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Here is the chat log from May 11th.
Join us on May 18th at 9pm UK (4pm ET) for discussion on Chapter 3: The Uruk-hai and Chapter 4: Treebeard.




Start of #bilbos-study buffer: Sun May 11 19:01:40 2003
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Hi Alcroth!
hi alcroth
hello! :o)
How are you this evening?
We will be starting our discussion in about
10 minutes.
Hi Grondy
Goodafternoon Rednell
hi Grondmaster!
Hi Asteroth and alcroth
welcome Lady_Of_The_Golde
hehe
Hi Lady_Of_The_Golde
hello
hi Lady Golde
Before we begin, I just want to go over a
few courtesies (rules, if you will)
during the discussion please do not use
actions
what's today's topic?
* Rednell demonstrates an action
please do not use smilies
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distracts them from the discussion
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* ChanServ sets mode: +o Mellie
This week we are discussing chapters 1 and
2 of The Two Towers
hi Mellie
hello
When we finished The Fellowship of the Ring
last week, we left Frodo and Sam making their
choice.
What was Frodo's choice and what incident
pushed him to make that decision?
he chose to go to Mordor himself
not with the fellowship
because bormoir attacked him
He decided to go to Mordor alone due
to the fact that Boromir had been corrupted by the
ring
Right.
but then sam came
because of the rings power over boromir
And Boromir paid dearly for his mistake.
and he didn't want to endanger the
others
That is where we pick up the story in The
Two Towers.
that is right
What happens to Boromir?
he was worried that the ring would corrupt
the others as well as boromir
He is slain by Uruks
he gets killed by orcs
as he tries to defend Merey and Pippin
Who is the first to find him?
I think that frodo had a really
hard choose to make and i hold him in high asteam
for it
Wasn't it Aragorn
Aragorn
Yes it was.
I agree with you Lady. It was a very
difficult choice for Frodo. He really thought and
expected that the company would go with him to
Mordor
What did Boromir tell Aragorn?
and to still feel the death of
Gandalf
What had happened with Frodo and what
had happened to Merry and Pippin
that he tried to take the ring
that he had tried to take the ring from
Frodo
I think the entire Fellowship was still
reeling from the loss of Gandalf
boromir told aragorn about what happened
with frodo
and that he was very sorry
That he tried to take the ring and for
Aragorn the defend Minas Tirith
And asked Aragorn to save his city
and that he wanted Aragorn to go
to Minas Tirith
yes, i had forgotten that part
and save the people of Gondor
Farewell Aragron! Go to Minas Tirith and
save my people. I have failed"
reunite them
"No, Boromir, you have won.
He had a very deep sense of failure. Do you
think this had anything to do with the way he died?
Yes very mush so
I think until then, the ring was
perhaps giving him a false hope
I agree Val
not only did he try to take the
ring but also could not stop the4m taking merry and
pippin
But there had to be some intrinsic good in
him that made him so remorseful.
but he tried valiantly in the latter
effort
Yes
He was a good man, but the ring was
too strong for his ambitions to ignore
yes, he died a brave and honourable death,
even if he did not believe so.
yes he did
It is also a very drawn out, detailed
death, perhaps the most in the whole book)
Aragorn responds to him: This is a bitter
end. Now the company is all in ruin. It is I that
have failed. Vain was Gandalf's trust in me."
yes, Val, it is. And deservedly do.
so*
A low ebb for Aeragorn too
I think that Aragorn is alway
hard on him self
I think this scene has been detailed so to
give a true sense of discouragement.
He was really missing Gandlaf's
council by then
yes, Lady. Aragorn has never felt really
prepared for his role in this.
I think he is scared of himself
yes i do too
He doesn't really no he has a lot
to do
I think he expected that the delay Celeborn
offered him would start to bring things together
and he would be able to make the right choices.
He started to feel more confident when they
went through the Argonath
Was Boromir and Faramir's dream so that
Boromir would be the catalyst to break the
fellowship?
He does make the right choices, he
just doesn't know it at the time
Yes
I agree with that
and neither do we as the reader Val. I
think Tolkien has done a good job of making us feel
the sense of failure that Aragorn and Boromir feel
At what level do you mean Grondy?
He has no faith in himself
Well as part of Eru's plan
Yes the odds certainly feel stacked
against the good guys all the way
Actually, for a short time he did, Lady. He
lost that confidence when Boromir died. I think he
also felt responsible for Boromir's betrayal.
They all would have wanted to go with
Frodo otherwise
I think it may have been... dreams
usually come from Eru for some reason
The party did have to split so Eru
probably gave them a prod in the right direction
Legolas points out to Aragorn he must
now make a choice
yes, whether he is ready to make the choice
or not.
To get Aragorn to quit feeling sorry
for himself
In fact the three of them spend quite a bit
of time dealing with just that.
Long enough to send Boromir on his way
Legolas seemed to be the practical one,
suggesting that the fallen be delt with first
rocks too far away and too heavy for a
cairn
So just dump him in the river
Gimli tries to pressure Aragorn's decision:
"We must be swift. He would not want us to linger"
give him a Vikings Funeral less fire
who was "he" who Gimli refers to.
Boromir
Yes, Boromir is my thought
more of an Anglo-Saxon funeral was it not.
Did they not bury their kings in their ships
They have found a few that have been
yes, it is a platitude that we use quite
often in an attempt to comfort.
Because it works, it is a comfort
yes, I just found it seemed strange coming
from Gimli
Legolas hadn't been around funerals
Gimli had as the dwarves were mortal
Dwarves usually revere their dead by
burying them in stone... After the Battle of
Azanulbizar however, there were too many dead so
they had to burn them... Gimli knew about getting
on with things in time of need
It is interesting that Legolas would be the
first to mention a funeral for Boromir
good point Val.
Legolas didn't want Boromir's body
eaten by the carrion, wild animals and birds
Which would also explain Gimli's impatience
when Aragorn was puzzling over the new race of Orc.
In fact, Aragorn seemed almost to be lost
in his thoughts. Would it be shock?
He was the one who the final decision
would lie with.. He hasd to be certain he was
making the right one
yes, and this he made clear to Gimli.
"But we must guess the riddles if we are to
chose our course rightly."
To which Gimli replies "Maybe there is no
right choice"
This just seems to reinforce the feeling of
despair
As the intention had been to go with
frodo all the way, it would be a really hard
decision to now leave them
but one they had to make.
Leaving mery and pippin however, was
something they could not contemplate
Frodo had departed of his own choice,
the other twio hadn't
I think Aragorn knew that Frodo's fate was
not in his hands.
that is a very good point, Val
And fokllowing Frodo could bring the
enemies eyes looking in that direction
Which is probably why this choice had been
made for them, grondy
I think Aragorn had seen virtues in
Frodo on this part of the journey that had not been
apparent in Bree
I do think that there was influence from
Eru in this
yes Val. Frodo had changed, especially
after his encounter with Galadriel.
they also realized that frodo was already
gone, and there was nothing left for the fellowship
to do.
I think Eru influenced the decision
at the council in the first place to include two
hobbits rather than teo elf lords
but that merry and pippin needed all the
help they could get
I agree, Val. and Aragorn made note of that
as well.
Once the decision was made to follow Merry
and Pippin, Aragorn was very driven.
i think Eru played a bigger role in it than
we realize while reading the books
true Aragorn was not going to fail again.
Yes Mellie... If you haven't read the
silmarillion, I don't think it would even be
apparent
he felt like he failed gandalf and frodo both
I agree Mellie, I didn't notice it until I
read the books again.
and possibly also that he failed arwen
and that was after reading the Silmarillion.
I can see why Tolkien wanted the Silmarillion to
be published first.
Aragorn wasn't going to fail at saving
the two hobbits for lack of trying
yes, i can understand that too.
However, I think the better decision was to
publish LOTR first.
I don't think the public was ready
for the Silmarillion, not htat it was ever finished
yeah, because if the sil had been published
first no one would have ever read LOTR
It appealed to more people and gave them an
appetite for more. After reading the Silmarillion,
you notice that you have missed so much in LOTR and
go back to re-read it.
yep
And the publishers wouldn't have given
LotR a chance after the Sil went down in flames
exactly.
no they would not have
but that isn't in TTT
anyway, back to the subject at hand
lol true
Legolas seems tireless in the pursuit.
yes he was
That's elves for you
and Dwarves have endurance
But stumpy legs
and strider has long gangly legs
but how could Aragorn manage the
journey?
even this was more than a dwarf could
endure. However, I think Gimli would have continued
until he dropped.
Because he was the hardiest man of
his age
Again they have to make a choice as to
whether to continue giving chase or rest for the
night.
In the North he didn't travel by horse
back he walked
Legolas and Gimli want Aragorn to chose.
"You give the choice to an ill chooser"
said Aragorn, "Since we passed through the Argonath
ny choices have gone amiss"
Aragorn was the ranger who could read
the trail, they couldn't
I found this statement very ironic. The one
point in the last part of FOTR where Aragorn felt
any confidence was when they passed through the
Argonath.
Arasgorn couldn't read it rightly at
night without moonlight
that is correct and that is something
Aragorn noticed that was strange about the sky
?
The stars were faint, the pale moon could
not be trusted and he was weary as no ranger should
be.
And Gimli was also very tired
He also noticed that there was something
that added speed to the Orcs run and he felt there
was an unseen barrier before them.
I still get the sense of failure here, or
at least the fear of failure.
Saruman's will?
Saruman's magic maybe
Mind you 125 miles is a long way to
run
"someone is using their will against us"
aragorn said
That is what Aragorn deduced.
even on a clear day
But I think we see help come from Eru
through Legolas here.
Legolas says, "Do not cast all hope away.
Tomorrow is unknown."
Then he sang in elvish and the white stars
opened up in the hard black vault above.
Varda maybe
I think so Val.
Legolas was quite practical here, he
had gained some wisdom in his 2000 plus years
Yes, but there seemed to be more than just
wisdom here.
There seemed to be some "magic" in his song.
Wisdom alone wouild not have made the
stars shine brighter
exactly
As I do not think it was mere coincidence
that the Riders of Rohan just happened along.
but it might have been enough for him
to sing his song as an enabler
yes, but someone had to hear his song and
respond
You can look at thi book as being
either a series of coincidences or Eru's interaction
that is where Eru cam in again
came*
isn't Elvish song a form of prayer?
I prefer to go with Eru's intervention.
From the Silmarillion, we know Eru
played a large part in reordering the world after
Melkor had messed it up
he allowed Varda and the others to hear
Legolas' song
Some Elvish songs are a form of prayer,
some a form of storytelling.
One of Varda's powers I believe, was
that she could here all what was said in middle
Earth
But I think the Valar are being very
careful not to interact directly with the free
people of Middle Earth
wouldn't prayer's have to come from some
kind of religion?? (which i think lotr didn't
have...)
Particularly with Men
I think "prayer" is definitely a spiritual
thing, not necessarily "religious"
But I think the O Elbereth-gilthonial
was an invocation
It had the power to drive away a
Nazgul
yes, it appears to be, as it is cried at
times of great need and despair.
Anyway, in this case it worked
What kind of a reception did Aragorn and
company receive from the Riders of Rohan?
At first they were thought to be spies
suspicsion
magic hid them from view
the riders made a ring around them ready to
fight them at any time
Elven magic
But they did not
The riders would have ridden pasr
unknowingly
Eomer was not a rash man
yes, Aragorn had to grab their attention.
That would have been the cloaks that
Galadriel had given them
Not, but he also did not believe in dreams
and legends
i think Eomer was curious too, and after he
had spoken to aragorn he took them for friends and
helped them even if his orders was the opposite
"Who are you and what are you doing
here?"
yes, Perwing, this is true. Just as Haldir
had to go against the laws of Lothlorien to allow
Gimli to enter the Golden Wood.
i guess they just made an impression on ppl
they met!!
This is a recurring theme in LOTR.
Or it is the work of Eru.
The puzzle pieces dovetailing together
again
If I remember correctly, was this not a
normally a place for the Riddermark to be roming
In addition, Eomer was perhaps the
only leader in Rohan not under the influence of
Grima
good point Val
For disobeying Theoden he had been
banished
and not pleased with the influence of
Saruman
was he banished in the book too??? i
thought that was something pj made up in the
movie...
No, I think Theoden had sent him away
oki, tnx
he was put in prison in the book
For hunting orcs I think
yea nell, but that was AFTER his encounter
with aragorn & co
correct
But he was away from Edoras without
permission, he had left it semi-defenceless
which is why he was in trouble when he
returned there
yup, but i just found that passage now, he
said he had to get back to Theoden asap. so i guess
he wasn't banished then??
and when he came back then grima made it so
he had to go to prison
Are we still connected?
i was just thinking the same...
I'm still here
sorry
Eomer has offered them horses.
why would he did this?
He wanted to aid them and they had
already ran 125 miles
He felt if he was to let them continue
he should at least aid them
He seemed very impressed by their endurance.
Wingfoot he called Aragorn
and he also had 3 free horses cause he lost
some men in the battle with the orcs..
whole loaf as opposed to half-a-loaf
in for a penny, in for a pound)
Eomer had asked one thing of Aragorn when
he gave him the horses. What was it>?
and he also wanted aragorn to come back to
edoras with the horses, so that eomer could prove
to theoden he had done right
Plus he had just given them the bad
news that pippin and merry had not been among the
orcs they had been peruing
think i kinda answered that nell
Pursuing*
I was actually looking for a very short
statement, a very significant one which brought to
an end the sense of failure.
Eomer: "Do not fail."
Aragorn: "I will not.")
At least Aragorn is starting to feel some
sense of power again.
Eomer calling him Lord may have helped
And we noticed this first when he drew his
sword and revealed his true identity to Eomer.
But Eomer's words gave me a sense that this
was a command not a request.
You can not make Aragorn's speach
without having it instill you with a sense of power
It was a command as far as the horses
went
Given what happened with Shadowfax, Eomer
was taking quite a risk
Eomer was putting his trust in Aragon's
sense of honor
I think he saw in Aragorn, hope for
Theoden
well that only show's how much he actually
trusted and belived in aragorn!
that is a good point, Perwing
and Val, I think you are correct.
As he would have done if Gandalf was
the one in question
He knew Rohan was in dire straits...
Here he had allies who were willing to fight
Be unable to lie, the Men of Rohan
could see deciet
Yes, he would have been looking out for the
best interests of Rohan
I definitely felt more uplifted at this
point in the chapter.
For the first time in ages the heros
have an army around them... you feel less vulnerable
Then they leave and find the pile of
smoldering orcs.
And I didn't think Tolkien would kill
off M & P after bringing them all this way.
Again a wise gift from the elves...
the cloaks had prevented the Rohirrim from seeing
them
No, I definitely had confidence that Merry
and Pippin had more to play in this story.
but Aragorn and friens could find no
clue at night
they saw something else that night, didn't
they...
However, it was clever of Tolkien to leave
their tale to follow this rendition of the tale.
so Gimli built a fire
yes, they did see something very
interesting that night, Perwing.
Saruman they believed
And Eomer had given them a description
of Saruman
are we absolutely sure who that was really??
Gandalf I think
No, as we learn later, it was probably
Saruman
My first thought was Gandalf, even on my
first reading of LOTR
Tolkien was still playing with us at
this time
i also thought so, but i've never been sure
yes, Val, he certainly was.
Always giving us some thread of hope.
and then taking it away.
Because we wanted Gandalf to return
from the dead
because the horses have escaped, which
means that Aragorn has failed Eomer.
* Mellie (klytemnest@903d3b31.dsl.eulstx.f55b92fc.net.
hmsk) Quit (Ping timeout)
Saruman's will at work again
or did the horses simply go to find
shadowfax??
No, the old man set them free
I don't think Gandalf wanted them to
go to Edoras without him
probably not, and that's why i think he
sent the horses to shadowfax..
That is an interesting thought, Val. I
never considered that.
(Gandalf tells us later it wasn't him,
as I remember.)
Could it have been someone else and not
Saruman?
We will have to wait until we get to that
chapter to find out.
I think Saruman was looking for his
orcs and their captives
The ring
quite possibly
They were overdue
Of course it may have been a
manifestation of Saruman, not his physical self
another good theory.
We will have to wait and see what
daylight brings a couple chapters from now.
well i just found the passage where gandalf
says: "well it sure wasn't me", so grondy is right
about that!
yes, we will.
and on that note, class dismissed.

End of #bilbos-study buffer Sun May 11 19:01:40 2003


Start of #bilbos-study buffer: Sun May 25 18:47:29 2003
* Now talking in #bilbos-study
* ChanServ sets mode: +o Rednell
* ChanServ changes topic to 'This is the Planet-Tolkie
n Classroom. If there is not a class going one right
now then Please visit our general chatroom #Tolkien.
We would love to meet you. (Rednell) (Rednell)
(Rednell[sleep])'
* ChanServ sets mode: +nt
well, shall we start and anyone who joins
us can.
well i'm ready..
Read you loud and clear
ok, rules first
there are just a few guidelines that we
follow in here that are a little different from our
general chatroom
no smilies.
no actions.
* Rednell demonstrates an action
please refrain from distracting other
members with private messaging.
Pretty strict.
other than that, just jump in with any
ideas that relate to the topic.
Bold statements allowed?
it is because it is hard to copy the
transcript afterwards.
no, Raven.
that would be similar to shouting.
2How about colors?
ok, we are reading the Two Towers and this
week we are discussing the chapters Uruk-hai and
Treebeard
nope raven
nope, just plain text, please
Last week we found that Aragorn, Gimli and
Legolas were trying to catch up with the Orcs who
had taken Merry and Pippin as prisoners.
We found their mood hopeless feeling that
the fates were against them.
So what?
They`ll prevail.
In this chapter Uruk-hai, we find out what
has happened to Merry and Pippin
I thing that stands out most in my mind is
that the Hobbits don't seem to have this feeling of
hopelessness, although their situation most
certainly seems much more hopeless
They do rely on their friends.
i always thought merry did, but not pippin..
It`s out of unexperience.
Why do you think there is such a difference
in the moods of the Hobbits and that of Aragorn and
Gimli?
pippin was the one trying to find a way to
escape
saruman's influece on aragorn and his
company
yes, the fact that Pippin continued to try
to find a way of escape proves that he had hope.
hello?
I`ll watch
I was more inclined to think it has
something to do with the nature of Hobbits.
I believe it has to deal with their
naivete.
Welcome Talija
dunno really Nell, i never thought Merry
was very optimistic when i read it..
Very good point, Raven
hi Smile Smilie
Merry was injured.
true
They are not experienced in the
battles with orks, so they think it`s not
impossible to get away from them.
but he certainly caught on to Pippin's
playing the orcs up against one another
well on this journey i think it's safe to
say that they wasn't experienced in anything
really..
Aragorn`s party, on other hand, is
too expereienced and thus - having pessimistic
approach.
I think Hobbits tend to be optismistic by
nature too.
They certainly are naive, no doubt about
that. Or they never would have tried so hard to be
included in the journey.
Aragorn's party was being influenced by
Saruman remember
yes, Raven, I agree
that's true Nell, if they knew what would
happen they would never have gone along
Nuh-huh-huh...
Not until they met him in woods.
before that too"!
Pippin does feel as if he has let everyone
down, more than just bad luck.
remember they "sensed" that someone put his
"will against them"...
That is a good point, Perwing.
Just usual ranting in medieval
style.
Aragorn and Legolas believed very strongly
in the fates.
but i too agree that the hobbit's natural
good mood and optimistic nature helped pippin not
to give up when captured
and we will see Tolkien bring this into
play again later in these next 2 chapters.
The fact that Pippin made sure he left
undisturbed footprints and the brooch, show that he
was confident Aragorn would be trying to rescue them
yea by now they are getting to know aragorn
quite well and knows he's not one to abandon his
friends
We also find in this chapter the Aragorn
has reasoned very accurately who has taken Pippin
and Merry.
Where did these Orcs come from?
well the orcs were heading straight for
Isengard so that might not have been too hard to
guess..
both Isengard and Lugburtz
but Aragorn deduced that the party were not
comprised of just Isengarders.
there were 3 races of Orcs, all with their
own agenda.
Question: what means "comprised" (sorry)
Breeds, not races...
oki
thank-you Raven
As for race, they are all elves.
except the Uruk-hai
not true raven, but another discusson!
*smiles*
comprised means made up of
oki thnx.
Where did the 3 breeds of Orcs come from?
misty mountains
Ok.
what was their purpose?
Uruk-haii is a crossbreed between
human and ork.
Aragorn recogniced them from the bodies
boromir had left behind
correct Raven and Perwing
Can I say something off topic?
why were the Misty Mountain orcs there?
They wished to avenge.
to revenge what had happened in the mines
yep.
so they only wanted to kill the Hobbits and
that would satify them
yup
"i wanna kill the hobbit's and then go
north again" the leader says..
right.
what about the Uruk-hai?
Not exactly...
They knew hobbits had some magic
thing.
not the ones from the misty mountains
Uruk-haii wished to get hobbits to
Saruman as soon, as possible...
they knew too.
yea, unhurt. but they never knew why!
I don't think they knew.
I am looking for a reference, but I may
have to get back to you on that
There was a bit where they suggest
to search hobbits and both leaders object harshly.
they didn't, but some suspected that they
had "something" of value because they were not
allowed to ransack them. both the isengarders and
the ones from lugburtz had been told that
that is how Pippin was able to trick
Sauron's Orc
That`s what I`ve told you.
They knew they had something, but
not what exactly.
but I don't think they believe the object
has any magic quality
well that's unfortunately wrong..
sorry, I just found the reference, you are
correct, Raven.
they just ask if they should check if they
had something the orcs could use themselves. they
were never told by saruman or sauron about this. it
was just a suspicion they got cause they wasn't
supposed to be killed
For a moment Pippin was silent. Then
suddenly in the darkness he made a noise in his
throat: gollum, gollum. Nothing, my precious. he
added
That was how Pippin peaked the curiousity
of the Orc that he tricked.
which would indicate indeed that he did
know something about "precious"
yup, but still doesn't mean the orc knows
anything, it just got him curious..
He could have done that in other ways, but
gollum and precious seem to be key here.
i think the key was the sentence pippin
made before that one..
"i do not think you will find it that way"
"it's not easy to find.."
those sentences made the orc reeeally
curious"
indeed, curious
of course the orc being from lugburtz could
have heard the word "precious" before, when they
were interigating Gollum, but he still probably
wouldn't know what it was..
we don't know how much information Gollum
revealed during his torture, he may have spoken of
the Ring.
well i wouldn't think all the orcs of
mordor would be told what he had said anyway..
definitely not.
and Grishnakh was ready to kill the Hobbits
when the Riders of Rohan arrived.
but anyways, this is getting to be just
guessing from our side so let's just go on..
also true
here is where Tolkien mentions fate again:
it was aimed with skill, or guided by fate, and it
peirced his right hand
we could say that it was fate that he was
killed, so it was fate that Merry and Pippen went
into Fangorn and met Treebeard
Right...
Yes Sam
Blame the fate for all that.
we could say that the whole lotr was just
faith, but i for one does not belive it to be!
Is fate another term for Eru
Of course, valars are not involved
a teensy bit...
it could be.
I, actually, believe the Valar are involved
all the way.
though I tend to think not
well in the sense that faith rules things
in ME, yes i would say that faith = work of Eru
if fate=coincedence, then it is smaller
than Eru, if fate=inveitable, it could be Eru
I believe that Tolkien uses the term Fate
as meaning the work of Eru
that's why my belifs are more luck/unluck
and coincidents
and the nature of the characters more than
just help from "devine spirit" like Eru (or anyone
else for that matter!)
In fact, we see little evidence of 'faith"
Aragorn was Aragorn because of himself and
his heritage, not cause Eru said so. that's my
belifs!
Guys, one quistion...
What can I do?
whatever you want and are capable of!
The whole idea of faith contradicts
my point of view.
yes Perwing I can see what you mean. And I
agree with you
Aragorn has Elvish blood and I believe this
was in preparation for the change of responsibilty
of Middle Earth
everything cannot simply be fate...that
would mean we have no free will, and we can see
that in LotR people do have free will
Aragorn has maia-blood too, but i do
seriously not think that that matters at all!!
good point Sam
There is no fate and no faith.
reeeeally good point sam!
it may give him more power (the Maian blood)
Only entropy and chance.
and by chance, Merry and Pippin were the
only survivors of the encounter with Eomer's army.
Now they are ready to enter Fangorn Forest.
yes. and by chance they met Fangorn
no, because pippin was being smart and not
by chance..
Not something we would have come to expect
from Pippin
not really no
I think Pippin shows a lot more brains in
this part of the book
bravery can be found in the strangest of
places.
and of course also because of the cloaks
Galadriel gave them! (good equipment is half the
work!)
yes, he certainly is starting to show some
maturity. We have already seen a change in Sam
after his encounter with the Elves and with Frodo
after his encounter with Galadriel and Boromir
What was Fangorn forest like?
true, and this time it's pippin that get's
to show that there is much more to a hobbit than
meets the eye
it is dark and old
very true, Perwing
scary, dark
it is like a larger version of the Old
Forest
yea i always thought those two was kinda
like, only fangorn being a lot bigger
(and with taller trees)
yes.
No way.
I didn't get the sense of "distrust" in
Fangorn that we got from the Old Forest
didn't Fangorn used to be very large and
include the Old Forest?
Fangorn is sleepy, and Old Forest
is hostile.
that is true Nell
correct, Raven
perhaps more Huorns and no Ents in the Old
F?
But they both are the parts of a
giant forest of the previous ages....
Well, it seems so.
again correct.
yeah that's what I meant.
Fangorn certainly knew a lot about Middle
Earth and the peoples in it. But what about Hobbits?
he couldn't remember them
Hios lifespan is measured in
millenias.
they were not mentioned in the song
And Hobbits are quite new...
good point, Raven
it seems that no one knows about hobbits.
perhaps this is because they keep to themselves
yes you're right Raven
they moved in when the woods were
already separated.
And noone of them wentured in
Fangorn.
So no wonder Woodbeard never saw
them - he never leaves Fangorn.
In fact, few free peoples of Middle Earth
did venture into Fangorn
But no hobbits, until Marry and
Pippin.
What did Treebeard think of Gandalf?
he respects him because Gandalf respects
the forest
He said that Gandalf is always in
a hurry.
he knows Gandalf is not not dead
does he know that Gandalf is a maiar?
and what about Saruman?
I don't think he knows what a Maiar is
"a mind of metal and wheels"
he distrusts him but knows that he was
good before
both saruman and gandalf is well known by
treebeard, and i always thought he knew what they
was too..
(i might be wrong though, it's just a
thought...)
I think Treebeard was sad about Saruman. he
sees how wise he is, how good he used to be
treebeard can't quite belive what saruman
has done, especially the parts about choppin down
the forests..
Saruman is a Wizard, answered Treebeard,
More than that I cannot say. I do not know the
history of Wizards. They appeared first after the
Great Ships came over the Sea; but if they came with
the Ships, I never can tell
oh I see
it seems that until he sees Isengard
Treebeard cannot believe what Saruman has done. It
does not register with him
I agree Sam. I think Treebeard was saddened
by Saruman's desire to seek power.
yea i saw that part myself now nell. tnx
though
Treebeard is very aware of what has been
taking place at Isengard
yea, the big shock thing was just pj's
imagination again..
I think the conversation with Pippin and
Merry gave him the incentive he needed to do
something about it.
The more he spoke about what was happening,
the more riled he got.
yes
almost a bit "hasty"..
Although one of my favorite quotes is one
of Treebeards:
We must not be hasty. I have become too
hot. I must cool myself and think; for it is easier
to shout stop! than to do it.
true, a really good one!
But all in all, it didn't really take too
long for the Entmoot to make their decision.,
not in their timesense no!
not at all, for them
perhaps all the talking got them riled up
too
I think Treebeard managed to hurry things
up a bit as he really felt a certain amount of
responsibility for what was happening to their kin.
Sam, I agree. I don't think it took too
much to get them ready to march. The marching song
was enough to make me want to take up arms.
it does seem that Treebeard is a leader
among them
he's the oldest so he probably is some kind
of leader yes
There were somewhat like the Wizards, in
that there were only 3 of the original Ents left,
and Fangorn, like Gandalf, was the only one not
affected in some way.
Leaflock has grown sleepy and treeish.
Skinbark was wounded by the Orcs and has
left Fangorn
there were only 3 left?? hmm i didn't know
that
does it say in lotr?
3 or the originals
of*
hmm oki
Yup.
Three.
Through Skinbark not left.
are the other ones ones that were from the
days the Entwives were still there?
He refused to go anywhere, as a
matter of fact.
Only three remain of the first Ents that
walked in the woods before teh Darkness: only
myself, Fangorn, and Finglas and Fladrif.
yup, just found it myself too
they all start with 'f', sort of
interesting.
Skinbark lifed on the mountain-slopes west
of Isengard.
Elvish
yea and he wouldn't come down again to help
them either.
yes, Sam, the others would have been born
of the Entwives.
I see
He was injured and probably lost hope. He
was more directly affected by Saruman
F probabily means their ling to
forests.
yes.
that's a good point Raven
and so we leave this chapter with the Ents
moving on Isengard.
though Saruman forgot about Ents.maybe why
Gandalf and Treebeard were alone unafected was
because they always remembered there was more to ME
than their own races or themselves
F probabily means their
ling to forests. <--- why? forest in elvish
doesn't start with F...
Treebeard too
I am more inclined to think that has more
to do with their strength of character and
intrinsic good, Sam
But probably it has nothing to do with F
anyway
The fact that Leaflock becomes Treeish,
reminds me of Radagast
Then why they are all beginning
from F?
Perhaps it has something to do with them
being the first.
maybe you are partly right Raven: Forest
begining with 'f' may have sparked Tolkien's
imagination
dunno, but i can't see that there is a
relation to a word that in the language those names
are from the word for tree starts with T..
I agree, Perwing
that's a possibility sam
I agree with Perwing too
Skinback has abandoned his purpose for
being by leaving to live alone on the mountain
slope, just as Saurman abandons his purpose to seek
power with Sauron.
I have to go now. Thanks for class Nell, it
is a good one. can't wait to read transcripts
next week we are discussing the next 2
chapters, class dismissed.
End of #bilbos-study buffer Sun May 25 18:47:30 2003
Ok, apparently Nell forgot to post, Sunday's Class. It was a lot of fun, and I really enjoyed it. So here it is.

[14:38] Mellie has joined #Bilbos-Study
[14:38] hello
[14:38] are you ready for class today?
[14:38] hi, getting there.
[15:03] Grondmaster has joined #Bilbos-Study
[15:04] I'm here too
[15:12] LadyBlueAutomnSky has joined #Bilbos-Study
[15:12] wb LadyBlueAutomnSky
[15:12] welcome LadyBlueAutomnSky
[15:12] ty
[15:13] Hi LadyBlueAutomnSky
[15:14] Shindo_Shuichi has joined #Bilbos-Study
[15:14] joy
[15:14] welcome Shindo_Shuichi
[15:14] i know nothing about Lord of the Rings
[15:14] i just saw the movies Wink Smilie
[15:15] Peredhil has joined #Bilbos-Study
[15:15] you can still get something out of this, Shindo_Shuichi. There is a lot in the movie that was exactly from the book
[15:15] welcome Peredhil
[15:15] ty Nell
[15:16] ok, I will briefly go over the rules of ettiquette
[15:16] welcome everyone
[15:16] during the discussion please do not use smilies
[15:16] or actions
[15:16] Rednell demonstrates an action
[15:17] argl...not using smilie's will be hard for me
[15:17] also refrain from private postBodys as it takes people's attention away from the conversation.
[15:17] don't worry, we will have you trained in no time.
[15:17] ok
[15:17] ok we are ready to start.
[15:18] We are discussing The White Rider Chaper V from The Two Towers
[15:18] We start with Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli discussing the strange old man they saw.
[15:19] At this point we do not know who it is but we can make a guess.
[15:19] what would your guess be?
[15:19] If it sounds like this
[15:19] Saruman
[15:19] i's make it gandalf
[15:19] *i'd
[15:20] Gandalf is still dead as far as they know
[15:20] True
[15:20] but he ressurected
[15:20] so, maybe his ressurection was watching over them
[15:20] This was causing confusion. We know from Treebeard's conversation last week, that Saruman did, in fact, visit Fangorn.
[15:20] and that he disguised himself.
[15:20] they still don't know that nor do we by the book
[15:20] and Saruman would've killed them
[15:21] This makes it seem very logical that it was Saruman. However, Aragorn had his doubts.
[15:21] I think it was a vision of Saruman, not his actual presence
[15:21] What made Aragorn question the possibility that it might be Saruman?
[15:22] because they were not killed?
[15:22] The horses didn't sound afraid
[15:22] Gimli certainly thought it was a phantom og Saruman
[15:22] ooops that is right, i forgot about that
[15:22] right, Grondy.
[15:23] First of all
[15:23] why would Saruman just look at them?
[15:23] They did not sound like beasts in terror. Legolas said that they spoke as horses will when they meet a friend that they have long missed.
[15:23] Saruman works for Sauron, and Sauron ants them dead
[15:23] because as we find out later Shadowfax found them
[15:24] ah, but Saruman work for Sauron?
[15:24] hold that thought, Grondy
[15:24] Saruman is in direct contact with Sauron
[15:24] Legolas said that they spoke as horses will when they meet a friend that they have long missed. <------------------------ first time i read that i thought of Tom Bombadil
[15:24] Saruman even creates an army for Sautron
[15:24] Saurman works for Saruman
[15:24] That is interesting, Mellie
[15:25] i really liked Tom and wanted him to show up again. i later realized the error of my ways
[15:25] I don't think so, Shindo_Shuichi. Gandalf even says that Saruman does not work for Sauron
[15:25] i kept going back and forth between Gandalf and Tom
[15:26] well, he was pretending to work for Sauron
[15:26] Saruman is their enemy
[15:26] We will hear more of Saruman's intentions later in this lesson.
[15:27] but actually trying to get the ring for himself,
[15:27] And why would an enemy just look at them withoput even lifting a finger?
[15:27] good question Shindo_Shuichi
[15:27] Aragorn has really demonstrated his Ranger skills in this chapter. What evidence does he find that makes him determine that both Pippin and Merry are alive.
[15:27] that is why i thought of tom, because i still believed that Gandalf was dead and not coming back
[15:27] That is a very good point, Shindo_Shuichi.
[15:28] He founds that thingy the elves gave them
[15:28] yes, the brooch. What else?
[15:28] I think Saruman is out of the question
[15:28] very good Shindo_Shuichi and he also found tracks
[15:28] and theres only one other mysterious man in the books
[15:28] and that would be Gandalf Wink Smilie
[15:28] how many tracks, Mellie?
[15:28] SORRY!!!!
[15:28] He found their two day old foot prinds in the river bank
[15:29] that showed they had gotten farther away. plus he found that rope that was cut
[15:29] and was trying to figure out who cut it.
[15:29] and how
[15:29] He found something else the Elves gave them, I was just verifying that was the item you were refering to.
[15:30] he saw two diferent size hobbit footprints
[15:31] he found the malorn leaf that the lembas was wrapped in
[15:31] and a lembas wrapper?
[15:31] Exactly, Grondy. It was the size of the footprints that determined it was indeed Merry and Pippin. Because Pippin was a younger hobbit and had smaller feet than the others
[15:31] and crumbs
[15:31] correct, Mellie and Grondy.
[15:32] What was Legolas' reaction to these clues?
[15:33] he was confused
[15:33] wait a second
[15:33] the strangest riddle that we have found
[15:33] disbeleif that the hobbits had wings
[15:33] He didn't really buy it. He made a sarcastic remark about Aragorn's theory.
[15:33] Aragorn isn't a ranger is he?
[15:33] yes, Shindo_Shuichi?
[15:33] yes he is
[15:33] Legolas is a ranger
[15:34] that is correct.
[15:34] So they have 2 Rangers?
[15:34] legolas is an elf
[15:34] An Elven Ranger
[15:34] I didnt think Legolas was a ranger
[15:34] He uses bows and can walk over snow
[15:34] with excellent eyes and hearing and intuition
[15:34] no, only the Dunedain(Men) were Rangers
[15:34] so he must be a ranger
[15:34] what else?
[15:34] A Thief?
[15:35] Those were traits of the Elves.
[15:35] Legolas is a prince and a woodsman
[15:35] so...what rank has he then?
[15:35] just a very bright and realivly young elven prince of the wood elves
[15:35] A Druid?
[15:35] or woods-elf to be more accirate
[15:35] Legolas was the son of the King of the Mirkwood. This was his first adventure outside of Mirkwood.
[15:35] accurate*
[15:37] The Elves were not really magic, Shindo_Shuichi. There was just the perception that they were.
[15:37] ok
[15:37] Legolas wondered how two hobbits could evade the orcs and the Rohirrim during a fight between them
[15:37] little question again then
[15:37] ask
[15:37] in AD&D games
[15:37] questions are good
[15:37] Elves are the best with Magic
[15:37] and then again
[15:38] if you go on a adventure
[15:38] you need some sorta class
[15:38] Like Gimly is a Warrior
[15:38] And like Aragorn is a Ranger
[15:38] and Gandalf is a Mage
[15:38] true they are, but tolkien uses Elven magic a little differently
[15:38] but what is Legolas then?
[15:38] but this is Tolkiens book and the rules of AD&D don't apply to it
[15:38] No, Tolkien did not use these same terms that are used in roleplaying games.
[15:38] But the AD&D games are BASED on Tolkien's story's
[15:38] Gimli is a dwarf
[15:39] true, i wish Val were here, he could really answer your question much better
[15:39] Not quite. I strays quite a bit from Tolkien. As do many fantasy books which make a similar claim
[15:39] A Dwarven warrior
[15:39] ok
[15:39] Guess i was wrong all the time then
[15:39] he plays AD&D plus the Middle Earth RPG and would help with the definitions a bit better
[15:40] So not all characters have a class
[15:40] No, the books are just very different from the role playing games.
[15:40] Not like in the AD&D games
[15:40] The books do not require a point system
[15:40] anyway, back to The White Rider.
[15:41] sorry for the niteruption
[15:41] anyways
[15:41] Aragorn determines that Merry and Pippin have gone into the Fangorn and means to follow. How does Gimli feel about this?
[15:41] i think i don't think i have skills enough for this
[15:41] i'm going out for a smoke
[15:41] cya ppl
[15:41] Shindo_Shuichi has left #Bilbos-Study
[15:41] Shindo, after class i will pm Val, and try to get back to you with your answers, but i don't believe he iwll be around until tuesday
[15:41] oops missed him
[15:42] Gimli wasn't happy to visit the woods
[15:42] no he was kinda freaked out about that
[15:42] why not?
[15:42] he was quite uncomfortable
[15:43] did he have any reason for this fear?
[15:44] They were warned to stay out of Fangorn Forest by whom?
[15:44] yes, Legolas felt it too, but it wasn't evil that they felt, but more like rightous anger
[15:44] and he did not like the looks of it
[15:45] Elrond was the one that warned them wasn't he
[15:45] warned by Galadriel
[15:45] yes, Legolas sensed the anger and that something very big was about to transpire.
[15:45] I think it was Elrong
[15:45] Elrond*
[15:46] okay
[15:46] However, remember what Treebeard had said about Lothlorien and the other forests cared for by the Elves.
[15:46] No, I don't. Sorry
[15:46] i am trying to find who warned them
[15:47] I get the impression from Treebeard, that the trees were becoming treeish and losing thier 'spirit'
[15:47] There was no growth. Much like the Elves themselves. Living in the past.
[15:48] Ah yes, but it was the Ents becoming more treelike
[15:48] yes, Grondy, it was the Ents.
[15:49] I should have said the ents were becoming treeish
[15:49] They enter the forest and they see the old man "again"
[15:50] who does this old man turn out to be?
[15:50] and he actually uses magic to disarm them
[15:50] Mithrandir!
[15:50] yes, he does
[15:50] the one and only. what is different about him?
[15:51] A tad bit more jolly
[15:51] he is in a white cloack instead of grey
[15:51] and farseeing
[15:51] Yes, I am white now. Indeed I am Saruman, one might almost say as he should have been.
[15:52] his tattered cloak was still grey, but his garnmets were white
[15:52] He mentions the Ring. I am going to give you a passage and I want you to place the event Gandalf is referring to.
[15:53] i could not find who warned them about fangorn forest . I would have missed class
[15:53] ok
[15:53] it doesn't really matter Mellie
[15:53] Very nearly it was revealed to teh Enemy, but it escaped. I had some part in taht for I sat in a high place and I strove with the Dark Tower and the shadow passed.
[15:54] i know that is why i stopped looking
[15:54] lol
[15:54] when was the Ring very nearly revealed to the enemy?
[15:55] You have to think back to the 1st book.
[15:56] When Frodo wore the ring on the hill of seeing, Anon Hin?
[15:56] yes, that was my interpretation
[15:56] when frodo looken in to galadriel's mirror?
[15:57] This quote is another indication that the hand of Eru was at work at Amon Hen
[15:57] Frodo heard some one saying 'take it off you fool' if I remember correctlu
[15:58] All events of course were not controlled by Eru, because of free will that is given to the inhabitants of ME. He just interferred enough to tip the scales in the balance for "good"
[15:58] yes, Grondmaster.
[15:59] We also see one of the purposes Merry and Pippin's presence on the journey.
[16:00] to rally the Ents to help ME
[16:00] It was not in vain that the young hobbits came with us, if only for Boromir's sake.
[16:00] The uniteing of the Ents against Saruman
[16:00] definitely that was a very key purpose for them.
[16:01] yes and they did it very well too
[16:01] And to help redeem Boromir
[16:01] exactly Grondmaster.
[16:01] yes Denthor appreciated that
[16:01] as did Aragorn
[16:01] Boromir's selfless act erradicated his selfish act
[16:02] 'No Boromir, you have won!'
[16:03] yes, wonderful quote.
[16:03] an excellent quote
[16:03] Gandalf did not know that Sam was with Frodo, but he sure was very pleased that he was.
[16:04] I just noticed that Galadriel had sent Gwiahir looking for Gandalf
[16:04] yes, Grondmaster.
[16:04] I had just noticed it when I re-read the chapter.
[16:04] Shindo_Shuichi has joined #Bilbos-Study
[16:04] After all these readings and I just noticed it now
[16:04] i just noticed that too
[16:04] sorry for leaving
[16:04] lol
[16:04] that makes 3 of us. lol
[16:04] whats the topic?
[16:05] wb Shindo_Shuichi
[16:05] thnx
[16:05] yes, wb
[16:05] Gandalf has now been resurrected
[16:05] we all just learned something new in class
[16:05] that caladriel had sent Swiahir looking for gandalf
[16:05] but has yet to tell us how or his battle with the Balrof
[16:05] Gwiahir
[16:05] we are at the part where Gandalf says:"For the enemy has failed so far. Thanks to Saruman."
[16:06] :S
[16:06] Why do you think he says this?
[16:06] So Saruman is a good guy?
[16:06] more like a double agent, Shindo_Shuichi
[16:06] No, evil marsd evil
[16:07] mars*
[16:07] no but he made a major mistake
[16:07] Gandalf calls him "Doubly the traitor"
[16:07] Maybe he sended in the Balrof
[16:07] and inadvertdly helped the fellowship
[16:07] because he knows that Gandalf will defeat the Balrof
[16:08] I wouldnt think Saruman sent the Balrog
[16:08] Ow
[16:08] it's Balrog
[16:08] sorry
[16:08] The Balrog was an independent agent
[16:08] No, the Balrog is a free agent
[16:08] he does not know that, but that when gandalf defeats the barlog it gives him more power
[16:08] he's just living there and waiting to kill ppl
[16:08] yep, that is about it, Shindo_Shuichi
[16:09] yep, he lives underground in Moria and they disturbed him.
[16:09] I don't know if he made the mistake too in the movie's
[16:09] so don't drop stones or skeleton's down any wells
[16:09] lol
[16:09] there is also a personal vendetta between the barlog in gandalf, i think. but i am not sure why i think that
[16:09] Gandalf says that the Dark Lord has to fear both Isengard and Minas Tirith
[16:10] Saruman said that they were not allowed to pass Mnt. Doom
[16:10] he didn't let them pass Mnt. Doom
[16:10] Maybe that was him mistake
[16:10] Because they came true Moria alive
[16:10] *through
[16:11] my english sucks
[16:11] i'm sorry for that
[16:11] we understand
[16:11] So it might be the Mnt. Doom thingy
[16:11] yes if they had passed mt doom then gandalf would not have fought the barlog and become gandalf the white
[16:11] I don't think Sauron knew about the fellowship in Moria. Sauraman was the one in the know at that point.
[16:11] good point
[16:12] Sauron didn't know until they were on the river
[16:12] this is true, i forgot that
[16:12] Saruman was messing things up for everyone. He was drawing away Rohan from helping Gondor.
[16:13] But Gandalf didn't know that he was going to do that when he was resurrected
[16:14] and Saruman's Orcs cost Sauron the capture of the Hobbits.
[16:14] For the time being we can forget about Sauron and concentrate about Saruman
[16:14] yes, I don't think Saruman really knows what he has got himself into, however.
[16:15] very true Nell his orc did cost Sauron the capture of the hobbit
[16:15] s
[16:16] Not only that, but if it had not been for Saruman's Orcs, Merry and Pippin would not have been in Fangorn Forest to rouse the ents against Isengard
[16:16] No
[16:16] that ain't the Orc's fault
[16:17] The Orc's just got attacked by uninvited company
[16:17] So, Saruman's treachery ruined the plans for the Dark Lord and for himself
[16:17] No it is Saruman's fault
[16:17] They were fighting amongst themselves.
[16:19] and not paying attention to where they were going. I don't think Orcs normally would go into Rohan territory.
[16:19] By Sauron's Orc removing the hobbits from the main camp they were saved from the following slaughter
[16:19] of Saruman's Orcs
[16:19] It was because the uruk-hai were trying to get to Isengard by the shortest route possible.
[16:20] Peredhil has quit IRC (Quit: Peredhil)
[16:21] Yes, that's why they went by that route.
[16:21] I find it interesting that Gandalf says "A war is upon us and all our friends. A war in which only the use of the Ring could give us surety of victory."
[16:21] But i don't think Saruman made that choise for them
[16:21] the uruk-hai probably made that choise theirself
[16:22] that is correct Shindo_Shuichi
[16:22] Saruman would know which route they would chose, the shortest and he knew where that would take them. He would not have known about the Rohan's vow to kill all Orcs.
[16:23] The Uruk-hai were new to the neighbourhood.
[16:23] And his agent in Edoras would have tried to keep the Rohirrim out of that area
[16:24] It's weird that Saruman fucks it up for hisself
[16:24] yes, but he was just a little late.
[16:24] language, please, Shindo_Shuichi
[16:24] I mean, he wants to win too
[16:24] where is Barliman
[16:24] ow sorry
[16:25] but still
[16:25] you know what i mean
[16:25] What does Gandalf mean by saying that only the use of the Ring could give us the surety of victory
[16:26] Maybe he is talking about the destruction of the ring
[16:26] I think you are correct.
[16:26] That every other means hung on hope alone
[16:26] or maybe he's saying that they shoud keep the ring to make all the enemy's get confused
[16:26] but hope that they still had
[16:26] The ring drives Saruman crazy
[16:27] And because of the Ring he messed things up
[16:27] So he might mean that too
[16:27] destroying the Ring is the only means to destroy the Dark Lord, therefore they must use the Ring to gain victory
[16:27] ok
[16:27] topic closed
[16:28] One more thing and then we will close for tonight.
[16:28] Saruman's desire of the ring certainly did cause him to mess things up
[16:28] Most definitely, Grondmaster.
[16:29] Gimli wants to know if Gandalf was the old man that they saw in the forest. Was he?
[16:29] Gandalf says not
[16:29] Probably so
[16:29] Who does he say it was.
[16:30] Probably Saruman's vision looking for his orcs?
[16:30] I don't think he said.
[16:30] Gandalf claims it was Saruman and Treebeard has already told us that Saruman visits frequently.
[16:31] I think he said that he used to visit the forest
[16:31] But that Saruman has dark thoughts, and wont come to enjoy the forest anymore
[16:32] I forgot also Galadriel's postBodys to the three hunters
[16:32] Well i need to go. sorry for cutting class short this week. hope you return next week Shindo_Shuichi
[16:32] we will continue this next week.
[16:32] that was new to me.
[16:32] thnx
[16:32] bye Mellie
[16:32] bye all
[16:32] because I want to go over the postBodys from Galadriel
[16:32] cya
[16:33] bye Mellie
[16:33] This chapter has so much in it.
[16:33] Good. Yes it certainly does
[16:33] Next week we will pick up where we left off in The White Rider and go on to The King of the Golden Hall.
[16:34] Shall we retire to the other room?
[16:34] THanks for the class Nell.
[16:35] yw
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Great Class, and I am looking forward to next weeks lesson as well.

Mellie
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I removed the addresses and extraneous gossip that occurred prior to class. The naughty word had already been bleeped. Thanks Mellie and Nell.

Grondy

[Edited on 5/6/2003 by Grondmaster]
This Fall, we hope to continue from where we left off last Spring; however, at the current time Rednell is temporarily having to work overtime and can't prepare her excellent lesson plans for the classes.

Stay tuned for the date and time when we will finish 'The White Rider' and go on to 'The King of the Golden Hall'.
FLASH: Read Rednell's post of yesterday's date under Welcome to PT's Online Course for newest developments. Like class is now scheduled for next Sunday.

Read TTT, Book III, Chapters 5 and 6.
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