Thread: Samwise Gamgee
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Sam's far too much of a stereotype for my liking. And I think he's a closet.
not again the whole ranting about sam if he is or isn't
but i would also like to think so that he is
the only good parts with sam are when he is talking to gollum
I can't ever decide about Sam...sometimes he's great (like in the beginning, and when he helps Frodo and kills Shelob and all) but other times he just bugs me.
Point of Info: Sam didn't kill Ungoliant's daughter, just muchly wounded her pride as well caused her great bodily pain with that Elven pin-prick, that Bilbo named, 'Sting'. She crawled back to her hidey hole and nobody has heard of her since, at least to spread the tale. *teacher
Still your point is well taken.
I can't stand Sam. Narrow minded, common little git - like his father. Wish both of them would fall into Mt. Doom.
Agree with Boring, the only good Sam parts in LOTR was when he was talking to Gollum.
Yep, you're right Golly he's an irritating holier-than-thou tosser most of the time. But I like his Ouliphant poem.
I liked Sam.
My only problem with film Sam was that he was wy too visually appealing. In the books he is frequently reminded by others (Merry, Pippin, Faramir) that he is rather ugly.
Still I guess that's Hollywood..
Personally, i thought Tolkien's portrayal of Sam as the loyal servant/side kick thing was a little too archaic for my liking..
But, Sam, by the end of the book, seems to have gotten the better end of the bargain. He stuck with Frodo untill the very end, got to even take around the ring for a while, basked in enough glory to make him legend...comes back to the Shire to marry the girl of his dreams, Rosie!
he gets to have his cake and eat it too!
and poor old Frodo....
"I tried to save the Shire, and it has been saved, but not for me. It must often be so, Sam, when things are in danger one has to give them up, lose them, so others might keep them."
I never thought of it like that Rosie, that's heartbreaking!
And Alyssa, Sean Astin is far from visually appealing, seriously, I'm worried about you
He's a porky little git, and wasn't he the fat kid from the Goonies? And once again I'm going to bring up the fact that he can't do a westcountry accent for s**t, and lapses into full Yankee when things get exciting.
Isn't he the best? I love Pippin, he's just so energetic. But when it comes to hobbits, I'd rather be with Samwise Gamgee than an of the others, including Bilbo. Don't you agree?
I don't like Sam at all! He just seems to be the steriotypical sidekick, he's the only charicter I didn't like. As for Bilbo, hes kinda cool, especialy when hi goes all Gollumish :P
the only good parts with sam are when he is talking to gollum
I don't like the way he acted towards Gollum (one of my fave charicters). But I liked it when he pops up in the film...I actualy thought he was kinda cute, reminded me of my cat!
[Edited on 8/1/2002 by Halo_Black]
No-one's got around to giving Gollum a thread yet, you could always start one!
I like Sam too somehow. He's just a nice character, I mean the way he is discovered by Gandalf for 'eaves-dropping'!
But he's also one of the poorer folk amongst the hobbits. I mean, what do Merry and Pippin and Frodo do for a living? They don't have to work as far as I know. Sam is the son of a gardener, is one himself as a matter of fact, and he's a plain, common, ordinary hobbit. Not a coureagous guy, but when he has to be, he is. And for his master Frodo, who is more his friend than his master, he'll do almost anything. Loyalty, I mean, real loyalty, is sth you need in a story like this. And here, Sam portrays it. Rather well, as a matter of fact.
Plus there's the fact that he gets the last line. (subtle hint)
I think Sam's attitude to Gollum is meant to reflect the xenophobic aversion the English working class had to foreigners in Tolkien's time, perhaps?
And this of course is meant to contrast with Frodo's more 'gracious' attitude to Gollum, Frodo being a more educated middle-class hobbit that he is.
Boo hoo, sob story. Doesn't work, Tommy, he's still a git.
Yeah, Halo. I don't like the way he treated Gollum either (my favourite LoTR character), but their scenes together were quite funny. Especially the bit when he made Gollum look for rabbits "..and Sam'll put his head in it, yes, precious." Almost liked him then. But he *was* mean to Gollum most of the time though - unlike Frodo, who had a lot more class.
[Edited on 10/1/2002 by Ungoliant]
Bloody foreigners! Mutter....mumble..mutter...
Excellent comments Rosie!
Plastic Squirrel: when I said that Sam was visually appealing, I did not mean that in a sexy or macho way, I ment that he has a sweet and gentle look with that fluffy blonde hair, and innocent smile. And he has grown up a little since The Goonies.
My impression of Sam in the book was that he was singularly unattractive, to the point that others pitied him.
I like PJs Sam. I think he has improved the character for me.
You certainly deserve one! At least someone who's with me here! You were the last I expected to join my side, Golly, but you're more than welcome!
And I think you're right. A servant, paid employee, I mean, would just make a runner at the edges of Mordor. Or even before. The fact that Sammy didn't, proved that he's a true friend and loyal helper.
of course Sam wasn't just a hired help! he was the faithful servant. an idea that i find rather appalling, by today's standards. but it shows that Sam had loyalty and guts.
I totally agree, I love sam! hes like a little puppy!! my favorite part of the movie was when sam swam out and vowed to froto that he would stick by his side.
You can both have a Pseudo-Silmarillion, cause I'm being nice today.
Yeah, he's just like a little Puppy, you could kick him for a week and not get bored
hes a good friend and you know it.
he's a good friend, but I think if he were a real person and a friend of mine, he might get on my nerves. Personally, I might be a little creeped out if someone was that devoted to me.
I think, though, for in the story, he was great. I mean, you have to give him credit for giving up everything in the world to go on this journey that he didn't know if he'd even come back from.
yeah, Sam was a little too devoted. especially towards the end, all that 'i love you master' crap. seems too simplistic and kinda stoopid.
Absolutely, if I was Frodo, I'd have kicked Sam into the cracks of Doom and kept Gollum.
You'd trade a sweet, devoted, talented gardener for a weird, slimy, fish-eating guy? Roses aren't easy to grow, you know.
Sam is a bit simple, I'll grant you, but hobbits in general aren't that complex and he is lower class and uneducated. I love my friends but I don't think I'd follow them up to the mouth of hell to destroy evil jewelry, and I doubt they'd follow me. I'm not sure I'd want them to, to be honest, but Frodo doesn't seem to mind. What was my point? Oh yeah, Sam's sweet!
Sam is like most hobbits, just plain good. That is why Gandalf loved the hobbits so much. They are all, by nature, simple folk - but when called up on to do extrodinatry things, they can do it. Sam is not a puppy or dog, who develops loyalty because they are fed or intimidated... He liked Bilbo and he liked Frodo. Once he made an oath he kept it. He promised to help get the ring to Mordor, and even when given the opportunity to turn back, he didn't. He was dedicated to the quest even when he thought Frodo was gone. Tolkien used hobbits to symbolize the Northern people of England. The simple folk everyone depends on once the diplomacy turns into action. They are dependable, loyal and bound to duty. They expect nothing for their service. They do what they must because they know it is right. Tolkien's affection for these people is reflected in his treatment of the hobbits. The ring could have never made it to Mt. Doom without Sam. He is as dependable and loyal as hobbits get.
sure dependable and loyal, but not too interesting and a little creepy.
poor Sam, he does not have nearly as many fans around here as Gollum does. If he knew, i think he would have a cardiac arrest.
Sam is a good Boy Scout; knows where his towel is too.
right on swampfaye!! i agree 100 percent!
He's no hoopy frood! If he really knew where his towel was he would have stayed home
I think I can rightly make the arguement that Sam is *more good* than Frodo. He wasn't nearly so reluctant to give up the ring as either Frodo or Bilbo and made up his mind that the ring was only offering him illusions. Doesn't this make him, in many ways, stronger than the other ring bearers? He is so under rated, my poor Samwise... Nothings worse than always being right and always being ignored...
i don't think sam was more 'good' than Frodo. It's just that his situation in life (a small-time gardner) and his up-bringing (working class) may have contributed to Sam's rejection of the illusions the Ring offered. He was grounded and humble and such visions of grandiose did not appeal to him.
Don't feel sorry for Sam, he does very well in the book! Inherits Bag End, gets promoted to 'middle class', marries Rosie and has billions of kids and lives happily ever after.
Sam also served as Mayor from 1427-76 S.R., having been elected to seven, seven year terms. So it seems that someone liked him, as he was far too honest for graft to have gotten him there.
King Elessar also appointed Sam as one of the 'Counsellors of the North-kingdom' in 1434 S.R., which probably entailed an annual stipend and probably placed him into the upper class. When, in 1436 S.R., the King honored Sam with the 'Star of the Dunedain' (which I assume was a knighthood) , I think we can say he had arrived there for sure.
I think in many ways, Sam is the real hero of the quest.
I think what Tolkien was mostly on about was that the small and the meek can achieve miracles while the great and powerful falter. Sam epitomises this, but so does Frodo.
Sam also represents love. Pure, unconditional love. It is his love for his master, (more than just dog-like)that literally carries Frodo through the immense task of getting to the cracks of doom. The ring would have exhausted Frodo alone..
.I bet that is a contingency Sauron never thought of, another person carrying the ringbearer when the rings resistance to being destroyed became overwhelming. But then, Sauron did not understand love did he?
So, does love indeed conquer all?
LOTR is rather complex in its politics, isn't it? there's all that stuff about kings and descendents of the ancient line and etc and on the other hand, there's the ordinary man becoming the hero against overwhelming odds. it rejects empire building yet promotes kingship and at the same time advocates certain capitalist values like free association of diverse states! it's very masculine yet hardly male chauvenistic. it's not a 'serious' fiction yet has depth. a truly post-modern take on the traditional epic/fantasy or whatever it is. it's not exactly homogeonous but isn't paralogistic either. so is it an invention?
very hard to pigeon hole.
This is the point where Sam would come in and say "you think too much Rosie!"
I only meant Sam doesn't get the respect he's due from readers, not from Tolkien himself (or the people of Middle Earth, for that matter). I can only offer the comments here as evidence!
I think some of the readers that can't stand Sam (I'm one of 'em) are turned off by his intolerance. True, his upbringing & background may have contributed to his narrow-mindedness, and he *was* nice & loyal to his friends (and we Sam-haters should bear that in mind before damning him) but... I... just... can't ...stand ...him! :P I guess he bears a whiff of all the bigots and xenophobes that I've run into in the past...after all, they're always nice, normal people according to their family/friends.
Hear Hear! It's no surprise that Sam always gets a westcountry accent in dramatisations is it?
I can't say I fault Sam for not being able to forgive Gollum...I don't know how far I would trust Gollum if I had to travel with him...
but remember the scene where Gollum comes back in Cirith Ungol after telling Selob that her food is here, Gollum nearly relents out of perhaps the gratitude that Frodo showed him, but then Sam comes along and yells at him and makes Gollum well, not relent. (a word block)
ok, so maybe it wasn't forgiveness but at least it was pity and compassion. Frodo again displays these attributes when he deals with Saruman and Wormtongue at Bag End. He seems to have achieved a more 'elevated' state of moral awareness.
I think you may be confusing compassion for the fact that Frodo was just plain tired of the quest. He also wants no more of killing, though he was never really much surrounded by killing himself, only the evidence of... And remember that Frodo wasn't going to have to deal with Saruman if he decided to return and make trouble for the hobbits. It was Pippin, Merry and Sam who would have to deal with all further troubles. Don't forget that it was Frodo who said it was a pitty Bilbo didn't kill Gollum, and when given the opportunity Sam didn't kill Gollum but showed that "compassion" you bestow so readily on Frodo. Sam never called for the death of anyone, not even Saruman, though he understood that his shire would be in danger so long as he was around. There is such a thing as self defense and acting in the best interest of "the many".
Westcountry and Welsh!!!!!!!! :o
Unforgiveable. we down here in the westcountry are very often overlooked as an embarrassment to the UK. Nobody ever gets given a westcountry accent in a movie unless they're meant to be really stupid. (Luckily I'm not actually from down here, so I lack the genuine Oo-Arr in my own accent) But it is the genuine oo-arr farmer Goiles voice that is so parallel to the US deep south "Squeal, Piggy, squeal!!" inbred, sheep s**gging types. Very much not welsh at all though.
my apologies plastic... but you must forgive me since I'm sure you can't tell a Texas Accent from a Cajun Accent.. but we all can here in Texas
Yeah, westcountry's right Plastic. And deep south-redneck-hick town thing if he was American.
Yes, Frodo said early in FoTR that it was a pity Bilbo didn't kill Gollum, but in TTT he did say, "I see him now, and I pity him."
And the reason why Frodo showed compassion & mercy to Saruman & Wormtongue wasn't because he thought he wouldn't be around to deal with the consequences. That would be a selfish and spiteful thing to do, and is totally unlike Frodo. He did it because he had class - and unlike Sam, he could see beyond his 'own kind'.
i know that Frodo said it was a pity Bilbo didn't kill Gollim. But that was at the beginning of the book and was meant to show how Frodo grows and understands what Gandalf says- something like many that live deserve death and some that die deserve life...etc etc.
It doesn't seem fair to blame Sam for being race specific (worried over hobbit affairs) when each race in ME was just the same. The high and mighty Elves were even leaving ME because men were comming into their own.
Think I'll leave you ladies to fight this one out. You're right Faye, I couldn't tell Texas from Cajun, I don't think. Though I think there's more of a y'all drawl in Texas than Cajun? Perhaps?
perhaps it's just a question of evolutiona nd natural selection?
they occupied ME long enough and they just got sick of all the b*tchcakes.
and well, if you want to get technical, and consider 'elves' as another 'race' in middle earth than certainly everyone was a racist because they all agreed that elves were far superior than any mortal.
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It's not just that Rosie. The Valar had summoned the Elves to return into the West after the Great Battle (War of Wrath) - and almost all left ME, except for the ones you read about in Hobbit & LotR. I won't give any spoilers since you may not have read Silm yet, but one of the passages said:
And such few as were left of the three houses of the Elf-friends, Fathers of Men, fought upon the part of the Valar; and they were avenged in those days for Baragund and Barahir, Galdor and Gundor, Huor and Hurin, and many of their lords. But a greater part of the sons of Men, whether of the people of Uldor or others new-come out of the east, marched with the Enemy; and the Elves do not forget it.