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but i think that by speculating and discussing them we could "create" their history and enlighten the shroud of mystery that now surrounds them.

No, we cannot and must not presume to create any history related to Middle-earth going beyond fan fiction.
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No, we cannot and must not presume to create any history related to Middle-earth going beyond fan fiction.

Of cource not Smile Smilie
You light my fire, Virumor. Unfortunately you are right again. But I think we can make a little presentation of Avari, right here, in elven guild.

All that you can find about AVARI, post here in this pattern:
ABOUT AVARI...
source: Tolkien's work, publisher, page, line;
quotation of text, regarding the Avari elves;
comment on the information


I will try to keep here, in this post, links to all posted parts, for all interested to be able to follow.
Galin suggested you see our thread Avari. Happy Elf Smilie
And so I did... Thanks.
So anyone with more information about Avari, could post there directly! Thanks to Galin once more!

The thread is as Grondy pointed >>> OVER THERE
Hmm... I didn't know of the Shadow-Elf variety until your post, Ammornil. But I'll take your word for them.

It is name for some Moredhel, living in the shadows. Most of them were Noldor and Sylvan.
Do you believe that orcs were once elves?
Yes, I think that is the most likely origin. Men or elves or both. Sort of like dogs were once wolves. Orcs are made as a mockery of the Children because Morgoth hated/envied all that they were. It makes sense that he would take pleasure in creating something ugly and evil from Eru's most beloved creations.
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It is name for some Moredhel, living in the shadows. Most of them were Noldor and Sylvan.


Can you reference (from the books) the term 'Shadow-elf' please?

I don't necessarily believe that Orcs were made from Elves -- if I was forced to pick a version anyway. See for example Author's note 4 to the The Drúedain in Unfinished Tales, and Christopher Tolkien's note that follows (still note 4):

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'In The Silmarillion the Orcs are said to have been bred by Melkor from captured Elves in the beginning of their days (p. 50; cf. pp. 93 - 94); but this was only one of several diverse speculations on the origin of Orcs.' Christopher Tolkien
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Do you believe that orcs were once elves?


Morgoth was not able to create life, only ruin the works of the valar. In the time when orcs were bred only elves walked middle-earth. My guess is that orcs are a crossbreed of elves and somekind of reptile... but my imagination likes to fly and i'm usually way off Smile Smilie
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In the time when orcs were bred only elves walked middle-earth.


In that version, yes; and in the version in which Orcs were bred from Men, Men were awake in Middle-earth -- meaning I'm just adding that Tolkien's variant idea went hand in hand with a variant chronology. Obvious to say perhaps, but there was no published Silmarillion in JRRT's lifetime, and so the origin of Orcs could still be fluid as far as he was concerned.

Tolkien did publish, by way of Treebeard, the implication that Orcs came in the Great Darkness, and he gives just a bit of chronology concerning when this 'Great Darkness' was, explaining that Elves began waking up trees: 'But then the Great Darkness came, and they passed away over Sea, or fled into far valleys, and hid themselves...'

ThoughTreebeard is a character in the story (not Tolkien himself), still this is an interesting statement to my mind.

In Appendix F it is said the Orcs were first bred by the Dark Power of the North in the Elder Days. My only point here is that JRRT need only feel somewhat constrained by what he had already put into print (or revealed to his readership), and he had merely had Treebeard say that Orcs were made in mockery of Elves -- not that they were necessarily made from Elves -- which is different in any case.
But PJ put in his movie that orcs were once elves! Doesn't that make it instantly true then and beyond all doubt?
It's the Elven scholars that claim that Orcs came from Elves. This is not necessarily the truth. I would take anything written by Elven scholars with a bucket of salt.
In the Author's note in Unfinished Tales it is, perhaps notably, the Eldar who say that doubtless Morgoth bred Orcs from various kinds of Men.

Adding that the Drúedain must have escaped Morgoth's shadow: 'for their laughter and the laughter of Orcs are as different as is the Light of Aman from the Darkness of Angband.'
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But PJ put in his movie that orcs were once elves! Doesn't that make it instantly true then and beyond all doubt?

You like that there suspension bridge? My uncle can get you a good deal on it. Elk Grinning Smilie
I have a question, where do you people think cuivienen is, ( birth place of elves.)please mail me your answers. Also, I think it might have been located just northwest of middle-earth shown in tolkien maps. Also do the same with almaren and what you think might have happened to it. Animated Wink Smilie
Cuivienen was on the shores of the sea of Helcar, which was near one of the roots of one of the Lamps of the Valar.
1. Galin, is right as usual, that Moredhel (original name Moriquendi with sg.form Moriquende /in Quenya/) are only mentioned as those elves, who did not traveled to Aman and thus never have seen the light of the Trees of Valinor. Their presumed decedents Fuineldar (Fuinequendi) are not created by Tolkien himself, but by some Tolkien-scholars and fans, and for purposes of dramatization and Game-scripting. There is only one Dark Elf who dwelt willingly in shadow rather than in light and his name, if I recall good, was Eol the Dark Elf, who lived in Nan Elmoth in East Beleriand.

Shadow elves appear not in Tolkien's works as far as I am aware.


2. I asked my question in fact, because I too doubt that orcs were once elves. I have reasons that I will not add here, but thanks for all references and opinions.
I did say it thought it was the most likely origin, but I don't think it's extreamly more likely than other scenarios. After thinking some more I am starting to believe that it would be easier for Morgoth to make them from something else, and just let the Children wonder why the Orcs looked so much more familiar to them than.. for example Dragons, and watch them come to their own, scary, horrible conclusions.

I think perhaps apes are a favorite "non Elf/Men" candidate for me at the moment. But I guess we'll never know for sure. Wiggle Smilie
I'll add that Orc-formed Maiar appear in Tolkien's later musings about Orcs. This idea, I think, could actually have been more useful for Tolkien if he had expanded on them -- that's if -- JRRT certainly imagined them, but all I am saying here is that he could have expanded on them as well.

Whatever idea Tolkien would have ultimately landed on (possibly he would have purposely included contradicting ideas, or left the matter somewhat vague), I think Maiar-orcs were likely going to be part of Middle-earth -- not as the main source of 'regular orcs' but rather as long-lived and more terrible Orc-leaders, for example.
Maiar as orcs... hmm...
Perhaps the chieftains of the orcs were such but I doupt they all were maiar given that they were mostly thought to be dumb. Maiar in my opinion would be smarter Smile Smilie
Why do we have to count Maiar smarter than Elves or Men? Stronger in mind maybe, but smarter... As the story shows perhaps we can find fools and destroyers in "any" race (I can not find such an Ent though). Why not Maiar-orcs. I kind of like this idea. I need to spend some more time on it! Thanks, Galin!
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Why do we have to count Maiar smarter than Elves or Men? Stronger in mind maybe, but smarter...

Because they are offspring of Eru's mind, and all took part in the Great Music of the Ainur.
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Because they are offspring of Eru's mind
my thoughts exactly vir Smile Smilie
Can not agree... Maiar can not be considered as wise and/or smart only for taking part in Eru's original idea for Ea. They even did not knew what they were doing until it was done. So they were mere tools of One's will.

Taking in mind, that Sauron was Maia, Saruman was Maia, as far as I remember Valaraucor (Balrogaths) were also Maiar... I do not share much love for them, even though Olorin is one of my most favourite characters.
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They even did not knew what they were doing until it was done. So they were mere tools of One's will.

That is incorrect. Eru first played them the Music, then let them replay, letting each adding their own interpretation by their own free will.
But did they knew the purpose of it? Angel Smilie I will see my Silmarillion once again before continuing to be "unfaithful". Can you give some specific place (part/story) to look to.
Just start reading at the beginning. The first chapters/books are about the creation and the Ainur. Happy Elf Smilie
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Olorin is one of my most favourite characters.

I could never nor shall I ever be able to think of him as one of the Maiar Smile Smilie
To me he is Gandalf. And more Valar than Maiar Smile Smilie
What makes you think, that Olorin was Valar, Arath? Is there any reference in this matter?
Olórin (Gandalf) was Maia not Vala, the same as Sauron; it says about eight pages into 'The Istari' of Unfinished Tales:
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To the overthrow of Morgoth {Vala} he {Manwë} sent his herald Eönwë {Maia}. To defeat Sauron {Maia} would he not then send some lesser (but mighty) spirit of the angelic people, one coëval and equal, doubtless, with Sauron in their beginnings, but not more? Olórin was his name. But of Olórin we shall never know more than he revealed in Gandalf.

For clarity, Grondy added the words set off in brackets.
Well, but Morgoth was not a Vala. The one that used to be named Melkor lost that title when he became the Enemy.
What was he then? What race I mean?
The great among the Ainur the Elves named the Valar or Powers, but in time Melkor was no longer counted among the Valar. He was still one of the Ainur, and is said to have permanently incarnated himself.

The Maiar were said to be of the same order as the Valar 'but of less degree'
I do not know how much time it took to you to get all this familiar with, but I am glad you've spent it. Thanks, Galin. It was a clear and useful post once again! Happy Elf Smilie
I have opened a small "poll-thread" for the reasons that make you "be alive". It is HERE

Please leave your honest opinion!
Pity, that I have to make third post in a row, but alive this place I will keep for elves to be able to return if they need a place to rest...

Manna hiininya nar? Vanwa Nuumenna ar avante pelar... (meaning: "Where my children are? Lost into the West and never to return... [at least hope to express that]) Sad Smilie
"I love the taste of Elf blood in the morning!" - Enserric the Longsword
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"I love the taste of Elf blood in the morning!" - Enserric the Longsword


elfblood is hard to get Wink Smilie

gondolin Big Smile Smilie!
the elven guild will not fade. have no fear A Smile Smilie
Eh, let this place fade out of the quick access panel (or w/e it's called). It can always be revived when someone has something elvish to discuss. Besides there's only so much one can say about the pointy-eared little freaks......
Instead of posting here, feel free to join in the trivia threads. I think Grondy and I have tested one another's knowledge adequately and it would be nice to have some new blood.
Summer's finally here Smile Smilie
Let your hearts rejoice Smile Smilie
Actually, it's not.
We Northlings welcome summer when it shows up, where I live we can easily have 4 seasons in one day no matter what the calendar says. Smile Smilie
Tourist: "What do you do around here in the summer?"

Local: "Well, if it falls on a Sunday we go on a picnic."

In the western half of Washington State, summer historically starts about 12 July and lasts until the end of September. Though the last two years it has arrived about a week earlier. June is usually crummy with some good weather in May.
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Actually, it's not.


You should see the northlands now vir Smile Smilie
green on the trees and the sun even shows her face again Big Smile Smilie

For me this is summer no matter how cold it may be outside Smile Smilie
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green on the trees and the sun even shows her face again (by Arath)


Why is the Sun "she"?

BTW: Summer is back indeed here on the South-East of Europe, though there is some rain any now and then. I love summer!!!
Because she is "HOT" and if you aren't careful she'll burn you?
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Ammornil asked: Why is the Sun "she"?


Because Arien is feminine (the form of the name is arguably feminine too), and the Sun is the flower of the feminine tree, also known as Culúrien.

Happy Elf Smilie
Greetings all,

Just wanted to introduce myself to the guild. Nice to see you all.
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