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Thread: Arwen And Aragorn, A Once In A Lifetime Love Or Just A Summer Time Adventure?

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Welcome to Planet-Tolkien Arwen_Ringbearer.*Methinks we have something in common* Wink Smilie I hope you get as much enjoyment from this site as I have.

I believe that the relationship between Aragorn and Arwen is a crutial part of the story as she is, in a big way, a motivator for Aragorn to succeed in overcoming The Shadow and fulfilling his birthright as King.
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(Elrond to Aragorn; Appendix A) She shall not be the bride of any Man less than the King of both Gondor and Arnor.

I'm not saying this is the only reason Aragorn wanted to be King, but I'm sure it played a part.

PJ did a very good job of intertwining the stories from the Appendix with the main story from the book. And though many people scorn Arwen's extended role in the movie adaptation, I think PJ kept it at an acceptable level so as not to take away too much from the rest of the book.

The best way I can think of to explain the necessity of Arwen's greater role in the movie is:
The appendices are actually intended to be read and serve to elaborate and enrich the depth of the story; so if one were to say that the 'extra' scenes with Arwen are not really part of the story and should not be in the movie, then I would have to disagree because the events involving Arwen and Aragorn recorded in the Appendix run concurrently with the main story and give us greater insight into Aragorn's character as well as Arwen's. Smoke Smilie

Many of the scenes can be justified with a quote from the Appendix, eg: In FotR when Arwen talks to Aragorn by the shards of Narsil, giving him encouragement "you will face the same evil and you will defeat it"
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(from Appendix A) 'And Arwen said: "Dark is the Shadow, and yet my heart rejoices; for you, Estel(Aragorn), shall be among the great whose valour will destroy it."

In TTT when she appears to Aragorn in a dream and when she kisses him after his near-death in the river:
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and when Aragorn was abroad, from afar she watched over him in thought


I think the main reason why so many guys don't like Arwen featuring so much in the movie is because they are affraid of / or don't understand the concept of true love. I mean it's very different to the kind of love found in teen flicks and putrid, mushy romances. Wink Smilie

As for Galadriel giving Arwen Nenya, it doesn't make sense to me because in the book she takes it with her to the Undying Lands; and now that in the end the One ring is destroyed, all the remaining rings have lost most (if not all) of their power so there would be no point to Arwen receiving Nenya. But that remains to be seen, since Arwen_Ringbearer has some inside info.
Orc Grinning Smilie *this little elf is green with envy*
I believe your 'theorys' are sound, Arwen ringbearer.

Aragorn is in love with a powerful elf princess. She is able to watch over him from afar, and yes, she seems to be healing him.

She will not take ship. That is why Elrond looks so angry as she is leaving. She is going to Aragorn.

Eowyn will find herself another brave and noble man to love. Big Smile Smilie

Just one question: Arwen bearing Nenya? Will Galadriel give it to her, do you think?

Aragorn's ring that he gave to Arwen as an "engagement ring" is the Ring of Barahir - once worn by Finrod Felagund himself. The only thing he owned that was worthy of her.
Galadriel will give to Arwen her kingdom, if you have seen pictures or like me have attended some of the first shoottings for The Return Of The King you would have seen Arwen's outfit. She will get married to Aragorn and doing that she will no longer be a peincess but a queen. Galadriel will be leaving Middle-Earth and she will give to Arwen her crown and Nenya, the Ring Of Adamant. Further more, I don't know about you but Faramir is not really good looking........ wonder why Eowyn loves him...... he is a lot better than many but Aragorn is Always The King. Tongue Smilie Tongue Smilie Tongue Smilie Big Smile Smilie Big Smile Smilie Big Smile Smilie Big Smile Smilie Wink Smilie Wink Smilie Wink Smilie
Welcome to the forum, Arwen_RingBearer.
I agree with most of your posting. Tolkien did, in fact, give us lots of detail about Arwen and Aragorn throughout the LOTR books and in the Appendix. I fail to see why so many people have missed it and claim that her role is minor. Quite the contrary, she plays a very significant part in Iluvatar's plan for Middle Earth.
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First she saves Frodo

PJ's diviance from Tolkien's book by assigning Arwen the task of getting Frodo to Rivendell did not bother me a great deal, although, I would have preferred that Glorfindel was riding with Frodo on Asfaloth. I never did think it made much sense for an injured little hobbit to ride a large horse solo outrunning the Ringwaiths on his way to Rivendell.
I was quite satified with Arwen saving Frodo( as Tolkien intened) by giving him her seat on the ship to the undying lands.

My interpretation of Elrond's apprehensions about Arwen's choice was very similar to how PJ presented them in TTT. Not only did Elrond try to discourage the relationship, but so did Aragorn's mother, Gilraen (ROTK/Appendix)
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In conclusion I believe that all of those that say that the relationship between Aragorn and Arwen is not described, are wrong

I agree that it is described in the book if you read between the lines and the appendix. And as you say, it is difficult to translate this to the screen. I understood it and thought it was done quite well.

.
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I think the main reason why so many guys don't like Arwen featuring so much in the movie is because they are affraid of / or don't understand the concept of true love.


Huh? What? Us guys understand the concept all right,(or at least I do) I never watch those rotten shows for teenagers, and I don't think that they represent real life at all. I liked Arwen in the movie, I didn't mind the changes with her at all.
Good for you Stonehelm Happy Elf Smilie

Don't feel offended - I was just making a very broad generalisation. Tigger Smilie
No offence at all Arwen*Evenstar* Wink Smilie
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I think the main reason why so many guys don't like Arwen featuring so much in the movie is because they are affraid of / or don't understand the concept of true love


I understood as well I just think it sucked that the Pj Book Butcherer, decided to try and fix what wasn't broke.

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As for Galadriel giving Arwen Nenya, it doesn't make sense to me because in the book she takes it with her to the Undying Lands; and now that in the end the One ring is destroyed, all the remaining rings have lost most (if not all) of their power so there would be no point to Arwen receiving Nenya.


Well said.

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I agree that it is described in the book if you read between the lines and the appendix


Yup!
Arwen_RingBearer and Arwen*Evenstar*, you 2 need to check the post of the week. Congrats ladies!!! Exclamation Smilie Exclamation Smilie Exclamation Smilie
I absolutely think that Arwen and Aragorn are soulmates!!!! I think that they have a love that transends time itself.

I agree with you 100% Arwen Ringbearer!!!!


As for Galadriel giving Arwen Nenya I think that even though it's power is diminished it could still be a keepsake from grandmother to granddaughter; or it could be Galadriel's wedding present to Arwen; or it could be an heirloom; or all three.
( Personally I think that it's all three.)

[Edited on 15/8/2003 by moonstar]
I do not think anything of the TTT, because it is not true. I do not like how they put arewn in the TTT. It made me mad cause they are my favorite characters.
I just di not like the TTT movie at all.

~Irima-arwen
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I do not think anything of the TTT, because it is not true. I do not like how they put arewn in the TTT. It made me mad cause they are my favorite characters.
I just di not like the TTT movie at all.


Well, I understand how you feel but I don't really agree. PJ had to build up Arwen somehow in the films. Aragorn couldn't just marry some strange chick in the end that no one knew of!

Tolkienites who saw the movies would understand Aragorn's marriage, but what of those that had never read the book? They would not have any idea who Arwen is.
Arwen do you think Viggo Mortenson is hot?
of course he is. silly question. Wink Smilie
coughcoughcoughcoughcoughhackahckhackcoughcough!!!!

He is not!
Cool, girls fighting on the net. Very Evil Smilie
I wasn't fighting, i was simply educating some girls who don't seem to accept the truth that Viggo Mortensen is not hot. i would know. I'm almost a teen. And Orlando Bloom isn't hot, and neither is Leonardo DiCaprio, and neither is any of those ones that girls swoon over..... Hugh Grant is good-looking, but not HOT......

You know, some girls need to get a grip. But we aren't fighting on the net. We're just expresing our different views.
I think if PJ would have introduced Arwen in Rivendell instead of sneaking up on the #1 Dunedain Ranger in the wild, she would not have caught so much flack.
I definetly think they were truly in love. You wouldn't just give up your immortality to be with someone you kinda "like". Also, they were seperated from eachother for long periods of time and still were in love with eachother each day. And the fact that she waited around for him while her father was telling her he was probably dead shows her love for him. Eowyn on the other hand was just attracted to his manliness (who wouldn't be?). I don't feel she got to know Aragorn that well. Just face it Eowyn you just wanted to get in his pants sorry if I'm getting a little x-rated for you guys. Anyways theirs my input and it's probably like said that done that. I'm always one pace behind! hehe
I've said this before: increasing Arwen's role for the movies is absolutely true to the book, even if some of the details (most notably, giving her Glorfindel' s role in the FOTR) are not. Not only is much of it in Appendix A (correctly noted and nicely interpreted by Arwen Evenstar - I hadn't noticed how much the movies developed lines in the appendix), not only is the A/A relationship a crucial subtext that the movie would have to spell out, but Tolkien himslef stated in a letter that the one part of the appendices he wished he had incorporated into the main tale was the part about the A/A romance.

I believe Aragorn is incomprehensible without realizing what the events mean to him. Everything he has waited for his whole life is on the line.

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Just face it Eowyn you just wanted to get in his pants

Hey, lighten up on Eowyn. Remember her circumstances: she is a great woman (as we find out) locked into a desperate and demeaning situation. Suddenly A appears, whom she with keen insight realizes is a great man, bringing help to her and her people. Why shouldn't she fall in love with him? She knew nothing of Arwen. Maybe she was a bit naive to think that a man such as Aragorn wouldn't have someone in his life, but she is also young.
I think they really must love each other. Arwen decided to leave her people, give up her immortality and stay in ME for Aragorn, and in my opinion the fact that he would have let her go is also an evidence for his love.
Personally I have to confess I somehow like ╚owyn more than Arwen. (The reason therefor is that a friend of mine told me how wonderful and nice ╚owyn is before I knew LotR myself, and she influenced me that much that I still prefer ╚owyn somehow... weird.) And I think that ╚owyn and Aragorn would have made a lovely couple in the movies, they fit together better than Aragorn and Arwen - considering the way they look like together.
In truth, one of the things I didn't like about the movies (aside from Arwen replacing both Glorfindel AND her father at the Ford of Bruinen, since it was Elronds Ring that brought the flood, with some gilt from Gandalf) was the implied attraction between Aragorn and Eowyn in the movie. In the book, Aragorn makes quite clear to Eowyn that there can never be anything romantic between them since a) odds are he dies in the War of the Ring and b) on the off chance he doesn't his heart still belongs to Arwen, and she will be his queen. Aragorn being Aragorn would never encourage Eowyns hopeless fantasy, and do all he could to discourage it (as he does in the books.)

It was more than mere "manliness" that attracted Eowyn; there were plenty of "manly" men in Rohan. This was just one facet of something grander and more noble she perceived in Aragorn: In Aragorn the blood of the Lords of Numenor ran nearly true, and she found this vision out of the Elder Days irresistable. Which, of course, explains how she wound up with Faramir (another beef I had with the movie, as Faramir behaved in much the same way as Boromir there, while in the books he had no thought of siezing the Ring he divined Frodo bore, a remarkable statement on his character, all things considered.)

Yes, Arwen was essential to Aragorns fate as the kind of additional motivator earlier suggested. All of that said, while Arwen and Aragorn may have been a "once in a lifetime" thing in the strictest sense, they were ultimately but an echo of Beren and Luthien and, to a lesser degree, Tuor and Idril, a fitting conclusion to the tale of the mingling of the lords of the Eldar and the Edain begun by those First Age legends.

The Three Elven Rings of Power went into the West together, and the Elessar was a far more significant heirloom of Galadriel than Nenya.
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The Three Elven Rings of Power went into the West together, and the Elessar was a far more significant heirloom of Galadriel than Nenya.
As was Aragorn's Ring of Barahir, which had originally belonged to Galadriel's brother, Finrod Felagund. He gave it to Barahir, the father of Beren, for rescuing him. This ring was passed down father-to-son and eventually became the heirloom of the House of Isuldur.
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In truth, one of the things I didn't like about the movies (aside from Arwen replacing both Glorfindel AND her father at the Ford of Bruinen, since it was Elronds Ring that brought the flood, with some gilt from Gandalf) was the implied attraction between Aragorn and Eowyn in the movie.

This is deffinetely (how do you spell that word??? somebody PM me!) true, although the attraction seemed to come from ╔owyn only - Aragorn didn't seem to care about her and her feelings at all, until in ROTK he suddenly said to her (out of the blue, of course) that she apparently only loved a vision. It would've been funny, had it not been LOTR. The way PJ treated it, it looked like ╔owyn just ran off to the battle because she was angry she got dumped, without anything more to it.

Ppl complain about the crappy romance in the Star Wars prequels, but it's really not worse than in the LOTR movies.

Anyway, the thing that bothers me mostly is that in TTT we see that Aragorn sends Arwen away (yes, it's perfectly logical that someone would just dump the likeness of L˙thien, the most beautiful and noble woman in Middle-Earth - although Ms Tyler is nothing like that, so maybe PJ has a point) to the Grey Havens, doing the "it's just a dream" speech and informs ╔owyn of his amorous escapades on their way to Helm's Deep, but then suddenly in ROTK Arwen's back again and they're a happy couple again? Eh ?

Of course, nobody noticed this, because they were all so in awe of Legolamb's stunts and Frodo's eyerolling, but still it's a bit awkward.

Not to mention, what is Arwen doing at the Ford of Bruinen ? We all know that part goes into anything Tolkien, but even so, it doesn't make sense at all. After the Nazgűl are splashed away, she suddenly starts weeping because Frodo is a bit sick, although she doesn't even know the Halfling... if she's that sensitive, then why did Elrond send her, i wonder. If it were me, i'd rush to Rivendell as fast as possible, instead of wasting time with mourning.

And i won't even mention the fact that Arwen was suddenly dying in ROTK, because "the life of the Eldar is leaving her". O-K.

PJ could've perfectly introduced Arwen like in the books : at the feast in Rivendell, and/or in the Hall of Fire. Or he could have done a flashback of Aragorn and Arwen meeting in Rivendell, like in the Appendices. The reason he didn't, is of course because he chose to turn LOTR into an action movie. Booooooooooo.
The impression I got in the books was that Eowyn was less succcessful in hiding her feeling than she thought, or maybe those around her were too perceptive. The way I recall it he was tactfully silent on the whole issue until she forced the issue then made it clear where he stood. The movie version seemed like "Well, I'm gonna die anyway, may as well have some fun first." Not very Aragorn-like. Or Tolkien.

I'm totally with you on Liv Tyler as Arwen, btw; when I heard she had the role I almost had to buy a new TV. About the only Elf I liked was Elrond, the more surprising since it was Agent Smith. I was livid when I heard say on Letterman that she knew some "Elvish" (there is no "Elvish," Quenya or Sindarin,) but have since noticed it's a common oversimplification. No way she should be at Bruinen regardless; Glorfindel earned an onscreen appearance before Arwen (or her father) was born. I thought Jackson did do a brief flashback to Appendix A though, but I don't really know as the films were something I only endured once out of obligation and years of impatience. He got all the hard parts right and blew the story. Unbelievable.
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I think they really must love each other. Arwen decided to leave her people, give up her immortality and stay in ME for Aragorn, and in my opinion the fact that he would have let her go is also an evidence for his love.

However, Arwen did not give up her immortality by marrying Aragorn and living with him for 120 years. She only made her definite choice after Aragorn died -- there she still had the chance of going into the West unto one of the last Ships of Mithlond, and carry the love she shared with Aragorn into the Undying Lands, where it would remain a joyous memory forever, but nothing more.

Yet, she refused and just like L˙thien, she lived up to her choice to the fullest, by leaving the boundaries of Arda and joining Aragorn's spirit to Eru's Halls.

Anyway, to me it always seemed a bit overdramatic that immediately after Aragorn's death, Arwen went to Lothlorien and whilted and died like an untended, delicate orchid. It seems that Aragorn was the only thing in her life and after he fell away, she felt that she had nothing to live for anymore - which wasn't true, as she had a son and five daughers, and undoubtedly many friends in the city of Minas Tirith.

Or maybe in her wisdom Arwen immediately wanted to join their fates together, and die in a noble way, instead of clinging to life for some more years and die of old age.
When I first read about Arwen's unconsoleable grief after Aragorn chooses to die at a propitious moment.... I thought a) Gee, Aragorn could have chosen to stick around a few more years, help his wife and the love of his long life over her issues with death? .... then of course I realized he probably had tried, and finally decided, 'here's the moment' -- not wanting to keep his son from reigning nor wanting to cause Arwen more grief by losing his memory, eyesight, hearing, mobility, & etc., before death....

b) Why can't Arwen grieve, and then move on with life, comforting her children, and being comforted by them, etc., etc.? But then I considered her background: Though she's known Aragorn for over a hundred years, this is "but a season" to her -- she's lived her whole (thousands of years!) of life before meeting him within the elvish frame of mind. that is to say -- EVERYONE she knows and loves as family, she probably grew up expecting to be with FOREVER -- even those who leave on the ships headed West aren't dying -- they will all go, and meet up again in Valinor in "a little while". She's given up all of that to be with Aragorn; and now he is gone. She's never had to deal with the death of a family member from old age. What else can she do but grieve and give up her life doing it? It seems to be the only chance she has of following him into "human" death instead of the elvish re-incarnation/halls of mandos bit. She is only one-quarter human, and culturally, she's 100% Elf. Also -- what would happen if she was able to deal with the grief? Would she not outlive her children, and their children, and -- this would multiply her grief; being the lone elf (albeit a queen) among the peoples of the world, all her elf-kindred gone West, all her children and grandchildren and their children ever more and more human, each generation with a shorter life-span....

This also puts a kinder light on Elrond's attempts to discourage the A/A union. He knows, of course, the grief of losing a family member to human death - his own brother chose the human half of their heritage. He also knows the grief of separation with his wife, and the comfort of knowing he will meet her again in the West -- It is one thing to part forever with your beloved daughter, it is another to know that even after that parting, she will still endure the grief of Aragorn's death to come!
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She is only one-quarter human, and culturally, she's 100% Elf. Also -- what would happen if she was able to deal with the grief? Would she not outlive her children, and their children, and -- this would multiply her grief; being the lone elf (albeit a queen) among the peoples of the world, all her elf-kindred gone West, all her children and grandchildren and their children ever more and more human, each generation with a shorter life-span....

Arwen was not an Elf, but one of the half-elven who abandoned her Elvish rights to be with Aragorn. Actually, there were still Elves left in Middle-Earth even after Aragorn's death - there were still the Avari and the Wood-elves of Greenwood the Great.

Furthermore, Arwen became counted amongst Men when she stayed behind in Middle-earth to wed Aragorn. Even though Elrond chose to be counted amongst Elves, and his children would be born as Elves, they still had the possibility to choose otherwise.

Hence, she became a mortal woman and though there'd still be a chance she'd outlive her children, she wouldn't outlive her grandchildren.

I know that Arwen in the movies is said to 'dwindle forever in the woods' (or something in the like) after Aragorn's death, but that's rubbish, along with the rest.
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Arwen was not an Elf, but one of the half-elven who abandoned her Elvish rights to be with Aragorn.
Elanorraine didn't say Arwen was an Elf, she said she was culturally an Elf. She grew up learning things Elvish rather than those of Men, so when Aragorn died she was left in an alien city with only her grown children for comfort. She was a fish out of water.

Elrond was right in trying to protect her; however, Aragorn just like Beren before him, fulfilled the task set by his future father-in-law. Once that was completed, Elrond could do nothing less than bless the union.
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She grew up learning things Elvish rather than those of Men, so when Aragorn died she was left in an alien city with only her grown children for comfort. She was a fish out of water

That's a bit of an overstatement.

To me, Arwen wasn't a delicate orchid, locked away in the confinement of a greenhouse by both her father and Galadriel. She was strong and wise, and in the 120 years she was Queen of Gondor, i'm sure she managed to understand the ways of Man, so that in the end she fitted right in.

Arwen chose to die merely to live out the Choice of L˙thien to the fullest, not because she felt no one understood her.

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Elanorraine didn't say Arwen was an Elf, she said she was culturally an Elf.

Elanorraine posted that Arwen would outlive her children, grandchildren, etc. like an Elf would do. Twas that i corrected by stating that Arwen was not an Elf.
I think Arwen had the best of both worlds. She lived as an elf for 200+ years and only when she decided to stay with Aragorn did she have to 'make the choice' and then live out the rest of her long life as a mortal.

I choose to say 'mortal' rather than 'of the race of Men' because she never became 'a Man' (as in of the race). She was never completely one or the other but was half-elven and in my mind she stayed half-elven. That was her race. Her choice merely decided which half determined her destiny.

In Letters Tolkien says:

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Arwen was not an elf, but one of the half-elven who abandoned her elvish rights.


So half-elven was as much a race as was elf, Man, dwarf etc. Elrond, who made his choice, was still known as half-elven.