[21:14] Elven-Man marriages were not common. Which couples had mixed elven/men marriages?
[21:14] aragorn and arwen, beren and luithien.
[21:15] one more
[21:15] earendil and elwing.
[21:15] Beren /Luthien, Aragorn, Arwen Dior Elwing, Imrazor/Mithrellas
[21:15] dior was elven/mair
[21:16] earendil was half elven
[21:16] so was arwen
[21:16] and the answer is Tuor/Idril
[21:17] earendil was the son of whom
[21:17] No that was Elwing
[21:19] Given the life span of the elf and the life span of the man, there must have been an awful sacrifice for the elf.
[21:19] what kind of choices were made?
[21:20] love is often like that
[21:20] to chose between love for the mortal you marry and love for your immortal life
[21:20] Tuor went with Idril to Undying lands
[21:21] Arwen became mortal
[21:21] Nimrodels cleared off after giving Imrazor 2 children
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[21:21] hi mellie!
[21:21] Luthien became mortal
[21:22] Mithrellas not Nimrodel
[21:22] hi Samwisegamgee+
[21:23] am I in the right place?
[21:23] The choice was given to Elwing, Elrond and Elros, would this be due in part to their Maiar descent?
[21:23] The lady elf also gave up her elven family
[21:23] it was also a sacrifice for the elves, to lose one of their own to mortalitly.
[21:23] yes, Mellie, welcome
[21:23] yes you are mellie
[21:24] i think because elwing is decended from luthien and beren
[21:24] Tuor never had maiar blood so probably not
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[21:25] Elwing was the daughter of Dior and Nimloth
[21:25] so she she would have Maiar blood
[21:26] But Tuor who didn't was allowed immortality
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[21:26] because he married an elf.
[21:26] granted by Manwe, was it not, Val?
[21:27] I believe it was Manwe, although I think he had to consult with Eru
[21:27] as in all things
[21:28] I know of four unions and all made different choices
[21:28] Elrond and Elros were given the choice. What did they chose?
[21:28] and what were they val?
[21:28] i think they chose to linger for a time and delay their choice, is what it said
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[21:29] oh sorry, that 's what elldan and elrohir did, not elrond and elros
[21:29] Elrond, elvish path... Elros, mortal
[21:29] elrond chose to be an elf and elros a man.
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[21:29] hello dagaz
[21:29] * Dagaz nods
[21:29] Why would Elrond's children be given a choice and not Elros children?
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[21:30] Because once a man always a man
[21:30] was elros's wife a mortal or an elf?
[21:30] Because elrond married an elf, Elros married a human
[21:30] alright, then i agree with val
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[21:31] And I believe Grondy is right too, once a mortal, always a mortal (except Tuor)
[21:31] why do you think manwe made the exception?
[21:31] Do we know who Elros' wife was?
[21:32] But was there no elvish blood passed down Elros line at all?
[21:32] I've always put it down to a whim of Tolkien
[21:32] no, grondmaster.
[21:32] at least not in any resources that I ahve
[21:32] yes, i suppose it was just that he liked the character of tuor so much he wanted to favor him, every postAuthorID does
[21:32] no, we don't grondmaster
[21:33] sure elvish blood was passed down, but it may have been recessive
[21:33] What about Aragorn, he did have unique abilities. Were these because of his elvish or maia blood?
[21:33] i think because of his numenroean blood
[21:34] or was he just a strong man.
[21:34] both of what you said rednell
[21:34] which came from elven/maian blood
[21:34] yes, i forgot that grondmaster
[21:35] Numenorian blood.... Faramir had more elven blood than Aragorn
[21:35] Was this the plan of Eru, that man's blood would have to be strengthen with elven/maia blood in in order for them to come into their rule of Middle Earth.
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[21:35] and faramir had just as many abilities as aragorn
[21:36] Faramir didn't have the maia bloodline though, did he Val?
[21:36] I don't thin Faramir had long life
[21:36] That's true, Nell
[21:36] It must be the maian blood that is the strong bit then
[21:37] I think that is the uniqueness that Aragorn possessed
[21:37] i think that men would come to rule ME even without maiar blood, it was the elves destiny to fade
[21:37] Maian blood would be the Flame Imperishable
[21:37] Bur it was Eru's plan, and the Lord works in mysterious ways
[21:38] Elrond knew of Aragorn's bloodline, why was he so resistant to Arwen's choice?
[21:38] Because he was mortal
[21:38] because he loved her and did not want her to die
[21:38] because he didn't want to lose his daughter
[21:39] and he had seen the decay of men over his lifetime
[21:39] but the joining of Arwen and Aragorn brings the maia blood back together. This was best for Middle Earth and for the Maia
[21:39] he did not fully understand mortals
[21:39] Aragorn wasn't the man that Elendil was
[21:40] Isildur was the problem
[21:40] but Elrond knew the time was near for the Elves to leave Middle Earth in the hands of man
[21:40] isildur was weak, and aragorn was isildurs heir
[21:40] Who told him that?
[21:40] yes, Isildur did mess the whole plan up a bit.
[21:40] who told him what?
[21:40] That it was the time of man
[21:41] Was it preordained that the elves would leave, or were they just going
[21:41] Elrond knew the time of the elves was coming to an end. Who else was there but man.
[21:41] Where was it written for Elrond to read
[21:41] i think it was preordained. but the elves couldn't know that, they are not ainur
[21:41] I think it was prordained.
[21:42] Someone must have told Elrond, but the third theme was by Eru alone
[21:42] How was Elrond to know, coul;d he reqad tea leaves
[21:42] gandalf, perhaps?
[21:42] Only Eru should have known the future of man and elves
[21:43] And maybe Mandos
[21:43] Eru works through people, through manwe and mandos, so why should he not work through elrond?
[21:43] he said that Arwen would not marry any man less he was the king
[21:44] I think he just saw that his people were leaving ME and were no longer going to be the dominant power
[21:44] i think that was a challenge to aragorn, sort of like saying, okay, you want to marry arwen, you have to claim what is yours first
[21:44] Which was just the old plot to get rid of Beren played out a second time
[21:44] so you do not think it was preordained, val, but simply comman wisdom?
[21:45] true, grondmaster, good point
[21:45] But if he felt man was so weak, wouldn't he see that the elven strain would strengthen them
[21:45] I think he knew Gondor/ Arnor must be reunited and it gave Aragorn an incentive to do it
[21:45] good point
[21:45] i think he thought that it would weaken the elven strain
[21:46] It needed doing and Elrond sacrificed his daughter to do it
[21:46] remember that Elrond was half elven
[21:46] I sense Gandalf's hand working in the background in all this, and we know who his boss was, right
[21:46] elrond did not want to sacrifice his daughter though
[21:46] Aragorn's son would then be strong like his brother Elros
[21:46] that is what I sense, too grondmaster
[21:46] i think elrond regretted his brothers choice as he did his daughters
[21:47] And perhaps his sons
[21:47] Gandalf got the word to Elrond, who put up a high hoop for Aragorn to jump through
[21:47] sorry, i have to go. i look forward to reading about how this discussion comes out later.
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[21:48] ah, you think so?
[21:48] but it was part of the plan
[21:49] Why Aragorn, then, and not any of the preceeding Rangers?
[21:49] because of the Maia blood
[21:49] Would man have been strong enough though if there was not the elven mix
[21:49] All the other Rangers of his line had that
[21:49] Aragorn was descended from Elros
[21:50] Chieftains, I( should have said
[21:50] perhaps the maia blood was stronger in him. Afterall, he had healing powers.
[21:50] Val, you mean why not one of Aragorn's fathers?
[21:50] It was a direct line, father to son, so all his ancesters on that line would have had the blood
[21:51] but the bloodline would weaken with each mortal marriage.
[21:51] The blood was thinning with every generation.... Was it just a case of the time is right?
[21:51] but maybe the fullness of time had not yet arrived until Aragorn's time
[21:51] That is why I believe it was preordained. Why else would Aragorn be the one with the maia blood evident by his healing powers.
[21:52] And he had spent time among the other free peoples learning their ways, like in Rohan and Gondor
[21:52] He was said to be more like Elandil than any before him
[21:52] just as I believe that Aragorn and Awen had to be married to unit the bloodline.
[21:53] I agree Rednell, by doing that what came after would be strong enough to last
[21:54] For a time
[21:54] yes, and would prevent any more renegad maia bloodlines out there.
[21:54] True, it did tie the knot at both ends
[21:54] And we had to get rid of Sauron too
[21:55] for a time, yes, Val. But if we look at Middle Earth as a time before us then the time of the loss of any trace of the strenght of the bloodline is gone./
[21:55] I am sure Tolkien could not see anything left of Middle Earth in UK during the war.
[21:56] It begs the question of what the twins did
[21:57] I do wish Tolkien had addressed that issue.
[21:57] Didn't Celeborn stay too?
[21:57] It does mean that there was still maia blood out there, albeit, mostly elven
[21:58] Maybe to pop up with a new heir each time it gets to thin and men become too weak
[21:58] as far as we know, I think Celeborn did stay.
[21:59] no, I really think that the twins would decide to leave.
[21:59] or die
[21:59] Elros provided the line of leaders of men and Elrond was their to try to nuture them when it was time, except Isildur wouldn't listen.
[21:59] That's a good point Grondy
[21:59] Even if they had mortal lives they would be very long and as you have addressed in the forum, that would be painful to watch friends just die of
[21:59] Like having two egg baskets
[22:00] That is an excellant point, Grondy
[22:01] But would the twins see that there was no place for the elves in Middle Earth and decide to leave?
[22:01] Had Isildur tossed the ring, Elrond might have been able to head west earlier
[22:01] I think in time they would, if they didn't choose to become mortal
[22:02] Are we talking about Elrond's twins here?
[22:02] If they chose to become mortal and married then we would be right back at the beginning again.
[22:03] Had Isildur tossed the ring, would man have been strong enough to rule Middle Earth?
[22:03] If the twins had married, then their heirs would not have been given the choice of immortality.
[22:04] Probably not, but then that wasn't Tolkien's story
[22:04] With the best intentions, they'd already messed up in Numenore, so perhaps no
[22:04] Hence there was method behind Tolkien's madness then.
[22:05] Sauron was around then to corrupt them, however
[22:05] This is true, good point.
[22:05] Maybe if Isidur had tossed the ring, there'd have been no Sauron, so they might have been okay
[22:06] Tolkien need all that time to pull all the loose strings together such that men would have the strenghth to rule when the elves finally left.
[22:06] Maybe Arwen would have married one of Isildur's sons
[22:07] I suppose that would be possible, but it would have shortened the story just a bit.
[22:07] I think it was all timing, and for that, I smell the hand of Eru
[22:08] For sure, Val. Preordained.
[22:08] As you say, preordained.
[22:08] That's the thing, Rednell, it was written as a story... You have to work the facts around fiction so to speak
[22:09] And besides Tolkien need the four books to become immortalized in our history
[22:09] The point I wanted people to see was thebloodline of the man who would be king was strengthened by the blood of the maia and the elves.
[22:09] He wrote us an excellant story and left us to ponder the what ifs
[22:10] It certainly did that
[22:10] ... and that Arwen and Aragorn had to be married to bring that bloodline back into one again.
[22:10] It'd been bad if Eowyn had had her way
[22:10] The half-elven had a very important role in the shaping of the story.
[22:11] It would have ruined everything if Eowyn had her way.
[22:11] Right Rednell, but until I saw this weeks leson plan, I didn't know that was where we were headed. Now it all make sense. We just needed to see the big picture. Thanks.
[22:12] Because of the elven lore, they had always been like lords over the men. It was logical their blood would make kings of men
[22:12] I think most people miss that fact that Aragorn was more than just a man and Arwen more than just an elf.
[22:13] As Grondmaster, it does help make sense of things when you can follow the bloodline.
[22:13] I think they have to make a choice too, because of the final fate and the second music
[22:13] And the Maia blood gave them all an extra boost.
[22:13] That is where the magic comes in Grondmaster, so to speak.
[22:14] I would still like to know what choice the twins made. That drives me crazy.
[22:14] He did that on purpose
[22:15] Nice of him.