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Thread: Week 16 - Of Eagles and Horses

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I'm afraid I won't be able to make this one Rednell. Thae pains of being on holiday again Tongue Smilie
Thanx Rednell, i'll try to look those up, but i'm not yet sure if i'll be there or not, if i do make it on sunday, i'm gonna be a bit late,,,


Start of #Bilbos-Study buffer: Sun Jan 26 04:44:20 2003
* Now talking in #Bilbos-Study
* Topic is 'This is Planet-Tolkien.com's Tolkien class room! If a
class is not currently active and no one is about, try #Tolkien'
* Set by Barliman on Sun Oct 13 17:40:43
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Welcome Rednell - Hello Friends
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Welcome Grondmaster -
Hi Nell
Welcome Grondmaster
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Welcome chikakat -
Welcome Calm
Welcome chikakat
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Welcome Prog - Hey everyone! Look what the cat dragged in!
welcome Prog
ah.... cozy in here
throw a log on the fire, would ya Red?
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Welcome Remi -
hi Remi
Hiya remi
hi remi
Welcome Rednell
Welcome Remi
talking to yourself, eh?
yeah, I will tell you why later.
three letters Nell Big Smile Smilie
thanks Grondmaster, I will remember that hint, it is a good
one
oops not supposed to use icons or actions in here.
Did everyone read the information posted in the forum about
the eagles?
yup
yup
I didn't, do I get detention?
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I didn't realize I would be here today
go sit in the corner, Prog
hehe
ok, who sent the Eagles to Middle Earth and why?
*puckers bottom lip*
Manwe
Manwe, yeah
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Welcome Remi -
correct, why?
hi all
wb
to spy on Morgoth's neferous deeds
to watch Morgoth
yes, the Eagles were essentiallly the eyes and ears of Manwe
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Welcome Isengarder -
and to provide a comvenient plot device
hello
Where did the Eagles live?
welcome, Isengarder
darned convieniend, I'd say
in the north, in the mountains
Philadelphia?
sorry
Actually, Tolkien didn't find the eagles a convienient plot
device at all.
top of mountains rather than top of tall trees
no... came back to bite him later, didn't it?
how so?
Was there a difference between the Eagles of the first age
and the Eagles of the 3rd age?
because it brought up certain questions
why didnt the eagles let mortals ride them?
like all beings and things they grew lesser in size
He found them difficult to put in the plot as credible
characters
yes, grondmaster.
I see
as time passed*
Can anyone answer Isengarder's question. Why didn't the
Eagles not let anyone ride them?
Perhaps they were snobs?
no man tames the eagles
I'm not trying to be funny...
I mean really, perhaps they just didn't think mortals were
worthy
i think they were just too proud
right...that's what I was trying to say
I mean, they're not beasts of burden...they're their own
species...nobody'd make a fuss if an Elf wouldn't carry someone
around on his back
In LOTR, Council of Elrond, Gwaihir says to Gandalf, " I
was sent to bear postThreadIDings not burdens.
Ah
see, they were lazy!
very good analogy, chikakat
oh, i remember that
no, they were bred to be the eyes and ears of Manwe, a valar
but obviously they were physically capable of transporting
humanoids
I would think it would be beneath them to simply be a means
of transportation.
They only let Gandalf and his friends ever ride them
and that was in their talons
that doesn't mean they should have to
Prog: yes they were, but that was not their purpose.
and they did do it when necessary
on very rare occasions.
were there different species of eagles in ME?
yes
Are we told of the different species, Grondmaster?
wow, thats something new
those fron Valinor and the common un-garden variety we
have today
It was necessary to pluck gandalf off of Orthanc and save Sam
and Frodo from the fires of mount doom, but it wasn't necessary to
destroy the One Ring?
That is a good question, Prog.
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Welcome Mellie -
How would you suggest that they destroy the ring?
Gandalf didn't ask them to destroy the ring, it wasn't
part of the music
Why did gwaihir do what he did, but still was too proud to
assist Frodo in his quest?
oh man, i dont really feel so good
It was men and hobbits job to do that
True
imgonna take a nap
Bye Isengarder
bye Isengarder...feel better
bye guys
bye
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If Men were to be caretakers of ME then they had to prove
that they could do the job without the help of the Valar
that makes sense
it's better than just pride
But just exam how the Eagles could have done the task.
Are you suggesting that they carry the ringbearer and the
ring, or just the ring?
Ah HA!
flown over and dropped it while getting their feathers
singed
I see what you're saying!
They would be at risk from the ring!
assuming it had an open caldera
right
what's a caldera?
oh, nevermind, I know
sorry
Even carrying the ringbearer, the load would become quite
unbearable
the crater at the top of a volcano
indeed... and they couldn't carry just the ring because they
would risk being corrupoted by it
It is assumed that it did, Grondmaster, since smoke spewed
out of ti.
it*
no self-respecting bird woulf fly over an active one
LOL
Good point
Not to mention all those Orcs repairing the road to Mt
Doom, they probably would take a few pot shots with the arrows.
right
They were unwilling to go into Mordor until the Ring was
destroyed
for a number of reasons, I would imagine
I think it was a much more clever plot to have an
inconspiculous Hobbit do the task.
Don't forget the Nazgul flying around on their winged thingies
ah, yes, but remember the Eagles could outfly the winged
steeds.
and as Val said in the Forum, "Give us another 700
pages of the book"
but could they do it after carrying a hobbit for miles and
miles?
not to mention the Eagles did fight the Nazgul on their
steeds in the fields of Cormallen
that may be, but the Winbged Steeds could still have guarded
Orodruin
preventing an eagle from getting close
That is a good point, chikakat. How much stamina did the
Eagles have for carrying people
good point, Prog
but that doesn't explain why Gwaihir didn't at least carry
Frodo as far as , say Ithilien
because we wanted to read the book that Tolkien wrote,
not conjecture, maybe
There were many dangers, maybe Frodo could slip in with
more stelth with just Sam and Gollum
I feel like Gwaihir carrying Frodo to Ithilien would have
been like holding up a sign to Sauron, pointing out the plan
That is a good point, Grondy. This is the way Tolkien wrote
the book.
true chika
the reason everything worked was that Sauron didn't think
they'd try and destroy it
Excellant point chikakat
But recall that when the Fellowship started out, there were
nine going to Mordor
nine walking I think is still more secretive than a giant
flying eagle
LOL.... point taken
I find it interesting that in the great scheme of the book,
there is not a lot of reference to the Eagles, but they are vital
to the plot.
that's what I meant by plot device
even if iut wasn't especially convenient
it*
at certain critical moments, like when things are going
to Hades
Seems to be the time that the Valar do interfer, even
though they claim not to.
Shelob is sort of the same way, I think...important, but
not really explained
the hand of Manwe has to step in and nudge things a bit?
that is what I am thinking, Grondmaster
yeah, I'd agree with that
happened in the Hobbit too.
Just as Gandalf had to return as in the more commanding
role of Gandalf the White
twice
It has the look of an postAuthorID painting himself into a corner
and then saying "I know! Giant eagles!"
Hey, it worked!
But we know Tolkien wouldn't have done that
He would have scrapped the whole thing and gone back to the
drawing board
before taking the easy way out
I think he actually had the plan in place anyway. The
Silmarillion was written before LOTR
he was never in a rush to publish, is what I'm saying
ah, but he did, because he wanted to get on with the
Silmarillion and besides it adds a sense of mystery
some of the Sil was written prior
there was a topic around a while ago...(I'm looking for it
but not succeeding)...about evidence of a higher power in LotR, and
how there didn't really seem to be a god anywhere...I didn't think
of it at the time, but I suppose this is the sort of thing
whoever-it-was was looking for
Much of what he put in LOTR had already been developed in
the Sil.
Perhaps, my personal belief is that the Valar were involved
because Man had to be prepared to take over after the Elves left.
but lets not forget, like the bible, the Sil is a mish mash of
different ideas, different outlines of books thrown together and
heavily edited
that is the best explanation
yes, but it is amazing how so much of it comes together.
and that Gwaihir, like Gandalf, was unwilling to touch the One
Ring
which is why I think it is the current prevailing
theory Nell
He knew who forged the Ring and knew the dangers
even if he was only carrying Frodo and not in direct contact,
he wasn't willing to risk a mishap
which theory, Grondy?
That the Valar were involved via the eagles
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to help the men succeed
That would be too much interference. The only reason
Gandalf was given more leeway was because the Valar didn't expect
Saruman to give them such problems.
in taking over after the elves left
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ah, yes, Grondy, that is my theory.
I agree
but I still think there was an element of fear there.,.. fear
of the Ring
I can see the hand of the Valar in all the events and
people involved.
and you are right Prog the eagles wouldn't have wanted
to take the ring
Of course there would be fear of the ring. It was made by a
Maiar who put some of his essence into it.
and to fear the One Ring is a healthy thing LOL
the Ring was in effect a living thing.
it WAS Sauron to a degree
BRB
yes, that is how Sauron could ensure the power of the Ring
back
I love that Tolkien has chosen probably the most noble of
birds to play such a vital role in the story.
well, it wouldn't have worked if Gwaihir was a giant Ostrich
or Emu or something likw that
He also places a great deal of importance on the most noble
of domestic animals, the horse.
YES!
I can't see a house wren doing the job
oh nice segue, nell
haha
Let's start with Shadowfax.
a horse among horses
Shadowfax was incredible... lord of horses
What do we know about Shadowfax, what makes him lord of
horses?
descendent of the mearas
of Felarof, the first mearas
which is, Grondy?
AKA Mansbane
Why was he named Mansbane?
decendents of Orome's horse wozname
good, here some the Valar again
because he seemd untamable
come*
and he killed someone...who was it?
Eorl's horse was also one
Lord Leod
Eorl the Young's father
right
..and the descendants of Felarof will bear no one but the
King..correct?
don't know that bit
In the Appendix, Grondmaster.
they carry whoever they want to...
and nobody else
yeah
That would explain why Theoden had no love for Gandalf.
Gandalf rode Shadowfax
kings and princes... and Gandalf
Shadowfax should have been Theoden's horse.
or Theodred's
He was Theoden's horse, wan't he?
Gandalf stole him LOL
no man had been able to ride him
I think Shadowfax decided that.
Ah, yes
I recall now
What were some of Shadowfax's characteristics?
swift as the flowing wind
tireless
he was grey
could understand human speech, I think
camoflauged
silver grey really
once he chose to bear a rider, he wouldn't let him fall
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silver by day; as shade by night
yes
he was very very cool too
his footfall was light as well.
Great horse if you want to sneak into enemy territory
isn't it also said that he was the greatest mearas to ever
exist (whatever that might mean)
fastest I assume
probably the most intelligent, as well.
So if Theoden couldn't have Shadowfax, which horse did he
have?
Snowbane
Snowmane
oops Froidian slip
LOL
yep, Theoden's bane
I think we really see how the Rohan's revered the horse
with Snowmane
Snowmane was also a meara
wan't he/
?
wasn't*
I am assuming so, the son of Lightfoot
I quit reading before I found a description, assume
he/she was dark with a white mane
he then in the poem?
What did they do with Snowmane's remains?
buried in a mound where flowers grew
what was normally done with the carcasses?
alright, I'm off...good-bye, guys
the other mound where the Nazgtuls mount was buried
remanid baren
bye Chika
yes
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bye Chika
think they may have buned them?
burned*
Yes, that is what they did, Grondmaster
Snowmane even got a marker: Faithful Servant, yet master's
bane Lightfoots' foal, swift Snowmane
ah, yes
*sniffs
Interesting that grass would grow long and green on
Snowmanes grave, but the resting place of the Nazgul's steeds
remain barren.
probably a lesser mearas, not as great as Shadowfax
none were as great as Shadowfax
polluted ground Nell
yes, a reminder of the Evil which resided on Middle Earth.
caused by the corrupted beast buried there
What are the names of some of the other horses and how well
did they serve their masters?
while Snowmane was a good horse whose only harm was
caused by fear of the Nazgul and its steed
good point
Bill the Poney
Asfalof
Yes, ever faithfull Bill
Lord of Ponys
riden only by Frodo I think
I don't remember
Asfalof was the horse referred to earlier who would not let
his rider fall.
I wonder if the Elves bought their horses from the Rohan.
Like Shadowfax, his pace was light and smooth and he was
faster than the Nazgul steeds.
Asfalof was mentioned as an elf-horse
Hasufel
thanks, Grondmaster. I missed that.
What happened to Hasufel at the Paths of the Dead?
I'm drawing a blank at this point
Hasufel was large and dark grey
Aragorn road his own horse at this point because only the
ranger's horses were not spooked.
I think it got scared and Aragorn had to calm hin
down,unles it was Legolas who did that
Legolas covered Arod's eyes and sang gently to him to get
him through
ah, that was the one
I am not sure if Hasufel went with them.
I don't think so
What was Aragorn's horse... started with an R
probably not as now Aragorn had Roheryn back
That is my assumption
Roheryn?
Oh yes....doh!
The Ranger's horses seem to be a hardy breed.
Roheryn was strong, proud beareing, and rough-haired?
Sorry, I wasn't paying much attention LOL
Wasn't Roheryn a gift from Arwen... or am I confusing my
horses again?
He was Aragorn's horse. The Ranger's brought him with them
when they met Aragorn.
I don't remember
"Aragorn' own horse"
but Arwen gave Aragorn a horse
I remember
brought from the north
I just donj't remember the name or where I read it LOL
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Welcome Mellie -
We will have to look that one up and post it in the lesson
forum.
I would have sworn it was Roheryn though
may have been in the appendix A
Here endth this week's lesson. Both the Eagles and the
Horses were noble "kelvar" sent to Middle Earth to assist Men
fulfill their destiny
good show
thank you Rednell
I will check that out, Prog. It is possible that she gave
it to him at some point before.
your welcome
Shall we retire to the other room