Thread: Watcher in the Water
If it hadn't done this Sam would have insisted on taking him through Moria with him as he needs someone to pamper and most likely wouldn't of gone off with Frodo.
I don't think this is necessarily true...as much as Sam loved Bill, he loved Frodo more and would have chosen to go with Frodo over Sam. Also, I don't think Bill would have made it into the mines anyhow. It might have taken quite a while for the other members of the Fellowship to convince Sam to let him go, but I think it would have been accomplished in the end. The Watcher just sort of sped up the process.
As for what the Watcher was, I think it is sort of like Shelob...not particularly an agent for either side, just something malevolent lurking in an out of the way place. Sauron may have known it was there, and regarded it the same way as he did Shelob: it just made him happy to know that there was something nasty and evil out there that he didn't really have to worry about controlling. I don't think the Watcher was aware of the Ring; it just was doing what it would to any potential prey. After his battle with the Balrog, Gandalf says there are things in the deep places of the world older than Sauron. I think the Watcher is one of these things. The Watcher, if it is, as I assume, older than Sauron or at least unconnected with him, really isn't particularly good or evil...just nasty.
So if the Watcher saved the company, specifically Sam, from the insidious influence of Bill, doesnt that make it an agent for good?
Really, there's nothing in the world that's so bad that nothing it does or causes has any good consequences. If you think about it, the Ring itself is sort of an agent for good. Although it was created for evil and did cause horrible things to happen, in the end, good prevails. If the Ring hadn't been created and then destroyed, Sauron or a worse power would still be lurking somewhere.
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[Edited on 20/1/2003 by Grondmaster]
then how could the watcher in the water be a desendant of Ungoliat while shelob was de last of his kind.
I didn't mean the Watcher was a descendant of Shelob or Ungoliant...I just meant that, like Shelob, it wasn't actually in allegiance with either side.
Bill's not an agent of evil, ti's just that he's much loved and you see how stubborn Sam is when he dives into the water to join Frodo on the boat. In my mind there's no doubt about it he would have just brought him with him.
I have no idea what the watcher could possibly be but I trust what you said Grondmaster.......=D
at least sauron filled moria with orcs (mentioned in appendices too) so could be he had something to do with that bunch of tentacles too, coz the beast first attacked the ringbearer when the gate to moria was opened, but maybe it only sensed the evil presence of sauron in the Ring.
My bet is that what I said before
Anyway, the squid had to be there with a purpose, i don't think it was just coincidence it came in the water just before the entrance to Moria, in a time when Sauron filled it up with Orcs and such stuff.
Why did the watcher kill the dwarves then?
Because he was hungry?
I don't believe the Watcher was sentient, just a good guard dog. The Watcher would have eaten any Orc that was foolish enough to try direct communication. So, if the Watcher had taken the Ring, Sauron wouldn't have known it unless a Nazgul happened by.
(Grondy merely replaced a naughty word.)
Darn the pass of Carahdras!
But everyone knows that, right?
Maybe the watcher in the water is an independent Maia like Ungoliant, who chose to take the form of a squid and live under the misty mountains after it came down to Arda, and after thousands of years it decided to take some fresh air? It's logical for the Watcher to attack Frodo as it'd feel the power of the Ring - Sauron's Maian power.
Don't forget Gandalf himself says later on "There are older and unknown creatures in the deepest bowels of the earth" - or something like that (and he's probably not referring to Morlocks).
If the watcher's Maian, it would indeed be related to Dragons, as Dragons are maiar. For the same, it's related to Gandalf himself.
'It was as shaggy as an old dog and as lean as a clothes-rail, but it was alive. Nob's looked after it.'
'What! My Bill? cried Sam.
For a long time I used to think the Watcher was Maian. Only Iluvatar could create beings with free thought, and these were either Valar, Maiar, or his Children (plus the Dwarves of course). Anything that wasn't "Children" but had free thought tended to be Maiar. Examples of this are the Ents and the Giant Eagles, Morgoth's Werewolves, Balrogs, and vampires. In HOME these is also some evidence to suggest the earliest Orcs and the dragons were Maia too.
So does the Watcher have free thought, or is it just an animal? It appeared to go for Frodo, but was that just a one in nine chance? It did appear to drive the party in Moria and collapse the entrance behind them. This does suggest some form of thinking, but I'm not totally convinced. Gandalf's remark of there being older and darker things in the bowels of the earth than orcs, does suggest something more insidious, but again, could just mean any of Morgoth's creations. I think here, too, his mind was possibly refering to the Balrog, which he must have known resided in Moria.
Now if the Watcher was Maiar, it almost certainly would have started out as one of Ulmo's servants, just as Sauron was once in the service of Aule. Ulmo was the one Valar who never totally abandoned Middle Earth, and was thus the reason Morgoth and Sauron never posed any threat at sea, beyond corrupting the Numenorians. If the Watcher was Maiar, and Morgoth had managed to corrupt it into his service, where would it go to avoid Ulmo's wrath. The only watery places Ulmo did not control were the rivers. Why does a huge great kraken finish up in a lake at the foot of Moria? Not by choise I'd imagine. I think it was driven there to escape Ulmo, and had swam up the Gwathlo from the sea.
For some reason you get the impression the Watcher is ancient, and again if that is so, it suggests Maiar rather than animal.
Funny, when I began this post I was actually going to say I used to think the Watcher was Maiar but now I''m not so sure. As I've written my thoughts down, however, I'm back to thinking that yes, the Watcher is Maiar. That is only my own thought however, and the above reasoning could have totally different explainations. Be interesting to hear Virumor's views on this.
At one point, it came from beneath the misty mountains or whatever, to keep an eye on the entrance to Mordor, for whatever reason. It could be the lake in front of Moria is fed by streams deep under the misty mountains (like the one Gandalf and the Balrog fell in) and that the Watcher came from there, after spending numerous years there. I think this is the only possibility for the Watcher to end up there - i don't think he was walking around in the vicinity of the lake and then suddenly decided to take a really long bath.
It wasn't sent there because of Sauron for sure, but still the presence of an evil thingy just in front of the entrance seems a bit very coincidental, doesn't it - i don't think he was there yet when Khazad-Dűm flourished by the presence of the Dwarves and the contacts with the Elves of Eregion. It came there when Sauron was busy filling Moria with Orcs and Goblins (cf appendices), i presume - but this doesn't mean that Sauron commanded the Watcher; i think the Watcher moved to the surface because it felt that other evil was stirring in Moria and that something was about to happen.
Evil attracts evil : it seems that all evil beings gather or suddenly pop up at the end of the Third Age, no matter who they answer to, just like all good beings are gathering.
Wow! now that would be one tempermental child. Could you imagine the offspring of Sauron going through his terrible-two's? I thought my toddler was a handful, but I guess I won't moan anymore given the thought of what could have been!
This I proport to be yet another aspect of Saurons great evilness—and Jonathan Swift' only proposed eating them before they reached that age. Personally, as a matter of moral policy, I reject all forms of infanticide and would rather put up with the terrible twos in rememberance of my parents, who put up with me and my siblings.
* I paraphrased that last bit which I found in the 'Akallabeth' of The Silmarillion, where Sauron was preaching to Ar-Pharazon.
And actually, Gothmog -the lord of Balrogs- is sometimes mentioned as Morgoth's son.
Sauron didn't have kids, but he sure wanted some! Why else did he forge the One Wedding Ring?
One Ring to marry them all!
I compare it to Greek mythology, where both the 12 Olympic gods and the numerous lesser gods (Valar and Maiar) are able to reproduce to their heart's content. In the case of Greek mythology, reproducing could even happen without copulating : for instance, Pallas Athena was born out of Zeus's head, Aphrodite out of a shell, etc.
Sorry, I just had to post that!!! What a funny thought!!!
Picture him getting it on with the Dwarf women! Woo-hoo!
Possibly not an image to dwell on for too long on a Family Friendly site.