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Here is the log from October 12th. We only managed to discuss Helm's Deep, so next week we will cover The Road to Isengard.


Start of #bilbos-study buffer: Sun Oct 12 18:37:10 2003
[16:49] * Now talking in #bilbos-study
[16:49] * ChanServ (services@darkmyst.org) has joined #bilbos-study
[16:49] * ChanServ sets mode: +o ChanServ
[16:49] * ChanServ changes topic to 'Welcome to the Planet-Tolkien
Classroom. If we do not have a class discussion going on at the moment
join us in #tolkien (Rednell)'
[16:49] * ChanServ sets mode: +ntr
[17:34] Well, should we go ahead with the discussion or look
for a more suitable time?
[17:35] can we do it now?
[17:35] sure we can
[17:35] gd
[17:35] i cam on specially
[17:35] I'm game for now
[17:35] then, now it is.
[17:35] yey
[17:36] We will begin with Helm's Deep
[17:36] We had noticed often that the weather seemed to
reflect the mood of the scene.
[17:37] I think we will notice the same can be found here.
[17:37] In what direction is the company travelling?
[17:37] north west?
[17:38] yes
[17:38] How do we know they are travelling towards the west?
[17:39] the sun was coming up
[17:39] the light of the evening sun was in their eyes
[17:39] right, Grondmaster
[17:39] and it wouldn't be in their eyes unless they were
facing it
[17:41] Even though the sun was setting and the weather was
clear, why does it not have a pleasant feel to it?
[17:42] the misty mountains are shown to be ever darker and
taller
[17:42] that doesn't sound to nice
[17:42] the air was heavy
[17:42] and it was hotter than normal
[17:42] good Rawien and Grondmaster
[17:43] Darkness, "a very storm from Mordor", was closing in
behind them
[17:43] Why did Theoden decide to take his army to Helm's Deep?
[17:43] and in the morning a great storm was brewing in
the east
[17:44] he thought that no army could break the keep
[17:45] because a rider came and told them if the loss of
the Fords to a great enemy army
[17:45] correct Grondmaster.
[17:45] Did they leave Edoras with the intention of going to
Helm's Deep
[17:46] no
[17:46] they were going to the fords of isen
[17:46] they meant to reiforce the Fords I think
[17:46] where they not?
[17:46] That is correct, Grondy
[17:48] They only decided to go to Helm's Deep because Ceorl
had told them that they had lost the battle at the Fords of Isen and
Erkenbrand had headed towards Helm's Deep
[17:48] Who had built Helm's Deep?
[17:48] Helm?
[17:48] The Numenoreans?
[17:49] i dunno
[17:50] The last of the Sea-Kings of Gondor
[17:50] Then Rohan took it over and cared for it.
[17:52] There have been a couple of references to Wormtongue
in this chapter that leads me to believe that everyone was not
completely convinced of his evil treachery.
[17:52] One is a comment from one of the guards.
[17:53] that was when Gandalf rode away
[17:53] yes, Grondmaster, that was the first comment I had
noticed.
[17:54] Gandalf left with really no explanation as to why he
was leaving them to complete the journey to Helm's Deep without him.
This seemed somewhat disconcerting to the guard.
[17:55] "Wormtongue, were he here, would not find it hard to
explain"
[17:56] Did anyone notice another comment which indicated that
Wormtongue was not looked at with hatred?
[17:56] does that suggest that Grima would say something bad
against Gandalf then?
[17:57] no, I think it means that Grima would explain why he
left, if he had to do so.
[17:57] Theoden said he missed both his councilers
[17:57] yeah
[17:57] Gandalf is not known for sharing his gameplan
[17:57] yes, Grondmaster, that was the other comment that I
had noticed.
[17:58] In the far past Grima had proven his worth as a
loyal subject to Theoden
[17:58] His trechery was more recent
[17:59] I agree and I really don't think that Gandalf had
really convinced Theoden of Grima's absolute treachery. Theoden was
still willing to have Wormtongue ride into battle with him
[18:01] The fact that Grima did not could mean that he was a
coward perhaps, not necessarily a traitor, in the eyes of Rohan
[18:02] yet someone said later they has seen Grima in the
company of Orcs
[18:03] yes, but following that revelation, Theoden said that
he missed both his counsellors
[18:04] It is hard to give up a friend, we want to cut
them some slack
[18:04] but it could have been just nostalgic comment. That
he wished Grima was not so treacherous and could be there to counsel
him
[18:04] yes, that is a good point, Grondy.
[18:05] (LadyFeawen's coming in)
[18:05] What did Theoden and Aragorn see on the journey to
Helm's Deep?
[18:05] [18:05] What did Theoden and Aragorn see on
the journey to Helm's Deep?
[18:05] for noe Theoden must do with Eomer and Aragorn for
Counciling
[18:06] torches
[18:06] what was done with these torches, Rawien?
[18:06] the burning of the homesteads
[18:06] yep
[18:07] yes, something very hard for a King to see.
[18:07] (welcome, Fea)
[18:08] (thanks Rawien)
[18:08] Notice the weather at this point as we approach Helm's
Deep.
[18:09] it was dark
[18:09] why so dark, Grondmaster?
[18:09] clouds
[18:09] yes, no moon and no stars. A storm is brewing.
[18:10] and it kept getting darker
[18:11] (hey)
[18:11] Smile Smilie
[18:11] I found at this point the friendship between Legolas
and Gimli is becoming closer and Legolas is comfortable telling Gimli
how he feels. What does he say?
[18:12] and the air was very heavy from the approaching
storm
[18:12] that he is glad to have him standing nigh
[18:12] yes
[18:13] Ok, how about pointing our a few highlights of the
Battle of Helm's Deep
[18:13] out*
[18:13] Legolas doesn't like Helms Deep
[18:14] neither does Gimli likes Fangorn forest
[18:14] They enemy broke through the Dike like water
[18:15] how did the enemy break through?
[18:15] by climbing over thier dead
[18:15] that was one way, yes
[18:16] ladders?
[18:16] yes, Rawien
[18:16] that was how they climbed the Wall
[18:17] Aragorn reported to Theoden a "devilry from Orthanc",
what was it?
[18:17] gunpowder or nitro
[18:17] Gun powder, bombs
[18:17] a 'blasting fire'
[18:18] in other words, gunpowder, yes
[18:18] "It is said that the Hornburg ahs never fallen to
assult," said Theoden, "but now my heart is doubtful.
[18:18] they opened up the channel and came through the
water course
[18:19] and they brought a battering ram up the causeway
[18:19] "...maybe I should not so rashly have ridden forth to
meet it for all the arts of Gandalf. His cousel seems not now so good
as it did under the morning sun"
[18:19] Yes, it is looking pretty grim.
[18:20] His was a normal sentiment
[18:20] How does Aragorn react?
[18:21] he says not to judge the counsel of gandalf
[18:21] He told him to be hopeful for the dawn
[18:23] Yes, "So great a power and royalty was revealed in
Aragorn, as he stood there alone above the ruined gares before the
host of his enemies, that many of the wild men paused and look back
over their shoulders to the valley and some looked up doubtfully at
the sky."
[18:24] and then Aragorn prophesied the doom of thr orcs
to their face
[18:25] Yes, and what was it that caused the Orcs to tremble?
[18:26] the Horn of Helm
[18:27] yes, the sound caused them to tremble and cover their
ears.
[18:27] and a rumor that something was behind them
[18:27] What happened next?
[18:28] then the rohirrim rode through them
[18:28] CHARGE!
[18:28] and the weather?
[18:28] the sun broke through
[18:29] yes, "the sun flared above the eastern hills and
glimmered on their spears"
[18:29] And with the sun came?
[18:29] Gandalf!
[18:29] Trees in thd vale
[18:30] and Erkenbrand
[18:30] Erkenbrand and his riders
[18:31] the Battle of Helm's Deep was victorious! And what
happened to those poor Orcs?
[18:31] doom for the Orcs
[18:31] they got buried by the trees
[18:31] Yep, they ran in the wrong direction.
[18:31] by the trees?
[18:32] That is then end of the chapter of Helm's Deep. Does
anyone have any comment to make about this chapter?
[18:32] What were those trees, Grondy?
[18:32] er.. earlier on, Aragorn and Legolas go with Eomer in
the van
[18:32] whats a van?
[18:32] Hourn
[18:33] van means front
[18:33] front part of the army
[18:33] or is it Huorn
[18:33] oh, ok
[18:33] ty
[18:34] I guess we would call it the advancing forces
[18:34] ahh
[18:34] Huorn is correct
[18:35] I think they are mobile trees
[18:35] yes, they are the trees shephered by the tree shepherds
[18:36] yes, we will, Grondmaster.
[18:36] ok
[18:36] i best get reading then
[18:36] It seems to take an hour to discuss a chapter so we
may have to cut to 1 chapter a week.
[18:36] Thanks for the class Nell
[18:36] yeah, ty Nell
[18:36] Thanks for coming everyone.

End of #bilbos-study buffer Sun Oct 12 18:37:11 2003
Here is the log from Discussion of Oct. 19th - Road to Isengard:

Start of #bilbos-study buffer: Sun Oct 19 18:55:10 2003
[09:36] * Now talking in #bilbos-study
[10:26] * ChanServ (services@darkmyst.org) has joined #bilbos-study

[17:58] Road to Isengard
[17:59] What is the mood like as we start this chapter?
[17:59] much lighter
[17:59] why is that?
[18:00] everyone's been reunited
[18:00] kinda
[18:01] yes, I will agree with that Rawien
[18:01] The are 2 significant reunions here that are really
joyful.
[18:02] Gandolf, Gimli and Legolas. Eomer and Theoden
[18:02] question: who were the 'lords of the Golden
House'?
[18:02] Just in that context I would think Eomer and Theoden.
What it the statement, Grondy, I think I missed it.
[18:03] first paragraph
[18:04] Had Tolkien used 'Hall' I would have had no problem
[18:04] I see it there
[18:04] But you are probably right
[18:05] carry on Nell
[18:06] How did Legolas react when Gimli made his appearance?
[18:06] he was glad
[18:06] very happy
[18:07] How did their friendly little competition go?
[18:07] Gimli won
[18:07] by 1
[18:07] Gimil 42, Legolass 41
[18:08] yep, close
[18:08] Where was Gandalf wanting to go now?
[18:08] Isengard
[18:08] Legolass was so happy to see Gimli that he didn't
begrudge losing the match
[18:09] ty
[18:09] Their friendship is really strengthening.
[18:09] Gandalf wanted to talk to Saruman
[18:09] Why did Gandalf want to go to Isengard?
[18:10] right Grondy. You are a mindreader tonight.
[18:10] Was Theoden going along?
[18:11] yes
[18:11] but he didn't want to
[18:11] If he could rest first, he wasn't about to
distrust the advice of Gandalf any more
[18:11] what about his army?
[18:12] but Theoden said he didn't have enough men for a
fight
[18:12] Was this of any concern to Gandalf?
[18:14] Did Gandalf have any need of Theoden's army?
[18:14] No, Gandalf said they were going to parley rather
than to fight
[18:14] yeah
[18:14] right. So what duties did the rest of the men have to
perform?
[18:15] to clean up the mess of battle
[18:15] and to be messengers
[18:16] Let's talk about the mess a bit. What needed to be
done?
[18:16] to call for the muster
[18:16] bodies to bury
[18:17] walls to mend, wounds to doctor
[18:17] tummies to feed
[18:17] Who did they enlist to do these repairs?
[18:18] the hillmen
[18:18] yes
[18:19] How were they treated by Erkenbrand?
[18:19] with respect
[18:19] the hillmen were surprised, because saruman told them
the rohirrim were cruel
[18:19] justly rather than how Saruman had said they would
be treated by the Rohirrim
[18:20] good
[18:20] How were the dead buried?
[18:21] in two different tumuli
[18:21] and when they were released they were told not to
cross the Isen bearing weapons
[18:21] Eastfolders and Westfolders
[18:21] what were the 2, Virumor?
[18:22] well, i mean two big hills or something
[18:22] i don't know the exact word in english
[18:22] mounds
[18:22] you are correct, vir
[18:22] I understood the term
[18:23] East Dales in one and Westfold in the 2nd, as Grondy
said. There was one lone grave, whose was it?
[18:23] Hama, perhaps?
[18:23] yes, indeed.
[18:24] Can you describe the forest?
[18:24] it is dark
[18:24] the orcs they piled up and Gandalf said to then
let them lie awhile
[18:24] whispers
[18:24] misty
[18:24] they feel it's hostile towards them
[18:24] grey and menacing
[18:25] threatening
[18:25] What happens when Gandalf leads them through?
[18:25] two ents step out of the forest
[18:25] and do some kind of 'call'
[18:26] and more ents come marching up and enter the woods
[18:27] What was the reaction of everyone at this sight?
[18:27] awe?
[18:27] they were astonished
[18:28] things of their childhood tales
[18:28] Theoden had thought they were just legends.
[18:28] then theoden says somethin like 'it is one good thing
of this war, that all good things unite'
[18:28] or something like that
[18:29] and Gandalf said 'you do not fight alone.' or the
like
[18:29] Theoden noted that it is bittersweet, why?
[18:29] where are we?
[18:29] i'm lost
[18:29] that the old things are passing away
[18:31] yes he does, what he thought were just legends to be
told to children now are proven to be real, however, he notes:
[18:31] Rawien: about ten pages in
[18:31] ok
[18:31] ty
[18:32] Yet also I should be sad, for however the fortune of
war shall go, may it not so end that much that was fair and wonderful
shall pass for ever out of Middle-earth?
[18:33] As they journey on, what do they notice?
[18:33] black-winged birds
[18:33] u mean when they go to isengard?
[18:33] they see smoke
[18:34] Much description of the land they pass through and
that the Isen is dry
[18:35] Many fair things destroyed by Saruman
[18:36] and suddenly ,they are surrounded by fog
[18:36] the carrion feeding only on orcs and wargs, for
the men had been buried on the island (eyot)
[18:36] and they hear the river again, at night too
[18:36] what signs did they see indicating that they were
nearing Isengard?
[18:37] they szw the hand
[18:37] saw*
[18:37] but it was broken
[18:38] wilderness of weeds and brambles
[18:38] a black pillar with the white hand painted, its finger
pointing in what direction?
[18:38] ttree stumps where orchards used to be
[18:38] towards isengard, normally
[18:39] but it was broken
[18:39] and pointing towards?
[18:39] north
[18:39] through 6the mists
[18:40] What was one of the major changes that Saruman had
made to Isengard?
[18:40] he destroyed the garden
[18:40] yes
[18:40] took all trees and bushes and plants away
[18:40] and what did he replace the trees along the side of
the road with?
[18:41] pillars connected with chains?
[18:41] yes
[18:41] replaced them with paving slabs, stone columns
metal piers, and chains
[18:41] pillars of marble, copper and iron
[18:41] bye Rawien
[18:41] Beyond the mist what sight did they behold?
[18:42] bye Rawien
[18:42] the iron gate to the tunnel thrown down
[18:42] well i think they saw isengard in the smoke
[18:43] yes, that is what they saw and who was sitting on the
pile of rubble waiting for the arrival of the company?
[18:43] pippin and meriadoc
[18:43] smokin pipeweed
[18:43] well, actually they only saw two small figures
chilling out
[18:44] more creatures out of Theoden's childhood tales
[18:44] What would Legolas and Gimli think of this sight?
[18:44] Poor Theoden
[18:44] annoyed
[18:45] gimli said somethin like 'have i walked all those
miles just to see those guys smokin ?'
[18:45] Do you think it was sincere annoyance or feined?
[18:45] feined
[18:45] WhooHoo! there ore the wooley pated and footed
companions
[18:45] they were relieved to see 'em alive
[18:46] Did you get a real elated feeling when you read this
part, afterall, we already knew that they were alive.
[18:46] but feined anger to see them eating drinkin andf
smoking
[18:46] not really, i was lookin forward to the confrontation
between gandalf and saruman more
[18:46] * Perwing|afk is now known as Perwing
[18:47] ahh, but you must have felt a small bit of joy at the
reunion, vir
[18:47] maybe a tiny bit
[18:47] This was one of the scenes in the book that really
brought a grin to my face while I was reading
[18:48] It was more like a Mother wanting to kill her kids
just after they had been rescued, not real but that kind of anger that
they had put her through the anxiety
[18:48] Who told Pippin and Merry to await the arrival of
these special guests?
[18:48] fangorn
[18:48] Treebeard
[18:48] good analogy, Grondmaster
[18:49] Merry seemed to delight Theoden with his little
history lesson about pipeweed. Why did Gandalf interrupt him?
[18:49] becoz they had to see Saruman
[18:50] Gandalf wanted to see if Saruman would still help them
[18:50] yes, and he felt Merry could most likely go on talking
about Hobbit History for a very long time
[18:51] Because they had business a tad bit more important
to do than sit around listening to generations upon generations of the
goings on in the Shire
[18:51] What did Pippin think of Theoden?
[18:51] a friendly old man
[18:51] and very polite.
[18:52] a fine old fellow
[18:52] Any other discussion about this chapter you would like
to make note of?
[18:52] let's move on to The Voice of Saruman....
[18:53] Next week we will move on to Flotsam and Jetsam and
should be able to cover The Voice of Saruman as well.
[18:53] oki
[18:53] Like you, I really like this part of the book, Vir
[18:53] book 3 is almost finished, then
[18:53] So next week same time same place.
[18:54] Thanks Nell.
[18:54] yw
[18:54] thx
[18:54] Shall we retire to #tolkien?
End of #bilbos-study buffer Sun Oct 19 18:55:10 2003
The log from Bilbos-study, Oct 26th.

Start of #bilbos-study buffer: Sun Oct 26 18:45:41 2003 [14:20] * Now talking in #bilbos-study
[14:20] * Topic is 'Welcome to the Planet-Tolkien Classroom. If we do
not have a class discussion going on at the moment join us in #tolkien '
[14:20] * Set by Rednell on Sun Sep 07 21:27:18
[14:20] * ChanServ sets mode: +o Rednell
[17:04] goodday all
[17:11] before we start, we should discuss if there is a
better time for everyone to meet
[17:11] today is the last sunday i can be in here
[17:11] right
[17:12] what are your weekday afternoons like, Grondy?
[17:12] I can't be here Tuesdays and Fridays
[17:12] i can be here on thursday and monday
[17:13] Monday is the language guild
[17:13] Now that quenya has moved to Tuesday, Monday is a good
possibility.
[17:13] oh
[17:13] I think it moved to Tuesday, didn't it?
[17:13] what time monday then?
[17:13] same time as this?
[17:13] I don't know
[17:13] hmm, works for me
[17:14] I do not work on Mondays
[17:14] thursday would be best for me
[17:14] Quenya hasn't been moved, not that I've heard of at
least..
[17:14] The earliest I could get in Thursday is 5:30pm. 1/2
hour later. I work until 5pm
[17:16] does that present a problem, as it is quite late in
your area, vir and Amarie
[17:16] Are they even holding Quenya any more?
[17:17] not much Nell, that would be 10:30 pm for me
[17:17] yes, but last monday it got postponed as I and pere
where the only ones there
[17:17] yes, they are. I forgot to log onto bilbos last week
before I went to work and so didn't save the log.
[17:18] well, let's try Thursday and see how that works.
[17:18] I's 6 hours between me and you Nell?
[17:18] 5
[17:18] 5, I think
[17:18] Grondy is 4 earlier than me
[17:18] it's 10pm here now
[17:19] well, shall we try this Thursday and take it from
there?
[17:19] ok
[17:20] Fine by me
[17:20] ok, let's begin today's discussion now.
[17:20] First, would anyone like to give a definition of
Flotsam and Jetsam?
[17:21] never heard about them...
[17:21] Stuff that float ashore after a storm
[17:21] if that was what you asked..
[17:21] I thinf flotsom is what you find floadting and
jetsome is what you throw in?
[17:22] yes to both Amarie and Grondy
[17:22] hmm, amarie: quick norwegian translation in pm pls
[17:22] in dutch it's different too
[17:23] flotsam is the debris from a shipwreak or as Amarie
said, stuff that floats ashore after a storm. Jetsam is thrown
overboard, usually to lighten the load.
[17:23] jetsom from to jetition
[17:23] After we discuss this chapter I will ask you why
Tolkien chose this as the title for this chapter.
[17:24] We open with the "great ones" going to discuss "high
matters", why was Aragorn not in that company, afterall, he was heir
to the throne?
[17:25] he didn't want too many ppl to know that just yet
[17:25] good point, Per
[17:25] he didn't want to leave his refound mates?
[17:25] He wanted to see how his friends were, after all
he was the leader when they were hobbit napped
[17:25] and that too, Vir
[17:26] he felt responsible for them
[17:26] There was, of course, much delight at this reunion.
[17:26] and besides he knew he would get the story from
Gandalf later anyways
[17:26] Merry certainly didn't seem to have lost his sense of
humour after all they had been through.
[17:26] they're hobbits
[17:26] so
[17:27] exactly, Virumor
[17:27] that's what hobbits are like!!
[17:27] What does Gimli notice about the Hobbits?
[17:27] taller
[17:27] they seem taller
[17:27] grew
[17:27] They are taller and have more hair/curls
[17:27] exactly
[17:27] legolamb mentions the drink of the ents
[17:27] legolas*
[17:28] Aragron asked Pippin to tell about the Ents but Pippin
seemed to have difficulty with this request. Why do you think it was
hard for Pippin to describe the Ents?
[17:29] because he ain't as wise as frodo
[17:29] doesn't find the right words
[17:29] describing Ents is like a blind man describing an
oliphaunt
[17:30] Ents come in all shapes, just like trees
[17:30] yes, It is pretty hard to describe something that is
really beyond anything you could imagine.
[17:31] and the whole experience has been somewhat
overwhelming.
[17:31] well, soon aragorn is gonna see one
[17:31] not much to compare them to other than trees
[17:31] What did the hobbits offer the company after their
meal?
[17:31] pipeweed
[17:31] pipeweed?
[17:31] pipeweed
[17:31] not just any pipeweed
[17:32] longbottom
[17:32] Longbottom Leaf, from Saruman's private stash, indicating
he had assets in the Shire
[17:32] yes, with the Hornblower brand on the barrel.
[17:32] yes, Arco.
[17:32] hints of things to come, and that spies had been
about
[17:33] "They smoked in silence for a while and the sun shone
on them..." <---- How does that scene make you feel?
[17:33] like the southener in Bree who looked like
Saruman';s men
[17:33] comfy
[17:34] bill ferny
[17:34] no the guy Bill was talking to
[17:34] very comfy. Calm after the battle and before the next
one.
[17:35] yes, Aragorn remembers that when the hobbits recall
the events leading up to the battle
[17:36] then he says som like that elrond wasn't rong in
wanting to send peregrin and meriadoc back
[17:36] Pippin starts out telling the events that unfolded
after the company parted, but it was Merry who provided the most
detail.
[17:37] What do we learn about Huorns from Merry?
[17:37] they're dangerous... very quick
[17:38] yes
[17:38] a great power in them and are able to wrap themselves
in shadow.
[17:38] they are Ents that have almost become like trees
[17:39] yes, Grondy, they have become queet and wild but can
still talk with the ents.
[17:39] How was it that the Ents and Huorns were able to
surround Isengard without Saruman's awareness?
[17:40] it was dark and cloudy? (or is there some other part...?)
[17:40] very dark and cludy
[17:41] yes, grondy
[17:41] how did they move in?
[17:41] moon was hiding and they no longer sang
[17:41] and the sound?
[17:41] they destroyed hte gates
[17:42] they are very strong etc
[17:42] rustling and creaking
[17:42] they it was 'creaking'
[17:42] rushing of the wind
[17:42] yes, exactly, just as if there was a strong wind, no
reason for Saruman to be suspicious
[17:43] But they were very patient and stood very still as
they witnessed something happening at Isengard.
[17:43] and he wasn't expecting an attack from the
mountains and was short handed
[17:43] ...and anyway, Searuman was too pre-occupied with
emptying his army to finish off the Rohirrim, rather than being
cautious and looking for Ents and Huorns
[17:43] exactly, Aroc
[17:43] arco*
[17:44] he hadn't taken them into his planning
[17:44] It seemed that Treebeard and the Huorns had different
agendas, however.
[17:44] What were they?
[17:44] ents - trees gone berserk
[17:45] the Huorns wanted to deal with Orcs; the Ents began to
demolish Angrenost
[17:45] exactly
[17:45] Huorns were after orcs, Ents were after Saruman
[17:45] the Huorns followed the Orcs as they moved south.
[17:46] That would explain what happend to the bodies of the
Orcs that were left at the edge of the forest in The Road to Isengard
[17:46] Kill the tree killers!
[17:46] How did Merry describe an angry Ent?
[17:46] or the bodies near helm's deep
[17:47] fast
[17:47] terrifying
[17:47] possitively hasty
[17:47] ahhh, yes, all except one, who was not hasty at all.
Who?
[17:49] Grondy, who let out the cry, kill the tree-killers?
[17:49] Quickbeam
[17:49] greenpeace?
[17:49] lol
[17:49] may i ask were we're up to?
[17:49] yes, grondy. and how did the Ents react to that?
[17:50] We are in chapter 9, where Merry is describing the
destruction of Isengard
[17:50] about nine or ten pages in
[17:51] ty
[17:51] they almost caught Saruman who had been watching
his troops leave
[17:52] almost but not quite.
[17:52] Quickbeam almst did
[17:52] "within a step or two"
[17:53] Beechbone got burned
[17:53] they seem to have lost their heads and starting
breaking stones and destroying however, they could not harm Orthnac
[17:53] But Treebeard kept his head because he had a plan
[17:54] they only broke a few flakes off the tower
[17:54] Treebeard let out a cry and what happened?
[17:54] They set a watch on Orthanc
[17:54] the waters poured forth to flood the rats out of
their holes
[17:55] there was dead silence when Treebeard let out his cry,
silent except for a shrill laugh from the tower.
[17:55] but first they dammed the Isen to get enough water
for the flood
[17:56] That was Treebeards plan which he explained to the
ents after they stopped the seige on Orthnac
[17:57] Merry felt that Saruman has been defeated at this
point. What does he think of Saruman now.
[17:59] " wizardry may have been falling off"
[18:00] he thinks he's different than Gandalf; 'not much grit'
[18:00] "not much grit"
[18:00] "not much plain courage" like Gandalf
[18:01] but Aragorn cautions Merry.
[18:01] maybe his cleverness was just settling in Isengard
[18:01] Aragorn: "No, once he was as great as his fame made him."
[18:01] yes, that is what Merry thought
[18:03] Aragorn thought even after his defeat , that only
Gandalf, Galadriel, or Elrond could be safe from his voice
[18:03] I think Aragorn wanted to let the hobbit to know
thatit is still wise to exercise caution when dealing with Saruman.
[18:04] Was the reunion with Gandalf one that Pippin expected?
[18:04] no
[18:04] why not?
[18:05] Gandalf was in a hurry to save Helm's Deep
[18:05] Pippin wanted to talk
[18:07] Pippin didn't think much of Gandalf's quick shrug off.
[18:07] "fool of a Took:
[18:08] And who else arrives at Orthnac?
[18:08] neither Treebeard nor Gandalf were surprised to
see the other at Isengard, Gandalf must have talked to Treebeard
before
[18:09] yes, I think he did in Fangorn. Gandalf knew the
hobbits were safe with Treebeard
[18:09] Grima Wormtongue
[18:09] How did a very shocked Grim try to explain his arrival?
[18:10] He had a postBody from his King
[18:10] and was he eager to deliver this postBody now?
[18:11] no, now he just wanted to get away
[18:12] So what choices was he given?
[18:12] to wait for the King or go to the tower
[18:13] and so Grima and Saruman are once again united as a
happy family.
[18:13] they deserve each other
[18:13] This chapter ends with the fellowship finishing their
stories and their smoke. One think troubles Aragorn as he smokes his
pipe. What?
[18:14] I think Virumor mentioned this earlier
[18:14] the leaf from the Southfarthing in Isengard
[18:15] yes, there had to be a connection in the Shire.
[18:15] We are now ready to go on to "The Voice of Saruman"
[18:15] two years' ago crop
[18:16] Pippin and Merry seem to still underestimate the power
of Saruman as they relish in victory. But Gandalf cautions them of
something. What?
[18:17] Don't go there with a light heart
[18:17] why not?
[18:18] he could put a spell on them
[18:18] Why does Saruman still pose a threat?
[18:18] He still has his staff and his voice
[18:19] yes, both very dangerous
[18:19] gandalf broke the staff
[18:19] only his henchmen have been concoured
[18:19] yes, he did, vir.
[18:19] so, only voice over
[18:19] snake has one tooth left
[18:19] good night *leaves*
[18:19] What about Saruman's voice?
[18:20] enchanting
[18:21] still works
[18:21] most reasonable
[18:21] seemed wise
[18:21] only gandalf, ellrond and galadriel are safe alone
with saruman
[18:21] and sauron,
[18:22] he makes them believe lke they are a bunch of rude
peasants, invading his home
[18:22] or something
[18:22] none rejected its commands without an effort of mind
and will.
[18:22] From the tower, the tone was that of a kindly heart
aggrieved by injuries undeserved.
[18:23] What does he offer Theoden?
[18:23] peace
[18:23] "The words of this wizard stand on thier heads"
[18:23] but only gandalf doesn't fall for it
[18:24] oh, not only Gandalf. Someone else brought a flash of
anger to Saruman's voice.
[18:24] aragorn
[18:25] when Saruman sweet talks to one, the others can
now see through it, he looses control of them
[18:25] Eomer calls him a liar and this angers Saruman. But
one for a moment then he turns sweet again
[18:25] He appeals to Gandalf
[18:25] "I bore you no ill-will"
[18:26] gili
[18:26] they didn't fall for it, because of gandalf's presence
[18:26] gimli*
[18:27] gandalf had narya, after all strenghtening their hearts
[18:27] that was probably when he understood he couldn't beat
Gandalf, so he made a last effort to have Gandalf join him.
[18:27] Many of the others are under the spell of Saruman's
voice. and when Gandalf rejected Saruman's "peace offering" a shadow
of doubt entered their minds.
[18:27] "He will betray us, he will go, we shall be lost"
[18:28] Sorry, that was before Gandalf rejected Saruman.
[18:28] When he did, how did Saruman's voice change?
[18:28] And Gandalf laughed at Saurman
[18:30] Did you notice the colour of Saruman's cloak when he
came out onto the balcony?
[18:30] shimering?
[18:31] no real colour to speak of.
[18:31] What did Gandalf tell Saruman of his position in the
order now?
[18:32] he said he was out of the order
[18:32] he was cast out of the order
[18:32] yes, "You have not colour now and I cast you..."
[18:32] no*
[18:33] I think that is why his cloak was no longer white.
[18:33] and out of the Council
[18:34] Saruman's final dismay came when he discovered that
Grima threw something of great importance out the window. What was it?
[18:34] I think his cloak was changed when the met in Book
II
[18:34] they*
[18:34] It was a Palantir, one of the last that still existed
[18:34] an orb
[18:34] I think you are correct Grondy. I just never took much
notice of it until Gandalf said "You have no colour"
[18:35] One of those things that sort of click after you have
absorbed what is going on.
[18:35] never noticed that
[18:36] A nice quote from Gandalf "Often does hatred hurt
itself"
[18:36] I never noticed it before reading it again this time,
Virumor.
[18:37] i don't see what the colour of his cloth has to do
with gandalf throwing him out of the order
[18:37] Aragorn earlier returned the hoobits swords too
[18:38] maybe it was just an illusion that gandalf broke by
shattering saruman's spells
[18:38] well, it seemed that the colour of their cloaks were
of significance. Gandalf the Grey became Gandalf the White and his
cloak was then white
[18:38] Virumor, that is a good point.
[18:39] yes, Grondmaster and the Elvish brooch to Pippin.
[18:39] With his staff gone and his expulsion from the order,
would Saruman still pose a threat to men?
[18:40] well galadriel clothed gandalf in white becoz she saw
he bacme wizard nr 1
[18:40] * Rawien (lightning@dm-33811.ipt.aol.com) has left #bilbos-study
[18:40] Was your flotsam point the tobacco and the jetsam
the Palantir
[18:40] well, he was busy messing around in the shire so yes
[18:40] ?
[18:40] yes, Grondy, that is exactly what I was referring to.
[18:41] thank-you for reminding me.
[18:41] Both had major contributions to the future story
[18:41] very much so.
[18:42] without the palantir minas tirith would have fallen
[18:42] Poor Grima, he had no idea what he had done
[18:42] and maybe the witchking would not have been killed
[18:42] And poor Pippin, he had no idea what he had touched.
[18:43] coz aragorn didn't make eowyn desperate etc etc
[18:43] This ends tonights discussion.
[18:43] so, it's true that hatred hurted itself
[18:43] it u look at what grima did
[18:43] Thanks for another good one Nell
[18:43] For this Thursday, we will finish off this book. So
just one chapter where we only have a couple of days.
[18:44] The Palantir for Thursday.
[18:44] ok
[18:45] I'll try to put up a notice on the Home Page
[18:45] thank-you, I really appreciate it.
End of #bilbos-study buffer Sun Oct 26 18:45:41 2003
Bilbos-study discussion log from October 30th:

Start of #bilbos-study buffer: Thu Oct 30 19:09:50 2003 [17:30] * Now talking in #bilbos-study
[17:30] * Topic is 'Welcome to the Planet-Tolkien Classroom. If we do
not have a class discussion going on at the moment join us in #tolkien '
[17:30] * Set by Rednell on Sun Sep 07 21:27:18
[17:30] * ChanServ sets mode: +o Rednell

[17:49] ok, We are discussing chapter XI The Palantir
[17:49] ah, ok. Smile Smilie
[17:50] The setting is just before sunset: Sunlight shining
in the sky but long shadoes reached over Isengard, grey ruins falling
onto darkness.
[17:50] a still relaxed early evening
[17:50] What pleasant thought did this bring to the Hobbits?
[17:50] pass
[17:51] their first meeting with Treebeard
[17:51] Haven't got my LotR book with me.
[17:51] that is right Grondy. What kind of feeling do you
think that would be?
[17:52] Or why would it bring pleasant feelings?
[17:53] warm fuzzy, except filled with anticipation for
the near future
[17:53] they were now with friends
[17:54] I think they are very comfortable with their thoughts
about Treebeard and the Ents after they related their story to
Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli.
[17:54] If you remember, they had a hard time describing the
Ents at first.
[17:55] Merry refers to himself as a "rag-tag dangling", where
did he get that term?
[17:56] Saruman said something like "I see you ave some of
those with you"
[17:56] yes, it was a term Saruman used.
[17:57] Gandalf immediately offered words of comfort to Merry.
What did he say?
[17:57] that saruman would ask himself what those lil dudes
did there at aragorn's side
[17:58] be thankful he didn't use stronger words against
the HOBBITS AND NOT TO WORRY ABOUT IT
[17:59] darned cap lock button!
[17:59] That Merry and Pippin were more in Saruman's thoughts
than any of the others
[17:59] But did Merry really need to be consoled about the
term?
[18:00] No, he flet to be with Gandalf was a greater honor
[18:01] not really, hobbits don't care about that stuff
[18:01] correct, he was really just interested in when they
were going to lie down and get some rest.
[18:02] "Nothing or a double helping is your way." Who said
that and what was he mean?
[18:02] typical hobbit :where do we eart and sleep?
[18:02] apparently frodo wasn't a typical hobbit then
[18:03] Frodo had a ring on his mind or he also would have
[18:03] Gandalf told Merry more than he wanted to know
[18:04] yep, when it comes to the Hobbits, Gandalf is either
closed mouth or tells more than what they asked for.
[18:04] he only wanted to know about tonights lodging and
he found out out a yweek's worth
[18:05] All except Pippin. Why did Pippin envy Merry?
[18:05] pippin was already restless because he saw the
palantir's shining
[18:06] He seemed to be very drawn to it, why do you suppose
he was?
[18:06] who? pippin?
[18:06] yes,
[18:06] Because Pippin was stuck with Aragorn
[18:06] because when the palantir fell and pip picked up, he
saw colours or somethin
[18:06] in the planatir
[18:06] right
[18:07] palantir¨¨¨¨
[18:07] Yes Grondy, that as why Pippin envied Merry. He really
wanted to ride with Gandalf and get all the gossip.
[18:07] Yes, Vir, I think once Pippin had touched the
Palantir, he was drawn to it.
[18:08] as anyone probably would be, in cluding Gandalf
[18:08] Wait a min...I am confused....why did
Pippin envy Merry?
[18:08] Merry noticed Pippin's obbession, but it seemed
Gandalf missed it.
[18:08] because he was pondering about the connection between
orthanc and barad-dur
[18:08] Aule, because Merry rode with Gandalf
[18:09] so it would seem, vir.
[18:09] when? I can´t remember....All I can
think of is that Pippin rode with Gandy to Minas Tirith
[18:09] after Pip looked into the palantir, mahal
[18:09] How did Pippin refer to gandalf's guarding the
Palantir?
[18:09] as a chicken on an egg
[18:10] Merry got his questions answered, while Pippin's
about the Palantir remained unanswered
[18:10] hehe
[18:10] aha
[18:10] 'as a chicken on an egg' yes indeed
[18:10] i think
[18:10] brooder hen type chicken
[18:11] something like that, yes
[18:11] mother to be hen
[18:11] Driven by some impulse that he did not understand,
Pippin walked softly to where Gandalf lay. What was his intention?
[18:12] just look at the colours again
[18:12] for a moment
[18:12] What did Pippin do?
[18:13] he replaced it with a rock, and took it
[18:13] 'took' it
[18:13] what a pun
[18:13] then he went to a small hill, and looked in it
[18:13] What did he see?
[18:13] The Took took it.
[18:13] black
[18:14] he saw tower with birdlike creatures flyin around it
[18:14] then he saw 'him'
[18:14] looks like Sauron didn't send his Eye for once
[18:14] fire, spinning
[18:15] and a birdlike creature filled the entire orb, or
somethin too
[18:15] sounded very mesmirzing
[18:15] mesmerizing
[18:15] and he was mentally glombed on to by Sauron
[18:16] What happened to Pippin?
[18:16] yeh he asked "who are you?" then he thought it was the
ringbearer and that saruman made him watch it as a torture
[18:16] he had to answer sauron's questions
[18:16] he screamed and went into a sort of trance
[18:16] then suddenly, he made a cry and fell on his back
[18:17] But Sauron said: "Tell Saruman that
this dainty is not for him" or something like that:P
[18:17] What words came out of his mouth?
[18:17] who? Sauron or Peregrin?
[18:18] well, the words came out of Peregrin's mouth
[18:18] sauron said 'say just that'
[18:18] in the end
[18:18] it is not for you Saruman,; I wiill send for it.
[18:19] Why would those words come out of Pippin's mouth?
[18:19] because one could not speak through
the palantír
[18:19] because sauron used him as a postBody board?
[18:20] it was only images and
telepathic....so everything was mute so to speak...except for the one
looking into the palantír
[18:20] Pippin was used as the channel to Saruman because
voice couldn't transmit only mental images
[18:20] but it would seem that Sauron could see Pippin
[18:20] well, saruman didn't look in it; so pippin had to tell
it to saruman
[18:21] because pip looked into it...
[18:21] When pressed, what did Pippin say he say in the
Palantir?
[18:21] and of course Sauron thought Pippin was in Orthanc
[18:21] indeed
[18:22] a Bur-hobbit?
[18:22] that would be the most logical conclusion for sauron,
yes
[18:23] especially when he gives Pippin the postBody to give to
Saruman
[18:23] that was before he thought saruman betrayed him,
clearly
[18:24] he's a wise fool, after all
[18:24] It certainly indicates that, however, Sauron didn't
really trust Saruman
[18:24] as soon as Pippin told him he was a hobbit, Saron
quit his interrorgation
[18:24] i think sauron didn't really trust anyone
[18:24] safe for his illustrious master, Morgoth
[18:25] althought that was fear
[18:25] Pippin asks for forgiveness after Gandalf revives him,
did he forgive him?
[18:25] don't forget Saruman and Sauron were maiar from Aule
in old times, so i think there was some trust
[18:25] or they thought in the same way
[18:25] Yes Gandalf forgave Pippin
[18:26] If Sauron trusted Saruman, he would not be sending
Nazgul to check up on him
[18:26] he sent a nazgul to pick up the hobbit
[18:26] sauron thought saruman guarded the west for him
[18:26] to pick up the halfling with the ringy
[18:26] he also sent before hand one to chech up on Saruman
[18:27] yes, that becomes clearer near the end of this chapter.
[18:27] that was the one that flies over in a few minutes
and breaks up the party
[18:27] Gandalf tells Pippin to be comforted things have not
turned out as evilly as they might of.
[18:28] Hobbits have amazing power of recovery.
[18:28] gandalf then went to MT with pippin to make him
understand what he did
[18:28] i mean, how important the palantir is
[18:28] In fact that it kept Gandalf from being revealed
[18:28] Aragorn told of the Palantirs.
[18:28] Which one was this?
[18:29] just a minor palantir
[18:29] i don't understand the question
[18:29] one of seven
[18:29] Palantir of Orthanc from the treasury of Elendil, set
here by the Kings of Gondor
[18:29] it was the one placed by Elendil in Orthanc
[18:30] by Elendil?
[18:30] yes,
[18:30] what did Elendil do in Gondor?
[18:30] Why did Gandalf bow and give the Palantir to Aragorn.
[18:31] dunno, gandalf thought aragorn was king already,
apparently
[18:31] others were in Minas Ithil, Minas Tirith, Amon
Sul, and Osgiliath
[18:31] or he wanted to show him it was time for aragorn to
reveal him
[18:31] and in Elostirion, right
[18:31] because Aragorn was the righteous
owner of the Palantír?
[18:31] Not yet, I think he did it because Aragorn was the
rightful owner of the Palantir
[18:31] Because as heir to the Kingdom he was rightful
owner of it
[18:32] since it was given to the house of
Amandil from the Elves of Tol Eressëa?
[18:32] given to the lords of Andunië, yes
[18:32] yes
[18:33] Gandalf warned Aragorn not to use it yet
[18:33] but he did:P
[18:34] Keep him, Sauron guessing for a while yet
[18:34] pfft, Morgoth would have crushed them all like a fly
[18:34] i miss him
[18:34] when the time was right he did. However, not at this
particular time. In fact, was Aragorn tempted to use it?
[18:34] no
[18:35] he didn't use it until after book four
[18:35] i think it only occurred to him at helm's deep, after
his mates arrived and after elrohir told him by the paths of the death
[18:36] about th epaths of the dead¨¨¨¨
[18:36] which is in book Five
[18:36] Actually Aragorn's will was tested because he desired
to see if he could not wrench it from Sauron and turn it towards the
wide sea and preceive the mind of Feanor
[18:36] hmmmm
[18:36] really?
[18:36] didn't gandalf say that feanor thing? and if he could
see tirion and such?
[18:37] that was gandalf
[18:37] Just a sec
[18:37] gandalf mentions he's tempted
[18:37] in the chapter 'minas tirith'
[18:37] I think it was Gandalf
[18:38] yes, you are correct.
[18:38] ok
[18:38] Sorry about that
[18:38] no worries
[18:39] if the teacher doesn't also learn something it is
a poor class
[18:40] Gandalf figures that Saruman is now in big trouble
with Sauron, why?
[18:41] sauron'll think saruman has the ring but refuses to
give it
[18:41] because he can't contact Barad-Dur
[18:41] because pip looked into the palantir
[18:41] because now Sauron know that Saruman
intended to keep the Ring for himself if he finds it
[18:41] and to Sauron he had found it already
[18:42] sauruman
[18:42] heh
[18:42] and Sauron is naturally suspicious
[18:42] maiar from Aule unite !!
[18:42] of courseWink Smilie
[18:42] The bestBig Smile Smilie
[18:42] u wicked man :P
[18:42] hehe
[18:42] With no seeing stone he cannot answer Saurons' summons
[18:43] Rule One: No smilies please!
[18:43] sauron sent a nazgul to orthanc
[18:43] and saruman will tell the nazgul he hasn't got a ring
nor halfling
[18:43] so sauron'll think : 'sure, dude'
[18:43] ok...sorry bub
[18:43] Even though Isngard lies in ruins, Saruman is safe in
Orthanc. That is not going to look good.
[18:44] yes,gandalf believe he is still able to hold off 9
nazgul
[18:44] maybe by using his voice
[18:44] but the first Nazgul doens't know all that, he is
just checking to see if the raiding party showed up
[18:44] so it will return to report to Sauron
[18:44] well, Gandalf does not underestimate Saruman's powers
[18:44] and then sauron will sent the 9
[18:44] the second one is where the fan gets hit
[18:46] i hope saruman has enough food and water in his tower
[18:46] and that will not happen for another day, so
everyone had best get far away and travel inconspicultivly
[18:46] well, nazgul fly very fast
[18:46] Earlier when Pippin asks Gandalf for forgiveness,
Gandalf is very forgiving, now harm done, etc. Pippin seems very
repentive. But when Pippin says "I had not notion of what I was doing"
after all was revealed about the Palantir, how did gandalf react?
[18:46] they are the middle-earth concordes, pretty much
[18:47] Oh, you knew what you were doing alright
[18:47] gandlaf says somethin like it was his own fault
[18:47] i should have known you were under its spell but i was
too occupied myself
[18:48] or somethin like that
[18:49] * Aule_watching_The-Matrix is now known as Aule
[18:49] yes, earlier, Gandalf seemed willing to take full
responsibility because he was too occuppied. But after Pippin decides
that he is blameless, Gandalf is much harsher with him
[18:49] i don't remember that
[18:49] "Fool of a Took" does it again
[18:50] [18:47] Oh, you knew what you were doing
alright
[18:50] Yup, he knew he was doing wrong
[18:50] yes, but his wrong-doing proved decisive in the end
[18:51] "evil often mars evil"
[18:51] Pippin was very childlike, really. Typical hobbit
fashion. Once the explanations are out there and someone else
shoulders some of the blame, then he must be blameless then.
[18:52] "Burned hand teaches. Best after that advice about
fire goes to the heart" - Gandalf
[18:52] "evil often mars evil"<----I never did get
that quote
[18:52] he wasn't adult after all
[18:52] not 33 yet
[18:52] that was from Theoden a couple pages earlier
[18:54] "oft evil will shall evil mar" is the correct
quote
[18:54] Strange powers have our enemies and strange weaknesses.
[18:55] ok
[18:55] I think he is referring to the link between Mordor and
Isengard. At this point they do not know how Saruman and Sauron are
communicating,.
[18:55] gandalf doesn't know for sure
[18:57] Theoden said that right after they kenw the
Palantir was the link
[18:57] Do you remember a quote futher back "Often does hatred
hurt itself."? I see "Oft evil will shall evil mar" as very similar
[18:58] ok...thanks Nell
[18:58] well, you can say the same for good
[18:58] "good often hurts good"
[18:58] anyway
[18:58] so far for the wisdom
[18:58] Merry doesn't seem to have a lot to say here, but it
seems evident that he is not happy. Why not?
[18:59] he thinx he will be left like a piece of luggage
[18:59] and because pip stole it, but become the hero of the
evening
[18:59] it, being the palantir
[18:59] yeah, he mentions that in later chapters, but I think
that it does apply here too.
[18:59] the luggage thing comes later on
[18:59] sorry
[19:01] All Merry wanted to do was sleep and now that plan
is ruined because Pippin couldn't and got in trouble
[19:01] I think Merry is acting in the typical child-like
nature of the Hobbit. Pippin wanted to ride with Gandalf and gets to
do just that because of his bad behaviour. Pippin acts naughty, gets
attention and gets to go to Minas Tirith with Gandalf. And what does
Merry get?
[19:01] he gets his share of glory later on
[19:01] to ride with Aragorn to Helm's Deep
[19:01] he can't complain
[19:01] but not here and the here and now is what is important
to Merry
[19:02] to sleep
[19:02] He has been tossed aside by Gandalf. Riding with
Gandalf would indeed have been preceived as an honour.
[19:03] Yet he earlier had offered to give that up to
Pippin
[19:03] Not to mention, Gandalf and Merry were having some
nice conversation before Pippin ruined everyone's good night's rest.
[19:03] but of course that was trying to get Pippin to
sleep
[19:04] Grondy, that was when they were all going to the same
destination. The plans have changed
[19:04] true
[19:04] Merry is definitely not a happy camper here and Pippin
is quite delighted.
[19:05] well, Merry will have his share of glory too later on
[19:05] Merry was just proving he is part of the family
human
[19:05] i remember Pippin feeling the same later on, when
Merry leaves for the Dagorlad
[19:05] ehhh, it was otherwise
[19:05] dang
[19:05] Is there anything else we should look at in this
chapter before moving on to Book Four next week?
[19:05] there goes my nice theory
[19:07] We will look at The Taming of Smeagol and The Passage
of the Marshes next week. I would like to get through the 2 chapters
so we can have TTT finished before the release of the next film
[19:07] Well we could say where each party is headed as
book three ends
[19:08] ok, Grondy. Where is everyone headed at this point?
[19:08] it ends with the nazgul flying over their heads
[19:08] gandalf and pip to MT
[19:08] merry, legolamb, gimli and théoden to helm's deep
[19:08] Gandalf and Pippin are headed to Minas Tirith
[19:09] Sam and Frodo are still headed to Mordor
[19:09] And now we are going to catch up with Frodo and Sam
[19:09] Thanks everyone and see you next week.

End of #bilbos-study buffer Thu Oct 30 19:09:50 2003
Here is the log from Nov 6th: The Taming of Smeagol
Start of #bilbos-study buffer: Thu Nov 06 19:31:29 2003 [17:36] * Now talking in #bilbos-study
[17:36] * ChanServ (services@darkmyst.org) has joined #bilbos-study
[17:36] * ChanServ sets mode: +o ChanServ
[17:36] * ChanServ changes topic to 'Welcome to the Planet-Tolkien
Classroom. If we do not have a class discussion going on at the moment
join us in #tolkien (Rednell)'
[17:36] * ChanServ sets mode: +ntr.
[18:09] ok, let's begin.
[18:09] What is the situation we find Frodo and Sam in
as Book Four begins?
[18:10] bleak
[18:10] why is the situation bleak?
[18:10] They're wandering in circles around Emyn Muil
[18:10] book four? I'm sorry, are we talking about the
second book in TTT?
[18:10] can't get there from here
[18:10] yes aire, chapter one in the second book of TTT
[18:10] Yes Aire, we
[18:11] are*
[18:11] ok, thank you
[18:11] Book 4 Chapter 1 in Two Towers, The Taming of
Smeagol
[18:11] ok, ty for clearing that up
[18:12] yes, it is bleak as they seem to be going in
circles.
[18:12] What is the irony that Sam mentions?
[18:12] that the one place they don't want to be in, is the
exact place they are trying to reach...
[18:12] They don't want to go any closer but it's where they're
going.
[18:12] they can't get to where they don't want to, but
must go
[18:13] and where they can't got to nohow
[18:13] yep
[18:13] Why was Frod not concerned that they would not
find their way?
[18:14] He felt it was his fate to get there?
[18:14] because the ring dragged him to Mordor?
[18:14] "It is my doom, I think to go to that Shadow
younder so that a way will be found. But were good or evil shot it to
me"
[18:14] He thinks it's his 'doom' to 'go to that Shadow yonder'
[18:14] yes, exactly
[18:15] It seemed up to this point in there journey as
we noticed in previous chapters that "good" seemed to be guiding
fate's hand Frodo's quest. However, we now see that perhaps "evil"
will play a part in it.
[18:15] and he now thinks they should have left the
company earlier and gone farther to the east
[18:16] Why does Frodo think that "evil" is showing it
now?
[18:16] yes, he does, Grondy
[18:17] "Delay plays into the enemy's hands - and here
I am delayed."
[18:17] * Aire_painting is now known as Airecristiel
[18:18] What is causing them delay at this point?
[18:18] walking in circles, chasm
[18:18] not finding the right path to go
[18:18] Sam is prepared to do something about it though,
what?
[18:19] he heas got a rope
[18:20] he doesn't remember having the rope right away.
[18:20] that's because he's sam
[18:20] yes, Sam the Brave. Sam's logic was that he
should attempt to climb down the chasm first
[18:21] he actually started to climb, but frodo stopped him
didn't he?
[18:21] yes, Perwing
[18:21] dunno don
[18:21] t have the book here right now
[18:22] same here
[18:22] Sam felt the person who is the most likely to
slip should climb down first and therefore won't fall on top of Frodo.
"No sense in killin two with one fall"
[18:23] yes if sam would fall on frodo he would have been
squished
[18:23] hello
[18:23] hi mellie and ladyfeqwen
[18:24] so what are we discussing?
[18:24] and Perwing is correct, Sam did attempt to climb
down and Frodo grabbed him and hauled him back up, telling him to wait
and be patient
[18:24] Hi vir
[18:24] The Taming of Sméagol chapter, Mellie
[18:25] So Sam suggests waiting until daylight then, but
Frodo becomes strangely violent in his tone of voice.
[18:26] he feels that they don't have time for that
[18:26] or he is a nasty old hobbit
[18:26] yes, Vir. Strange since he just told Sam to be
patient
[18:26] yes,poor old sam can't do anything right
[18:27] "Delay plays into the Enemy's hands ... Every day that
passes is a precious day lost."
[18:27] thanks, Arco.
[18:28] What happens when Frodo makes the rash decision
to climb down the chasm in the dark?
[18:28] he falls down
[18:28] pass
[18:28] but not far
[18:28] right, Perwing. What do they hear?
[18:29] the scream of the nazgul
[18:29] that's why he looses his grip
[18:29] that was after sam decided to use the rope? i am
confused
[18:29] he let go of the chasm and tries to cover his ears
[18:29] sam hasn't remembered the rope yet
[18:29] how clever
[18:30] Virumor, Sam now remembers the rope so he can
"save" Frodo.
[18:30] you said it; he's Sam..
[18:30] not the brightest of hobbits, but he's essential to the
plotline and actually sees some things that brighter ppl missed.
[18:30] so when does frodo fall? when he uses the rope or does
he just get his hands on the rock?
[18:30] well he doesn' remember it before Frodo says from down
there: "you can't do nothing without a rope.."
[18:31] right
[18:31] Frodo tries to climb down without the rope first Vir
[18:31] another brilliant plan
[18:31] yes i remember now
[18:31] after he has fallen down a bit, he says that to Sam,
and sam remember he has a rope
[18:31] Frodo actually slid down because he covered his
ears to block out the screaming sound of the Nazgul
[18:32] yes
[18:32] yup
[18:32] think i already said that..
[18:32] yes
[18:33] yes, you had said that, Per
[18:34] lol,yea
[18:34] oh, I'm sorry, I haven't got that either.. I'll
look for it
[18:34] Poor Sam, he uses rope to manage their decent
but is upset.
[18:34] sam has to find a rock
[18:34] He doesn't want to leave the rope
[18:34] he has underestimated the elves
[18:34] right, Aire
[18:34] bye Arco!
[18:35] but the rope comes down by itself
[18:35] well he's in for a pleasant surprise though..
[18:35] apparently, they put their souls into everything they
make
[18:35] But not only is he concerned about losing the
rope, he is concerned about someone else using it.
[18:35] yeh
[18:35] but gollum has sticky hands and feet
[18:36] evil always finds a way
[18:36] yes, what does Tolkien compare Gollum to?
[18:36] a spider
[18:36] yes
[18:36] huuuuh
[18:36] spider with 6 legs pulled out
[18:36] reminds me of my childhood
[18:37] you had sticky hands and feet, Virumor?
[18:37] that discussion is tuesday Vir... lol
[18:37] lol
[18:37] hehe
[18:37] no i loved to pull legs out of spiders
[18:38] anyway, pls move on Nell..
[18:38] and blowing up toads
[18:38] biological terrorism
[18:38] yuck!
[18:38] off topiv
[18:38] topic*
[18:38] What is going on with Gollum?
[18:38] he follows them
[18:38] he wants his preciousssssss back
[18:39] Gollum is just following the ring, he doesn't really
care about them
[18:39] Gollum mentions "precious" often when he is
speaking in the third person.
[18:39] he does care about them : he wants to kill them
[18:40] i mean, they are just someone that stands between him
and his precious.
[18:40] strangle them because they ssttttolle it from them
[18:41] How was Sam feeling towards Gollum?
[18:41] he saw gollum as evil
[18:41] didnt trust him, wanted frodo to put Sting thru
gollum's small neck
[18:42] what happened when Sam attacked Gollum?
[18:42] sam underestimated gollum's power
[18:42] gollum defeated him, but frodo had to save his
side-kick
[18:42] by threatening to cut-throat golly
[18:44] heh, TTT is on
[18:44] so far for the quality
[18:44] How did Frodo think he could use Gollum?
[18:44] like a guide
[18:44] gollum had been in mordor before
[18:44] he thought gollum knew the way to mordor
[18:45] to use a movie quote : you know the way to Mordor
*sissy voice*
[18:45] lol
[18:45] so they tried to tie him up with that elven rope
[18:45] but it didn't work out to well
[18:46] why not, Vir?
[18:46] elvish abracadabra
[18:46] Gollum couldn't stand the ropes
[18:46] bad elvessss
[18:46] they hurt him
[18:46] elves like to hurt evil guys, apparently
[18:47] and then frodo made him swore an oath
[18:47] after he told sam to uninstall the rope
[18:48] what did he swear the oath on?
[18:48] on the precious, but frodo refused this
[18:48] tha preciousss
[18:48] because it would betray him
[18:48] yup
[18:48] exactly
[18:48] so he swore the oath of feanor
[18:49] kiddin
[18:49] besides, he made him swear that oath before he told
sam to remove the rope, just for the record..
[18:49] he kinda did pull a Feanor there Vir.
[18:49] That's right Perwing
[18:49] but why did Frodo not accept Gollum's oath on
the precious?
[18:50] because golly will never get ther ing back
[18:50] the ring*
[18:50] cause it would twist his words and betray him
[18:50] the ring ain't his posssesiion anymore
[18:50] possession*
[18:50] he could swear BY it, but not ON it in the end..
[18:51] yes, Per, why was that?
[18:51] because the Ring was too small to stand on
[18:52] ok only my own personal opinion here; cause then he
would accept Frodo as the Ring's Master, and be true to his word
[18:52] To swear on something you have to touch it.
Frodo did not want Gollum to touch the ring.
[18:52] yup
[18:53] he made him swear to "serve the precious' Master"
[18:53] all lies
[18:53] and Gollum certainly appeared to change.
[18:53] i'm not so sure he really lied vir..
[18:53] because his Deagol side had the upperhand
[18:54] yes, Vir. Tolkien writes" a change, which lasted
for some time, came over him" which would indicate that the change was
not going to last forever.
[18:54] huh?
[18:54] his Gollum side made him betray Frodo
[18:54] Deagol was his friend from before, the one he killed
and took the ring from.
[18:54] Smeagol
[18:54] that was when Gollum seemed to be very happy, almost
like a dog, and giving them fish and stuff
[18:54] I think he meant Smeagol
[18:55] Do you get the impression that Smeagol/Gollum is
a reflection of Good/Evil in one person?
[18:56] yes
[18:56] just want to make sure we are talking about the same
and that i haven't forgotten something important...
[18:56] dunno
[18:56] Smeagol wasnt good he killed deagol
[18:56] Whose words come back to Frodo when Sam wants to
kill Gollum?
[18:56] but that was because he was blinded by the ring
[18:56] Gandalf
[18:56] smeagol just thinx he will get back the ring in a
friendly way
[18:57] 's words
[18:57] Gandalfs
[18:57] gollum thinx to get the ring back by killing
[18:57] So vir, you think that Smeagol is every bit as
evil as Gollum?
[18:57] dunno
[18:57] true Vir, don't think Smeagol is like a "good-guy"
(but better than gollum-side at least)
[18:57] gollum grew out of smeagol
[18:58] the ring made the evil in smeagol grow and enlarge
[18:58] well, perhaps not good/evil, but evil/better?
[18:58] not AS evil, but certainly not all good either Nell.
[18:58] everyone has sone evil in them just as they have
some good
[18:58] and Shelob was Smeagol's idea...
[18:58] Has Gollum got any good in him then?
[18:58] yes that is true Grondy.
[18:58] this is true. Perhaps Gollum was the only way
Smeagol could deal with the evil deed he had done to gain possession
of the ring
[18:58] How is that Perwing?
[18:59] when he planned to give the hobbits to shelob
[18:59] and getting the ring back that way
[18:59] I thought that was Gollum. oh well. Smile Smilie
[18:59] he planned this during that schizophrenic convo
[18:59] gollum is more a symbiosis of two sides
[19:00] Gollum is evil Smeagol wants to be good
[19:00] I get that impression too Grondmaster.
[19:00] good point Grondy, Smeagol just doesn't succeed too
well.
[19:00] true,
[19:00] but at least he tries
[19:00] smeagol is just confused
[19:00] Perhaps Smeagol wants to make up for the evil
deeds he did before
[19:01] he doesn't get why the ring goes to mordor
[19:01] He does only for a while as Nell said
[19:01] i always felt sorry for Smeagol,
[19:01] so gollum is able to persuade him to go to shelob
[19:01] I still think Smeagol isn't exactly good. He's no
Frodo.
[19:01] smeagol is the former river ppl side
[19:01] Frodo isn't all good either btw.
[19:01] when smeagol was with the river ppl, he was already
sneaky
[19:01] well, he could not be too good to kill his best friend
for the ring, but .... he was not evil either,
[19:01] were talking relative here not pure
[19:02] no, but he's got more good in him than Smeagol,
hasn't he?
[19:02] i think is was more of the rings influence than Smeago
being bad
[19:02] true vir. I think there was little Smeagol left
in Gollum until the capture by Frodo and Sam
[19:02] exactly Mellie
[19:02] smeagol succumbed to the ring
[19:02] yes he did
[19:02] frodo only succumbed in the end
[19:02] but Smeagol had the ring for 500 years..
[19:03] Frodo had it for what? 12-13??
[19:03] yes, and still no sign of rust on it
[19:03] the kindness shown by Frodo brought out what
goodness remained in Smeagol
[19:03] 17 years
[19:03] it was easier for smeagol to succumb to the ring
because his heart was not as good as Frodos
[19:03] it was that long?? hmm, oki
[19:03] and Smeagol committed an evil act to gain
possession of the Ring. Frodo did not
[19:03] frodo got it by accidence
[19:03] I think that Gollum impersonates Smeagols desire
for the ring. When he gets rid of that during one part, he's happy and
he wants to help his master. Then he's betrayed and the desire for the
ring comes back.
[19:03] so it affected gollum faster
[19:03] that is true Nell, Gandalf meant that that point was
important
[19:03] nope
[19:04] that's in the movies
[19:04] in the book he already decided to gio to shelob BEFORE
the forbidden pool
[19:04] it's in the books as well Vir.
[19:04] no
[19:04] hum, that's right.
[19:04] ok, so the desire comes back anyway.
[19:04] with or without betrayal
[19:04] and bilbo was not as affected by the ring either, and
he did not commit an evil act to get it either.
[19:04] i think Smeagol doesnt get why frodo goes to mordor
[19:04] Vir is right, he decides that before they are captured
i think
[19:04] why does he go to Sauron???
[19:05] so gollum manages to persuade smeagol to betray
[19:05] I think it is mentioned in this chapter that
Gollum was called back to Mordor
[19:05] called back?
[19:05] yea well Frodo never cares to explain it either.. if
it wasn't for Gandalf saying that frodo had to take it to Mordor, he
woudn't understood that either
[19:06] Sauron let Gollum lose so he also would seek the
Ring and return with it to Mordor
[19:06] sauron is amused by gollum
[19:06] because gollum is totally grounded down by the ring
[19:07] why would golly return to mordor with the ring?
[19:07] then he loses it immediately again
[19:08] well unfortunately i have to leave this discussion
[19:08] gollum wouldn't return with it! but when he wasn't out
searching for it anymore, then sauron would know it and understand
that he had it. then sauron would just send some nazgul to get it from
him. that's what i think at least
[19:08] because he is weak anSauron and the ring can
control him
[19:09] * Airecristiel (moonglow_@dm-4074.dsl.eulstx.swbell.net) Quit
(Connection reset by peer)
[19:10] Would Gollum not think the Ring would give him
power, just as Saruman felt as well?
[19:10] So his intent would have been to betray Sauron
[19:10] absolutely
[19:11] * Airecristiel is now known as Guest7347
[19:11] Was there any hope at all that Smeagol would be
rid of Gollum if the Ring were to be destroyed?
[19:12] * Guest7347 is now known as Aire
[19:12] No, probably not
[19:12] Frodo hoped there was
[19:12] He had had the ring for far too long
[19:13] Any speculation as to what could happen to
Gollum if the Ring were destroyed?
[19:13] i think he would have gone completely crazy (that
assumes he wasn't already..)
[19:14] I think it was the hunt for the ring that kept
Gollum alive
[19:14] good point Grondmaster
[19:15] He wouldn't have had any reason to live once his
precious was destroyed
[19:15] why not, Smeagol loved his fish.
[19:15] nope. that's why i think he would have gone c o m p l
e t l y bananas!! and probably die soon after.
[19:15] Gollum loved his precious.
[19:16] too much Gollum in him after all this time
[19:16] I often got the impression that Gollum referred
to himself as "precious" too.
[19:16] true
[19:16] hmm, never thought about that myself..
[19:17] I could never be sure when reading his dialogue
whether he was talking to the Ring, which he did not have anyway or
his other self.
[19:18] well i always thought of it like he spoke to the Ring,
because he still concidered it to be his
[19:19] But he talked to precious even when the ring
wasn't around
[19:19] He also states that Smeagol will swear on the
precious, not Gollum, but Smeagol.
[19:20] that just show's how little Smeagol there is left, and
that Gollum calls the shots.
[19:20] (i think)
[19:21] Smeagol called the shots until he learned the
actually wanted to go into Mordor, then Golum regained the upper hand
[19:22] Sam is much more suspicious of Smeagol than he
was of Gollum
[19:22] he liked the new one even less than the old one
[19:22] He nkew where he had Gollum
[19:22] Smeagol is harder to know where he is
[19:23] When Gollum is Gollum he is only Gollum, and it can't get
worse.
[19:23] that is an interesting point
[19:23] They know what they have to watch
[19:26] Sam is distrustful by nature; he wasn't sure
whether Smeagol was faking his goodness and therefore he had to be
even more alert that Frodo didn't come to harm from Smeagol
[19:26] Well, this is just the beginning of the part
Gollum has to play in the fate of the quest or anti-quest, as you
will.
Saturday night/evening/afternoon?
[19:30] On Saturday we will follow them throught the
marshes
[19:30] do we have a time saturday?? same as today? (and what
was that btw??)
[19:30] yes, same time Perwing
[19:30] 2130 GMT
[19:31] On Saturday, we will decide which time is the
best for the majority

End of #bilbos-study buffer Thu Nov 06 19:31:29 2003
Here is the log from November 8th discussion, The Passage of the Marshes:
Start of #bilbos-study buffer: Sat Nov 08 19:45:12 2003 [18:46] * Now talking in #bilbos-study
[18:46] * Topic is 'Welcome to the Planet-Tolkien Classroom. If we do
not have a class discussion going on at the moment join us in #tolkien '
[18:46] * Set by Rednell on Sun Sep 07 21:27:18
[18:46] * ChanServ sets mode: +o Rednell

[18:47] ok, before we were so rudely interrupted by the server
crashing we were talking about Gollum/Smeagol
[18:47] yes
[18:49] Vir had mentioned that Frodo had surfaced Smeagol when
he made Gollum swear by the precious to lead him to Mordor.
[18:49] Yeah...
[18:49] yes, i think that at the beginning of this chapter,
Sméagol had the upperhand
[18:49] Once this happened, we see Smeagol/Gollum a lot.
[18:49] I think you are correct, Vir
[18:51] I do like the way Tolkien has Smeagol and Gollum
speak. "Smeagol went this way once: I went this way, hiding from Orcs;"
[18:52] dunno, could be 'I' is Sméagol too
[18:52] he speaks rather peculiarly
[18:52] "I" refers to Gollum here
[18:52] did jrrt write that down?
[18:53] Yes, that is how JRRT wrote it. I think he wanted the
reader to realize that it was one person speaking in 2 voices.
[18:53] ok
[18:54] Gollum then sings. After Gollum's song, why was Sam
nervous?
[18:55] because he thinx he will eat them
[18:55] or somethin like that, while they're asleep
[18:55] yep
[18:55] But Sam vow to stay awake so that does not happen.
[18:55] he doesn't stay awake all the time, though
[18:56] No, of course, he can't manage that, but he does test
to make sure Gollum is fast asleep
[18:56] hey
[18:56] what chapter we up to?
[18:56] What word does he whisper in Gollum's ear to test him
[18:56] he planned to sleep for a couple of hours but he
slepts 9 hrs instead
[18:56] fish
[18:56] Chapter 11, The Passage of the Marshes
[18:57] yes fish
[18:57] actually, I was rather amused that he said "fissh"
[18:58] Seems almost like mockery to me.
[18:59] Describe the Dead Marshes.
[18:59] lots of mist
[18:59] stinky pools
[18:59] dead
[18:59] marshy
[19:00] dead spirits
[19:00] gurgling mud
[19:00] what about size?
[19:00] pretty big
[19:01] north of the Dagorlad
[19:01] yes, vir. "Wide stagnant meres"
[19:01] What did Sam see?
[19:01] lights and stuff
[19:01] but that's after they passed the middle of the marshes
i think
[19:02] must of been swamp gas or some such
[19:03] nope, it was sent by the spirits in the marshes
[19:03] probably, Rhodry. There certainly would have been a
lot of decaying organic materials
[19:03] True, Vir, but I still think it was really decaying
matter.
[19:03] i'm talkin bout the candles
[19:03] the lights
[19:04] the other stuff was probably gas
[19:04] how was the marshe's able to hold the spirets in the
first place?
[19:04] yes, the lights were the dead spirits
[19:04] gollum doesn't know
[19:04] spirits*
[19:04] Who are these spirits?
[19:04] from the ancient dagorlad battlefield
[19:04] fallen warriors
[19:05] Gollum mentions what races?
[19:05] gollum suspects that Sauron had somethin to do with
them being there
[19:05] elvesss, orcsss, mennnn
[19:05] What happened that really frightened Gollum?
[19:06] the nazgûl flying over
[19:06] interesting : this is the part where gollum's
character changed again
[19:06] i think now, gollum finally realizes they're going
into mordor
[19:06] maybe he remember the tortures and stuff
[19:07] [19:06] interesting : this is the part where
gollum's character changed again<---- very good observation, Vir
[19:08] i mean, soon after that comes the part where gollum
has his 'debate' tween his two character sides
[19:08] yep
[19:08] What physical change does Sam notice when he finds
Gollum talking to himself?
[19:09] his eyes change colour i think
[19:09] yes, that is right.
[19:09] From a pale light to a green light.
[19:10] Since in earlier chapters, Frodo describes Gollums
eyes as pale lamps, I am wondering if the green light represents
Smeagol?
[19:11] probably
[19:11] Smeagol is concerned about breaking the oath to Frodo,
how does Gollum see a way around that?
[19:12] i think it's strange gollum mentions later on that 3
nazgûl appeared
[19:13] i think the first time, when gollum's character
changed again, there are 2 nazgûl in fact
[19:13] one coming from mordor, one going to mordor
[19:13] and the one coming from mordor on his way to Orthanc
[19:14] well, gollum says 'she could help'
[19:14] did anyone count out the days and compare them to the
time frame of the events in Book Three?
[19:14] i didn't
[19:15] i haven't got the books right here so i can't do that
either srry
[19:15] i'm probably wrong
[19:15] "Yes, yes, to help the master, the master of the
Precious. But if we was master, then we could help oursefs,yes and
keep promises"
[19:16] Very clever, actually. Gollum is telling Smeagol that
his promise was made to the master of the Ring, therefore, if Gollum
takes it, then he is the master and the promise can be kept
[19:17] yes but if he takes it, he has to hurt the master
[19:17] so that would mean not keeping the promise
[19:17] so he wants the help of "she"
[19:17] precisely.
[19:18] What was Smeagol's reaction to Gollum's suggestion
that "she" might help?
[19:18] he agreed
[19:18] i think
[19:19] "No, no, Not that way."
[19:19] ok, i guess he didn't then
[19:19] hmm, so maybe basically at this point, gollum gives
the option to sméagol to go to 'she'
[19:20] but sméagol hasn't agreed fully
[19:20] yes, that is how I see it.
[19:20] so, only after the forbidden pool sméagol agrees
totally
[19:20] When I get there, I will read more closely. I suspect
Smeagol feels betrayed by the master so all bets are off.
[19:21] Do you see Gollum and Smeagol as two separate
characters?
[19:21] maybe in a way
[19:21] two sides of one character
[19:23] so perfectly divided.
[19:23] at this part of the chapter, yes
[19:24] Before this chapter, Gollum seemed to have complete
possession of the character
[19:25] yup
[19:25] As we read on in the book, we will see more blending
of the 2 personalities, I think
[19:25] sméagol is very unsure and easy to influence
[19:26] easy target for the ring he was
[19:26] yes, he was. But he must have had some inherent
"darkness" in his personality, in order for the Ring to influence him
to the point of committing murder
[19:27] yes i'm not sure but gandalf mentioned in chapter
'shadow of the past' that sméagol was already naughty before he had
the ring
[19:27] but i'm not sure bout this
[19:28] well how could Gandalf know this?
[19:28] Something to that effect, yes. It was Bilbo's pity
that protected from the evil influence of the Ring.
[19:29] Smeagol did not have that empathy, he was selfish,
wanted the Ring for himself.
[19:29] biblo hadn't any evil in him
[19:29] bilbo°
[19:29] interesting thought. So Tolkien has created characters
who are purely good?
[19:30] aule : gandalf talked to sméagol remember??
[19:30] well, i wouldn't say pure good
[19:30] no one except Eru is pure good
[19:31] bilbo was influenced by the ring too, he also had
trouble to leave it behind
[19:31] but the ring didn't change him
[19:31] his hcaracter i mean
[19:31] character°
[19:32] I think the "darkness" so to speak that Bilbo had was
needed for him to trick Gollum out of his Precious.
[19:32] Afterall, Bilbo had to have known that the Ring
belonged to Gollum
[19:32] yes
[19:33] Seeing Gollum/Smeagol must have been very fightening
for Sam to watch, as well as, fascinating
[19:34] gollum was largely affected by the ring, bilbo wasn't
[19:34] well physically but not really mentally
[19:34] Gollum had the Ring for a great deal of time longer
than Bilbo
[19:34] yes but gollum immediately commmitted a murder
[19:35] bilbo was able to hold back his hand when he had the
chance to kill
[19:36] You are correct, that act on Bilbos part was what
protected him from turning into another Gollum
[19:36] bilbo had greater strength of mind, anyway
[19:36] maybe it's something inherent in hobbits again
[19:36] Indeed, a very intelligent man, however, his riddle
was not a fair one
[19:37] i wonder why he did all that riddling; after all, he
had Sting with him
[19:37] hobbits are a bit too friendly sometimes
[19:38] why shed blood when it is not necessary. Besides, the
riddles were fun.
[19:38] gollum threatened to kill him if he lost
[19:38] not really fun
[19:38] but a good incentive to cheat
[19:38] so, it was or cheating or killing
[19:39] I suppose it did come down to the lesser of the 2
evils.
[19:40] if he had killed gollum, what would have happened one
can wonder
[19:40] then maybe sam would be forced to push frodo into the
fires
[19:40] now that's an end!
[19:40] lol, that is an interesting hypothesis.
[19:41] well, there wouldn't be another option
[19:41] we shall officially end tonight's discussion. Next
time "The Black Gate is Closed"and "Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit", I hope
Here is the log from November 15th:

Start of #bilbos-study buffer: Sat Nov 15 19:14:27 2003 [08:19] * Now talking in #bilbos-study
[08:19] * ChanServ (services@darkmyst.org) has joined #bilbos-study
[08:19] * ChanServ sets mode: +o ChanServ
[08:19] * ChanServ changes topic to 'Welcome to the Planet-Tolkien
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join us in #tolkien (Rednell)'

[17:36] I just realized I got here too early,
[17:36] hello vir
[17:36] So I'll take time out and finish rabbits and stew
[17:37] So, what chapter will we be discussing?
[17:37] Oh yeah okay then we wait...
[17:37] aehm Black Gate closed and rabbits and stew I think
[17:39] I read Black Gate again last night, but didn't
finish the second one
[17:47] mae govannen, Meldor! welcome to pt!
[17:54] ok, I think we can start now
[17:55] just a few reminders, no smilies, no actions as these
are a pain to remove before posting in the forum
[17:55] You're just in time.
[17:55] I think we will only get through The Black Gate is
Closed because there is a lot in there which will make great
discussion.
[17:56] sure, Nell
[17:56] ok, Nell

[17:56] What is the mood of Frodo and Sam as this chapter
opens?
[17:57] despair
[17:57] yes, Rawien
[17:57] they don't feel too well
[17:57] despairation
[17:57] Ring gets a bit heavy and such
[17:57] and Sam is always too heavy
[17:58] the Ring is indeed becoming more of a burden for Frodo
to bear
[17:58] What happens when they finally reach the Black Gate?
[17:59] too many enemy peopls about
[17:59] i'm srry i missed the last q
[17:59] What happens when they finally reach the Black Gate?
[17:59] they don't think they can get by.
[17:59] gate is closed
[17:59] they get affraid?
[18:00] (that was the q, Vir)
[18:00] then an army appears and gets in
[18:00] and they hear a horn
[18:00] "No use. We can't go further. Smeagol said so. He
said: we'll go to the Gate and then we'll see and we do see. Oh yes,
my precious, we do see. Smeagol knew Hobbits could not go this way. O
yes, Smeagol knew"
[18:00] Who said this?
[18:00] smeagol is very clever
[18:00] Gollum did
[18:01] indeed, virumor.
[18:01] The Gollum part of Seagol said it
[18:01] yes Arco
[18:01] So why did Gollum/Smeagol not tell Frodo that he could
not get through the Black Gate?
[18:01] if he says precious, it is Gollum
[18:01] maybe he forgot
[18:01] he didnt ask
[18:02] or he was busy with solving an important differential
equation
[18:02] Do you think Smeagol did this deliberately?
[18:02] probably
[18:02] ...Frodo asked to go to the Gate, but he didn't tell
Gollum that he actually planned to go through it.
[18:02] gollum knew they wouldn't be able to pass it anyway
[18:02] ok, good point in Smeagol's defense, Arco
[18:02] so it was safe to come up with cirith ungol
[18:03] yeahh
[18:03] if he immediately said 'hey let's go and see shelob'
[18:03] lol
[18:03] good point Vir
[18:03] it would've been a bit suspiscious
[18:03] What was Sam's perception after Gollum's statement?
[18:03] suspicious, as ever
[18:03] and annoyed
[18:03] he's as suspicious as chubby, it seems
[18:04] he thought both of Gollum's personalities had made a
truce and temporary alliance
[18:04] but when he thought about Cirith Ungol he was
Gollum and had planned to let Shelob have them
[18:04] I think this is the first time that I noticed Sam
treating Gollum and Smeagol as 2 individuals
[18:04] he treats both of them bad, anyway
[18:04] with and without reason, of course
[18:04] which goes along with what Arco says about the truce
[18:05] Sam was more suspicious of Smeagol than Gollum
[18:05] not really
[18:05] yes, I thought that too.
[18:05] he wasmore suspicous bout smeagol coz he was friendly
to frodon
[18:06] Frodo warns Smeagol that he is in danger.
[18:06] Slinker and Stinker
[18:06] Frodo did not say, Gollum, you are in danger, he said
Smeagol.
[18:07] smeagol had already agreed with gollum to go to
shelob, so lost cause
[18:07] what danger?
[18:07] that he was gonna berak the oath?
[18:08] "I did not mean the danger that wwe all share. I mean
a danger to yourself alone. You swore a promise by what you call the
Precious. Remember that! It will hold you to it, but it will see a
way to twist it to your own undoing"
[18:08] The ring would betray Seagol to a bitter end.
[18:09] So Frodo will have Smeagol believe. Was it just an
empty threat to try to gain control of Smeagol?
[18:09] the Ring betrays everyone within its grasp
[18:10] not everyone
[18:11] I don't think the threat was empty
[18:11] who would be protected from the Ring's control, Vir?
[18:11] why not, Grondy?
[18:11] Sauron
[18:11] Bombadil
[18:11] Eru
[18:11] Bombadil. good point
[18:12] but Sauron is protected because he made it, and Eru
because he made Sauron
[18:12] good points, Rawien
[18:13] well it's sauron's will inside the ring so
[18:13] because it did betray him in the last book or do
you mean Frodos threat to put on the ring and command Gollum to junp
in the fire
[18:14] Frodos threat was empty for he wouldn't have done
so
[18:14] Frodo was definitely making a point that he was aware
of the power the Ring would give him
[18:14] That brings an interesting scenerio, Grondy.
[18:15] the ring didn't betray frodo
[18:15] it just took over in the end
[18:15] if that's what u mean
[18:15] nm
[18:16] Sam is very surprised at the look on Frodo's face and
the tone of his voice. He felt that Frodo's kindness was of such a
high degree that is implied a fair measure of blindness.
[18:16] I am basing it on that, Vir.
[18:16] If he wore the ring long enough without becoming
noticed by the enemy, he might have become corrupt enough to tell
Gollum to jump though
[18:16] What does that mean?
[18:16] i'm completely lost
[18:17] me too
[18:17] ok
[18:17] I will back up.
[18:18] Grondy felt that Frodo's threat was an empty one. But
based on what Sam has observed in Frodo's look and tone towards
Smeagol, it may not have been an empty threat at all
[18:18] Frodo my well have been capable of doing what he said.
[18:19] Sam refers to "blindness" and "kindness" as
incapatible.
[18:19] Frodo's threat?
[18:20] Frodo, says that if he was wearing the Ring, he could
command Smeagol to jump into the fire and Smeagol would obey.
[18:20] This kind of threat appears completely out of
character for the Frodo that we and Sam knows
[18:20] so he is controling the ring and not the other way?
[18:20] that is interesting, Nessa.
[18:21] don't think so
[18:21] the ring would control frodo
[18:21] woldn't be possible for frodo - he isn't a Power
[18:21] Or is Frodo aware of what the Ring would have him do.
[18:21] he cant control the ring
[18:21] For Frodo to follow through with the threat means
he would be in its power
[18:22] Why would he not be able to control the Ring if he was
the master of the Ring, Virumor?
[18:22] if he would try to control the ring, the ring owuld
tak eover his mind
[18:22] cause the ring is not "controlable"
[18:22] thats why gandlaf warns him not tu use it all the time
[18:22] in chapter shoadow of the past i mean
[18:23] Even Gandalf couldn't control the Ring
[18:23] ah, that is interesting. Gandalf said that he would do
terrible things for the wrong reasons.
[18:24] * Rawien (lightning@dm-1107.ipt.aol.com) Quit (Connection reset
by peer)
[18:24] I think there is a degree of control on the part of
the master. The Ring controls the negative, the evil part of the
wearer.
[18:25] i think frodo becomes invisible coz the ring wants to
make him visible for the nazgûl
[18:25] that was already ring's influence
[18:25] ring trying to get him into sauron's hands
[18:26] of course it does, the ring want's to get back to
sauron
[18:26] frodo doesn't stand a chance against it in the long
run!
[18:26] probably not.
[18:26] he would be drained just like gollum
[18:27] I think Smeagol underestimated Frodo here, however.
[18:27] yup. it's only a matter of time. frodo might have
lasted as long as gollum, or longer, but he wouldn't resist it forever
anyway
[18:27] I think he felt that Frodo's kindness would make him
"blind" to Smeagol's treachery.
[18:28] frodo was too busy with fighting the ring's spirit
[18:28] and dealing with its increasing mental weight
[18:28] would Fodo eventually end up like Gollum? after all,
hes a hobbit-type creature too
[18:28] probably
[18:29] if he lived 500 years, yes
[18:29] Frodo thought so which was why he was kind to
Smeagol
[18:29] and hoped Smeagol could be redeemed
[18:30] that was a stupid idea
[18:30] he underestimated evil
[18:31] underestimated? or didn't want to believe?
[18:31] yes, Grondy, I agree with you there. But he was not so
blind as to think that Smeagol could have saved them another "delay"
by taking them to the Black Gate knowing that there was another way in.
[18:32] The threat cowed Smeagol
[18:32] Rememeber in the previous chapter that Frodo said that
evil was at work by causing them delays
[18:32] and surprised Sam
[18:32] yes, indeed,it did, Grondy.
[18:33] It took quite awhile for Frodo to get any information
out of Smeagol/Gollum so they could continue on. Another delay.
[18:33] Could this also be the work of the Ring?
[18:33] dunno
[18:33] maybe smeagol is having another inner fight with
gollum concerning goin to shelob
[18:34] No, I think Smeagol has revealed himself.
[18:34] Most of these conversations were done in daylight
when they couldn't move anyway
[18:34] Remember how Smeagol came in possession for the ring.
[18:36] I agree, Grondy. But it would have made it easier for
Frodo to make his decision if he had the imformation that he needed
[18:37] But he couldn't tell Gollum his intentions in
order to get more information as Gollum would have flipped out
[18:37] * Perwing (remiajohn@213.234.5.30550) has left #bilbos-study
[18:38] again : i don't understand a clue
[18:38] or a bit, rather
[18:38] where did I lose you Virumor?
[18:39] hmm the whole smeagol/gollum bit
[18:39] maybe i just lost my ability to understand english
[18:39] Maybe I'm side-tracking the discussion?
[18:39] The whole Smeagol/Gollum thing is confusing.
[18:40] Since the conversation in the previous chapter between
Smeagol and Gollum, including the change in eye colour, I have been
looking at them as 2 separate characters.
[18:41] Smeagol = the better half that is slowly growing
bad again; Gollum is the evil half
[18:41] As Grondy mentioned earlier, Frodo was kind to Smeagol.
[18:41] i just think after that, Smeagol agreed that Gollum
had the upperhand?
[18:41] when smeagol agreed to go to Shelob?
[18:41] so i thini after that, we only have Gollum
[18:41] you have jumped ahead of us, virumor.
[18:42] I don't agree that we only have Gollum when they
decided "she" would do it.
[18:42] but Gollum has more willpower, right?
[18:43] I think that Gollum did come up with the solution, but
I also think that Smeagol was more clever then even Frodo gave him
credit for.
[18:43] The fight between his two halves was still
inconclusive at that time
[18:44] I don't know, Rawien. It would seem so if one believes
that Gollum is taking over the personality.
[18:44] Indeed, it was, Grondy. But is it inconclusive now?
[18:45] Smeagol still has times at the surface
[18:45] Virumor has a good point when he says that Smeagol
agreed Gollum had the upper hand.
[18:45] Gollum isn't completely in control
[18:45] But does he? Smeagol was inherently evil when he
killed to gain possession of the Ring.
[18:45] only in the long run
[18:46] smeagol is just undecisive
[18:46] he wants the ring back but doesn't know how
[18:46] gollum knows how
[18:46] ok, i'm ahead
[18:46] ok, that is a good point.
[18:46] srry
[18:46] "but master was kind to us"
[18:46] no, that came up in the last chapter, Virumor.
[18:46] yeh, but he didn't get master was gonna destroy the
ring
[18:47] Smeagol?
[18:47] i meant that perhaps after Forbidden pool, smeagol was
convinced
[18:47] ok, and I do agree with you there.
[18:47] I think the pool was the turning point
[18:48] but that's a couple chapters ahead
[18:48] yes, but we are getting ahead of ourselves
[18:48] and the good Smeagol fetched the conies
[18:49] Why are Sam and Frodo suspicious of the new route
Smeagol about to take them on?
[18:49] because it is another delay?
[18:49] because it is unknown?
[18:49] How did he know of this route?
[18:50] He escaped that way, if it was an escape.
[18:51] ahh, and why was Frodo suspicious that it may not have
been and escape?
[18:52] an*
[18:52] Aragorn had thought it was suspicious
[18:52] indeed
[18:53] What was Gollum/Smeagol's response to that revelation?
[18:53] Its a lie, "I" did escape
[18:54] the emphasis in "I"
[18:54] ok, I notice that you have placed "I" in quotations,
Grondy, why?
[18:54] because it was usually a matter of truth when
Gollum said "I"
[18:55] and also because I havn't access to bold or italics
[18:55] it could've been he escaped
[18:55] he wasn't, but froddo didn't know
[18:56] so it could've been
[18:56] ok, why then did Frodo believe that there may be truth
in what Smeagol/Gollum said?
[18:57] Frodo felt Gollum thought he had escaped, but the
enemy probably just let him do it
[18:58] Gollum found the way out on his own; he wasn't
shown the way out.
[18:58] yes, he did. The reason Frodo believed Gollum was
because he used the word "I" when referring to his escape.
[18:59] ¨ho wcould he have escaped?
[18:59] I have to admit that I am getting confused at this
point
[18:59] he was in barad-dur
[18:59] impossible to escape from that
[19:00] he was realeased from barad-dur
[19:00] but escaped mordor
[19:00] I agree that Sauron probably let him escape so he
could lead him to the Ring.
[19:00] that's the way we can see it
[19:00] They let him go, he found his own way out
[19:00] they didn't show him "look buddy, there's cirith ungol
byebye"
[19:01] But when, Frodo says that he believes Gollum because
he used the word "I", does that mean that Frodo does not trust Smeagol?
[19:02] With that statement and the warning to Smeagol, I am
starting to wonder.
[19:02] Frodo doesn't trust Seagol, but has no better idea
of how to get in
[19:02] Did anyone else find this confusing?
[19:03] i don't see the problem, actually
[19:03] following Smeagol is just the lesser of two evils
[19:04] they didn't have another choice, i thought
[19:04] no other way in
[19:04] true. How separate are Gollum and Smeagol?
[19:05] He could go in the gate, go home, or go the Cirith
Ungol
[19:05] he knows he has not choice, so why ponder so long?
[19:05] because he's acting stupid?
[19:05] or the ring again
[19:05] tryin to make him not decide
[19:06] probably that
[19:06] there is a possibility that I never considered,
actually.
[19:06] and it delays going into the lions den too
[19:07] true
[19:07] The mood lightens at the end of the chapter. How does
Tolkien do this?
[19:07] Frod is suspicious, "Is it not guarded"
[19:07] of course it's guarded
[19:08] bad questiojn from frodo-man
[19:08] the land grows greener and spring-like, birds and
all
[19:09] warmer too
[19:09] Ithilien
[19:09] yep and Sam wants to see and oliphaunt
[19:09] yeh we get that song too
[19:09] what did you think of Sam
[19:09] i think
[19:09] 's rhyme
[19:10] I loved it
[19:10] I see it as typical Hobbit, childlike nursery rhyme
[19:11] for sure
[19:12] but it was enough to lighten Frodo's mood and give him
resolve to make his decision.
[19:12] "I wish we had a thousand oliphaunts"
[19:12] Smeagol didn't seem very interested in seeing one.
[19:12] Anyway, that is where we will leave off for tonight.
[19:13] Smeagol was more interested in the fishes he hoped
to find

End of #bilbos-study buffer Sat Nov 15 19:14:29 2003
Here is the log from the discussion of November 22nd:

Start of #bilbos-study buffer: Sat Nov 22 19:21:20 2003 [08:07] * Now talking in #bilbos-study
[08:07] * ChanServ (services@darkmyst.org) has joined #bilbos-study
[08:07] * ChanServ sets mode: +o ChanServ
[08:07] * ChanServ changes topic to 'Welcome to the Planet-Tolkien
Classroom. If we do not have a class discussion going on at the moment
join us in #tolkien (Rednell)'
[08:07] * ChanServ sets mode: +ntr
[17:31] Is it time for class?
[17:31] yes it is.
[17:31] just catching my breath.
[17:31] Just about, soon as Nell gets her coat off ands
something to drink
[17:31] ok
[17:35] ok
[17:35] We are ready to start discussing Of Herbs and Stewed
Rabbit.
[17:36] Why has Gollum not eaten?
[17:36] I´ll be idle and observe since I have not an english
copy of LoTR
[17:37] cus theres no fish?
[17:37] true
[17:37] Him not liking Lembas
[17:37] also true
[17:37] so he settles for his dextro energy tablettes
[17:37] nasty dusty elf stuff
[17:37] nice if he has some.
[17:38] yep,it would seem that he would rather go hungry.
[17:38] or else snails and grubs
[17:38] it would kill him anyway
[17:39] They have travelled far enough from Morannon that
there are now trees, flowers, herbs and shrubs
[17:39] How did Gollum react to this new landscape?
[17:39] he sniffed
[17:39] and it was warmer and the air smelled good
[17:40] bit bothered by the aerosols
[17:40] He looked forward to fisheses
[17:40] when gollum sniffed what did he do, Vir?
[17:41] grumbling
[17:41] yep, he did grumble, coughed and retched.
[17:41] quoting Robert Browning
[17:41] i dunno
[17:41] And Sam laughed. Why do you think Sam was laughing?
[17:42] 'hearts ease'
[17:42] that is a good way to put it Rawien.
[17:42] its what it says in the book
[17:42] lol
[17:42] sam laughs for no particular reason
[17:42] he was happy to be away from the "bad" lands
[17:42] yes, I think the smells of the flowers and herbs made
him "heady"
[17:43] it's just the change after the wastelands the dagorlad
was
[17:43] which influenced his psyche, i think
[17:43] They were away from the worse of the bad lands, but
what evidence was there to remind them that they were still in Saurons
domain?
[17:43] that is a good point, Virumor
[17:43] but Sam was a gardener and was happy to be back
amonst the green
[17:44] another very good point, Grondy
[17:44] stuff orcs left behind
[17:44] garbage, broken trees
[17:44] yes
[17:44] filth and refuse lay about left by the orcs
[17:44] CDs of Evanescence
[17:44] bad runes, etc
[17:45] charred and broken bones
[17:45] Frodo seems very quiet now and he soon goes to sleep.
What does Sam notice about Frodo?
[17:46] light
[17:46] shining
[17:46] * Laichzeit is now known as Evil_Mahal
[17:46] his face is skinny
[17:46] weary
[17:46] and sam notices he's in love with frodo
[17:46] heh, well that he loves them
[17:46] him
[17:46] old and beautiful
[17:47] what did he see that was beautiful?
[17:47] I guess Virumor answered that.
[17:48] Up to this point we notice Frodo becoming weary from
the weight of the Ring.
[17:49] we do?
[17:49] Any opinions on where this light might be coming from?
[17:49] morgul blade wound
[17:49] frodo almost caught in spirit world
[17:50] so you think this light is still more of the evil of
Sauron?
[17:51] no, i think it's the link with the spirit world
[17:51] It might be Frodo's inner strength showing through
[17:51] or maybe frodo swallowed a light bulb
[17:51] where would he get this light bulb?
[17:52] from Galadriel in the form of her gift?
[17:52] but he didn't swallow it
[17:53] If we go with the link with the spirit world and that
link is left by the mogul blade, then it suggest evil glowing within
him and I don't think that would be beautiful
[17:53] I agree
[17:53] what else is it, then?
[17:54] but the starglass could be reflecting off Frodo
[17:54] If the proximity of the Ring can bring such weariness
upon Frodo, then perhaps it is possible that the proximity of the gift
from Galadriel does as well, as Grondy has suggested
[17:54] frodo became transparantlike first time after he's
stabbed by morgul blade
[17:54] gandalf noticed this the first
[17:54] this is true, Virumor. But I get the impression that
Sam sees a beautiful light emitting from Frodo's face.
[17:55] Elrond cured him of the Morgul Blade wound, he
can't be drawn to the sprit world by it anymore
[17:55] Perhaps this light helps protect Frodo from being
consumed by the evil of the Ring
[17:55] right
[17:56] gandalf saw that after he was cured
[17:56] well let's agree it is the light
[17:57] i can't see anything else making him glow
[17:57] (except sleeping on a nest of dragonflies)
[17:57] What did Sam order Gollum to do while Frodo was
resting?
[17:58] Find some hobbit food while he was out foraging
for himself
[17:58] get bunnies
[17:58] herbs/water
[17:58] but gollum doesn't want to provide herbs after he saw
samwise burning his precioussss food
[17:58] in fact he begs
[17:58] why was Gollum upset when Sam started fire?
[17:59] smoke will draw visitors
[17:59] yep.
[17:59] So you think that Sam was unreasonable and mean with
Gollum?
[18:00] nah, looked more he was playing a bit
[18:00] I got that impression too, Virumor.
[18:00] not at this time; they were getting on pretty good
[18:00] However, Sam remained very guarded all the same
[18:01] sure that was Sam's job
[18:01] one he took very seriously, I might add.
[18:02] That does Sam notice after they have finished their
meal?
[18:02] bird calls
[18:02] i think he sees smoke first
[18:02] okay
[18:02] then he hears the lame attempt to sound like a bird
[18:03] yes, he notices that his fire indeed did create smoke
and then he heard the suspicious bird calls
[18:03] Who did the smoke attract?
[18:03] and Frodo heard voices
[18:04] rangers from ithilien
[18:04] Four tall men
[18:04] * virumor is now known as virumor|blah
[18:04] What are the rangers doing there?
[18:04] looking for the smoke-guys
[18:05] I think they were looking for an enemy
[18:05] not unlogical, considering they're about to
ambush some haradrim
[18:05] preparing an ambush for a party of Haradrim
[18:05] yep.
[18:05] so a smoke could come in a bit unhandy
[18:05] indeed
[18:06] When the Rangers attacked the Haradrim, what did Sam
find disturbing?
[18:06] sam was wondering what happened to gollum
[18:07] That they killed the oliphaunts?
[18:07] The noise
[18:07] sam didn't like that the Ithilien men killed
other men, and wondered if they were really 'evil' and not just misled.
[18:07] well he found the dead harad guy who fell next to
them a bit disturbing
[18:07] wondered why he came from, blablabla
[18:08] yes, that was the first time Sam even considered that
men would kill men.
[18:08] ahh ok
[18:08] And then of course, the most amazing and at the same
time terrifying site.
[18:08] "he wondered what the man's name was and
where he came from; and if he was really evil of heart, or what lies
or threats had led him on the long march from his home; and if he
would not have ratherstayed there in peace."
[18:09] Mamak
[18:09] Mûmak
[18:09] thank you Gandalf.
[18:09] np
[18:10] yes, Sam always dreamed of seeing an oliphaunt some
day and there they are in the middle of the battle.
[18:11] who is the victor in this battle?
[18:11] the Rangers
[18:11] are we at the next chapter now?
[18:11] yes, we are not entering into The Window on the West.
[18:12] Soon as Sam finishes his nap
[18:12] now*
[18:12] When Sam did awake, it looked as if Frodo was on
trial. What was going on?
[18:13] being questioned by faramir
[18:13] about his role in the fellowship, his
relationship towards boromir, etc
[18:13] What was you initial impression of Faramir?
[18:14] * Gandalf_Greyhame is now known as Supposedly_Human
[18:14] your*
[18:14] dunno, some guy
[18:15] nothing special before he says he's boromir's bro
[18:15] unthreatening
[18:15] He certainly didn't come across in the beginning as
unthreatening.
[18:15] dunno, he didn't exactly threat them
[18:15] he had other stuff on his mind, the upcoming
battle and such things
[18:15] he seemed just, reasonable
[18:16] he also had a duty to his men and city
[18:16] His face was stern and commanding, he had doubt in his
eyes as he gazed at Frodo. I was with Sam, I don't think Faramir
treated Frodo with great respect
[18:17] no need to offer Frodo restpect Frodo could have
been a spy
[18:17] dunno, he just questioned him and wanted answers
fast
[18:17] they had just won a battle and the Enemy was yet
to come
[18:17] true enough, the man was a soldier and commander.
[18:17] i mean they had to get away fast
[18:18] but he wasn't mean, and he didn't yell
[18:18] this is true, Grondy. He was firm.
[18:19] but he did try thicks in his interogation
[18:19] tricks*
[18:19] well, he wanted to see if frodo really wasn't an
enemy of boromir
[18:19] yes, how did he try to find out more about Isildur's
Bane?
[18:21] Since Isildur was killed by the arrows from Orcs, that
could have been viewed as Isildur's Bane. But since Boromir would not
view and Orc's arrow as a sign of doom, than that could not be it.
[18:22] He used questions about the words in the chant
that Borimer brought to Rivendaell
[18:22] well he quickly knew frodo had isildur's bane in
his possession but didn't want to continue
[18:23] yes, he did. Initially, why did he think Boromir
should have been carrier of Isildur's Bane?
[18:23] sorry, Faramir
[18:24] Why did Faramir think Boromir should have this thing?
<----- that is what I meant
[18:24] because Boomir was prince of the city that Elendil
founded
[18:24] yes, Grondy
[18:24] well faramir didn't really think that
[18:24] he just asked why isildur's bane wasn't in
boromir's hands
[18:25] so frodo said that elrond decided him to be the
ringbearer
[18:25] good point, Virumor.
[18:25] How did he react when Frodo revealed that the heir of
Isildur has come back?
[18:26] he needed proof
[18:26] he wasn't as impressed as some of his men
[18:26] yeah
[18:27] Faramir is very perceptive about his brother's role in
Frodo's fate.
[18:28] yes, he is
[18:28] what are some of the contrasts between Faramir and
Boromir?
[18:28] boromir wants power and glory for him and his
city thru battle
[18:28] faramir hates violence and war, wants just peace
[18:28] well, faramir is just like his father, a real
Numenoran
[18:28] what else did Boromir want?
[18:29] boromir is more like the last king, Eärnur
[18:29] Boromir was ambicious Faramir was curious
[18:29] true
[18:29] faramir is like aragorn, but lesser
[18:30] and very younger, too
[18:30] How did Boromir feel about the stewarts?
[18:30] faramis was wise
[18:30] he asked themselves why they weren't kings
[18:30] faramir would like the king to return, but not
his father to be king
[18:31] Faramir was a romantic, Boromir was realist
[18:32] Faramir seemed more in touch with the past.
[18:32] he knows his history, yes
[18:33] Boromir looked to the future of Gondor and saw the
Ring as the key to regaining the glory of Gondor.
[18:33] and for his own glory, mainly
[18:34] it's not that, i think
[18:34] I am not convinced of that.
[18:34] Faramir doesn't want to use the tool of evil,
even if that would mean victory
[18:34] even if it was last resort
[18:34] I really think Boromir's intentions were honourable
and he wanted what was best for Gondor.
[18:35] the Ring immediately shrank his will and turned
it into greed
[18:35] and faramir was right : he and aragorn would've
become rivals
[18:35] would Aragorn ever use the Ring, even if it was
last resort ? no
[18:36] why not? same reason as why Faramir wouldnt
[18:36] yes, Boromir would definitely challenge Aragorn's
right to the throne.
[18:36] because he's wise and sees that evil won't be
defeated that way
[18:36] and now Frodo will learn that Boromir is dead
[18:37] Well, when you think about it, the heirs of Isildur's
have not come back to fight with their people
[18:37] ?
[18:37] their ppl is in Arnor, and they're fighting their
own evil there
[18:38] and Aragorn could have gone to MT, if boromir
hadn't died
[18:38] their people are also in Gondor
[18:38] yes
[18:38] they're realted
[18:38] not their ppl
[18:38] gondorians are lesser than the ppl of Aragorn
[18:39] rangers are still all real numenorans
[18:39] I have to agree with virumor at this point
[18:39] they haven't been marrying with 'regular' ppl
[18:39] yes, the rangers are numenorians,dunedain.
[18:40] i mean the rangers' blood isn't lessened like the
gondorians has thru the years
[18:40] I mean people as those who would be ruled by them
[18:40] the line of Anarion doesn't exist anymore
[18:40] Ithink the point I was making was that I can
understand why Boromir would challenge Aragorn
[18:40] 's right to the throne to Gondor
[18:41] that's because he's too arrogant and proud
[18:41] but Denethor wouldn't have accepted it either, so
[18:41] they were rivals too, when Aragorn served
Ecthelion II
[18:42] but we're going off topic
[18:42] srry
[18:42] but this isn't in this chapter, even if it is true\
[18:42] What causesSma to have a slip of the tongue?
[18:42] Sam*
[18:43] Now you take Boromir?
[18:43] too much food and wine, compared to his inferior
intellectual skills, i guess
[18:44] what's with Boromir now??
[18:45] What point was Sam making about Boromir?
[18:45] They were discussing Galadriel.
[18:45] dunno, he was talkin bout lothlorien so boromir
was confronted there with his own feelings towards the ring
[18:46] That he brought something perilous with him to
Lothlorien
[18:46] and the Lady saw it
[18:46] he was confronted more with his desire to get the
ring
[18:46] in Lothlorien
[18:47] yep, and I think Faramir guessed this earlier. He
wondered what the Lady revealed in Boromir's mind
[18:48] "Boromir, O Boromir!...What did she say to you, the
Lady that does not? What did she see? What woke in your heart then?"
[18:49] when did he say that?
[18:50] earlier in this chapter when Frodo tells him that
they passed through Lothlorien. Faramir says that men who go there are
never the same again
[18:50] ok
[18:51] How was it actually fortunate that Sam did reveal the
secret?
[18:51] so Faramir could show what a perfect lad he
really was
[18:52] not really
[18:53] that Faramir could hekp Frodo if it was within his
power
[18:53] yesGrondy.
[18:53] yes, but that was only because he showed he was
the perfect lad
[18:54] and not to name the thing again
[18:54] if he acted like boromir, there would be no much
help
[18:54] Faramir does not wish to touch the Ring at all.
[18:54] hansome is as hansome does
[18:55] When Boromir dies we see him redeemed by confessing to
Aragorn that he tried to take the Ring from Frodo.
[18:56] 'Yes sir, and showed your quality: the very
highest.'
[18:56] Frodo was not there and so would not see this. I think
this friendship with Faramir and his willingness to help redeems
Boromir in Frodo's eyes/
[18:56] well but a dead boromir can't help much of course
[18:57] I think Frodo understands what happened much more
clearly now after his conversation with Faramir.
[18:57] and earlier Faramir said Boromirs face was peaceful
[18:58] That is right Grondy.
[18:58] i don't think frodo is much wiser bout the whole
thing, he only knows boromir got seduced by the ring, that's it
[18:59] I disagree
[18:59] only at the field of cormallen, in the near
future everything will get clear
[18:59] frodo even isn't sure if the others are alive
[19:00] he knows nothin at that point, only that he has
to get to mt doom
[19:00] I think Frodo understands Boromir through the
information Faramir has revealed about Dunedain, Gondor and Boromir
[19:00] * Seemann is now known as Morgoth_please_take_me_with_yo
[19:00] well he understand why boromir attacked him, and
that faramir isn't like boromir
[19:00] yes.
[19:01] * Rawien is now known as takemethree
[19:01] * takemethree is now known as Rawien
[19:02] What kind of air did Faramir note that Frodo had about
him?
[19:02] Elvish
[19:03] yes, any opinions on how Frodo would come to give such
an impression?
[19:03] * Rawien (lightning@dm-34163.manc.broadband.ntl.com) has left
#bilbos-study
[19:03] he's a ringbearer
[19:03] he surprised galadriel too with his increased
'vision'
[19:04] yes, he did.
[19:04] His apparel and his knowledge if history?
[19:05] well it's the same deal as with Bilbo
[19:05] I think he has more of an air than Bilbo.
[19:06] well, Frodo did more than just go there and back
again, so that's right
[19:07] Possibly Elrond imparted some of his spirit to
Frodo during the healing
[19:07] I do think it has to do with his task as Ringbearer.
It has been the fate set by Eru that Frodo be that Ringbearer. Since
the Elves are the first born of Eru and the most revered in His eyes,
then Frodo could have been given this "air" by Eru to fullfill his
task.
[19:07] well it was also predestined that Frodo would
succeed, so
[19:07] That is a good point too, Grondy. The healing process
probably did entail that
[19:08] I think it is interesting that Faramir had noted this.
[19:09] the Elvish thing is just that Frodo isn't a
regular hobbit, but faramir noticed this even with just two hobbits
before him, because he sees deep
[19:09] Anyway, Next week we will discuss The Forbidden Pool
and Journey to the Crossroads.
[19:09] especially as Faramir wasn't familiar with elves
[19:09] true on both counts.
[19:09] for Men Elves are strange, so
[19:10] so i think when he says 'elvish', he means
'strange'
[19:10] hmmmm, that is interesting.
[19:10] Okay, thanks for the class Nell and Virumor
[19:12] but I think Faramir meant it as a compliment.
[19:12] dunno, 'strange' wasn't meant peiorative
[19:12] i think he just expressed what he saw in frodo
[19:13] strange as in diferent rather that reird
[19:13] weird*
[19:14] yes
[19:14] and Sam saw in Faramir some of Gandalf
[19:14] maybe it's the Phial again, compared to his
'transparentness'
[19:14] or the influence of the Ring
[19:15] that is a good possiblity
[19:15] the phial, I mean
[19:15] it's strange that Sam didn't say Faramir was like
Aragorn
[19:15] coz he kinda was
[19:16] I think Sam saw Gandalf's wisdom and fairness in
Faramir. I don't think Sam had enough time to see these traits in
Aragorn
[19:16] Aragorn was never in a position to have to show
his quality
[19:16] he was, but Sam wasn't there then
[19:17] while Sam was travelling with him
[19:17] this is true.
[19:17] maybe during the trip to Rivendel
[19:17] he told them the Lay of Leithian
[19:17] Sam was still suspicious of Strider then
[19:17] Don't think so. Aragorn seemed to have a great deal on
his mind
[19:17] that is very true, Grondy
some stories, so they could see he wasn't a regular ranger
[19:18] what rangers would they have to compare him to?
[19:19] But they had never met a ranger before to compare
to
[19:19] Heh, was just gonna ask that
[19:19] well with ranger i meant "some dude wandering
about"
[19:19] my english is too bad
[19:19] all the 'big people' are strange to the hhobbits
[19:19] that's ok
[19:19] ok, they could see he had something in him
[19:20] Well, I have to go watch the Apple Cup now.
[19:20] well, Sam knew who Aragorn was.
[19:20] yes, but they didn't know his qualities when they
read the letter in Bree

End of #bilbos-study buffer Sat Nov 22 19:21:21 2003
Here is the discussion log from November 29th:

Start of #bilbos-study buffer: Sat Nov 29 18:48:21 2003 [21:12] * Now talking in #bilbos-study
[21:12] * ChanServ (services@darkmyst.org) has joined #bilbos-study
[21:12] * ChanServ sets mode: +o ChanServ
[21:12] * ChanServ changes topic to 'Welcome to the Planet-Tolkien
Classroom. If we do not have a class discussion going on at the moment
join us in #tolkien (Rednell)'
[21:12] * ChanServ sets mode: +ntr
[12:31] * ChanServ sets mode: +o ChanServ
[17:50] well, since we are all here, we might as well begin.
[17:50] We are discussing The Forbidden Pool
[17:51] Why does Faramir wake Frodo?
[17:51] he has to show him something
[17:51] because they found gollum
[17:51] yes
[17:51] Faramir wonders why this creature would follow them to
their hideout. What does Frodo speculate?
[17:52] And the view is fine, no doubt
[17:52] that he is after fish
[17:52] yes, it would seem more of a coincidence
[17:52] What is teh penalty for coming unbidden to Henneth
Annun, where the hideout is located?
[17:53] death
[17:53] Does Gollum have any idea that Frodo and the
"precious" are nearby?
[17:53] no, he hasn't
[17:54] maybe subconsciosly about the ring
[17:54] "For precious is lost; yes lost. Dirty hobbits, nasty
hobbits. Gone and left us, gollum; and they've taken it, steal my
Precious"
[17:54] but not knowingly
[17:55] it does seem one of those events controlled by fate
[17:56] Why would Smeagol not come to Frodo right away?
[17:56] he wonders where Samwise is
[17:56] because they left him all alone
[17:56] He has just caught his fisshes and wants to eat
them
[17:57] he has lost his trust in bad master
[17:57] yup
[17:57] that is right. He wants to finish with his fish. He
does wonder about Sam
[17:58] We seem to get back into the Gollum/Smeagol thing
again.
[17:58] oh no
[17:58] hehe
[17:58] very little Smeagol left now
[17:58] "Nice Master", he whipsered. "Nice hobbit, come back
to poor Smeagol. Good. Smeagol comes"
[17:59] then following that:
[17:59] "We must trust Master?" said Gollum doubtfully. "Why?"
[18:00] Any comments on that, do you see Gollum and Smeagol as
separate?
[18:00] Yup
[18:00] Gollum got suspicious when Frodo refused to leave
directly
[18:01] yes.
[18:01] and pondered if he should trust him
[18:01] What were Frodo's fears?
[18:01] that Gollum would see it as betrayal
[18:02] Than Anborn would act rashly and hurt Gollum
[18:02] both good points
[18:02] which would lead to as virumor said
[18:03] that even though Frodo was doing Gollum a favor
that the poor creature would see it as treachery
[18:03] and probably would be impossible to make him
understand or believe that Frodo had saved his life
[18:03] oh virumor already said that
[18:03] What colour were Gollum/Smeagol's eyes when he was
captured?
[18:04] green
[18:04] a green shimmer when he saw Anborn
[18:04] yes
[18:04] flickering in my book
[18:05] and he was clearly upset,"icked" "trickery" "false"
[18:05] you see those eyes in your book? spooky
[18:05] yes
[18:05] wicked*
[18:05] I apologize, my keys are sticking on my keyboard.
[18:05] no problem
[18:05] What was Faramir's perception of Gollum?
[18:06] he saw evil in Gollum, which grew as a cancer
[18:06] you need some cocoa for lubricant
[18:06] and that he committed a murder before
[18:06] he saw Gollum as untrustworthy
[18:07] although one interesting thing is Faramir say him as
"not wholly wicked"
[18:07] but he did see him as leading Frodo to no good.
[18:08] Frodo bound unwittingly to his own harm"
[18:08] nice way to put it.
[18:09] Where did Faramir discover Gollum was leading Frodo to?
[18:10] Cirith Ungol
[18:10] Morgul vale
[18:10] How did he feel about that?
[18:10] and he warns Frodo from going there
[18:10] he wondered how Gollum knew all the entrances to Mordor
[18:10] he felt that Gollum was tricking Frodo into a
dangerous passage
[18:10] yes, but what choice does Frodo have?
[18:11] it is filled with unnamed malic and evil
[18:11] Frodo has to try to reach Mt Doom one way or another
[18:11] non it is the only known way
[18:12] bar knovking at the gate
[18:12] I think Faramir comes to realize that there is no
other way for Frodo to carry out his task.
[18:12] What gifts did Faramir give the Hobbits?
[18:12] two walking sticks
[18:12] food and walking sticks
[18:12] made out of wood from the lebethron-tree
[18:13] yes food and walking sticks....metalshoed walking
sticks
[18:13] which I think they lost quite quickly?
[18:14] How did Faramir treat Frodo and Sam as they prepared
to part company?
[18:14] did they?
[18:14] not that bad
[18:14] with dignity
[18:14] he treated them with dignity and respect
[18:14] he greeted them in the Gondoran way
[18:14] very much so.
[18:14] gave them probational freedom in Gondor
[18:14] That was the Gondorian way?
[18:15] embrace + kiss on forehead
[18:15] good
[18:15] "Go with the good will of all good men"
[18:15] yes, virumor is right
[18:15] I like that quote
[18:16] do you think there is any significance to that quote?
[18:17] no
[18:17] that he should go with good spirit? or that good
men are good willing to him?
[18:17] I don´t know
[18:17] Well it is a form of blessing
[18:17] I think it is interesting that he did not say "good
will of all men"
[18:17] like "Gods speed" ?
[18:18] I agree that it is a form of blessing.
[18:18] and he didn't want Frodo to go where bad men willed
[18:19] We are ready to go into "Journey to the Crossroads"
[18:19] ok
[18:19] When does Gollum feel the best time for the hobbits to
travel?
[18:19] at night
[18:19] except Faramir looked forward to heariing the tale
of how Gollum came by the ring.
[18:19] why?
[18:19] well only when they leaf Ithilien
[18:20] i don't know, Gollum isn't fond of the sun
[18:20] "Shadowless world, fading slowly into a featureless,
colourless gloom"
[18:20] What kind of image does that conjur in your mind?
[18:21] the world of the Ringwraiths
[18:21] definite absence of light
[18:21] Gollum´s home?
[18:22] What did Frodo see on the road to Osgiliath as the sun
was setting?
[18:23] flowers on the head of the King
[18:23] but the head of the king was on the ground
[18:23] yes, Aragorn got decapitated
[18:24] what else was on the head of the king?
[18:24] anyway, that was already where the roads intersected
[18:24] not on the road to osgiliath
[18:25] another bit of hope before the dark journey ahead
[18:26] Yellow stonecrop (grass?)
[18:26] lichen?
[18:26] what was on the body of the king, when the head was
suppose to be?
[18:26] just plants on the head
[18:26] a large rock
[18:26] with the sign of the ReD Eye
[18:26] yes
[18:26] and a large painted smile/grin
[18:27] abstract Orc art
[18:27] hehe exactly
[18:27] the pained smile was on the orc's alternative head
that they put on the statute
[18:28] yes, on the large rock
[18:28] There was something that Sam and Frodo saw on the
forehead of the King's head reflected in the setting sun.
[18:28] that was a gerdle of flowers
[18:28] some plants, i'm no botanist
[18:29] there was that, Vir but they saw a crown of silver and
gold.
[18:29] Perhaps it was a trick of the sun reflecting on the
white flowers and yellow lichen
[18:29] the flowers and yellow hair were on the true
king's head and the sunlight temporarily lit it up
[18:30] "They cannot concuer for ever!
[18:30] How do you think this apparition will affect Frodo and
his task?
[18:30] frodo said 'the king has a crown yet'
[18:30] but they saw flowers as a crown then?
[18:31] I think it was so virumor
[18:31] yes as a precursor of things to come
[18:31] i don't think it has much influence
[18:31] they forgot it immediately once they entered the
Mordor madness
[18:32] no it was like a reflection
[18:32] Do you not think that this would have given some
renewed hope?
[18:32] no
[18:32] just a bit of hope before the storm that things
may turn out all right
[18:33] Frodo never had any hope
[18:33] yeah...but that hope was lost in the entrance of
Mordor as virumor pointed out
[18:33] maybe it was just a last thing of beauty to see before
entering the madness
[18:33] I think Frodo had hope for others but not for
himself
[18:34] I think Tolkien has kept with his style of creating
some ray of hope in a time of hopelessness
[18:34] he had some or he just would have given up, and
besides, Sam kept trying to give him some
[18:34] That is how I saw this scene
[18:35] yeah...your propably right Nell
[18:35] Do you think if they had not had the time with Faramir
to rest that they would have made it this far?
[18:36] even in Mordor as we will later see there were
these little events that provided hope
[18:37] I agree Grondmaster
[18:37] I think they are very important elements in the book.
[18:37] Frodo never felt like he had any hope
[18:37] that's what i was referring too
[18:38] Perhaps, Virumor, but I do think he felt there was
hope that Sauron would be defeated.
[18:38] no, but they give Sam and the reader this hope
[18:38] Frodo never had hope for the journey to succeed
[18:38] and if it would succeed, he'd expect it to end there
for him
[18:38] Frodo is just tryin, that's all
[18:38] I agree, he did not see his own survival
[18:39] That may have been because of the ring Virumor
[18:39] trying to break his will
[18:39] as I said before: he had hope for others but not
for himself
[18:39] good point Grondmaster.
[18:40] I am sure the Ring was not looking forward to a dip
in the fires of Mt Doom
[18:40] it doesn't matter how, the fact is that Frodo didn't
have any hope
[18:41] it wanted Frodo to give up; Sam was there to jolly
Frodo into keeping going
[18:41] i think the Ring was trying to make Frodo wear the
Ring and challenge Sauron
[18:41] to get back to Sauron
[18:42] yes, I think that has happened a couple of times in
the journey.
[18:42] It hasn't happened recently, however.
[18:42] but usually only when there were Nazgul about
[18:43] good point
[18:43] that were the Nazgul making him wear it
[18:44] or when he felt threatened by Boromir. Again, the Ring
was influencing Boromir's actions, perhaps, as a ploy to make Frodo
put on the Ring
[18:45] that's a bit far-fetched
[18:45] the Ring wanted to get to Boromir because Boromir's
spirit was easier to influence
[18:45] but i don't want to discuss this, since we are
off-topic
[18:45] I will concede to that.
[18:46] anyway, we have finished up for tonight. There are
only 3 chapters left in Two Towers so perhaps we can finish next week.
[18:46] ok
[18:47] I will be away on vacation the following week.
[18:47] Sam says, "but where ther's life there's hope and
need of vittlrs"
[18:47] yes, I love those old sayings from the Gaffer
End of #bilbos-study buffer Sat Nov 29 18:48:22 2003
So our illustrious heroes have found their way to the cross-roads between Osgiliath and Minas Morgal (nee Minas Ithil) having three days earlier, left Faramir behind at Henneth Annun. We are now ready for the final three chapters of The Two Towers.

These we will take up next Saturday, 31 January 2004, in our #Bilbo-study chatroom at approximately 2130 GMT (9:30 PM in London, 4:30 PM in New York, 1:30 PM in Seattle) or as soon as Rednell gets her coat off, Pippin and Sindal(?) fed, and a cup of tea in her hand, all after she gets home from another hard day's work in the library).
Here is the log from Jan 31st discussion of the last 3 chapters of TTT.

Start of #bilbos-study buffer: Sat Jan 31 19:11:24 2004 [07:58] * Now talking in #bilbos-study
[07:58] * ChanServ (services@darkmyst.org) has joined #bilbos-study
[07:58] * ChanServ sets mode: +o ChanServ
[07:58] * ChanServ changes topic to 'Welcome to the Planet-Tolkien
Classroom. If we do not have a class discussion going on at the moment
join us in #tolkien (Rednell)'
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[17:35] Good afternoon
[17:47] did you notice anything when you re-read the book that you may have missed the first time or 2?
[17:49] the description of the dirrerent stair types
[17:49] I don't think so
[17:51] I also had thought the trio was closer to the
bridge when the Gates opened
[17:52] That may have been because of the BBC version
[17:53] yes, I noticed some things from the film, just in the
wrong place
[18:06] welcome Smile Smilie
[18:06] Thanks
[18:07] welcome LadyFeawen
[18:07] Hi Cal and Lady F
[18:07] welcome Calenthang
[18:07] welcome l3vi4th4n
[18:07] Thank you Grondmaster and Rednell
[18:07] hi
[18:07] Hi 13
[18:07] And ho to you l3v
[18:07] hi
[18:07] i watch as i not read the chapters
[18:09] not a problem
[18:10] ok, we will start now.
[18:10] We are in The Stairs of Cirith Ungol
[18:11] How is Frodo feeling as this chapter opens?
[18:12] Frodo is feeling bogged down
[18:12] the ring is getting heavier
[18:12] indeed
[18:13] but then: Then suddenly, as if some force were at work other than his own will, he began to hurry, tottering forward, his groping hands held out, his head lolling from side to side
[18:13] What did you think the force might be?
[18:15] the call of the ring to the Nazgul?
[18:15] I think so too Grondy
[18:15] Just after Sam and Gollum convince him not to go that
way, he feels the Ring resist him.
[18:16] They see the army coming out of the Gate. What feeling
came over Frodo?
[18:17] His old wound started hurting
[18:18] yes and as the Wraith-Lord came out of the Gate, what
feeling comes over him?
[18:19] and he again felt commanded to "Put on the Ring!"
[18:20] Frodo felt more urgent than ever before, the command
that he should put on the Ring. But great as the pressure was, he felt
no inclination now to yield to it.
[18:20] Now this is where I again feel there is a great
conflict going on within Frodo.
[18:20] He thought of Galadriel and touched the star glass
instead
[18:21] I don't think it was concious, however.
[18:22] I think that there is the struggle of Good (Strength of
Eru) and Evil (Strength of the Ring) within Frodo
[18:23] his own will tried to counter the outside will that
was making his hand go for the ring
[18:23] indeed
[18:23] but was Frodo's will on its own enough.
[18:24] As you have already mentioned, where did his hand go
when he struggled to keep his hand away from the Ring but to the Phial of Galadriel.
[18:25] no, but it helped move hid hand towards the phial
[18:25] - It took his hand and moved it inch by inch towards
the chain around his neck, then his own will stirred, slowly it forces
the hand back and set it find another thing - a thing lying hidden near
his breast
[18:25] and his will may have been augmented by Eru
[18:27] and it could just be that Frodo's strong will was the
reason he was chosen to be the Ringbearer.
[18:28] as it was not Eru's will that the enemy recovered
the ring
[18:28] indeed.
[18:29] That is where the Phial of Galadriel plays a part later
on
[18:29] Where was the army from Morgul going?
[18:29] when he touched the phial the enemy's wiil left him
[18:30] To Minas Tirith?
[18:30] via Osgiliath
[18:30] yes
[18:31] the assault was starting
[18:31] The mood lightens a little bit when Sam compares their
journey to the tales of Bilbo.
[18:32] It is probably the most optimistic part of this section
of the book.
[18:32] What tales would Sam be telling when they return?
[18:33] Now I know I won't read it
[18:33] why not Cale?
[18:34] Well considering my reading speed I'll probably get
depressed before I reach the end or at least the battle
[18:34] well, that is the great thing about Tolkien's writing.
The mood never stays dark continuously.
[18:35] "Let's hear about Frodo and the Ring!" Dad.
[18:35] He breaks it up.
[18:35] yes, Grondy. To which Frodo responds: Tells Sam that he
is forgetting a chief character :Samwise the stout hearted.
[18:36] Aww,it was "The brave" in the movie
[18:37] And immediately Sam takes offense thinking Frodo is
making fun of him. But Frodo assures him that he is serious because
:"Frodo wouldn't have go far without Sam"
[18:37] "That's what I like, it makes me laugh."
[18:38] And who goes missing but our dear Gollum
[18:38] And Sam says evev Gollum might be good in the tale
[18:38] yes and what part would Gollum play?
[18:39] He could be their faithfil guide or...
[18:40] the hero or the villian?
[18:40] that is one of the interesting thoughts to keep until
the end of the book, actually.
[18:41] he could go off plotting and return sneaking
[18:41] indeed, he could and most likely does.
[18:42] But Gollum is a clever character. He takes the
attention off of his sneaking about by chastising Sam
[18:42] and how does poor old Sam take to that?
[18:43] a bit remorseful, but not more trustful
[18:43] yes, I agree with you there
[18:43] We are ready to move onto Shelob's Lair now
[18:44] and the green glint in Gollum's eyes says that was
justified
[18:44] What was making it difficult for the Hobbits to enter
the tunnel?
[18:44] Peeeuuu!
[18:45] indeed, the change in Gollum's eye colour would tells
lots if they understood it or noticed it.
[18:45] yep, stinky!
[18:45] And of course, Gollum is nowhere to be found, but Sam
senses a much greater evil than Gollum.
[18:46] What part of their journey did the tunnel remind Sam of?
[18:46] the aromatic zephers emulating from the tunnel were
not condusive to their enjoying their luncheon
[18:47] Moria
[18:47] do you recall who Sam wished was with them?
[18:48] it reminds Sam of the Barrow Downs and he wishes that
Tom was with them
[18:48] Gandalf?
[18:48] ah, yes, that was where and who
[18:49] indeed. and Sam has a vision
[18:49] He sees Galadriel and then he remembers the phial
[18:50] A light to you in dark places
[18:50] A light when all other lights go out
[18:51] yep, and when he shone forth the light and held up
Sting, the creature retreated.
[18:52] eeek! a horrible monster!
[18:52] with two great bubches of eyes
[18:52] bunches*
[18:53] Even the Elvish words from Frodo didn't frighten her
[18:54] she had heard thode words before and was undaunted
then as she was now
[18:54] exactly
[18:54] Frodo and Sam started to run, however, Frodo seemed to
get renewed bravery
[18:55] Stand@, Stand! Running is no use!
[18:55] but they are trapped
[18:56] What did Gollum promise Shelob?
[18:57] juicy hobbit meat
[18:57] yummm
[18:57] Uhmm
[18:57] a real treat from Orc
[18:58] Gollum could satisfy Shelob's lust and Shelob would
satisfy Gollum's lust.
[18:59] However, Gollum underestimated Sam.
[18:59] she'd eat her fill, actually drink and he would
pick through the husks of her leavings
[18:59] But when Sam saw what Shelob had done to Frodo what
was his decision?
[19:00] revenge against both her and Gollum
[19:01] in the short term
[19:01] but he decided that as much as he would like to, "that
was not the something to do before the end"
[19:02] after he chased Gollum away he fought of her and
returned to Frodo's body
[19:02] and?
[19:02] what was the "something" that he had to do?
[19:03] argued with himself about why he was left alone and
decided he would have to continue with Frodo
[19:03] 's quest
[19:03] indeed
[19:04] the council had appointed companions to see the
quest was done
[19:04] yes. and now Sam was left.
[19:05] Sam took the ring, the phial, and sting and headed
up the path to the tower
[19:05] Once he found out that Frodo was not dead, he changed
his mind. Do you thing his loyalties lay with Frodo or that he felt
Frodo was the one to finish the task?
[19:07] he didn't really want the job and if Frodo was
still alive it was Frod's to finish
[19:07] but he risked the quest by going after Frodo.
[19:08] but he couldn't leave Frodo to be tortured by the
Orcs
[19:08] indeed, just as Aragorn couldn't leave Merry and Pippin
to be tortured by the orcs.
[19:09] It would seem that friendship and loyalty do take
presidence over the quest to destroy the Ring.
[19:09] and if they tortured Frodo, Sauron would find the
ring was in Mordor and all hell would be to pay.
[19:09] ah, now that I never considered
[19:09] Sam didn't either
[19:10] no, I didn't think so.
[19:10] We get to start ROTK next week.
End of #bilbos-study buffer Sat Jan 31 19:11:24 2004