mount Doom - when he was defending the ring from being taken. No doubt he fought very hard against Gollum taking the ring (and had Gollum not succeeded, Frodo may have thrown him into the fires and killed him himself). But having been "forgiven" and having forgiven himself somewhat, he is reluctant to do anything that would bring him that close to being corrupted again. Just as some (former) alcoholics won't even have Nyquil in the house, Frodo didn't even want to face the temptation. Killing is a very serious thing and can indeed corrupt your soul if not done in the spirit of sacrifice - and I don't think Frodo wanted to take any more chances with his soul.

[Edited on 28/6/2002 by swampfaye]
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I don't think he would have, because the Ring had finally succeeded in taking over Frodo's mind in the end. And apparently Eryan is with me here, but not everyone is. Big Smile Smilie


OK Tommy, I rise to the bait. I know you are refering to me here.
We talked about this in the discussion group and I don't share the opinion the quest would have failed without gollum. I would love to believe Sam could have brought Frodo back to reason and Frodo would have throwed the ring in himself. Maybe after a fight with Sam (with Sam almost going over the edge, yes almost Plastic!) that could make him realise what he is doing, bringing him back to his senses. But obviously i was standing alone with this idea. Anyone with me? Wary Smilie
That would have been a beautiful ending...

Have you ever seen Young Hercules (based on the Kevin Sorbo Hercules: TLJ)? There was one episode that sticks in my mind (my kids loved the show) where Hercules was burning up with the fire from the Gods or something, that made him evil. THe only person he couldn't hurt was Iolaus and the only way that his friends could save him was by throwing Iolaus into the water and drowning him (almost) - Hercules had to dive into the water to save Iolaus and it put out the fire.

thats what your ending reminded me of - Isn't it interesting the enduring energy and depth friendship can take on? I suppose this is what God intended for marriage as well - I feel like I'll be one hundred ans eleven before I reach that level with my husband...

[Edited on 1/7/2002 by swampfaye]
Anyway, Frodo WAS corrupted by the Ring, and even if the Quest would succeed not because of Gollum's intervention, bu because of Sam, it is a fact which must have marked him deeply.
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Anyway, Frodo WAS corrupted by the Ring, and even if the Quest would succeed not because of Gollum's intervention, bu because of Sam, it is a fact which must have marked him deeply.


Yes of course, I too believe the ring damaged Frodo. It also had his effect on Bilbo and he did give away the ring out of free will. Frodo didn't have the ring as long as Bilbo did, but during his journey in Mordor the power of the ring must have been way much stronger. So even if he could have thrown the ring in the fire himself, he still would have been marked by the heavy psychological battles he has been through.
Maybe he couldn't throw the ring into the fire... but could he throw "himself" into the fire?
Now that's interesting. Like Gollum did, you mean? But why would Frodo throw himself in? Or maybe the edge gave way again? Tongue Smilie Me guessing Frodo could not have thrown the Ring in all by himself. With the "help" of Gollum or Sam perhaps, but not on his own. The power of the Ring had become too strong for anyone to be able to do that.
He absolutely could not have thrown it in himself...way back in FotR, Gandalf had to take the ring from Frodo before they could throw it even into the cooking fire...if Frodo wasn't able to hurt the ring then, before he was so much under its power, there is no way that he could have done it at Mt Doom. It would be fabulous if, like you say, gnampie, Sam could talk Frodo back to reason, but I think he was beyond any help. Also, you know, I'm not sure that anyone could have willingly destroyed the ring; it was just too powerful.
If Gandalf took the ring while Frodo was under it's power... why couldn't Sam take the ring and throw it? I believe even a hobbit could have a will greater than Sauron.... even if it wasn't writen that way. And you really don't know what would have happened if Frodo *realized* he would lose Sam without action. Even Gollum forgot his need for the ring when he reached for Frodo...if only for a moment.
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Also, you know, I'm not sure that anyone could have willingly destroyed the ring; it was just too powerful.


Yes, of course! That's it! Thank you Chika for pointing this out for me.
I always thought Frodo was stronger as Bilbo, that's why I couldn't believe Frodo couldn't willingly give up the ring and Bilbo could. But that's the difference! Bilbo only had to give up the ring, pass it through, while Frodo had to destroy the ring. I just never realized the difference between those two situations.

Now Faye, what you said sounds interesting. I can see it happen already:
Sam taking the ring from Frodo to cast it into the fire. This makes Frodo so angry he attacts Sam, which causes Sam to fall over the edge. Luckily he is still carrying some of that Elven rope (I know he isn't in the book, but just suppose he still has some) wich gets stuck behind a rock and saves him from falling into the fire. The thought of almost having Sam killed, brings Frodo back to his senses and he pulls Sam back on the rock.
Wouldn't that be beautiful!
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Luckily he is still carrying some of that Elven rope (I know he isn't in the book, but just suppose he still has some)
Sam being the sensible Hobbit that he is, and knowing they still had a mountain to climb, didn't toss the rope into that crevice in the waste, where he ditched his pots and pans. (However, not having any mountaineering experience, he failed to obtain any other climbing hardware from the Elves.) And the rope was of such light weight, that it caused no hindrance to Sam's movement, even while carrying Frodo up to the Cracks of Doom.

Therefore, he still may well have had the rope about his person and your scenario remains plausible. And a very heart warming ending it would be. Smile Smilie

Sorry if I have mixed my tenses here, its almost 3 AM and I should be in bed Sleeping Smilie.
What about a heart-rendering ending in which Frodo feels that he cannot throw the ring into the fire and with the rest of his free will implores Sam to push him into the fire together with the Ring? and Sam must do that, must scrifice his dearest friend to save the world from black doom?
This would be a very big problem for Sam! I think he cared more for Frodo than for the rest of the world. He would only do that because it would be Frodo's wish. But I think if Sam is forced to push Frodo in, he would jump in the crack of doom together with his dearest friend.
Exactly! I had the same idea yesterday evening, already after making that post. And I thought that they even might jump into the fire together, holding themselves by the hands...
Boohoo! Very Sad Smilie I can see it happening before my eyes. Oh what a wonderful (though very sad, but still wonderful) ending that would be.

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If Gandalf took the ring while Frodo was under it's power... why couldn't Sam take the ring and throw it?


The point in this, faye, is that Gandalf had a much bigger influence over Frodo than Sam. Remember how afraid Bilbo was of him when Gandalf was So Angry Smilie about Bilbo not willing to give up the Ring. Now Frodo was a young lad who had learned a lot from Gandalf, and who could easily be "influenced" or I'd rather say "impressed" by Gandalf. Especially after hearing a story like the one Gandalf had just told him.
I think you might be underestimating Sam's influence on Frodo. Who was the first person he asked for at Rivendell? Why would he ask for Sam if he knew he was with ARagorn? Frodo knew even then that he needed Sam - if he knew then, why wouldn't he know it that much more when he was in Mordor? (and don't give me the ring was influencing him - Frodo even asked Sam to hold his hand so he didn't touch the ring - which shows me he still knew he had Sam to aid him)
Yesyesyes. You could be more right here faye. Frodo needed Sam and he knew it. But Sam couldn't possibly influence Frodo that much as to let him give up the Ring. And you must remember that if the Ringbearer didn't give the Ring away willingly, that could have dangerous effects (think about Gollum). And Sam couldn't possibly take the Ring from Frodo. He was only his servant, and he knew it and was happy with it. But he had to much respect for Frodo to take the Ring from him.
The question wasn't his respect, but his loyalty and his wisdom... could Sam do what he had to to save Frodo despite having to "take" it from him? He didn't get the chance to be tested... but I do think Sam had more than enough sense to know that both Frodo and the world were doomed if they failed - Bilbo was able to give the ring up after years and years of attachment that in many ways could rival gollum's... Frodo didn't get the opportunity to "give the ring up" - Gandalf was there to help convince Bilbo ... Sam certainly didn't try to convince Frodo to give it up, having enough faith in his master that he would... while misguided, maybe - he certainly realized the importance of the mission . Frodo, while becoming obsessed with the ring still wasn't so much like Gollum that he was irredeemable... so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt that there were several ways that the ring could have been destroyed...
Now that's what I call reasonable reasoning! Animated Wink Smilie Totally agree. Big Smile Smilie
My thoughts exactly!
Alls i hafta say is thank you elijah for portraying sucha great Frodo. Excellent performance. I don't think ne one could have played Frodo the way that he did. The facial expressions, the emotions , the everything basically. I fell in love with Frodo in the movie. Good stuff. He is the ultimate portrayal of a true hobbit.
Welcome to our forum Angieb. Smile Smilie
HI there Angieb! And welcome indeed! Enjoy! Big Smile Smilie
Some more thoughts about Frodo (a fifty-year old Frodo from the book, not the young hobbit from the movie...) What is the essential of his story? During many years he is simply content to live a good, easy, happy life: walking with his friends, occasionally meeting Elves... And then one day he must go and forsake all that hapiness. And he canot save the world for himself, only for others.
But this is the story of every living creature! We are all mortals and at some point in our lives we realize that we cannot save the world for ourselves. We will have to leave it. But still, we can give something to our world before we go.
Even animals undergo that transition from the stage of egocentric selfishness to the stage of benevolent altruism for the benefit of their social group. When they are young, they are often ruthless and they fight for dominatiion and access to reproduction. But when they are aged, they often focus their efforts to act as benefactors for their social group (usually copmosed of their kin and offspring).
JRRT wrote Silmarilion stories when he was young. The story of Beren and Luthien and of Tuor and Idril are boith about a lonely young hero, orphaned and disposseed, who succeeds to win a beautiful princess from a noble people. But the story of Frodo is different - it is a story of an elderly mortal who must leave all he loved and go into darkness... who was noit strong enough to resist a terrible temptation, but did his best... and is rewarded for his self-sacrifice - he has to leave ME but he will live in the Blessed Realm, in peace and bliss...
That's very nicely put, Eryan.
Hobbits aged a little slower than Men (or at least humans of our world), and did not come of age until they were 33, but at 50, Frodo would still be equivalent to someone in their mid-forties. It is very easy to imagine Frodo as someone much younger.
w/out Gollum the 2nd half of RotK would b kinda boring.
Welcome to our forum CrystalBolger. Happy Elf Smilie

You are right, without Gollum, Frodo and Sam probably would have gotten lost, become bogged down, and then starved in the middle of the Dead Marshes. If instead, they had tried to traverse around the Dead Marshes, they would have assuredly been captured by Sauron's forces. No matter what Aragorn, Gandalf, Legolas and Gimli, or Merry and Pippin did in their half of The Two Towers and The Return of the King, the good guys would have lost. Elf Confused Smilie Then nobody would ever choose to re-read this epic tragedy, let alone frequent a Website about it. Elf With a Big Grin Smilie
I LUV FRODO(AND ELIJAH WOOD)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and i got sum things i wanna say:
1)of course Frodo looks like he's about 20! If u remember from the chapter "a long expected party", 33 is a hobbit's coming of age year. i'm guessin that is the equivelant of a 20 year old in the world of Men. and Frodo had the Ring so he didnt age after that.
2)didnt Sam try 2 take the Ring once? (i may b wrong bout this, havent read the books 4 a couple months) i thought Frodo freaked out and tried 2 kill him when he did
No, I'm pretty sure Frodo never tried to kill Sam. The only time Sam took the ring was in the "Two Towers" after the fight with Shelob when he thought that Frodo was dead.
When Sam rescued Frodo from the Tower of Cirith Ungol and said he had saved The Ring from the enemy, Frodo grew wild to get The Ring back. Had not Sam quickly returned it, a onesided fight would have ensued, which would have been detrimental to Sam's well being, as The Ring's power over Frodo was far advanced.
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Some more thoughts about Frodo ... What is the essential of his story? During many years he is simply content to live a good, easy, happy life: walking with his friends, occasionally meeting Elves... And then one day he must go and forsake all that hapiness. And he canot save the world for himself, only for others.
But this is the story of every living creature! We are all mortals and at some point in our lives we realize that we cannot save the world for ourselves. We will have to leave it. But still, we can give something to our world before we go.
Even Terry Pratchett knew this, for he wrote the following in his Diskworld novel, Maskerade
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"But no one said 'thank you' or anything!"

"Often the case," said Granny.

"Too busy thinking about the next performance," said Nanny. "The show must go on," she added.

"That's ... madness!"

"It's opera. I noticed that even Mr. Bucket's caught it, too," said Nanny. "And that young Andrť has been rescued from being a policeman, if I'm any judge."

"But what about me?"

"Oh, them as makes the endings don't get them," said Granny. She brushed an invisible speck of dust off her shoulder.

"I expect we'd better be gettin' aslong, Gytha," she said, turning her back on Agnes. "Early start tomorrow."
But of course the opera still wasn't over until after the full-bodied Agnes made her final encore, where the harmonics of her multiple-octave voice broke much glassware. Now that she had finished her aria, the opera was indeed, over. (From whence cometh the famous bottom of the ninth inning baseball quote.) Cool Elf Smilie
I understand what you are saying, Ringfacwen. Happy Elf Smilie

I didn't feel that way about the book's Frodo; however, so far the movie rendition of him is just a two-dimensional scared pretty Hobbit. Maybe in the next films. we will see a few more dimensions.
In the TTT movie book there are some great pics of Wood starting to look a little Gollum like and struggling with the ring - pretty cool - i think it will be good.
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Is it me, or did Eljah wood bring much more life and feeling to Frodo in the movie than he has in the book? I never thought much of Frodo while reading the book, but the movie made me feel truly compassionate for Frodo. What about you?


you have to remeber that books aren't as meaningfull for some poeple, my best friends needed to see the movie to understand the true meaning of the book, even if i'm awere that the movie has been contaminated by the Market.
I agree with you Arwen, he brought the books to LIFE!!!!! i did love it and when i saw The Fellowship for the first time, that was got me hooked! the emotion in these films are incredible. the books can only give you so much, seeing is sometimes better
I loved Elijah Wood as Frodo. He is a extremely talented actor and he deserves so much recognition. I just wanted to hug him and kiss him he was so darn cute. =P
Well, I think I'd better balance the views a little. I myself think that, if anything, Peter jackson made Frodo not two-dimensioned, but one-dimensioned, and that the book showed him as having a personality, not just "ah... the ring....... ah....... wab.... wab...." (Please don't ask what wab means). I think there was too much in the movie in the way of Frodo starting to be like gollum. It masked his real self too much, and we didn't get to see that self very often. I woudln't like to say Elijah Wood played it well or he didn't, because we have to remember that the actors are playing what they are told. Of course they can inject a bit of originality into it, but in the way of lines and actions they are very much restricted by the script. It is the scriptwriters that we must focus on.
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It is the scriptwriters that we must focus on.


And I guess we all know who's responsible for that, right?! *points to PJ, Phillipa Boyens and Fred Ward*
And who stood above them, sitting on the moneybag? They did start with a script practically word by word from the book. Just look at the costumes and scenery and props, I belive that if PJ had been given free hands on the script too, things would have been very different. But we wouldn't be happy no matter what he did. He might as well please the masses, the die hard fans would never be pleased. They are good movies if you manage to put the book out of your head while watching. Which I can't, hehe. At least they made quite a few people aware of Tolkiens world.
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