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Thread: Week 22 - 26 Fellowship of the Ring Book II

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Start of #bilbos-study buffer: Sun Mar 23 15:34:14 2003
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yes, we start Book II
I will begin as usual with the rules
* Asteroth is demonstrating an action!
am i allowed to do that during class?
thank-you Asteroth.
Smile Smilie is demonstrating smile
hehe
no actions are permitted during class.
both are not allowed
oh!!!
thank-you Cale, no smilies are permitted during class
You are very welcome
can we PM people disturbingly?
please do not
ok
what else am i not allowed to do?
you may not pm other participants as this will
distract them from the class
no naughty language.
and i think also, no PC- or something- 'cause it
diturbs ppl who want to learn,,,
am i right?
PC Irena?
:-|
private chat,,,
what?
yes, Irena
Oh yes
Absolutely
ok, are we ready to begin?
i am
I think we are
i guess
How does Book II open?
you turn the first page
Somebody woke up
of the second book
feeeling comfy
Many Meetings
how long was that someone asleep and why was he asleep?
for three days
four nights
Frodo was recovering from his wound
He'd been hurt by the Nazgul
correct
and fell off the unhorseable horse
wasen't it not a nazgul yet- it was a ringwraith
same thing
As Valedhelgwath has pointed out, the chapter is
titled "Many Meetings" Let's go into some of these meetings.
same thing, different names
The fist meeting is between which 2 characters?
first*
but when it's a nazgul it flies
Frodo meets up with Gandalf
?
not necessarily irina
And how has Gandalf caught up with Frodo's adventures?
listening to his mumbles and talking to the others
Frodo's*
Reading Frodo's thoughts and mind
Does Gandalf reveal where he has been?
not yet
he will later
not really, just that he has been held captive
wb
why do you suppose he has not given Frodo an
explanation. I would think Frodo deserved one after all he had
been through.
He still considered that Frodo was still sick
maybe he thought frodo was still tired and not in the
best shape mentally or physically
Not many people would be privy to Saruman's
treachery at that point
That would be something to come out at the
council
Good point Val, that would really discombobble
everyone to know that now
I think so too, Valedhelgwath.
Bits and pieces may come together to give a bigger
picture.
who else does Frodo meet in this chapter?
Sam
Bilbo
That was fast
yes, he connects with his faithful Sam again.
well he hasn't really been away from sam, has he??
Sam, who had to be forced from his masters bedside
Poor Sam waits over him for four days while he's
asleep and then misses him waking up
What does Sam beg Elrond to allow him to do?
yes, pity that, Valedhelgwath
To be allowed in at the cooncil
-in*
before the council, Calenthang
?
when they go to eat
wait on Frodo
yes, ever the faithful servant
serve = wait
When Bilbo and Frodo meet again, what does Bilbo ask
of Frodo?
To see the ring
What happens?
we freak out
Frodo doesn't really want to let him see it...
Bilbo gets upset
a moment of insanity
To his distress and amazement he found that he was no
longer looking at Bilbo, a shadow seemed to have fallen
between them, and through it he found himself eyeing a little
wrinkled creature with a hungry face and bony groping hands.
He felt a desire to strike him.
Gollum
That is what came to my mind when I originally read it.
A portent of what could have become of Bilbo had
he kept the ring
but what if the shadow is revealing what may become of
Frodo as well.
I don't think it's any accident that Gollum was
once a hobbit too
Hi! sorry I'm late
Yes, Frodo too
If Frodo gave into the desire to strike at the image
before him, would that be another victory for the Ring?
Totally
indeed
It was pity that stayed Bilbo's hand.... It
would be bad for Frodo to fail here
Surely immediately after striking Bilbo, he would be
very remorseful for what he had done.
Damage would have been done
Would it have been pity that stayed Frodo's hand here
or something else?
Not pity but love
good point, Valedhelgwath.
He knew it was his uncle Bilbo
and the ring was not yet in control of Frodo
both pity and love would protect Frodo from the Ring's
hold on him.
The chapter ends with a big gathering before the
council meeting. Who does Frodo meet at the evenings eventss?
Aragorn
Gimli
Glorfindel
Gloin?
yes, Gloin was there
Bilbo
In fact Gloin entertained Frodo for quite some time
Merry and Pippin
Elrond
Gandalf
Lindir
Uhmmm..Legolas?
and sees some stuck-up fairy princess
was Boromir there yet?
no, I do not think so.
don't think so
neither did I, but I wasn't sure
He rides in just before the council meeting
What is the mood at this gathering?
Homely
very comforting, I thought
Elf-like, sort of surreal
homey Val
Like a respite from all that had occurred
like something that could only happen in
Middle-Earth
another restful period before and after the storm
I think this goes along with something Grondy had
mentioned in a previous discussion about Tolkien using
tension, tranquility or jovialness, then tension again.
exactly Grondy.
I think it does the reader good too to get these
respites
Who has been summoned to the Council of Elrond?
Tolkien did that so well that he had me up until
midnight reading ROTK
Bilbo
Aragorn
Gandalf
Boromir
yes, I agree Valedhelgwath. The book does have intense
moments and it does offer respite.
Gimli and Gloin
Legolas
the free peoples of middle earth
a cresendo from start to climax for that many
pages would be hard to keep the reader sane
Glorfindel
Galdor
Val was there too, but very quiet at the back
lol
Frodo
Erestor
very good.
Sam behind the bushes
Sam snuck in
yes, Princess
I think they knew he was there though
probably Elrond and Gandalf did
I would be surprised if Elrond and/or Gandalf did not
know Sam was there.
so would I
Aragorn and Gandalf show humility at this meeting.
In refusing to use the ring?
Gandalf reveals that he let his guard down and was
deceived by Saruman.
In letting their host run the show
And Aragorn takes responsibilty for his ancestor.
Ancestory was very important to the
Numenorians/Dunedain
"Since it seemed fit that Isildur's heir should labour
to repair Isildur's fault"
yes, it is Val. Would that perhaps explain why the
Dunedain have taken on the role of Rangers and protectors of
the North?
It was a big role change for them, but the task
of protecting their wards would have been the same
and without a kingdom to rule it would have kept
them off the dole
Everyone has brought information of some sort to the
meeting. What do we find out?
given them something meaningful do do
that Gollum has escaped
Sauron is looking for the least of rings
yes, but I think it is more a matter of responsibility
and accountably, Grondy.
That Saruman is no longer an ally
that Boromir's brother had a dream
they must either desrtoy the ring or hide it forever
I think Boromir had the dream too
does Boromir understand this dream or is he hoping the
council will reveal it to him?
Also that Saruman has been breeding half orcs
Boromir has come there to find the meaning
he made the trip to find the meaning of the
dream's riddle
What is the riddle?
you don't have to quote it, just the jest of it.
what is Isuldur's bane
tha Ring
sword that was broken he should have known
or might have
And the Halfling forth shall stand
yes, that about covers it.
in Imadladris
at this point what does Gandalf ask of Frodo?
To show them all the ring
There were several ideas tossed around as to how to
deal with the Ring. What were they?
to destroy it
to hide it forever
send it over the sea
to use it
who wanted to use the Ring, Princess?
Boromir
no dragon hot enough to melt it
How did he think Gondor could make use of the ring?
is that proved grondy??
did they ever try i mean??
Gandalf said so, he would know better than me
to use it has a weapon against sauron
and what would be the possiblity of this working?
None...it would all turn to evil
it would all end in corruption if Gondor claimed
the ring as a weapon
it can be used for good initially but wouold turn
to evil before long
What were some of the hiding places suggested?
Tom Bombadil
how was that suggestion receivedc?
Gey Havens and the sea beyond
Grey*
That Tom would soon lose interest in it and
eventually forget its importance
He would then perhaps misplace it
And they probably cound not get to the sea
unhindered
and why not in an Elven region?
Elron didn't want the ring kept there
the time of the elves was comming to an end
so what was the solution?
Destroy it
to send it to the fires of mt doom
Bilbo started this mess, so he volunteered to
finish it
But the only measure that he knows is desire for power
and so he judges all hearts. The very desire of it corrupts
the heart. Into his heart the thought will not enter that any
will refuse it, that having the Ring we may not seek to
destroy it. If we seek this, we shall put him out fo reckoning
No doubt so that he could crawl into a hole with
his precious
why would Bilbo not been a good candidate.
yes, Valedhelgwath, unfortunately that would be a
distinct possibility.
Too old and he would have been corrupted
he was old and the ring would have too much power
over him
he had held the ring for too long
his time had passed
So who will be the ringbearer?
Frodo
not an Elf says the Dwarf
Do you think that it was important that Frodo
volunteer for this task?
yes
Yes
not a Dwarf says the Elf
why, princess?
or Valedhelgwath
because that way he wanted to destroy it
It was the only way the arguements could have
been solved
both are good points.
None of the other races trusted each other with
it
Plus Frodo was Eru's chosen one for the task
or so we all surmise
I also think that is is demonstrated here that Frodo
is most likely the least greedy and most humble of those
present.
Yes, quite
I have one more quote to leave you with:
Aragorn is humble and not greedy, but he fears
what it would do to him
And he has had the ring for 17 years with little
harm
Destroying the Ring was not Aragorn's destiny and he
knew that
quote from Elrond:
while any of the other races would have used it
for some dasterdly deed in that amount of time
Aragorn may have seen it as his task to do what
Isildur had failed to do however
I think that is why he was so protective of Frodo
He would have tried, but probably failed in the end
which he knew
Frodo was his carrier... to keep temptation at
bay
or at least was afraid of
"That is the purpose for which you are called hither,
called, I say, though I have not called you to me, strangers
from distant lands. You hvae come and are here met in this
very nick of time, by chance as it may seeem. Yet it is not
so. Believe rather that it is so ordered that we, who sit
here, and none others, must now find cousel for the peril of
the world."
Elrond thought they were called by a higher power
in the fulness of time, then?

Aragorn was raised in Rivendell, Elrond as a father
figure. I think he knew that there would be little chance of
he, himself, having the strength of will to destroy the Ring
I think he knew enough about the workings of the
Valar and Eru to make this judgement
That is my thinking.
And so ends the lesson.
Aragorn is ina way like Gandalf,,,
Elrond was a pretty wise cookie
he must have been a good father,
There are definite similarities LittleI

End of #bilbos-study buffer Sun Mar 23 15:34:14 2003
We are post-poning the class for March 30th. Nell is not feeling well, and we care too much about her to let her worry about a class today. Get better and we love you Nell.

This has been agreed to by: Mellie, Perwing, Elda, Asteroth and Peredhil.

Start of #bilbos-study buffer: Sun Apr 06 18:48:45 2003
* Now talking in #bilbos-study
* Topic is 'Class for March 30, 2003 is cancelled'
* Set by Mellie on Sun Mar 30 16:10:08
* ChanServ sets mode: +o Rednell
anyway class is about to begin.
ok
ok
ok, first I want to apologize for not having
class last week.
np Nell
yes, it is quite alright
We left off with the Council of Elrond and
the decision was still to be made as to who would be
going with Frodo on this antiquest to destroy the
Ring
How many were to form the Fellowship and why?
9.... to counter th nine nazgul
I think
good, that is it
Pippin is somewhat indignant at Sam's
selection as part of the Fellowship. What was
Frodo's reaction to this?
he is horrified anyone would want to go with him
Pippin sees it as a reward, what does Frodo
call it?
a severe punishment
right, Grondy. Merry jumps in to Pippin's
defense.
How does he turn Frodo's words around to fit
Pippin's dismay?
he says that they have gone a long with him and
will not abandon him now
very good, Sam
it would be punishment to make us stay
What gifts did Bilbo give Frodo?
a mail coat made of mithril
sting and the mithril coat
and a pretty belt too
Why did they stay in Rivendell longer?
waiting for the scouts to come back
to see if the Nazgul were really gone?
yes
* Rhodry (pt@863056cd.dialup.xtra.14056081.nz.hmsk)
has joined #bilbos-study
yes about the Nazul or about the scouts,
Nell?
who were Elrond's choices for the Fellowship?
Nazgul*
both, Chik
everyone except Pippin and Merry
oh ok
the scouts were looking for the Nazgul
I see
and Sam
Elrond also was thinking os sending two
from his household
who was everyone?
why did Elrond choose them?
Legolas, Gandalf, Gimli, ASragorn,
Boromir, Frodo, and Sam
Elrond never choosed anyone, he only
suggested that all kinds (elfs, dwarfs and men)
should be represented. everone in the fellowship
valontered
very good, Perwing
Yes.... good point
Right Perwing
yes Perwing
Once the journey began were all members
obligated to continue?
they only had to go as far as they chose to
only as far as they would
for only as long as they self saw fit.
Boromir for example never thought about following
frodo all the way
They could chicken out at any time
with no ill will towards them
right Grondy
Frodo could see something in the night sky,
low in the south.
except towards Frod by us if he ruined
the story
What did it look like?
Mars?
I think it was the glow from the fires in
Mt Doom?
like lightning on the hills
I think you are correct Chik. He describes
it as a red star which looked like an eye
I think the Misty Mountains would have
been in the way
shone brightly apparently, or perhaps only
Frodo could see it.
I think it might have been only
Frodo...nobody else seemed to pay any attention to it
plu, Grondy makes a good point about the Misty
Mountains being in the way and all
plus*
yes
yes, which makes it seem that perhaps only
Frodo could see it.
and after Frodo was wounded he did see
things no one else could
They weren't ON the mountains... but they were
very near them.... Frodo should not have been able
to see the horizen at all
could he see the eye before he was hurt?
I don't recall, Chik.
okey
I don't think so
But if he didn't that would explain it
perhaps.
didn't he see it in the prancing pony when he
accidentally put the ring on
?
or am i confusing two mediums here?
and even if it was just a red star the
ring could have magnified it in his mind
and he just saw the face of the witch-king
when he put it on before he was stabbed.
even if he wasn't actually wearing it
no I don't think so Prog
it could have been something simple as the
beginnings of hysteria.... fear of the quest before
him... paranoia?
also the redness from Mount Doom should
only have been visible were there clouds over it
what if the wound from the Morgul blade left
Frodo with the forboding of the Red Eye
that could be, Nell
Yes, more than likely that is it
yes it could be
although, I do like Prog's theory of
paranoia. He most definitely was pessimistic
concerning the journey
who wouldn't be?
Seeing demons around every corner sort of
thing.... not any hocus pocus do to his wound or the
ring.... just a theory
yes exactly Grondmaster. though he was less
pessimistic in the begining because he didn't
understand it all that well
the fellowship left with what Tolkien
referred to as "gear of war". What did each man
carry?
I think Pippin saw the eye when he looked
into the Palantir, though, so it might not be
entirely paranoia
yes that's a good point chika
Frodo had Sting
Well, the palantir was a window right to sauron
but that is much later, chik
sorry
and the other hobbits had the blades they got in
the barrow
each had a pack and a sword or axe
or a bow
or both
Aragorn had Anduril, of course
of course
but what did Sam regret not having?
rope
rope and extra hankies
rope
sensible Sam
and his trowel and pots
flower pots
He didn't have those?
oh yeah
nvm
sorry
I thought you were saying something else
food and a blanket, chage of clothing
change*
And so the journey begins, rather uneventful
was there something more specific you were
looking for Red?
on Crispness day?
well, it was cold and crisp. and pretty much
uneventful until they heard the howls of the wargs
"How the wind howls."
yes, the "ill will of the Caradhras" as
Gimli so nicely put it.
didn't they try the T=Redhorn pass
before the wolves?
yes, they did, Grondy
I got a little ahead of myself.
that wasn't uneventful
* Rhodry (pt@863056cd.dialup.xtra.14056081.nz.hmsk)
Quit (Quit: Leaving)
no, it wasn't. Got to be quite dangerous.
hobbit-elf-dwarfcicles
They were also in danger of being discovered
so had to travel by night.
because of the crebain
And Gandalf and Strider advised not to have
a fire.
yes, Prog.
Gandalf wasn't sure if they should try
the pass, but Aragorn didn't want to go the secret
way, and The Gap of Rohan was off limits
Didn't Boromir want to try that way anyway?
But I like Boromir's response "It will not
help us to keep so secret that we are frozen to
death."
that's the way he came by, so he thought it
was best
But he wasn't keeping the ring from
Sarumen then
Boromir just wanted to take shortest way to
minas tirith, he never thought about the dangers
these routes could have
Gandalf did NOT want to go through Moria....
not so much out of his opwn fear I think as fear for
the safety of the Fellowship
But Caradhras had defeated them so what
choice did they have?
not very many. Gandalf was concerned about the
Gap of Rohan and keeping away from Saruman
They did discuss going back to Rivendell.
none, Legolas showed he could walk on
top of snow and the two Men showed they could be
buldozers and they left the mountain
Pippin would have jumpted at the idea of
returning to Rivendell. But what was Frodo's
reaction?
jumped*
and built a fire and the wolves came
his reaction or decision?
Why did Frodo not want to return to
Rivendell?
Ah
Frodo dreamed that Bilbo didn't think
returning just to tell him it was could wasa a worth
while venture
he did not want to give up
He actually did not want to feel the shame
of returning to Rivendell in defeat.
Seems a tad out of character...
oh, it is the 6th.
well.... maybe not
The title says March 30th, which i incorrect.
It's the 6th of April.
What happened when they met up with the
wargs?
weren't they just plain old wolves?
they had a battle
They fought, and Gandalf had to make some
fireworks
I don't really remember
Didn't he incinerate a acorn or something?
and Legolas shot many arrows
"These were no ordinary wolves hunting for
food in the wilderness" -Gandalf
Ah... my apologies
Which book are you discussing?
and Gandalf set some wargs and trees on
fire
yes, the book, Komosot
which one?
Cajun Warg....
FotR: Book 2
Fellowship of the Ring, A Journey In the Dark
Chapter 3
and 4
we just left Caradhras
alright.
and toasted some Warg
So far in the journey, they have been up
against "no ordinary storm" and "no ordinary wolves"
"no ordinary hiking trip" I would say
harr harr
I would say
because there were no wolf bodies the
next morning
That's quite unordinary
just charred ground.
Where do you suppose the bodies went to?
to whomever sent them
the wargs made ashes of themselves
burned up?
Which one?
who do you think sent the wargs?
they weren't really their, just magic
Gimli took a midnite snack
Ah.... yes.... Saruman's trickery...
Sauron
phantom wargs
very well could have been, and actually most
likely was Saruman
Im going with phantom wargs.
yes that is a good idea
I don't think Sauron has had time to recoup
yet
Saruman make more sense
Guarding his borders
they are closer to Saruman
There were wolfriders living round the
Caradhras though.
and he sent the birds or whatever they
were out spying
yes I would think Saruman
Well, they continue and and make it to the
doors of Moria.
crebain
between to holly trees
two*
"Crebain for Dunland!" worst line.
from*
I can think of worse...
How interesting that we have evidence of a
time when Elves and dwarves worked together and an
elf and a dwarf who are arguing about which race is
at fault.
"You will taste man-flesh tonight"
there you go
you guys are talking about the movie;
this is about the books
The movies were better.
this is not the place...
that's a joke.
I didn't get the reactions i wanted.
Gandalf sure got a reaction out of Boromir
when he admitted that he did not know the password.
Yes Nell, times had changed
Boromir was suprised and frustrated
quite annoyed to say the least.
"What does the writing say?"
and why wouldn't he be, Gandalf said that he
had been in the mines before.
and that's really the first time that we see
Gandalf so frustrated...
maybe the only time...
What was the password?
I think Gandalf entered from the other
side his first trip
mellon
yes, that is correct Grondmaster
friend in Elvish
and the doors to the mine opened and
everyone lived happily everafter.
NOT
Not
"This is no mine.....It's a tomb!"
Boromir skipped a stone at the pool
Kraken:: Grrrr
yeah, surprise in the water.
Sam to the rescue
Kraken:: "Grrrrr, :grin grin:: grrr"
hullo there everyone
good ol'e Sam
Sam:: Oh Frodo...
Poor old Bill
the watcher seemed to know just who to grap.
Not a coincidence, methinks.
nor did Gandalf
yes gandalf was worried by that
Good thing Gandalf whispered into Bill's
ear telling him the way to go home
didn't it... ummm... fondle him? looking for
the ring?
yeah, thank goodness.
kinda
Kraken:: "tickle, tickle."
how far is it to the other side?
Bill was a homing pony
3 days
wasn't it Frodo who accidently steped in
the water earlier, or am I mistaken
he did
I think
yes he did
Boromir had thrown the rock
Gimli:: Ahh, good brew, red meat of the
bone, my cousin Balin will give us a royal welcome/"
Here's a question...
How confident was Gandalf of the way to go?
if the watcher hadn't trapped them and they
left Moria... where would they have gone then?
So the watcher may have had the flavor
of Fodos and that's why he went after him, or it
just may have been the ring
that is interesting, Grondmaster.
that is a good question Prog, I think they might
tried the Gap of Rohan
Why would they leave Moria Prog?
yes that is interesting Grondmaster
the Gap of Rohan would have been suicide.... or
no?
suicide
But the ring conspiracy is more fun
wasn't the battle of the fords happening
then also?
not sure....
must find timeline....
no, still too early for that Komo
by the time they got there though...
and we know nothing about it yet
wb Per
battle of the fords was about a month
later
the first battle?
wouldn't it take them about a month to reach
the gap?
yup
or the second two weeks later?
Ah
difficult to say
so they enter Moria and the Watcher
breaks the Gate
I wonder how carefully Tolkien charted their
progress....
and the Hobbits are tired and discouraged
and afraid
as always
yes and only Gimli doesn't mind the dark
What encouraging words does Aragorn give
them?
and Gandalf lights his staff and passes
his Elrond flask around for the second time
Trust Gandalf, he will not go astray
yeah...
yep, Gandalf will save the day.
but Gandalf gets lost.....
and the fellowship get discuraged
Gollum
Many times I have followed him
"i have no memory of this place..."
and they find an old guard room with an old
well.....
"Hmm, the smell isn't so bad down here, when
in doubt, follow your nose."
But that path smells foul
and pippin throws a stone or something, right?
he leans on a sceleton, and it falls in
- right?
yes down a well I think
ya
Is it an accident?
yes, the "fool of a Took" dropped a stone
down the well.
Pippin was testing the depth of the
guardroomk well, athousand 1, a thousand two, ...
I though he did it on purpose
no, Irena, in the movie there was a
skeleton, not in the book.
lol Grondy
Gandalf:: "throw urself in next time and
rid of us of your stupidity!"
ya, i remebered that i 'm forgetting
Moria from the book- i'll re-read it soon
That was harsh.... that was in the book too,
wasn't it?
yes
yeah
Throw yourself next time and then you will
be no further nuisance
doom doom doom
And so poor, well meaning Pip wakes up every
Orc in Moria....
It as harsh, and Gimli was harsh with him as
well. Gave him first watch as punishment.
ya
But Gandalf was a little kinder later on.
He took over the watch for Pippin.
he wanted to think, not sleep
Gimli's song gives a very good idea of what
Moria was like in it's day.
yes Sam that is correct
is this when Gandalf and Frodo have their
little heart ot heart?
ot= to
What a contrast to what they find a the end
of this chapter.
that's later, huh?
In the movie, yes, Prog. But that heart to
heart actually took place in the Shire before Frodo
left.
Where's everyone go?
no no.... about Gollum following them

yes, Gollum was following them, but all
those lines in the movie are from Shadows Of the Past
no I don't think so Prog, I think that's what
Aragorn and Frodo later on
Oh boy.... I really need to stop watching these
movies...
I can see now, what you meant Red
The films can take something away...
This chapter ends with the song of Gimli
which praises the glories of Moria and then they
find a tomb.
We should read the chapters just before
the class
to drive out the movies residue
Next week we will finish with Moria
yes Grondy, but were there chapters posted for
this class? I didn't see any, was that just me?
I didn't read them at all because I wasn't
planning on coming until literally the last second
and perhaps go to Lothlorien
yes that will be good Nell

Mustn't miss Lorien...
you remembered a lot from the books, Prog
They'rte jumbled together in my head

I think the little talk between Frodo and
Gandalf fits very well in the Moria scene and I can
see why Jackson decided to do it that way
it's been well over a year since I read it
cover to cover
maybe two years...
longer than that for me
I can't even remember
about a year for me
i read it every month
Now that's just nuts
I read pages every day
In what we have covered so far I found these
2 chapters hard to read because there didn't seem to
be any help for the Fellowship when they ran into
trouble
yes I think I'd get sick of it if I read it that
much Arwen! but it is good if you want to remember
things
probably cause it was time for them to make
it on their own then nell...
well, folks that ends the lesson for this
week.
Alright.... see you guys around...

they had to build confidence on their
own so when they fell apart the individuals could
function
c-ya around Prog
alright, thanks Nell, it was a good lesson as
always

End of #bilbos-study buffer Sun Apr 06 18:48:45 2003
Join us Sunday, April 13th at 9pm GMT (4pm ET) for a discussion on Chapter 5 'The Bridge at Khazad-dum' and Chapter 6 'Lothlorien'.

Start of #bilbos-study buffer: Sun Apr 13 18:54:33 2003
* Now talking in #bilbos-study
* ChanServ changes topic to 'Welcome to Planet-Tolkien'
s classroom. If there is not a class going on go to
our general chatroom #Tolkien. We would love to meet
you. (Rednell)'


* Rednell[afk] is now known as Rednell
* Barliman sets mode: +v Asmo
Welcome Asmo
hiya
Hmmm...
Welcome Peredhil
ty
My pleasure Smile Smilie
hey
Hello
wha wha wha??how can u be in 2 rooms at
the same time/?
Uhmm
Magic?
yep
heehee
I know I think
you don't have to quit to come in here. You
just have to type /join #tolkien
then you will be in both rooms
No more magic
Hey ya VHC
What class is going on?
hey Celta
hi
We are looking at Fellowship of the Ring.
Bridge at Khazad-dum and Lothlorien
I hope Val and Grondmaster will be here
Val won't be, I don't know about Grondy
Sad Smilie
OK no smilies
ok, let us start
Yes
Sorry if I don't understand somethings, but
I've read Fellowship in portuguese, I'm afraid that
there are some differences...
that is ok,
can you tell me if there are other channels
like this?
When we left off last week the Fellowship
were making their way through Moria
This is the chapter where they meet up with
the orcs and a cave troll.
What happens to Frodo?
same thing happens to him in the movie...
Frodo sees that his sword shines in blue?
that is correct, Celt, which indicates what?
Orcs are nearby
right.
what happens with the Fellowship encounters
the attack from the Orcs?
they resist for a moment and then escape
but not without injury to a key member.
Frodo gets stabbed?
the armor that Bilbo gave to Frodo saved
him from the Troll attack
yes, he does, the stab by the spear should
have been fatal but it was not.
"That spear would have skewered a wild
boar"
right, from the book and from the movie,
Cale.
Great
Unfortunately after this encounter and
barely escaping with their lives they are about to
meet with a more deadly evil.
D
The Balrog
Do you know who was the first to recognize
the Balrog?
The met with the balrog in the bridge
Gandalf
Gandalf
Gandalf says, "There is some new devilry
here, devised for our welcome, no doubt.'
Legolas recognized it as a Balrog.
It would seem from Gandalf's statement that
Sauron was expecting their arrival.
Do you think the Fellowship fell into
Sauron's trap when they had to abandon the
Carahadras?
I don't think they had a better choice
anyway
So do you think the Dark Lord controlled the
Carahadras or was it just the forces of nature?
Everyone knows he was at work there
Isn't it interesting how the forces of
nature had hindered the hobbits when they began
their journey.
Wake up Red horn.May your blood stained
horn colapse upon enemy heads)
Why would the Dark Lord use nature against
them?
I think it is very disheartening when nature
rises against us. It is not an enemy that we can or
want to fight.
Good point
So this would be a very good way to
discourage the members of the Fellowship.
Who fights the Balrog?
Maybe because the Fellowship wouldn't
notice that could be Sauron's forces...
that is an excellent point, celtavhc
Gandalf fought the Balrog
In fact, Gimli personifies the Calahdras
when ever he refers to their journey
It is Gandalf who suspects the forces of
evil are responsible for their misfortune. And
meeting the Balrog is misfortune indeed as Gandalf
is very tired at this point.
what's this "Údun's flame" that Gandalf
says to the Balrog?
hello
LadyBlue+ hi!
hey Lady
hello Smile Smilie
Ok here are the rules in here
No using of smiles such as Smile Smilie
And no action
For new comers
* Calenthang is demonstrating an action
Yes, this is a classroom! Lol!
sorry. Tanx for telling me.
You are welcome
I am assuming the Flame of Udun refers to
the Balrog itself as a servant of Morgoth the Dark
Lord.
again lol
Now let's get back to the lesson
So Gandalf is using the Flame of Arnor,
which are his powers through the valar, against the
Balrog.
I find it interesting the change in the
appearance of the Balrog here.
Can you describe him as he first appeared?
I don't think I could
dark and engulfed in fire...
wings or no wings...?
yes, celtavhc,
with hair... it's always in the shadows...
they couln't see the creature's form
the fire being the most predominent feature.
However, when the Balrog prepares to take on battle
with Gandalf his appearance changed: "Fire in it
seemed to die, but the darkness grew"
I sense here that the "shadow" or Dark Lord
is preparing to take on battle with Gandalf. The
evil is not represented so much by the fire, but
more by the "dark shadow"
Yes, I think that too...
We really get a "David and Goliath" image
here too.
I think that the fire is just an element
bind to the mountains underearth
that is a very good point, celtavhc.
and element of nature in itself.
as we know the core of our earth is engulfed
by fire.
So fire was more like warning" sign
protective
-protective*
Sorry
or perhaps it goes back to the use of nature
against the Fellowship, as it is fire that is coming
from the centre of the earth.
I always thought that the Balrog is some
kind of an inside fear of everbodys souls.
Gandalf had to overcome his darkest fear in
const of evolution.
That is an interesting analogy, Lady.
*cost
* Barliman sets mode: +v Peredhil_
I think that the Balrog is somewhat a
guardian named by Sauron to protect Moria from
intruders...
sorry
Welcome back man
but remember, the Dwarves were actually
accused of awakening the balrog.
* Peredhil_ is now known as Peredhil
Because of their greed?
so say the Elves.
it was probably true
Oh, sorry, I forgot about that point,
Nell...
the image we get of the balrog and Gandalf
is one that seems like David and Goliath.
Balrog drew itself up to great height.
Gandalf appeared small, altogether alone, grey and
bent.
Yes, the impression is that Gandalf can't
win the fight...
but I think we really expect that he will,
given all the other feats he has managed in the past
* Rhodry1 (pt@861423f4.dialup.xtra.14056081.nz.hmsk)
has joined #Bilbos-Study
* Barliman sets mode: +v Rhodry1
When we come to reading the Two Towers, we
will actually revisit this battle with the balrog
again.
What happened, did the flame of Anor defeat
the flame of Udun?
barely
I think of it in this way. None was
defeated. All won.
Well, the Balrog's sword broke
that is a good point, lady
but I would have thought the opposite, I
would have though both were defeated.
But Gandalf's always almost falling
I am with you on this one Nell
They both fell
but gandalf won by evolving and the balrog
didn't die. It reached his queast of slowing down
the felowship.
Which=death...or at least that is what
the rest of the Fellowship was thinking
Lady, yes, we will come to that in the Two
Towers. But your point is an excellent one.
that's true.
I think the time had come in the journey for
Aragorn to take on his appointed role, whether he
felt he was ready for it or not
But there's something I can't understand...
Gandalf is always described like an old man that
almost can't stand on its own feet, but he can use
his staff and the sword Glamdring at the same time
he is a maia. He only took the human form I
belive.
such is the power of a Wizard/Maia
it's a front to make himself appear weaker then
he is
That is correct Lady
at least i feel
He was a Maia sent by the Valar to act as a
guide to assist Men to overcome Sauron.
that is a good point Asmo
I can't remember... was Sauron also a maia?
yes he was
I think not
I don't think he would have made an
effective guide and teacher, if he could just wave
his sword and staff and make everything alright
again. What would Men learn from that.
War is nice hence we should kill each other
yes, Lady, Sauron was a Maia and Melkor's
right hand man
than Gandalf is to show the men their true
path? I
or only to help the balance be sertored?
*restored
Gandalf was sent to prepare Men to take over
the care of Middle Earth because the Elves were
leaving
Why do you think Gandalf is the only one of
the maia that does his job? I mean, the others are
missing, or just watching the nature...
But balance had to be restored first because
Sauron was upsetting the applecart
but the other wizzards are mentioned
I belive the rest of the Maiar are trying
their best somewhere else. I mean the Middle Earth
is quite big.
Saruman got just a little greedy and started
eyeing the Ring, Radagast got too caught up in
nature to be of any help and the Blue wizards were
busy in the East.
what about Alatar?
Ive always wondered about him
he does not appear in Lord of the Rings,
which is what we are discussing this week.
oh yeah, sorry
np)
What is left of the Fellowship come out of
the mines of Moria: 'Thus, at last, they came beyond
hope under the sky and felt the wind on their faces.
They head towards Lothlorien
That had to have felt some good to breath in
fresh air again
yes and a long journey it was to Lothlorien
Boromir was probably the most discouraged of
any of the group.
I think Boromir was just like a mirror of
the Nines...
I disagree
I think Boromir's weakness was his will
to protect his ppl
As for the Nine they were greedy
mirror of the Nines, celtavhc?
I don't think so. I belive he was the
person who had greater intentions of helping his
race, his people
sorry, didn't know Cale already wrote the
same thing
that is ok
But Boromir got REALLY mad about the ring...
He I am glad we agree on something
I think it was the rign's fault about that
well, the ring did have uniqe powers
my typing is too slow
When he was weakened Boromir was easy to
control
This quote is from the beginning of the
chapter"Lothlorien": Roromir stood irresolute and
did not follow. Is there no other way?" he said.
He did not have any desire to go into
Lorien. Why do you supposee?
it's not something tangible for him to hack and
slash at
Aren't we all a bit scared of the stories,
of places you dont hear good legends about?
Because the elvish queen would discover his
intentions
I agree with celtavhc
The men did belive she is an evil witch.
yes, Lady.
I don't think he knwe she would discover
his intentions.
*knew
He became strange when Galandriel read his
mind
But he did not know what was going to
happen before he went to Lothlorien
I don't know if the legends tell something
about Galadriel
He says that he would rather go through a
hedge of swords. "By strange paths has this company
been led, and so far to evil fortune."
If the legends don't mention her, I agree
with you, Lady
I think Boromir would rather take the most
direct route to Gondor.
what is the most direct route to gondor?
the gap of rohan?
Before Lothlorien?
Even Gimli refers to her as a witch, so
there must be a preception that she has mystic
powers.
Gap of Rohan
ok.
But Gimli is a Dwarf.
Dwarves don't like Elf people
Exactly.
I think they hate them
i thought it was a mutual dislike
not a hatred
I don't think they hate them. They just
don't understand them
well, they had a long standing feud.
But I still don't think it is hate.
Legolas blamed the dwarves for uncovering
evil which changed the lives of the elves.
But didn't the dwarfes balme the Elves for
the exact same thing?
Gimli retorted back that it was not the
Dwarves who brought about this evil. To which
Legolas replied: I did not say so"
This trip to Lorien will forever have an
impact on that tension between the 2 races.
When Haldir comes across the Fellowship, was
he expecting them?
yes
i belive so
To blindfold them
he was sent looking for them
Just waiting I belive.
He was only going to blindfold one of them,
who?
gimli son of gloin
The dwarf
* Asmo gets one right and jumps up and down for joy
How did Gimli react to this?
Hey, no actions!
no actions, Asmo
Not happy.
sorry
How would you feel?
Even more mad.
yes, anger would be one emotion that would
come to mind if my pride was hurt or my integrity
brought into question.
What was Aragorn's solution?
Good thing they got Aragorn's wisdom
around
They were all blindfolded
Yes, the wisdom of a king.
Or just common sense?
I guess we
we'll never know
The blindfolding was actually a positive
experience for Frodo. Do you remember why?
no.
I don't know either
His senses were sharpened. He could smell
the trees and grass, hear the rustle of leaves and
the birds and he felt the warmth of the sun on his
face and hands.
This is probably the first time Frodo has
had a positive experience with nature since he left
the Shire.
So it was more "binding with nature" kind
of experience?
So pleasurable walk trough the forest
My typing is still to slow.
yes, lady. that is a nice way to put it.
what about his stay with tom...isn't that
technically out of the shire
It was almost like a healing.
But there was the Willow.
His experience with Tom and Goldberry was
pleasant, however, remember the wind and the tree
branch scratching the window was not very comforting.
Willow?
I belive it was a Willow.
the old willow in the Old Forest had
swallowed up Merry and Pippin
That's the one.
Yes, and there's Tom's advice of that tombs
Call for Tom?
When Frodo left the Shire, he senses were
enhanced then too, as he never saw the trees look so
beautiful and the harvest so bountiful
so all in all he had 3 experiences which
enhanced his senses
If Frodo was not blindfolded for the
journey, do you think he would have experienced
nature in the same way?
not in the same way but i think just a powerful
I always pictures Tom's forrest as somekind
of a rainforrest and lothlorien as grand trees
sourounded by green light. I belive he would still
feel the energy.
*pictured
I don't think he would have taken the time
to observe his surroundings. I think he would be
watching the others and recalling their experiences
do far.
Why is Frodo almost always feeling that
evil is near?
The old forest was not the most friendly
looking place, Lady. The trees did not like people
at all.
But I for one can never escape the feeling
if a forrest is grand. Could he?
I think knowing the Elves helped him
relax and enjoy nature
I'd bet Gimli didn't smell a single flower
it'd be hard not too
Gimli was probably too busy trying to
maintain his dignity.
Well, if the forrest didn't like people it
still doesn't make it bad.
The hobbits sensed the trees were moving and
watching them, that does not sound very comfortable
and inviting to me.
but the old forest is off topic for tonight.
Sorry. It was hard for a Dwarf in Elves
land.
I belive. Btw, what chapters are we
discussing?
Yes, it was.
Just so I wont go off topic again.
Bridge at Khazas-dum and Lothlorien
Khazad-dum*
thank you.
Frodo compared Rivendell and Lothlorien.
They were very different.
In Rivendell there was memory of ancient
things; in Lorien the ancient things still lived on
in a waking world.
They say a persons pet resembles their
owner. Could it be the same in this case?
What do you mean?
I mean, Elrond an Galadriel had different
caracters. Could they raise the forrests to their
own liking?
I'm still stuck with the forrest, sorry.
That is interesting. For sure they did. I
wonder if the fact that Elrond was half Elven would
have any effect?
He would be more open to the outside world
so to speak. Obviously Lorien was protected from the
outside world.
And Rivendell had more buildings
Could it make it a bit less, I don't
know... like not so scared of what the future
maybring?
exactly Cale.
Human buildings that is
A bit more ready to take whatever time will
bring?
I think Elrond would be more open to the
ways of Men, where, Galadriel would prefer to keep
Lorien pure.
come to think of it... I have to agree.
If it had not been for the real threat of
Sauron and the fact that Middle Earth was in such
jepardy, the question begs to be asked: Would
Galadriel have offered any assistance to the
Fellowship?
I don't think she would.
She might let them pass dough.
Hard to say if she would. One of Boromir's
objections to going into Lorien in the first place
was that no one who ever entered Lorien came out
unscathed.
Aragorn's retort to that was: Say not
unscathed, but if you say unchanged, maybe you will
speak the truth.
Mmm that makes me wonder
Why did Galadriel helped the Fellowship
in the first place
I don't think the same could be said for
Rivendell.
The Elves were leaving anyway
Not all the Elves were leaving. The elves
did love Middle Earth and all of her nature. If
Sauron got control, what would happen to ME?
Oh...I thought they were all leaving
My mistake
I don't think even if she was leaving for
the Grey Havens that she would want to see ME left
in the hands of such an evil lord as Sauron.
We really do not know which Elves stayed.
Tolkien doesn't tell us.
I have to think about this alot
Wait a sec
Eru wanted Men to be left in charge of
Middle Earth. He would want the Elves to do what
they could to help. I believe that the reason for
the Elvish blood line in Aragorn's family was to
strengthen Men to take on this role
I agree
Anyway, the chapter ends on a very postive
note. Haldir removes the blindfold from Gimli's
eyes, bows to him and asks for his pardon. "Look on
us now with friendly eyes." The rift between the
Elves and the Dwarves is about to be brought to a
close.
Next week we will discuss the next 2
chapters: The Mirror of Galadriel and Farewell to
Lorien.
Smile Smilie
End of #bilbos-study buffer Sun Apr 13 18:54:33 2003
Please Note:
There will not be a class on Easter Sunday, April 20th.

On April 27th we will discuss the next 2 chapters from FOTR: Galadriel's Mirror and Farewell to Lorien.

See you in bilbos-study at 9 pm GMT (4 pm ET) on April 27th.

Start of #bilbos-study buffer: Mon Apr 28 06:55:08 2003
* Now talking in #bilbos-study
* ChanServ sets mode: +o Rednell
* ChanServ changes topic to 'This is the Planet-Tolkien
Classroom. If there is not a class going one right
now then Please visit our general chatroom #Tolkien.
We would love to meet you. (Rednell) (Rednell)

*
soooo, what's today's topic?
Hi Asteroth
hi there Grondmaster!
hi Asteroth
hi Nell
Mirror of Galadriel and Farewell to Lorien
ok

hello Ikarus
G'day Ikarus
not many people there today Grondmaster
okay
looks like you'll be preaching to the
choir again Nell Smile Smilie
so it would seem
but, hey, the choir may learn something, or
I may learn something from the choir.
I always do
Yo Calenthang
welcome Cale.
heya brother!
Thank you teacher
Thank you bro! Smile Smilie
well, I think we shall begin.
I don't think I need to go over the rules as
everyone is very familiar with them, correct?
correct Nell
There is a lot in the chapter "Mirror of
Galadriel" so I am not sure we will get to Farewell
to Lorien.
anyway, does anyone recall the the name of
the city at the centre of Lorien where Galadriel
resides?
Caras Galadhon
Caras Galadhon?
to enter they had to go around the outside
of the city, why?
only one gate
where was the gate?
south side
correct
Haldir told the Fellowship that the gate
does not face northward
Who welcomed each member of the fellowship?
The Lord Celeborn
right
feel free to jump in here guys
How did you find his attitude towards Gimli?
good sense of humor
frindly at first
rather forced and cool friendly, I thought.
well it was a Dwarf being welcomed
afterall, so that was to be expected
hadn't happened in centuries
Welcome Gimli, son of Gloin. It is long
indeed since we saw one of Durin's folk in Caras
Galadhon. But today we have broken our long law. May
it be a sign that though the world is now dakr
better days are in hand, and that friendship shall
be renewed between our peoples.
yes, exactly.
this greeting did seem friendly at first
glance.
But changed when they later discussed the
Balrog.
* Asteroth (Infernal_K@14055a3b.14055a74.195.174.imsk)
Quit (Quit: Think not...Do!)
Who did Celeborn hold responsible for the
release of the Balrog?
The Dwarves who had delved to deeply in
Moria looking for mithril.
yes
yes
When telling Galadriel what happened to
Gandalf, I find it interesting how Aragorn relates
the event.
Alas! Gandalf the Grey fell into Shadow. He
remained in Moria and did not escape.
he does not say that Gandalf was killed or
died in battle with the balrog
Yes, he didn't say he died there
at these words all the Elves in the hall cried
aloud in grief...
Insight on Aragorn's part?
he was just lost to the fellowship
that is correct, Vera.
insight on Aragorns part or the
postAuthorID's, which he did quite often I think
Celeborn says here that Gandalf fell from
wisdom into folly, going needlessly into the net of
Moria.
gave us single word premonitions
yes, the postAuthorID left us many clues as to
what would happen, but we get so caught up in the
story we miss them
Galadriel did not agree with Celeborn,
however.
No, she didn't blame Gimli for the
actions of his Uncles and fathers before hiom
He would be rash indeed that said that
thing, said Galadriel gravely. needless were none of
the deeds of Gandalf in life's. Those that followed
him knew not his mind and cannot report his full
purpose. But however, it may be with teh guide, the
followers are blameless
exactly, Grondy.
nor any of the Fellowship, including Pippin
who threw the rock down the well.
It would seem here that Galadriel is saying
that this act of Gandalf's is a necessay part of the
quest to defeat the Dark Lord.
If our folk had been exiled long and far from
Lothlorien, who of the Galadhrim, even Celeborn the
Wise, would pass nigh and would not wish to look
upon their ancient home, though it had becomean
abode of dragons?
It was, as we shall see in the next book
necessary
yes, Vera. That statement certainly seems as
if Celeborn does hold the Dwarves responsible and
had he known, he would have stopped the Fellowship
from entering Moria.
yes, it does come in the next book,
hopefully we will remember this part of the first
book when we hit it.
Gimli was very taken by Galadriel's defence
of the dwarves.
And she spoke to him in the language of
the Dwarves too
[Gimli] looked up and met her eyes, and it
seemed to him that he looked into the heart of an
ememy and saw there love and understanding.
yes, Grondmaster. That impressed him too.
Gives a whole new outlook on Love Thy Enemy,
doesn't it?
Galadriel had used her time to grow in
wisdom rather than harboring vindication
yes, Grondmaster.
Interesting how wisdom can only come to
those who do not hold onto bitterness
Celeborn seemed to have become a bit bitter
with age yes
Yes it is interesting indeed
I see this scene as Galadriel's words
changing Celeborn's heart.
I think his heart changes from the bitter
heart to a more humble one. He asked Gimli to
forget his harsh words.
Well, he was supposed to be wise, so he
probably learned the lesson she was teaching then
and there
I do think his eyes were opened.
Bearing grudges wasn't going to help
defeat the Dark Lord
They needed to pull together; a
minature Last Alliance
bearing grudges only makes it more
difficult to defeat the Dark Lord.
yes, and they had to denounce all that is
evil, grudges, prejudices, jealousies, pride....
I think it was clear that Aragorn brought
them to Lorien in hopes that Galadriel would advise
them on how to proceed. But was she forthcoming
with advise?
and Galadriel's look into each of the
Fellowship members heart to see what of those were
present
which was not very comfortable for any of
them because then they themselves could also see
what was in their hearts.
her advice was another case of neigh
and sheep
oops sorry
Only Aragorn and Legolas could endure her
stare. Could that be from their Elvish blood?
yes, her advise was definitely very similar
to Gildor's.
Legolas was still young and nieve and
Aragorn she already knew
So she didn't check them?
perhaps, that sounds like a good reason.
no, she checked them; they just didn't
have anything to hide
Oh
good point, grondy. Boromir wanted to
return to Gondor, the Hobbits wanted to return to
the Shire
they weren't filled with as much awe
either
talk about an exercise in self-awareness
We also see Legolas and Gimli start to bond
a fast friendship in Lorien. Legolas does not stay
with the others, but takes Gimli with him during
the day.
Aragorn was filled with "What do I do
now, I wasn't supposed to be the leader, but that
was just doubt, not something bad.
Aragorn was definitely floundering at this
point. His self confidence was pretty much shot.
And this is really all we see of Aragorn in
this chapter. We will see in Farewell to Lorien,
how Aragorn gains more confidence.
What did sam see in the mirror of Galadriel?
There appears to be only you and me Grondy.
Frodo lieing by the wayside
onder a cliff
and the shire being ruined
yes, and the trees in the Shire being cut
down and the mill replaced by a red brick building.
Boy, this definitely brings to mind the changes
that would have been taking place in England at the
time.
the mill torn down and replaced by a
smoking brick building
I think it was very sad, however, that the
mirror actually robs Sam of his innocent facination
with the elves.
and the Gaffer trundling down the path
with his belongings in a cart
He sees the mirror as Elvish magic and
wants no more of it.
but the mirror may show what is, or
what will be, or what may not be depending on our
actions
so said Galadriel
or words to that effect
this is true, but nonetheless, would be
very frightening to Sam as he would not know which
it is.
Quite, he wanted to go home desparately
then
The irony is that if he did abandon Frodo
to investigate the vision in the mirror, he would
surely make it a reality.
So he chose to go with Frodo and take
the long rode home
road*
The mirror was very dangerous, as Galadriel
noted. It almost seems to be an instrument of
darkness
just as is science
for not giving counsel, Galadriel actually
does in a implied way.
it all depends how we use it
as with all fortune telling?
What Frodo sees definitely seems to have
been influenced by the Ring.
except when he sees the old man
or am I miss-remembering that event
who he does not recognize
yes, he does see a wizard in white and does
not know if it is Saruman or Gandalf. Which is
interesting since he believes Gandalf is dead.
could be Saruman or Gandalf, or anyone;
but later on it may become clear in retrospect
as does all the visions which have taken
place so far in the book.
Frodo also sees Galadriel's ring, Nenya, at
this point. But Sam cannot see it and does not know
what they are talking about.
which may mean what is shown in the
mirror are just part of the plan, part of destiny
He also sees the Eye in the mirror.
It was watching him?
All Sam saw was the strlight through
her finfgers
No, the Eye could not see Frodo. Galadriel
could see what Frodo saw, but did she see it
through the mirror or Frodo's mind?
it was watching for him and for
Galadriel, for she said she could see it too
In his mind I think
"I know what it is that you saw for it's
in my mind as well"
Movie quote
and book quote too
Fun
I perceived the Dark Lord and know his mind
or all of his mind that concerns the Elves.
So does this indicate that the Dark Lord
was causing Frodo's vision of the Eye?
How did you read this?
Is that question directed to me?
at anyone who has an opinion.
I thought it was that it was just
Frodo's perception, not really the Dark Lord seeing
through the eye at that moment
I think I agree with Grondmaster
Why would the eye want to be seen if it
can not see Frodo
which would then mean that Galadriel would
be seeing Frodo's mind.
Yes
To frighten the Ringbearer?
Yes it could
no, to ease his burden of seeing it
well, I think it worked. What does Frodo
try to do with the Ring?
give her the ring
Give it to Galadriel
What would happen if Galadriel had
possession of the Ring?
Ho ho
Mwahahaha
Now that is something we don't want to
know
Imagine a great elf like her corrupted
by the ring
She would become a Dark Lordess
are you saying an evil queen would be more
horrifying than a dark lord?
Absolutely
Does she accept the Ring?
No
no she passes the test
and a great test it was, too
just as a little background, for we have
not been told about this test in LOTR, Grondy, do
you know what this test is?
and the importance of passing it.
to give up her lifelong search for
power, which is why she left Valinor in the first
place
when it was finally offered to her, in
her wisdom, she rejected it and thus was able to
return to Valinor, into the West
thanks
But isn't that a bit wrong?
how, Cale?
She had left Valinor along with Feanor
and his sons in search of a kingdom where she could
be the supreme ruler
She was part of the rebellion
She sees the ring just for a minute and
Fordo is bearing it this whole time(realizing it's
power) and he still resists
as a result she was banned from returning
to Valinor.
I am probably completely wrong about this
Oh, you are correct about Frodo's
resistance.
I am puzzled as to why Tolkien never gives
any background into Galadriel's test in LOTR. He
gives just about every other bit of history of ME
Yes strange indeed
By resisting the Ring,Galadriel was
redeemed and the ban was lifted.
But she saw it just for a second
That is why I asked Grondy to explain it
here, so those who are reading it will know what it
is all about.
He was still developing her story,
according to young Chris's comments in UT
I had to read the Silmarillion to find out.
oh, well that would make sense,
Grondmaster.
Tolkien had to different times or
reasons for her leaving Valinor
two*
It does give us one bit of insight into the
Ring, I think. Even though Sauron put part of his
spirit into the Ring, another bearer with powers
could weild its power.
but that has no bearing on the story at
hand other than what comes ant the end
The evil that was devised long ago works on
in many ways, whether Sauron himself stands or
falls.
So it would seem that the Ring could
survive without Sauron, but Sauron could not
survive if the Ring was destroyed.
Right, that evil would be transfered to
the bearer over time if worn too long
Making it equally dangerous in Galadriel's
hands.
That must have been a terrifying experience
for Frodo, however, he would see how vital his
quest was
I definitely think Frodo was a lot wiser
about what they were facing.
and thus PJ's white witch presentation
of her
it was effective.
Frodo had heard the tales of the old
days and knew about the Morgoth and Sauron of old
And if Gandalf had been worried and
chosen not to take the ring, then the thing was
dire indeed
anyway that concludes The Mirror of
Galadriel. As I thought, it took all our time.
Yes, I think the Ring most definitely had a
will of its own
it was a deep pool for such a shallow
basin
for sure.
I am smiling

End of #bilbos-study buffer Mon Apr 28 06:55:08 2003

Start of #bilbos-study buffer: Sun May 04 19:09:02 2003
* Now talking in #bilbos-study
* ChanServ sets mode: +o Rednell
* ChanServ changes topic to 'This is the Planet-Tolkie
n Classroom. If there is not a class going one right
now then Please visit our general chatroom #Tolkien.
We would love to meet you. (Rednell) (Rednell)

I am going to go over the rules first, then
we will begin. We are going to discuss the last 3
chapters of FOTR.
No smilies, No private conversations as it
distracts the person you are talking with
no actions
* Rednell demonstrates an action
In the chapter Farewell to Lorien, Aragorn
is now the leader of the Fellowship but he does not
have any clear plan as to how to procede.
Do you think Gandalf had any plan beyond
Lothlorien?
he always seemed to have it all sorted out
I think he had to belive Aragorn
was a capable guide.
I think he wanted to compare notes with
Celborn and Galadriel before he made them.
Grondmaster: I must go with your theory
He had to feel like something is
going to happen. But basicly I don't think he had a
plan.
I think that is a distinct possibility
Grondy, especially since they very much wanted to
speak to Gandalf
* Ikarus was about the say the same thing
No actions please Iky
As we already know, there was no obligation
for any of the Fellowship to stay the course.
sorry, I always forget
Celeborn says "But whether they stay or go,
none can be sure of peace."
Do you think it would be more difficult for
any of them to leave now then it would have before
they went into Moria?
* Arokh (BernerBot@6ca5f082.14055a96.195.24.imsk) has
joined #Bilbos-Study
I am sorry
welcome
And if they stay in Lorien they will be
called upon to fight at the end
Would be much harder to find their way
home as the Mountains are in theeir road home
I think they knew they would have to fight.
I think they have to decide whether to fight with
the other free peoples of ME or to accompany Frodo
on a quest with very low odds of success
Celeborn could see that the Fellowship, as
a group, did not know what to do.
What did he offer them?
boats, so that they could postpone
their decission until the Great Falls of Roaros.
right, Grondmaster.
What an apt name
'Boats may make your journey less tiresome
for a while. Yet they will not give you counsel in
the end you must leave them and the River, and turn
west - or east
iven if I spelled it wrong
Why do you think Aragorn was so grateful to
Celeborn?
he did not like Celeborn telling him what to
do, he was the leader of the company
oops sorry, I thought you said ungrateful
he did not know this area of ME, he needed help
"Time, give me more time."
I agree Grondy. Aragorn did need more
time. This was not a leadership role he really
wanted to take on and he was not sure how to
proceed.
He was winging it, playing it by ear.
As the Fellowship spent their last night in
Lothlorien, they tried to sort out amongst
themselves a course of action, but to no avail.
Frodo was becoming increasingly wary of Boromir.
Why is this?
galadriel warned him about someone in the
fellowship. frodo thought that had to be him
he sensed that Boromir alone was wary of
Galadriel
Boromir kept staring at Frodo when
Frodo wasn't looking.
yes, I think that Frodo was "inheriting"
some of the wisdom of Galadriel and Gandalf.
Frodo could sense Boromir's stares.
I don't think Frodo was ever too sure of
Boromir to begin with
why do you say that, Sam?
As most of us often can feel someone
staring at us.
he seemed too proud and hasty
and was always in a sort of competition with
Aragorn, whom Frodo did like
that is very preceptive.
thank you
What is the mood as the Fellowship get
ready to leave?
fear of the future.
good, LadyBlue
Sad, but resolved that they must go on.
yes, Grondy
wishing they could stay, not wanting to
accomplish their task
Tolkien uses the term "Heavy hearted"
especially Gimili
What gifts do they get to help them with
their task?
* Arokh (BernerBot@6ca5f09e.14055a96.195.24.imsk) has
joined #Bilbos-Study
wb Cale
I am sorry
we are discussing the gifts
what gifts were given to whom?
* Arokh is now known as Calenthang
Legolas got a galadhrim bow
sheath for Anduril to Aragorn
Sam got a box of dirt and mallorn seeds
Frodo got the light of Earendil
Gimli got a lock of hair
which would keep it from breaking in
battle
the sheath that is
Merry and Pippin?
Pippin and merry and boromir got belts I think
and they all got elven cloaks
correct, Sam
Someine wrote his homework
someone*
and I think Aragorn got a jewel from Arwen
very good Sam
and each boat had rope
one coil for each of them
correct.
and to eat?
lembas?
cram +
What is lembas?
elven bread I belive.
correct, LadyBlue
fortified food bars
good analogy, Grondmaster
like pemican
well, it seems that they are well prepared.
it just seems.
if you ask me.
* Ikarus (ikarus@14055af7.14055af0.62.163.imsk) has
left #bilbos-study
At what point in the journey on the Great
River, must the Fellowship make the decision?
the rapids; whether to portage or die?
when they settle (i don't know
the word) in a bank, When Frodo and sam take off.
What does Sam see in the River?
danger.
A great obsticle.
a log with eyes
and web feet
log with eyes, and paddling feet
I apolagise I't's been a while
since I read the book.
Frodo has his suspicions, why does he not
immediatedly go to Aragorn with this information?
and who does everyone think that was?
yes, who could it possibly be?
I'd say because he only suspects.
Not guilthy till proven otherwise.
I don't know the why Frodo didn't
niether do I, didn't Frodo see it in Moria too?
that is a good point, Lady.
yes that is a good point
but Aragorn had known about Gollum before. he
just didn't tell anyone
Perhaps Frodo is now feeling pity towards
Gollum, as did Bilbo, and cannot fulling comprehend
the danger Gollum presents them
who is there to tell?
And after all, Aragorn knew about him
following in Moria and ever since
good point Sam, yes, Aragorn also knew and
kept it to himself
Aragorn didn't want to make Frodo afraid
I think they all underestimate Frodo a lot
yes, Grondy, I think you are correct.
Aragorn was protecting Frodo, but was Frodo
protecting Gollum?
In a way.
Maybe he didn't want to belive it
was him?
I think this is the first of many ocassions
that we seem Frodo actually protecting Gollum. I
believe Frodo does sense that Gollum has a very
real part to play in the destruction of the Ring
Gandalf told him as much
Probably, because if Legolass had seen
him he could have been dead, or maybe he did and
Aragorn said he wanted Gollum captured alive
why didn't Aragorn tell them about Gollum then?
Perhaps Aragorn didn't sense his danger and didn't
see the need to kill him right off
I think it was because he
might've been in denial. After all Gollum was a
threat. He wanted a ring more than anything. Witout
the ring he was not a being.
To want him captured alive, does not
necessarily mean that he will be captured alive.
Gollum may endanger one of the Fellowship, in which
case, Aragorn's orders go out the window
Yes, Gandalf did hint that Gollum had a
greater part to play in the story
yes
I also think Aragorn senses Gollum's
importance as well, which is why he may have kept
this information from the others
Who ambushes the Fellowship?
Where does it take place?
orcs as the fellowship is caught in a
current the brings them near the eastern shore
good Grondy.
the Elven cloaks protected them from
the arrows
Sam had a thought which I found very
interesting. "The River seems set on taking us
right into their arms."
The River being personified, as Tolkien
does very often with nature.
and also that nature seems to be against
them again, as in previous situations.
that was because Sam had a natural
distrust of flowing water
yes. I suppose to a hobbit like Sam things like
rivers and mountains will seem more like giants
because he's unused to them
I think the threats of nature have been
very real in their journeys so far.
Rustics are often supersticious--this
is a stereotype
The trees and the pathways in the Old
Forest, the Carahadras
birds used as spies by Saruman
and now the current of the River seems to
be delivering the boats right into the hands of the
enemy.
good point
yes. Sam thought they'd be more able to escape
on land, the river was just flowing it was like
they had no control over where they were going
Legolas cries" Elbereth Gilhonil", why?
And he didn't have any because they
wouldn't even let him have a paddle
yes Grondy
A Nazgul?
that is a possibility, but never mentioned.
The shaddow and the fear lead me to the
idea.
it is because he sees how clear the stars are
The cry to Elbereth Gilthonil, was for
courage and strength to face this winged creature
that brought fear to the entire Fellowship.
something came from the southeast and
blotted out the clear stars
Coming from the southeast, certainly would
make one think of a Nazgul on a winged steed.
yes
Again, Frodo's wisdom keeps him from
explaining what he believes the creature to be,
even though some thought it was a Balrog, he did
not.
And Legolas shot at it and it disapeared
Why was it better that Frodo not tell the
others what he though?
thought*
So they wouldn't be afraid?
Boromir might have questioned him
I would think it would confirm that the
Dark lord knows where to find them and they would
feel doomed.
yes good point. no one in the Fellowship knew
much about Nazgul, so they wouldn'tve known how to
fight them
if they assumed it was something else they
might have thought they could shoot it out of the
sky
If The Dark Lord knew that much, he
would have flooded the area with flying Nazgul,
unless maybe his stable was limited to only two of
four
they had never been allowed to fly over the
River before though had they?
The members of the Fellowship would not
know that, Grondy. Just the fact that the Dark Lord
could find them would be frightening.
agreed, though the Nazgul had been over
the river since earlier in the Autumn
And the Fellowship didn't know they
could fly
I think this is a case of what they don't
know won't hurt them.
yes, that would have ben frightening (Iearning
they could fly)
wouldn't hurt them mentally at least
After the creature is felled then the
Fellowship continue on their journey until they
reach the Pillars of the Kings.
the Argonoth
precisely
Aragorn bucks up at this while the rest
of the fellowship become subdued
Frodo notices a change in Aragorn.
Aragorn is instilled with a sense of
confidence
When I read this part, I thought, yes, that
is why Celeborn gave them the boats and sent them
down the Great River.
I felt this was the point where Aragorn was
finally ready to take up his destiny.
when he saw the great statues of his
forefathers (actually one forefather and one
foreuncle) id filled him with something like if
they could do it mabe I can too.
yes. I think he was anticipating going back to
Minas Tirith
although, it seemed short lived as he still
had to decide whether to go east or west.
And the Argonoth was the gateway to
Gondor, the remaing part of his kingdom
yes. I think he knew Frodo would chose to go
East, but whether or not Aragorn would go East or
West was still up in the air
I agree Sam, I think Frodo's destiny was
already decided and Aragorn knew that.
as did Sam
not Boromir, apparently.
What happens between Frodo and Boromir?
Boromir knew; he just wouldn't accept
the fact
yes I think you're right Grondy
what would Boromir not accept, Grondy?
Boromir at first expected to be able to daunt
Frodo with reason (like he tried at the Council)
but soon becomes alarmed because he sees Frodo
knows what he's doing
He tried to change Frod's mind
as in, what Boromir is doing
It definitely seems like a madness takes
over him, and I feel sympathy for him.
Boromir wouldn't accept that Frodo was
going to take the ring to Mordor rather than to
Minas Tirith
But this is the action, I believe that
makes Frodo realize that he has to make this
journey alone.
it is like Boromir sees that he will never be
a King like Aragorn, he will never get to save his
country, he is not good enough
yes. I think Frodo was almost denying Boromir's
behaviour too
That is how he feels after he fails Frodo,
Sam
When he saw he couldn't talk Frodo out
of it nicely, he became filled with Ring caused
anger
I felt that the Ring seemed to be trying to
get control of the quest
He tried to take the ring for his own
precious thing to become a great king in is own
right
it would give him the power to rule men
who would flock to his banner
But he realizes what he has done and this
is where I felt such pity for him.
But unlike Galadriel, he failed the test
I don't think he did fail the test.
I think had he lived he would have failed
but he died, he saw where he went wrong, then
he died, he did not fail
well, he actually dies in the next book.
True, he did realize this after he had
scared Frodo off, when it was too late to make
ammends because Frod had fled.
yes sorry Nell
np
The end of Book I shows the complete
loyalty of Sam towards Frodo
he did not completely pass the test, as
Galadriel did. but he didn't completely fail
because he had no time to carry out evil actions
yes
He is feeling very bad about his
behavior when he returns to the rest of the
fellowship
yes, Grondy, that is why I feel he did pass
the test
Okay, when he tripped and the ring
wasn't close to him anymore he came to his senses
and saw what he had done and we can assume he
wouldn't have tried to get the ring anymore if
Frodo returned then?
yes I think he would not have.But Frodo still
would not have trusted him, which would be sad
well, I never thought of it that far. I
think eventually, he would chose death over the
Ring.
I will give him the benefit of the
doubt and hope that would jhave been the case.
My weakness is seeing only the good in
people, I guess.
there is good in people. I think that is what
boromir showed, he had a large amount of bad in
him, but he was really a good person
And so the breakup of the Fellowship begins
here.
I agree Sam, I want to think Boromir
learned his lesson.
So he came back and everyone went off
nilly-willy looking for Frodo
Boromir was told to follow Merry and
Pippin
Aragorn took off after Sam
but Sam couldn't keep up
and Sam didn't want to go with the others
anyway, he wanted to go with Frodo
and Sam's pracical mind said Frodo
couldn't swim across the river so, Back to the boats
Frodo seem to have a weight lifted from his
shoulders when he made the decision to go on alone.
Why do you think he would feel this way?
he knew that he was going to do. whatever came
after, atleast he knew his path
He wouldn't feel any responsibility for
the deaths of his friends if they didn't follow him
to theirs
I think both points are very valid.
yes I agree Grondy
His decision was made, the others were yet
to make theirs.
And Sam was about to make his.
he didn't count on anyone wanting to go with him
I think Sam knew all along what his was
That surprises me, I would think he would
realize that Sam would never leave him.
Sam's was always made, he must follow
Frodo, that's why Gandalf chose him
yes I thought so too.
I think that Frodo just was too involved in his
own difficulties to think about Sam much. Only that
Sam would be sad when he was gone
No, Frodo knew Sam meant to follow him,
he just tried to make it not happen to protect Sam
I think you are right, Grondy
yes that's a good point Grondy
Frodo felt a responsibility for all the other
hobbits
But isn't it encouraging to know that in
all that was happening, loyalty was so prevalent in
Sam's decision.
Yes, that is also why he left The Shire.
well it is good because if Sam had had wisdom,
he wouldn't have gone
I think that is why I found the ending of
the book was not completely dark.
me too
ahh, but I think Sam had much more wisdom
than when he left the shire.
yes he did. but if he had been really wise and
known about Mordor a lot, he might not have gone
Yes, Sam's loyalty and that they were
going together was a ray of hope in that dark hour.
exactly Grondy.
yes indeed
and on that note, we will officially finish
Fellowship of the Ring.
we're on book 2 already?
it doesn't seem like we've done that many
classes! but then I've missed quite a few...
Next week we will discuss chapters 1 & 2 of
Two Towers.
all right
Went fast, didn't it Sam?
It was at this point I had to wait two
weeks before I could buy the remaining volumes.
yup

End of #bilbos-study buffer Sun May 04 19:09:02 2003
Thanks for the class Nell. It was wonderful. I am glad I finally got to attend. Good job, I look forward to discussing TTT! Big Smile Smilie