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Thread: an outstanding coincidence. . . READ THIS!!!

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Tar-Aldarion began this thread with the following post

Quote:
Have you notice that almost all characters in Tolkien's world who have the letter T as their first letter in their name, (surnames included) have suffered various degrees of unluckiness??! Here they are:

Turin: Lost his love, his friends, his family and his sanity.
Turgon: Was betrayed and was destroyed along with his glorious kingdom.
Thranduil: Was assaulted three times by Sauron, but held on.
Thingol: Lost his beautiful daughter, and was killed because of the Nauglafring.
Luthien Tinuviel: Lost her immortality, and her love.
Hurin Thalion: Lost his trust of Men and Elves, lost his family and his former glory.
Elros Tar-Minyatur: His people were corrupted by Sauron and his kingdom fell into ruin.
Theoden: Untimely slain by the Witch-King.
Thror II: Tried to seek his fortune in Moria but was killed by Azog.
Thrain II: Lost his Ring and died a miserable death in Sauron's dungeons.
Thorin Oakenshield: Did not live long enough to taste the fruits of his labours.

At least Thorondor and Tulkas were spared. Is there something I missed?


Raptor replied

tar-Aldarion,perhaps? Big Smile Smilie Sorry,hope you don't mind.Strange thing,though-you might be quite right...
Tuor lost his father before being born, then lost his mother who abandoned him, then became a thrall of Easterlings, then he lost his now home in Gondolin...
But I think that every, every life, both in ME and in this here world, must have its share of grief. We cannot win all our battles, we cannot save all!
Quote:
How do you guys manage to catch all these things?? do you all read the books over and over?
Well actually Ringfacwen, we do. The first few reads are merely for the pure enjoyment of the stories; our later reads are to find all the little things that we missed before and that now make even more sense, given what we have also read in Tolkien's other books, and what our friends here at Planet-Tolkien have shared with us. Cool Elf Smilie
MORE!!!!

Tuor: Was orphaned at an early age and was made into a slve by the Easterlings.
Tar-Miriel: Her place to the throne was robbed from her by her cousin, Ar-Pharazon.
Tharku (Gandalf): Was killed by the balrog and betrayed by Saruman. (well at least he prevailed in the end)
Thu (Sauron): Was corrupted by Morgoth and was defeated in the War of the Ring.

Yes Ringfacwen, I read the books a lot of times to see those.
I already named Tuor, Tar-Aldarion, and I will now add Theodred, son of Theoden - killed during the battle of the Fords of Isen!
But the same list may be made for other letters, for instance for S:
Saruman - got defeated and finally killed by Wormtongue
Sauron - defeated
Saeros - died when escaping from Turin
Stonehelm (Thorin) - killed durintg the Battle of the Five Armies
Sam Gamgee - was torn between his family and his best friend Frodo

And many of the heroes listed by you can be called winners, after all!
Hurin Thalion - was honoured among Men and Elves
Turin - slew the dragon and won the everlasting fame
Tuor - was happy in his marriage with Idril and was joined to the Firstborn, to live in joy in Valinor with his Elven friends
Theoden - played an important role in the saving of Minas Tirith and won great renown

and so on, so on...
So, I am afraid that there is no clear correlation between the letter starting the name and the fate of the hero! Wink Smilie

[Edited on 17/11/2002 by Eryan]
Hey, Ringfacwen.

Well, I've only read LOTR 4 or 5 times, The Hobbit 8 times and the Silmarillion 1 1/2 times, but I've listened to the really fantastic BBC LOTR BBC Radio play 12+ times and while it is abridged it's very well done and doesn't add or change anything beyond music and some ommisions of text (though it does completely omit Tom Bombadil and Ghan-buri-Ghan). It's very well done with the voices of 25 British actors, Music and Sound effects. And Ian Holm, the actor that plays Bilbo in the new movies, is the voice of Frodo. I heartily endorse it for listening pleasure.

Myself, I love to run role playing games and I sometimes run a Middle Earth campaign. As a GameMaster, I feel responsible for knowing the text intimately. I also like to write and Tolkien's world and style are my favorites. So, I have persued purchased many books and books on CD that analyze Tolkien's text and Tolkien himself and actually study his works and those things analyzing them from an academic POV, making notes and making personal connections with his points. If his work ends up pulling you so, as it has with so many of us, you too can go down that path and achieve a place among the Wise. Cool Smilie Heh!

Now, about this T name thing... I see what is being said but I don't agree. I think incuding any name with Tar- is erroneous as it is a title that many hold. T is a very common use letter in our language and also Tolkien's languages and 2 of the main characters that go though suffering, loss and tragey are Samwise Gamgee and Frodo Baggins. No Ts in those names. And Frodo goes through incredible loss and suffereing. Starting as a child with his being an orphan all the way to his leaving ME and all that he loves due to weariness and pain. Many other charcters with out T names go through loss and tragedy. I think the concept of coping and enduring loss and tragedy and finding/keeping hope in desperate situations is a main ideal of his works.
I think the answer to this lies with the fact that almost everyone, whatever their name, suffers to some degree in Tolkien's works, particularly if they lived in the First Age. There are very few of his characters who don't have some misfortune at some stage.
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Myself, I love to run role playing games and I sometimes run a Middle Earth campaign
Checkout Roleplaying Guilds, Glorfinel. I spent a long time as a Dungeonmaster myself. Hopefully catch you in there.
In response to Glorfinel, I was wondering what sorts of (outside Tolkien's works) pieces you've read and recomend, from an analyitical standpoint... wow, that totally made sense in my head, but not so much on this page...
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I think the answer to this lies with the fact that almost everyone, whatever their name, suffers to some degree in Tolkien's works, particularly if they lived in the First Age. There are very few of his characters who don't have some misfortune at some stage.
Indeed, there are vary few characters who could make it through one year without suffering some misfortune, for any to make it through 6000 plus years without any would be a miracle. Tom Bombadil is the only one I can think of, and even he probably suffered deep down because the Old Forest was becoming smaller with the passage of time.
What about Treebeard...or did is he already mentioned as one of the names begining in T?
And Treebeard's tragedy was the loss of the Entwives and Entlings. Sad Smilie
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I always thought that was sad, that Treebeard lost the Entwives.


WON'T SOMEBODY PLEASE THINK OF THE ENTLINGS!?! Big Laugh Smilie
Your right though...that is knida sad. Hey has anybody seen the Treebeard action figure yet? IT TALKS! *insert manic giggling here*
I always thought that was sad, that Treebeard lost the Entwives.
You've forgotten Theoden! He died in the war of the ring (Which is pretty much as bad as it can get [besides torture but even that could be argued])
Sorry Faramir, hate to tell you this but Tar-Aldarion mentioned Theoden in the first post...
Quote:
Theoden: Untimely slain by the Witch-King.

Huh? Faramir, put that club down! Please don't hit me for pointing that out! *cringes and runs away to hide* Wink Smilie