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Frodo told Sam an enemy would "look fair and feel foul" and Strider said "Where I look fould and feel fair, is that it?" Sam didn't trust Strider. And the Strider in the movie isn't particularly handsome, especially compared to his fellows, but he is rugged looking.
Tolkien told his story like a male. It is a very insightful read if you are a female (if you want that kinda look into a male psyche). I was thinking of starting a thread about that... under the books: LOTR discussion.. so look it up and see if I actually started it I suppose...
As for the masculine beauty, also Turin Turambar is told to be extremely handsome
- almst as an Elf (he is even called Adanedhel because of that).
As for the looks of Frodo, he is described by Gandalf to Barliman Butterbur in a following way:
"A stout little fellow with red cheeks [...]. It goes for most hobbits [...] but this one is taller than
some and fairer than most, and he has a cleft in his chin: perky chap with a bright eye"
Well this description does not fit very well to Elijah Wood does it?
I will tell a blasphemy now - I realised right now, that it fits very well to the
French actor... Gerard Depardieu!
Now I'm hiding my head in my shoulders awaiting an avalanche of protests...!
To tell you the truth, that's how I've always imagined Frodo. That, or a pint-sized Winston Churchill.
Yeah, a young Winnie with a pipe instead of a cigar. But of course then it won't sell many tickets to the teenie-boppers.
You too imagined Forod in this way?!!!
I awaited only blows - what a delightful surprise!...
Actually, small Winnie with a pipe was always my idea of Bilbo...
Mine too. But Gerard Depardieu?? No, Elijah did a great job, and he more or less fitted my image of Frodo, but then younger. I imagined Frodo to be a lot older than the other hobbits. To look it, anyway. To look wiser, less boyish.
Yeah, young Winnie with the pipe will do.
It's strange though, that I've always imagined Bilbo as a young, pixie/gnome like bloke - maybe it's because I read the Hobbit when I was much, much younger. He seemed younger than Frodo in my imagination...doesn't make sense, I know.
Makes total sense Ungy. I remember meeting with some old friends from high school.. I expected them to look the same even after 15 years! Imagine what a difference if it were 60 years like in the Fellowship!
Elijah is how I would have liked to picture Frodo if I didn't despise him so much in the books.. (actually the Bashki version of Frodo is how I imagined him, but I prefer the movie version).
That's right faye - maybe that's why I got such a shock when I saw how old Bilbo was in FotR.
I felt sorry for book Frodo because I couldn't bear to imagine an old-ish fellow plodding slowly up the mountain & through marshes ....carrying such a burden. It broke my heart...I hate to see old people suffer since I always imagine how it's like if my parents were in that position. Dunno if I'll feel sorry for the movie Frodo. It's hard to feel that much pity for a person so young.
I never thought about Frodo in that way. I always assumedt that his suffering was mostly
on the mental plan, comparable to sufferings of someone determined to fight with a very
Physically, he seems to be quite fit - after all, he alsways loved long walks in the countryside
and it seems that he had quite a lot of exercise when still living peacefully in Shire...
In Tolkien's world old people are often in a very good physical shape, they are "hale":
look at Gandalf, quick and nimble as a goat, or even on Theoden charging enemy at the Helm's Deep or on
Eh? I wasn't thinking so much of his physical condition - true the ring wore him out as he got closer to Mt. Doom. I meant Frodo's total sufferings - mental, physical, spiritual and emotional. And a older figure, bearing that kind of burden, is more pitiful than a young-ish, perky, chubby chap - at least to me.
Yes - but, at the same time, older "veterans", as a consequence of their lifelong "schooling"
(to use the words of Sam...) are often better prepared to copy with such stress that young
You say "Old" like 50 was 76 or something... and these hobbits are 30ish when around 50. I know that an older man would be much more able to handle the temptations the ring produced than a younger man, just from his years and experience. But on the other hand, 30 is just right... not too old... not too young. Enough life experience to make him wise and enough youth to make him vigorous. (who do you think is more dangerous, one of the power rangers or Bruce Lee at his prime of 35???)
well even a well-preserved 70 year old may be mortally dangerous and
fit for considerable effort. Think about the astronaut John Glenn!
Christopher Lee certainly looked dangerous
Yeah, but book frodo set out at 50 - around the same age as Bilbo when he went off on his little adventure. So he would have looked at least as wrinkled as Bilbo did in the film when he found the ring - and that would have generated more pity. I just don't feel as sorry for a younger looking Frodo, that's all.
*Yet another PJ cock-up*
When he shows Bilbo finding the ring, he looks considerably younger than he does at the party. Thus not in the least "unchanged" in appearance as he should be from the ring's power.
And was Bilbo supposed to age *that* much by the time Frodo met him in Rivendell?
If he was, then what about Gollum, did 500-600 years catch up with him when he lost the ring?
Bilbo was about 50 when he found the ring which he had until he was eleventy-one (111) when he turned it over to Frodo and left for Rivendale. When Frodo met Bilbo there, Bilbo was 128 and was only two years younger than the long-lived Old Took. In the seventeen years sans the ring he probably aged at an accelerated rate for the first few years which would probably slow down as he approached is true age.
This still leaves us with Ungoliant's question about Gollum, for which I don't have a clue. Do you?
perhaps Gollum was a special case, anyway, i didn't really took the ring's power to retain one's youthful looks literally- Bilbo did look older than when he first found the ring but had he aged naturally, he probably would've been dead. I think the ring is meant to slow down the physical process of aging, i.e. UV rays, etc but the mental toll on the mind from the possession of the ring must have been cosiderable.
Rosie: d*mn right you are again. And I'm agreeing with you once more...
old when Frodo met him in Rivendell, that's why he looked it. And because he no longer had the Ring, he bad aged very very fast. Frodo, on the other hand, was 33 when Bilbo threw his party, and 50 when he set off to Mt. Doom. The journey must have aged him, and the mental weight of the Ring even more. So I'm wondering how much older Frodo will look when the journey is over...
He'll probably look just like Elijah Wood does now..
Maybe the ring is like radiation... you are safe taking so much in and it makes you sick with a little bit more and sometimes with too much you start to mutate (like Gollum). How's that?
I think faye's got it! Great explaination, never thought of it that way! Grondie, give the girl a pseudo-simaril!
*ding ding* we have a winner! i don't think any of us could've explained it better, swampfaye. ^_^
(ack, i haven't been here in so long. i missed you all!)
*wipes a tear*
You like me... you *really* like me!
*holds up her first pseudo-simaril*
I want to thank everyone on this board...
Seriously I was just finishing a column on the "real villian of LOTR" the ring and was trying to explain why it was so sinister. This is the perfect description, IMO, because radiation poisining is sooo gradual that by the time you are sick, it's almost too late! [Edited on 5/3/2002 by swampfaye]
A wonderful explanation indeed.. Congratulations Faye, you got it right!
We still have the addict thing to explain then. What is it that draws you to the ring once you have worn it? Radiation?
No, I think that (like in the case of all addictions) the Ring stimulates the reward system of the brain. It produces the state of euphoria (when you have the Ring on) and the phenomenon of craving (when you abstain from using it). A sad common well known trap of all addictions!
I hadn't thought of that...
What do you guys think Frodo was really like? His inner character, I mean.
Well no, you don't "have" to read the appendices; however IMHO Appendices A and B at the end of ROTK provide a lot of useful information which help expand on what happened before and what came after Sam's 'Well, I'm back.' at the end of the final chapter entitled "The Grey Havens".
[Edited on 25/5/2002 by Grondmaster]
Frodo's inner character? I think his long association with Bilbo and the elves, had turned him a little "elvish", which is partly why he could go oversea. He would have enjoyed all the sining and tale telling as much as any elf I think!
But I have a new question. After the WoTR, Frodo on two occasions, experiences returning of pain. The anniversary of Weathertop (Oct 6) and the poisoning buy Shelob (Mar 13). I was wondering exactly why this pain returns? I know it is because the ring is destroyed, but why is it? What difference does the destruction of the ring make?
Frodo is healed by Elrond in Rivendel, presumably because Elrond used his ring Vilya to help save his life. When the one was destroyed, Vilya's power was lost and so everything that was done with it started to fade. Including things / persons healed with it, evidently. This makes sense to me anyway.
The part that doesn't add up is Shelob's poisoning. It seems that Frodo more or less got better by himself, the One not conferring healing powers presumably. (Or did it?) Why then did the anniversary of Shelob's poisoning bring Frodo pain? since it does not appear to be related to the ring (or any ring for that matter)? Or is there some other explanation?
I think the healing powers using the rings of power is a good explanation. One could also assume that anyone else healed with the power of a ring would also experience the anniversal return of pain.
the anniversay pain is one of the post-trauma symptoms or something- in some paper i read...
anyway, on a completely different topic, imagine my surprise when i was talking to one of my english teachers when she confessed that she had been a LOTR fan since its publication! apparently she had always admired 'professor tolkien' during her oxford days and even went to the front of his house, though *giggle* it was "as near as [she] ever got to him."
its so nice to meet someone (in real life) who is as passionate about LOTR as i am and much more knowledgeable!
My Dutch teacher happened to be a Tolkien fan too. But he didn't even go to see the film, so you can't call him a freak.
Did Frodo actually relive the pains of Shelob, Alyssa? I seem to have missed that. I remember him suffering from excruciating pains on 6 October (Weathertop) but I don't remember 13 March. I didn't even know Tolkien mentioned the date of the poisoning by Shelob... :o:
From a few pages into Chapter 9 entitled 'The Grey Havens' of Book 6 in ROTK.
So he (Sam, being out doing his forestry work) was not at home in early March and did not know that Frodo had been ill. On the thirteenth of that month Farmer Cotton found Frodo lying on his bed; he was clutching a white gem that hung on a chain about his neck and he seemed half in a dream.
'It is gone forever.' he said. 'and now all is dark and empty.'
But the fit passed, and when Sam got back on the twenty-fifth, Frodo had recovered, and he said nothing about himself.
And from about half way through Chapter 9 entitled 'The Grey Havens' of Book 6 in ROTK.
One evening Sam came into the study and found his master looking very strange. He was very pale and his eyes seemed to see things far away.
'What's the matter, Mr. Frodo?' said Sam.
'I am wounded,' he answered. 'wounded; it will never really heal.'
But then he got up and it seemed to pass, and he was quite himself the next day. It was not until afterwards that Sam recalled that the date was October the sixth. Two years before on that day it was dark in the dell under Weathertop.
Time went on, and 1421 came in. Frodo was ill again in March, but with a great effort he concealed it, for Sam had other things to think about. The first of Sam and Rosie's children was born on the twenty-fifth of March, a date that Sam noted.
And from Appendix B of ROTK
12 Gollum leads Frodo into Shelob's Lair. .....
13 Frodo captured by the Orcs of Cirith Ungol. .....
Must read that book again, I think... I seem to miss all the details...
The point is that I don't remember them...
Your welcome Tommy.
I didn't think you *had* to read appendixes.... seems like having to read the "entire dictionary" to understand a single word. This... another flaw in the revered Tolkien's writing, IMO
Problem is that I only possess the one-volume edition of LOTR, and in the library they have ROTK, but without appendices (don't ask me how it's possible, I don't know either but I checked and was astonished but I came to this conclusion).
I would like to read them.
I was thinking about the chapter when the hobbits get back to the Shire. And somehow Frodo's reaction made me think about that movie 'The Mission'. Don't you think there is some similarity between Fordo's reaction and the reaction of that priest in The Mission? It's just a thought really.
I'm not familiar with the movie...could you tell what it's about?
I remember the movie 'The Mission' but only that it ended sadly, I think because the powers that be (the church hierarchy) couldn't care less about the natives' well being. And that isn't nearly enough remembering to respond to your question, sorry Gnampie.
The Mission is a movie from 1986 with Robert De Niro and Jeremy Irons. It tells the true story of Jesuit missionaries in South America in the 18th century. Spain and Portugal are competing to colonize South America. Robert De Niro plays a slave trader and colonial imperialist. He finds out his girlfriend is in love with his brother and kills his brother. As penance for this he joins a Jesuit missionary (Jeremy Irons) to his mission. He reforms and becomes a Jesuit missionary himself. Missionary Irons wants to create a world where natives and colonist could peacefully live together, learning from each other. He teaches the natives to make flutes and play music. All goes well until Spain and Portugal come to an agreement and exchange land for slaves (if I remember well). The mission is in danger. Soldiers are coming to lead the natives in to slavery. Both missionaries want to save and protect the natives. Missionary De Niro wants to make arms and teach the natives to defend themselves. Missionary Irons hates violence and killing and hopes to save the natives by showing they are good Christians who can sing, play music, build churches, hoping the Church would choose his side. The Church is also corrupted by the promise of power and money and doesnt care about his mission. So finally missionary De Niro tries to defend the mission by arming the men and fight back. Missionary Irons stays with the women and the children behind the wooden walls of the mission and they keep on singing and praying till the end. Eventually they all get killed or taken prison as slaves, except for a couple of children that can escape. This scene on the end where Jeremy Irons meets the soldiers with all these women and children behind him, singing, going forward slowly but determent, very calm and peaceful, facing death is breathtaking. (the way Frodo reacts when he returns to the Shire made me think about this last scene and missionary Irons who didn't want to hurt anyone else, even if it meant getting killed himself)
Yes, that was the movie I remembered, and described the whole of that memory in just one sentence.
Your synopsis was very good Gnampie.
Frodo was tired of the killing, even though he had actually witnessed only the skirmish in Moria. So what he was really tired of was the inhumanity of creatures toward other creatures--and here I include all sentient creatures under the term "humanity" rather than just man. However, Frodo wasn't ready to unnecessarily give in to the scoundrels just to protect hobbit lives, as is apparent when he said:
I wish for no killing; not even the ruffians, unless it must be done to prevent them from hurting hobbits.
Still, he did refrain from personally taking part in the battle and probably wasn't even wearing a sword, having previously given 'Sting' to Sam and probably wouldn't have lifted a hand to protect himself. Besides, Sam would have continued serving in that function.
Ah! Yes, I was referring to you, gnampie, hoping you would come here and get the discussion going.
No hard feelings whatsoever, mind you. It's good that we all have other opinions, otherwise this forum would get
You're right again, Eryan, and I'm with you here again.
It would have been a beautiful ending, of course.
I have a feeling that Frodo pitied everybody, even the ruffians, even the worst villains, because he himself did his best to resist the power of the Ring... and yet in the end he failed. The whole quest was saved only because Gollum was there.
I think that too, but some people here don't.
So I think we got another discussion coming up.
Fine, fine, it will do us good!
Now I definitely have to rent the Missionary, gnampie. Sounds brilliant.
Eryan/Tommy - I think that Frodo changed long before Gollum fell into Mt. doom. Remember when he & Sam captured Gollum and said, "Gandalf, now I see him, and now I pity him/or understand" or something like that. Can't remember the exact line.
From then on he became more mature, sensitive and much, much wiser.
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Yes, absolutely with you there golly, but the actual discussion I guess, will be whether Frodo would have thrown the Ring (or maybe himself and the Ring?) into the fire if Gollum hadn't been there to take it from him. I don't think he would have, because the Ring had finally succeeded in taking over Frodo's mind in the end. And apparently Eryan is with me here, but not everyone is.