Start of #bilbos-study buffer: Sun Mar 23 15:34:14 2003
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* ChanServ sets mode: +nt yes, we start Book II
I will begin as usual with the rules
* Asteroth is demonstrating an action!
am i allowed to do that during class?
is demonstrating smile
no actions are permitted during class.
both are not allowed
thank-you Cale, no smilies are permitted during class
You are very welcome
can we PM people disturbingly?
please do not
what else am i not allowed to do?
you may not pm other participants as this will
distract them from the class
no naughty language.
and i think also, no PC- or something- 'cause it
diturbs ppl who want to learn,,,
am i right?
ok, are we ready to begin?
I think we are
How does Book II open?
you turn the first page
Somebody woke up
of the second book
how long was that someone asleep and why was he asleep?
for three days
Frodo was recovering from his wound
He'd been hurt by the Nazgul
and fell off the unhorseable horse
wasen't it not a nazgul yet- it was a ringwraith
As Valedhelgwath has pointed out, the chapter is
titled "Many Meetings" Let's go into some of these meetings.
same thing, different names
The fist meeting is between which 2 characters?
but when it's a nazgul it flies
Frodo meets up with Gandalf
not necessarily irina
And how has Gandalf caught up with Frodo's adventures?
listening to his mumbles and talking to the others
Reading Frodo's thoughts and mind
Does Gandalf reveal where he has been?
he will later
not really, just that he has been held captive
why do you suppose he has not given Frodo an
explanation. I would think Frodo deserved one after all he had
He still considered that Frodo was still sick
maybe he thought frodo was still tired and not in the
best shape mentally or physically
Not many people would be privy to Saruman's
treachery at that point
That would be something to come out at the
Good point Val, that would really discombobble
everyone to know that now
I think so too, Valedhelgwath.
Bits and pieces may come together to give a bigger
who else does Frodo meet in this chapter?
That was fast
yes, he connects with his faithful Sam again.
well he hasn't really been away from sam, has he??
Sam, who had to be forced from his masters bedside
Poor Sam waits over him for four days while he's
asleep and then misses him waking up
What does Sam beg Elrond to allow him to do?
yes, pity that, Valedhelgwath
To be allowed in at the cooncil
before the council, Calenthang
when they go to eat
wait on Frodo
yes, ever the faithful servant
serve = wait
When Bilbo and Frodo meet again, what does Bilbo ask
To see the ring
we freak out
Frodo doesn't really want to let him see it...
Bilbo gets upset
a moment of insanity
To his distress and amazement he found that he was no
longer looking at Bilbo, a shadow seemed to have fallen
between them, and through it he found himself eyeing a little
wrinkled creature with a hungry face and bony groping hands.
He felt a desire to strike him.
That is what came to my mind when I originally read it.
A portent of what could have become of Bilbo had
he kept the ring
but what if the shadow is revealing what may become of
Frodo as well.
I don't think it's any accident that Gollum was
once a hobbit too
Hi! sorry I'm late
Yes, Frodo too
If Frodo gave into the desire to strike at the image
before him, would that be another victory for the Ring?
It was pity that stayed Bilbo's hand.... It
would be bad for Frodo to fail here
Surely immediately after striking Bilbo, he would be
very remorseful for what he had done.
Damage would have been done
Would it have been pity that stayed Frodo's hand here
or something else?
Not pity but love
good point, Valedhelgwath.
He knew it was his uncle Bilbo
and the ring was not yet in control of Frodo
both pity and love would protect Frodo from the Ring's
hold on him.
The chapter ends with a big gathering before the
council meeting. Who does Frodo meet at the evenings eventss?
yes, Gloin was there
In fact Gloin entertained Frodo for quite some time
Merry and Pippin
and sees some stuck-up fairy princess
was Boromir there yet?
no, I do not think so.
don't think so
neither did I, but I wasn't sure
He rides in just before the council meeting
What is the mood at this gathering?
very comforting, I thought
Elf-like, sort of surreal
Like a respite from all that had occurred
like something that could only happen in
another restful period before and after the storm
I think this goes along with something Grondy had
mentioned in a previous discussion about Tolkien using
tension, tranquility or jovialness, then tension again.
I think it does the reader good too to get these
Who has been summoned to the Council of Elrond?
Tolkien did that so well that he had me up until
midnight reading ROTK
yes, I agree Valedhelgwath. The book does have intense
moments and it does offer respite.
Gimli and Gloin
the free peoples of middle earth
a cresendo from start to climax for that many
pages would be hard to keep the reader sane
Val was there too, but very quiet at the back
Sam behind the bushes
Sam snuck in
I think they knew he was there though
probably Elrond and Gandalf did
I would be surprised if Elrond and/or Gandalf did not
know Sam was there.
so would I
Aragorn and Gandalf show humility at this meeting.
In refusing to use the ring?
Gandalf reveals that he let his guard down and was
deceived by Saruman.
In letting their host run the show
And Aragorn takes responsibilty for his ancestor.
Ancestory was very important to the
"Since it seemed fit that Isildur's heir should labour
to repair Isildur's fault"
yes, it is Val. Would that perhaps explain why the
Dunedain have taken on the role of Rangers and protectors of
It was a big role change for them, but the task
of protecting their wards would have been the same
and without a kingdom to rule it would have kept
them off the dole
Everyone has brought information of some sort to the
meeting. What do we find out?
given them something meaningful do do
that Gollum has escaped
Sauron is looking for the least of rings
yes, but I think it is more a matter of responsibility
and accountably, Grondy.
That Saruman is no longer an ally
that Boromir's brother had a dream
they must either desrtoy the ring or hide it forever
I think Boromir had the dream too
does Boromir understand this dream or is he hoping the
council will reveal it to him?
Also that Saruman has been breeding half orcs
Boromir has come there to find the meaning
he made the trip to find the meaning of the
What is the riddle?
you don't have to quote it, just the jest of it.
what is Isuldur's bane
sword that was broken he should have known
or might have
And the Halfling forth shall stand
yes, that about covers it.
at this point what does Gandalf ask of Frodo?
To show them all the ring
There were several ideas tossed around as to how to
deal with the Ring. What were they?
to destroy it
to hide it forever
send it over the sea
to use it
who wanted to use the Ring, Princess?
no dragon hot enough to melt it
How did he think Gondor could make use of the ring?
is that proved grondy??
did they ever try i mean??
Gandalf said so, he would know better than me
to use it has a weapon against sauron
and what would be the possiblity of this working?
None...it would all turn to evil
it would all end in corruption if Gondor claimed
the ring as a weapon
it can be used for good initially but wouold turn
to evil before long
What were some of the hiding places suggested?
how was that suggestion receivedc?
Gey Havens and the sea beyond
That Tom would soon lose interest in it and
eventually forget its importance
He would then perhaps misplace it
And they probably cound not get to the sea
and why not in an Elven region?
Elron didn't want the ring kept there
the time of the elves was comming to an end
so what was the solution?
to send it to the fires of mt doom
Bilbo started this mess, so he volunteered to
But the only measure that he knows is desire for power
and so he judges all hearts. The very desire of it corrupts
the heart. Into his heart the thought will not enter that any
will refuse it, that having the Ring we may not seek to
destroy it. If we seek this, we shall put him out fo reckoning
No doubt so that he could crawl into a hole with
why would Bilbo not been a good candidate.
yes, Valedhelgwath, unfortunately that would be a
Too old and he would have been corrupted
he was old and the ring would have too much power
he had held the ring for too long
his time had passed
So who will be the ringbearer?
not an Elf says the Dwarf
Do you think that it was important that Frodo
volunteer for this task?
not a Dwarf says the Elf