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Thread: Week 17 - 21Fellowship of the Ring - Book I

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Week 18 - February 9th
This week we will discuss Chapter 2: The Shadow of the Past.
I will be away, however, the class will be lead by PT Council Members.

See you in Bilblos-Study Sunday 9pm GMT (4pm ET)
Nell, tried to send the info to me and the attachments did not work, I don't feel qualified to teach it. But I will try. I will definetly need help from the other council members.
I am going out of town on a family emergency, I will not be around for the class. Sorry folks, not sure what the rest of the council has planned. Class may be cancelled until Nell gets back.

I think myself and Grondy are still up for covering for Rednell. Unless some emergency comes up in the meantime, I shall be there at the normal time.
Log for class is as follows:
Quote:
[21:07] Okay, let us begin our study of the second chapter of FotR
[21:07] The Shaddow of the Past
[21:07] Hi Sam
[21:08] There were roumors of things strange things happening, what were some of them?
[21:08] Elves leaving ME, lots of Dwarves heading West
[21:08] Trolls and a walking tree
[21:09] There terrible creatures about
[21:09] Rumours of a dark lord in Mordor
[21:09] what they said....
[21:09] and the trolls were armed and not quite so dim witted as before
[21:10] What was the attitude of the Hobbits toward these roumors
[21:10] they heard them, but didn't pay them much mind
[21:10] Or they rejected them as fantasy
[21:10] Something to talk about around the fire place... It was happening elsewhere so they were not really bothered
[21:10] They brushed them off and thought they were folly
[21:11] yes I agree
[21:11] * Joins: Airecristiel (moonglow_3@e15dd1c3.dea5ea3e.com.hmsk)
[21:11] Welcome Airecristiel - Airecristiel hugs everybody and says "Hello!"
[21:11] * Barliman sets mode: +v Airecristiel
[21:11] what they said...
[21:11] they even called the rumours "fairytales for kids"
[21:12] Why do you think Tolkien introduces us to the rising of the Dark Lord just as roumors in the Shire?
[21:12] hi Aire. the hobbits are not used to rumours
[21:12] Because the shire is our safe place
[21:12] because the book (or most of it) is from the hobbits perspective
[21:12] because he wants us to see where the hobbits are coming from
[21:12] He wants us to see it from the Hobbits point of view
[21:12] I think anything that occured outside of the Shire was of little interest to the Hobbits... They were very isolated
[21:12] they had very little contact with others outside the Shire
[21:12] It provides atransition between the bucolic Shire setting and the later serious themes, i think
[21:13] yes definately. we can fit into the Shire better than other places, so it does give us that transition
[21:13] It also make the stories more ominous that they are not given credibility
[21:13] bucolic?? what's that?
[21:13] Because four of his main characters are from here, he needs to show the reader how strange the world would seem to them
[21:13] Sorry -- like farming, countryside settings
[21:13] ok, tnx
[21:13] Yes to emphasize how prorevted the Hobbits are from the surrounding world
[21:13] it sets up the later revelation of the ring nicely, also...there are all these rumors, and then it all becomes real
[21:14] Danger doesn't truly happen till they reach the Old Forest.
[21:14] they meet the first wraith before that...
[21:14] they don't care for anything but thei comfort
[21:14] they even pass throught a gate, in that chapter, animating the transition
[21:15] Good point, Komosot
[21:15] And they don't like Gandalf's influence on Frodo
[21:15] Gandalf caused Bilbo to crack and is sending Frodo the same way
[21:16] They don't like him except for his fireworks
[21:16] Honestly, i think this whole point we are making ties along with the fact that Tom Bombadil is the reader. But that's a different story.
[21:16] Sorry, what gate do they pass through?
[21:16] yes that is interesting Komosot
[21:16] that metal gate...in the Old forest
[21:16] The gate into the Old Forest
[21:16] not in this chapter
[21:16] The gate in High Hay
[21:16] Oh okay
[21:16] or that stone gate that simply "dissapears"
[21:17] in the barrowdowns
[21:17] So Gandalf returns
[21:17] But this is the chapter that starts everything moving to the serious realities of later
[21:17] which is that Ghan?
[21:17] He returns briefly over the years to keep his eye on Frodo
[21:18] I think to see what influence the ring is having on him
[21:18] after many years away with a tale of the ring, that it is REALLY dangerous
[21:18] When ever he visits the other Hobbits start gossiping again
[21:18] Tolkien had a problem, he had to turn a childrens book "the hobbit" into an adult sequel, that is way we see the obvious transition from the shire too the Old Forest.
[21:19] It's during this time that he has the Rangers guard the Shire too
[21:19] This is also the chapter in which the Ring is revealed as something extraordinary
[21:19] He's gone for something like 9 years isn't he?
[21:19] yes grondy, when he comes back the last time he is almost sure it's the one ring
[21:19] Isildur's scroll
[21:19] He just has to confirm it
[21:19] yes he was gone 9 years to pin down what the ring was
[21:20] how did he confirm it
[21:20] yes Komosot , that is a good point (about kids book to adult book) hence Tolkien's need to bring us into a book that begins with the same atompshere as The Hobbit
[21:20] Isildur's scroll...
[21:20] put it in the fire
[21:20] He threw the ring in the fire?
[21:20] During that time he got a hold of Gollum
[21:20] Placing it in the fire revealed the hidden script
[21:20] and saw the markings
[21:20] watching Frodo and Bilbo
[21:20] wasn't it aragorn who caught Gollum?
[21:20] Right Sam, and the Old Forest, is that gate that teleports us into the adult gate. Tom is our guide.
[21:20] Good point, sam. that aroused his suspicions
[21:21] Yes, but Gandalf did question him
[21:21] the Woodelves caught Gollum I thought
[21:21] no
[21:21] Aragorn caught Gollum and Gandalf questioned him
[21:21] The woodelves kept Gollum prisoned
[21:21] they held Gollum "prisoned"
[21:21] Aragorn captured him in the Dead Marshes and they took him to Mirkwood
[21:21] yes you're right Thingolfin
[21:21] The woodelves accidently released Gollum, as well.
[21:22] Gandalf got his story after much hard work
[21:22] Legolas decribes Gollums escape being contributed to the wood Elves "pity"
[21:22] They did that out of kindness... they pitied him
[21:22] at the council
[21:22] yes
[21:22] * Joins: Delidia (pt@bd1504e3.mrdnct.adsl.2836931f.net.hmsk)
[21:22] Welcome Delidia -
[21:22] * Barliman sets mode: +v Delidia
[21:22] hey
[21:22] peoples
[21:22] lol
[21:22] that was one of the Elves failing points pity
[21:22] hi Delidia
[21:22] No, they took him for a walk out of pity, but then lots of orcs came and as the woodelves were trying to kill them, Gollum excaped.
[21:22] what we talkin bout?
[21:22] He escaped because they let him out now and then to climb the trees
[21:23] um...?
[21:23] escaped*
[21:23] But pity plays a constant role in allowing Gollum to fulfil his purpose
[21:23] This is a lesson about chapter 2 of FotR
[21:23] In UT it says that sauron purposely sent an attack on Mirkwood hoping to free Gollum.
[21:23] The second Chapter of FotR Delidia
[21:23] o
[21:23] ok
[21:23] Del: we're talking about the second chapter of FotR
[21:23] thanx
[21:23] Gollum is still captive people
[21:23] Komosot, that's the orcs that were attacking the woodelves on their walk with Gollum.
[21:24] ok, lets stay in ch 2 folks..
[21:24] right Aire.
[21:24] That is for a latter discussion
[21:24] At this time, yes
[21:24] lala
[21:24] o sry
[21:24] yes, back to chapter two.
[21:24] ok
[21:24] chapter 2 makes you want to talk about chap 3-6, lol
[21:24] What did Gandalf say about pity
[21:24] Smile Smilie
[21:24] Big Smile Smilie
[21:24] No Smiles please
[21:24] pity was what stopped bilbo from killing gollum
[21:25] he said Pity is what saved Bilbo from the Ring
[21:25] pity stayed bilbo's hand
[21:25] Pity will play a part in Frodo's part of the Quest
[21:25] What did Frodo think about Gollum
[21:25] Don't be so quick to deal out death in judgement
[21:25] Frodo did pity him
[21:25] he thought he deserved death
[21:26] in the begining
[21:26] even wise cannot see all ends
[21:26] when he asw him
[21:26] *saw
[21:26] Frodo found him disgusting at first.
[21:26] Frodo couldn't understand why Bilbo didn't kill him
[21:26] Indeed, Komosot
[21:26] that he was as bad as an orc and deserved to die
[21:26] good word: disgusting
[21:26] * Joins: Littleirena (pt@80ec8844.vc.5eb2c41d.net.hmsk)
[21:26] Welcome Littleirena -
[21:26] * Barliman sets mode: +v Littleirena
[21:26] hey
[21:26] hullo
[21:26] hi Irena
[21:26] Hi Irina
[21:26] Hi irena
[21:26] how's the class going?
[21:27] um...
[21:27] I think one of Tolkien's greta skills was to establish the foundations of later themes -- the pity thing is one example
[21:27] class is going great! for me anyway. yes Ghan I agree
[21:27] another line on pity: gandalf meant that since bilbo started his ownership of the ring with pity, that was the reason it hurt him so little.
[21:28] I think many of the themes of LotR are stated in the second chap. of FotR
[21:28] it is a sort of overall view
[21:28] agree
[21:28] That's why it's so difficult to stick to this chapter
[21:28] It is also interesting that the time-scale of Ch2 covers years whereas Ch1 was almost all present action
[21:28] hey Ghan
[21:28] !
[21:28] how are you?
[21:29] yes that's true Ghan
[21:29] Chap. 2 is mostly dialouge
[21:29] Cool! TY let's stick to the topic LOL
[21:29] Notice pity and Mercy are personified and that Pity minimized the pain Bilbo would have to endure because of the ring. Bilbo was meant to find the ring and not by its maker, then who wanted Bilbo to find the ring?
[21:29] Eru
[21:29] huh?
[21:29] yes
[21:29] Yes
[21:29] perhaps Eru
[21:29] ok...im zonein
[21:29] The ring wanted a new owner but it was Eru who chose Bilbo
[21:30] Was it the Ring? Was it part of Eru's plan?
[21:30] GOd works in mysterious ways...
[21:30] * Delidia is now known as Delidia_zoning
[21:30] he
[21:30] lol
[21:30] Yes, something happened that the ring did not intend
[21:30] lol
[21:30] sry
[21:30] the Ring is personified in Chap. 2, in the rest of the book it is not really
[21:31] personified
[21:31] Why didn't Eru just throw the ring in mount doom?
[21:31] um.....
[21:31] he had to work through people
[21:31] i dunno?
[21:31] well, he sort of did that, but through Bilbo and Frodo
[21:31] yeah yeah...
[21:31] hehe
[21:31] The fact that Gandalf says, " and that is an encouraging thought" indicates it was Eru I think
[21:31] I don't think Eru ever came into ME himself
[21:31] I thing Gandalf finds it "an encouraging thought", then he must see some other power at work besides the ring
[21:31] he worked through manwe and the other valars i think
[21:31] but doesn't the ring have a sort of personnality for itself, could it have wanted a different owner thanBilbo?
[21:31] Eru was incarnate
[21:32] the ring almost certainly wanted an owner other than Bilbo
[21:32] the ring wants Sauron to be its owner.
[21:32] But it didn't have many choices in the Shire
[21:32] remember Bilbo said it was hard to hold on to...slipped off all the time
[21:32] I imagine the ring saying "Dol!" when bilbo picks him up.
[21:32] I think it did Irena, but it was Eru who decided
[21:32] The music of the Ainur before time decided the fate of ME before the world even began... That is how Eru Manipulates things
[21:32] So it stuck with Bilbo for the time being
[21:33] it was almost like the Ring 'slept' until Sauron began sending out his thought from Mirkwood
[21:33] and Bilbo gave it up almost voluntarily
[21:33] and so took little hurt from it
[21:33] Yes Sam, the ring awoke when it sensed Sauron was back
[21:33] yes val, but I think it's up to man and elf to decide how it's gonna happen
[21:34] because he was not so easily corrupted by its power, and he had the guidance of Gandalf
[21:34] what if the ring was lost, and Gollum hadn't found it? would Sauron diminish and fade away eventually?
[21:34] yes, that is a good distinction Perwing: fate and how fate is carried out
[21:34] * Delidia_zoning is now known as Delidiabyebye
[21:34] The ring's reduced effcet of Bilbo is somehow parallel to its having no powewr over Tom. But I think it is just a part-animate extension of sauron himself
[21:34] that is interesting Ghan
[21:34] I don't think Sauron would have diminished if the Ring was never found...as long as it existed, so woul dhe
[21:34] would he*
[21:34] No, Sauron would live while the ring was in existance
[21:35] he'd just continue lurking around like he had been, scheming to gain power
[21:35] I think that Bilbo is resisting the Ring, the Ring is not really claiming Bilbo
[21:35] Gandalf says himself Sauron will win with or without the ring, if it's not destroyed...
[21:35] I agree, Chika. But he has greater power with the ring
[21:35] bARLIMAN JUST CALLED ME A GOOFBALL
[21:35] Barliman
[21:35] *
[21:35] Even if Gollum hadn't found it somebody else eventually would.
[21:35] yes chika, I agree, he could never come into full power w/o the Ring, but without it he could not die
[21:35] and he prefers having it(bilbo)
[21:36] It was his anchor to ME
[21:36] Why couldn't Gandalf, just use the ring to defeat Sauron?
[21:36] Bilbo prefers having the Ring Irena?
[21:36] he could, but then he'd become a dark lord in his own right
[21:36] the little.......BEEP
[21:36] it would corrupt Gandalf
[21:36] It would corrupt everything he did
[21:36] the ring is evil, it turns everything to evil
[21:36] because sauron had put a lot of his powers into it
[21:36] Gandalf was too powerful
[21:36] He could have, but the ring would have corrupted him and made him a new dark lord
[21:36] ya, Sam- he doesn't give it up easyly
[21:36] HE CALLED ME STUPID!
[21:36] Gandalf had too much powers, he would be corrupted and be worse than Sauron.
[21:36] I get it now Irena, thank you
[21:36] aarrrrrrrgggggghhhhhh
[21:36] gandalf would use it to do good, but the ring would corrupt him eventually
[21:37] yw- at least that is what i think
[21:37] Gandalf would have become more powerful than Sauron
[21:37] same deal with Galadrial
[21:37] yes exactly
[21:37] he just called himself an idoit
[21:37] The possesor of the ring would be taking on part of Sauron's spirit
[21:37] lol
[21:37] and it didn't corrrupt the hobbits because?
[21:37] The ring would have loved either one of them because they had power that it could use
[21:37] The ring is evil innature and cannot be used for lasting good
[21:37] hobbits did not want Power
[21:38] the hobbits were resistant to it because they had very little power and had no desire for ti
[21:38] it*
[21:38] it did curropt hobbits
[21:38] the hobbits have great resiliance, and they dont care for it's powers
[21:38] whatever
[21:38] how do Delidia?
[21:38] they have little ambition
[21:38] how *so?
[21:38] it corrupted Bilbo
[21:38] and Frodo a bit
[21:38] hes freaky
[21:38] ya
[21:38] and gollum
[21:38] eventually, you're right, Del, it does start to take over, but not to the extremity that would have happened to Gandalf
[21:38] yes
[21:38] it corrupted Frodo more than Bilbo, Bilbo gave the ring away, frodo did not
[21:38] that's true, but not nearly as much as say the ring-wraiths
[21:39] Frobo[im sry i hate him] too
[21:39] lol
[21:39] but not do do great evil
[21:39] !
[21:39] Hobbits cared for having a good time, eating and drinking, they did not whish to rule the world.
[21:39] DONT ruin it
[21:39] * ChanServ sets mode: +o Taz
[21:39] lol
[21:39] Frodo was corrupted from day one
[21:39] yup
[21:39] yup
[21:39] how so?
[21:39] he was?
[21:39] anyone who took the Ring was
[21:39] g2g
[21:39] oh that's true
[21:39] * Joins: Revo (revoik@f79ddec3.a1.elektron.6ca6b00c.pl.hmsk)
[21:39] Welcome Revo -
[21:39] bye
[21:39] * Barliman sets mode: +v Revo
[21:39] except Sam sort of
[21:39] Frodo IS corrupted
[21:40] hi Revo
[21:40] * Quits: Thingolfin (Thingolfin@ad7cc934.bb.ee0df7e8.no.hmsk) (Quit: Thingolfin)
[21:40] hey
[21:40] hullo Revo
[21:40] I don't think he was... He took it very close to Mordor before he became corrupted
[21:40] Yes, but in the case of the Hobbits it couldn't do any great evil
[21:40] The ring is in some way also a metaphor for abusive power, which helps to explian its limited effect on Hobbits
[21:40] Sam passively offered to keep the ring, frodo wnet berserk.
[21:40] i think val is right, he didn't care much for it before that
[21:40] and he could not throw it into his own fire when Gandalf asked him to Val
[21:40] well i think frodo is a Corrupted little goofball
[21:40] !
[21:40] yes Ghan, I like that
[21:40] So Gandalf says that Gollum and hobbits and the Shire and Baggins
[21:41] are now know to the Dark Lord
[21:41] making the nine come after frodo
[21:41] Like Gollum, alll he did was take it into a cave and catch fish and little orcs
[21:41] huh?
[21:41] hehe
[21:41] what did Frodo think about that
[21:41] um................................
[21:41] Although he killed his friend to gian it, Arwen
[21:42] gain
[21:42] he got scared
[21:42] it frightened him
[21:42] he wished it had not happened in his time
[21:42] Gollum did not understand the full power of the ring? did he?
[21:42] He was scared and didn't want anything to do with the ring
[21:42] it sort of seemed to resolve him to what needed to be done
[21:42] no he didn't Irena, I don't think
[21:42] kinda like how Smeagol killed Deagol?
[21:42] and he tried to give it away to gandalf
[21:42] to get the ring?
[21:42] the power of theh Ring was working on Gollum but he did not understand it
[21:42] ok,
[21:42] yes Chika it idd
[21:42] *did
[21:43] he knew Sauron knew of the Shire, so that made it clear to him that terrible things could happen to those he loved if he allowed things to go on
[21:43] o....k...
[21:43] * Joins: [eNeRGy] (michael@d664d1e4.upc-c.d93c1fe4.nl.hmsk)
[21:43] Welcome [eNeRGy] -
[21:43] * Barliman sets mode: +v [eNeRGy]
[21:43] So what did Frodo decide to do?
[21:43] <[eNeRGy]> Revo: would you be so nice to remove your clones ?
[21:43] that sort of ties into the rumor question from earlier: these terrible rumors are suddenly true, and the hobbits are all ignorant of it
[21:43] hello energy
[21:43] [eNeRGy] of cours
[21:43] hullo emergy
[21:43] yes chika
[21:43] * Joins: Chaos (eric@d82039.upc-d.chello.nl)
[21:43] Welcome Chaos -
[21:43] * Barliman sets mode: +v Chaos
[21:43] <[eNeRGy]> hello Sam and Littleirena
[21:44] lo Chaos
[21:44] hi
[21:44] hi everybody
[21:44] Frodo decided to take the ring as far away from the Shire as he could possibly manage.
[21:44] after asking gandalf's advice frodo decided he had to take the ring away from hobbiton
[21:44] hullo Chaos
[21:44] <[eNeRGy]> Revo: thanks
[21:44] hi
[21:44] he decided to do what Gandalf wanted him to do'
[21:44] Did Frodo understand the danger he faced?
[21:45] * Littleirena wonders what exactly the topic is?
[21:45] not originally
[21:45] no
[21:45] ya
[21:45] Not at first he didn't
[21:45] i dont think so no
[21:45] nope
[21:45] not in the begining
[21:45] * Parts: [eNeRGy] (michael@d664d1e4.upc-c.d93c1fe4.nl.hmsk) (bye)
[21:45] he became aware of it, though
[21:45] im with irena on that one
[21:45] Yes, he decided to take the ring far from the Shire, but then he procrastinated
[21:45] irena, the topic is Ch 2 of FotR
[21:45] Not the full danger anyway... nor that he would have to take it so far
[21:45] ok, thanx
[21:45] Tiny I: about Chapter Two ogf FotR
[21:45] * Parts: Chaos (eric@d82039.upc-d.chello.nl) (have a nice evening, bye)
[21:46] i dont think he became aware of the dangers before the council of Elrond
[21:46] or before the Ringwraiths on Amon Sul
[21:46] * Quits: Komosot (JavaClient@e54fb55b.pbc.d75a346f.net.hmsk) (Quit: http://cookie.sorcery.net/~ircd_/javachat/)
[21:46] I think he started to understand the dangers from the persuit of the Ringwraiths
[21:46] he probably got a clue there, yes!
[21:46] I think he didn't fully understand everything until he left the fellowship
[21:46] I think you're reight, Perwing, that's when he really understood what effect the Ring had on all parts of ME.
[21:46] i have to go- buhbye everyone
[21:46] If he knew the full nature of the danger he might have been too scared to go
[21:46] bye, nice talking to you!
[21:47] bye Irena
[21:47] * Quits: Littleirena (pt@80ec8844.vc.5eb2c41d.net.hmsk) (Quit: Leaving)
[21:47] yes
rrupt him already then.
[21:49] I think he could give it up... He was willing to at the Council of Elrond until hee saw what it was doing to everyone
[21:49] and this was several years after he got it, it probably had gre
[21:47] but he didn't want to give it away either, so he HAD to take it himself
[21:48] yes that is important I think Perwing
[21:48] He couldn't give it away!
[21:48] il brb
[21:48] Who would he have given it to though?
[21:48] * Delidiabyebye is now known as Delidia
[21:48] There was noone to give it too!
[21:48] And besides he had alsways wanted to follow Bilbo on his adventures
[21:48] He couldn't give it to Gandalf
[21:48] Bilbo had left many years ago, Gandalf would be the new dark lord...
[21:48] Who else?
[21:48] he tried to give it to gandalf when he first got it, but after that i think he couldn't give it up
[21:49] because there was no one better to give it to
[21:49] yes that is true
[21:49] And perhaps the ring started to corrupt him already then.
[21:49] I think he could give it up... He was willing to at the Council of Elrond until hee saw what it was doing to everyone
[21:49] and this was several years after he got it, it probably had gotten a grip over him then
[21:49] Did he have to travel alone?
[21:49] I dont think it was corrupting him already
[21:50] At Elronds party he was having trouble of letting Bilbo see it.
[21:50] nope, sam with the long ear came with him
[21:50] no he went with Sam and Pippen and later Merry
[21:50] I think that was the way Bilbo wanted to hold it
[21:50] and Strider
[21:50] Yes , but that's because Bilbo went kinda psycho when he wanted to see it
[21:50] yes Val, I agree
[21:50] And Fatty Bolger for a while
[21:50] * Quits: Revo (revoik@f79ddec3.a1.elektron.6ca6b00c.pl.hmsk) (Quit: [DXM] script by SpeedY ver. 4.04 (http://www.dxm.prv.pl))
[21:50] merry and pippin was supposed to stay back at first
[21:50] But that is in future chapters
[21:50] I think he wanted to keep it away from Bilbo
[21:51] to rid Bilbo fully of it
[21:51] * Taz sets mode: +b *!revoik@f79ddec3.a1.elektron.6ca6b00c.pl.hmsk
[21:51] Yes, I agree, he knew it wasn't good for Bilbo
[21:51] I don't think it was because he wanted to rid Bilbo of it, I think it was because the ring had gotten hold over him.
[21:51] him as in Frodo?
[21:51] Because frodo knew that Bilbo would be hurt by even seeing it
[21:51] !
[21:51] The rindg seems to play on its bearer's weaknesses -- frodo delaying his departure was part of that
[21:51] he also wanted it for himself, but this is later in the book folks....
[21:52] yes I never noticed that before Ghan
[21:52] Good point Ghan
[21:52] that's true, Ghan
[21:52] With almost fatal results
[21:52] Yes, it first affects their fears, then their greed for power
[21:53] yes Arwen -- each according to his stature
[21:53] yes, good point Arwen
[21:53] Frodo generally was temped to use it to hide when afraid... the ring would have encouraged him to do that
[21:53] yes, as was Sam later on
[21:53] I'm out...good bye, guys
[21:53] * Quits: chikakat (pt@8c813d53.student.28391d56.edu.hmsk) (Quit: Leaving)
[21:53] Thus exposing him to the Nazgul
[21:54] ok, nice talking to you chika!
[21:54] at that point I think Frodo did not understand the Ring, or else was powerless to it
[21:55] i dont think frodo EVER understood the ring fully
[21:55] Yes, the ring knew he wouldn't use it to do evil, so it had to find another way to make him put it on
[21:55] The power of fear of a Nagul to a hobbit must have been terrible though
[21:55] yes, so in this point of the book we can almost sympathize with them
[21:55] *Nazgul
[21:55] that is a good point Arwen
[21:56] wow, everyone is leaving
[21:56] Even though he didn't know what the Nazgul were, they still terrified him
[21:56] That was their main weapon... fear
[21:56] they terrified everyone with just their precence i think
[21:56] That which we don't know is often more scary than that we know
[21:56] yes, and probably more so when they did not know much about them
[21:57] good one grondmaster!
[21:57] yes Grondy, very true
[21:57] Big people on Black horeses are very scary to wee hobbits
[21:57] Especially for a Hobbit, for whom until then everything had just been a rumour
[21:58] It must have been like one of us being teleported into the story
[21:58] that was the main function of Hobbits in the story I think Val
[21:58] had they known to true nature of the Nazgul they would have been petrified with fear
[21:58] there is great sadness in seeing the innocent Hobbits exposed to the evil of the wider world
[21:59] So do you think that Gandalf was doing him a favour by not telling him before about the Nazgul, if they are more scary when you don't know what they are?
[21:59] yes, and yet it also tells us that there is more to the world than what we know Ghan
[21:59] Which is why Frodo wished to protect the Shire by leaving it
[21:59] Good point Sam
[21:59] gandalf didn't know gollum escaped, so he didn't know the nazgul was coming
[21:59] I don't think so Arwen, and Gildork didn't either but that's later on inthe book
[22:00] Frodo left because he did not want to see hobbits exposed to the evil of the world, as Ghan said
[22:00] oh, k
[22:00] *Gildor
[22:00] What did Sam think about all this?
[22:00] he wanted to go with Frodo wherever he went
[22:00] not much, he just wanted to watch frodo
[22:00] he did not understand the danger he did not understand Frodo
[22:01] watch out for*
[22:01] What about Sam's wanting to see the Elves?
[22:01] Notice that the Hobbit's good intentions in their small world foreshadow the good they will achieve in the wolrd at large
[22:02] he thought the world outside the Shire was beautiful, he didn't think about it's dangfer
[22:02] *danger
[22:02] that's true, I really like that Ghan
[22:02] good on Ghan
[22:02] *one
[22:03] Each character's relationship with the ring is often based on intentions. Compare saruman and gandalf, for example
[22:03] sam never mentions the elves until they are off, and thats next chapter......
[22:03] yes, or knowledge
[22:03] Sam had loved Bilbo's stories... He wanted to see the world though rose tinted glasses
[22:03] I like that Val
[22:04] Yes val
[22:04] I think the hobbits did not know very much about the larger world and so they could not make evil intentions
[22:04] very much at least
[22:04] Yeah, Sam probably thought he was going on a nice scenic trip
[22:05] "'Me go and see Elves and all! Hooray!' he shouted and then he burst into tears."
[22:05] Where he could come home without going too long
[22:05] yep, just saw that in my book, sorry...
[22:05] that was what Frodo thought too in the begining
[22:05] after he sprang up like a dog invited to go on a walk.
[22:05] never trust your head, perwing, NEVER again!!
[22:06] I think they thought they were just going to go to Bree or Rivendell
[22:06] Yeah, back in time for supper...teehee
[22:06] Even Bree would have seemed like the "Big City" to them
[22:06] that is true
[22:07] well, Bree was their first destination. They didnš't knew they were going to Rivendell until after they'd met Strider.
[22:07] didn't*
[22:07] and they did say in rivendell that they had enough adventure and wanted to go home..
[22:07] Yes, they could not comprehend a world even bigger than that
[22:07] they were like the modern reader in that way: expecting to go on lovely adventures and come back safe
[22:08] Only from tales... but you don't get wet, cold and tired in tales
[22:08] no you don't
[22:08] Well, I think that probably wraps it up. Rednell would have done a much better job of it but we all lived through it.
Quote:
Log for class is as follows:
That was about half of it Taz. Did you recover any more?
Yes, we didn't shut down until after 22:05 or 22:10 GMT, so there should be more.

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First, I want to thank Grondy and Val for leading the
class last week.
and doing good as well!!
yw Nell
From all accounts you did a great job!
Actually it's praises to Grondy more than me
I second that -- they did well
Val was there to back me up or keep me in line
Credit's yours Grondy, I just sat back and
watched
but Taz seems to have lost half the transcript
I also wanted some feedback on the amount of the text
we cover each week. At this rate we will have done a very
thorough study, however, it will take 2 years to complete the
trilogy.
* Mellie (Admin@903d3b31.dsl.eulstx.f55b92fc.net.hmsk) has
joined #Bilbos-Study
Hi Mellie
hi Mellie
Welcome Mellie
hi mellie
hello all, sorry i am late
Hi Mellie
* Lady-of-Rohan1 (pt@64-252-123-218.adsl.snet.net) has joined
#Bilbos-Study
fine
wow looks like a full house
im here
welcome Mellie and Lady-of-Rohan1
Ouch
huh
Ghan-buri-Ghan> Hi Lady
Hi Lady
how am i LoR1?
So do we still wish to study the trilogy 1 chapter per
week or start doubling up?
not much. but a little bit
* Lady-of-Rohan1 is now known as LoR
ok
fine
for the later chapters we can double up
nell, as u said one chapter at a time will take ages...
Last week people were jumping ahead quite a lot
anyway
I vote we should double up -- most LOTR
chapters are short
Dudes, its nef
what ever you want to do Nell, I am just along for the
ride
by the way
and no offense
council of Elrond might need two weeks
Yes some need to stand alone, agree there grondy
Has everyone here read the Fellowship of the Ring?
ya
Yep
no
yep
Nay
yes
maybe
* Calenthang is an observer as always
an no actions as usual??
No actions or smilies pleas
and*
lol
Oh sorry
* LoR is now known as Aniwen
as long as it does not matter to the nays, then we
will start doubling up on some of the chapters then.
ok
They make the transcription hard to make
LoR, please don't change your nick so often
OK here
Okay by me
aargggg
Fine Nell
* Aniwen (pt@8d203a46.adsl.2836931f.net.hmsk) Quit (Quit:
Leaving)
good, then that is settled and we will start today's
discussion of Three is Company
We start out this chapter with Gandalf and Frodo
discussing what needs to be done with the Ring.
What has Frodo decided to do?
take the ring to rivendell
save the Shire by leaving
He was going to leave on his 50th birthday
but he wants to delay until the birthday
accompanied by Sam
good. Again Frodo compares his journey with Bilbo's.
What is the contrast?
Gandalf says not any later than then
bilbo went to get a treasure, frodo to get rid of one
Bilbo planned to return with treasure but Frodo
is disposing of it
Bilbo intended coming home, Frodo's not so sure
good
both good points
and on Bilbos last journey he just disappeared
what is similiar about their leaving the shire?
Frodo doesn't want to create such a stir
gandalf is behind it.
there is danger
they sang a song?
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#Bilbos-Study
and what is different about the song they sang?
yes Val, you are right Frodo does not want to create
that big of a stir
that is very true, Mellie and Val. What did Frodo do
on his birthday?
The song Frodo sings is to remind him of Bilbo
A quiet supper
nothing that I can tell right off, about the song
there is actually one word that has been changed in
the song.
"And whither then I can not say."
The super was a quite affair with close friends
Bilbo: Pursuing it with eager feet
Frodo: Pursuing it with weary feet.
Bilbo's is excited and Frodo is not
right
Wow i never noticed
me too
exactly, Mellie!
I must read the songs in future
I thought they were the same
Ditto. But of course, Bilbo did not have the
ring as a burden
That's why Nell is the teacher
very true, he only had the ring on the return journey
* Aniwen is silent.
Because Nell, volunteered for the job
And it seemed such a nice ring back then too
No actions please
and Bilbo was off on an unknown adventure, while
Frodo was off on a dangerous unknown quest
aniwen no actions please
Also, frodo is already aware of the possible
immensity of his task
When Frodo is preparing to leave the shire, he looks
around and notices that the harvest is the best ever, the corn
tall and full, etc. Was Frodo just more aware of the beauty
and abundance in the Shire because of the journey he was about
to undertake?
and bilbo had no idea, just that he was to be a thief
and there was dragon at the end
Most likely...My hometown looked really nice
just before I left too
Gandalf mentions the cracks of Doom as a
possible destination
yes, i think he was very aware because of the type of
journey
I think you start noticing the little things
more when you are going away
Frodo was still in love with the Shire and knew he
was going to miss it, maybe for ever
I think Frodo said something about the pumpkins...
yes, that is true.
My computer is acting very odd, if i disappear that is
why.
Who bought Bag End?
lobelia
Lobelia! LOL
The SB's
the sacksville Baggines
oh the irony of it all.
Wouldn't Bilbo be delighted.
Lobelia and Ortho Sackville-Baggins, finally after
all these years
At least they had to buy it rather than
inheriting
Actually, I think Ortho had died by this time.
yes i thought that was very ironic, and i think bilbo
would have been very up set
Not the last instance in the book where
something that is coveted is hard won
okay Lotho the son then
I think frodo should have given it to Sam's father the
Gaffer
Why did Frodo tell everyone that he was going to move
to Buckland?
Becasue he didn't want to put them in danger
Gaffer wouldn't have known what to do with it;
coulsdn't have afforded the upkeep or taxes
Good cover for his real plan and he came from
there
So that it would be easier for him to sneak away
without causing a stir
so, if the bad people started looking for him, he would
have a chance to get away
it did seem likely, and he didn't want people to know
he was going adventuring as well
a very credible cover.
so he could sneak off unbeknownst
I find we learn a lot about Sam in this chapter.
yes, it was an excellent idea, and he did not want to
put his friends in danger either
When they were getting to leave the Shire, Pippin made
note of Sam's share of the load. What did Pippin think?
Very practical...and a master spy
it was too heavy
Sam took more than his share
That Sam was babying Frodo?
Frodo didn't seem to protest much, however, did he?
Said he would check the loads the next day
that sam was willing to do more than his share and was
very considerate and kind
he did say something about checking the packs later
yes, later....
I think the master servant relationship was well
in place anyway
yes, I think you are right, Val
Sam would naturally have carried some of his
master's load
wanted to be off, and he was upstairs and Sam was
downstairs
I agree Val and it is hard for us to understand
the dynamics
I am not so sure that Pippin recognized it as such,
however.
no to Pippin it was still a lark
To Pippin they were all equals
yes, that is true val, it is something that is
difficult for me to understand a master/servant relationship.
There is another incident in the chapter where Pippin
was annoyed because Frodo went off and did not return with
water.
Something about putting it in his pockets
Bucklanders seem more egalitarian and
self-reliant
I think Pippin was as naive as i am
lol
But remember, Sam and Frodo know what they carry,
Pippin does not know the dangers they may face.
Very true
but frodo just told him to come with him and help
carry the water
I think they have an idea about the ring though
didn't sam rattle him out to merry and pippin?? we get
to know that later
we don't yet know that though Val
They know more than thery are letting on
They know the Ring is magic and made Bilbo disappear
but I think only Sam and Frodo know who the Ring belongs to.
your right Ghan, i never would have thought of that,
but Pippin also had no real clue why Frodo was leaving at that
point. yes we find out later that Pippin knew about the ring,
but he does not understand all that is involved with it yet
True
Pippin wants to rest and stop at taverns and such
I feel that the attitude changes after teh
encounter with the black rider
As they are walking along the road, they hear horse
hoofs. Frodo starts to have a struggle here. What is it?
yes, the attitude did change then. they started
realizeing the dangers.
The ring wants to be worn
he wanted to put the ring on
The ring is calling to the balck rider, trying
to get Frodo to reveal himself
is it the tiger or Gandalf hiding behind that door
probably the ring senses the wraith
and the ring was calling to him
the ring wants to be found
Frodo is missinf Gandalf
yes and it would seem that Frodo sensed that. I
noticed he told Sam and Pippin that perhaps it is Gandalf
sneaking up on them and suggests that they hide to surprise him
maybe it is he riding the horse
But Frodo was quite sure it was not Gandalf.
Frodo is very worried by gandalf's absence
Definitely
yes, and it really scared him
the hairs rising on the back of Frodo's nech tell
him it isn't Gandald
indeed
if gandalf had been there, frodo would not have been as
nervous about the journey.
Get off the road!
he felt certain that he did not want the rider to
discover him.
And only Frodo knows anything of gandalf's true
power
Gandalf was his protector, and Frodo felt very lost
with out him
In a way, I always felt Tolkien was finding
excuses for Gandalf not to be around
how so, Valedhelgwath
how do you mean Val?
just like the three troll incident
As a writer to keep up the suspense
good point.
Indeed
He left Bilbo and the Dwarves and then Frodo
ahhh, ok, never thought about that. very interesting
It seems like a plot contrivance but it is
really the effect of saruman's betrayel, as we later discover
only there to pull the fat out of the fire when
really needed
True, but from a writer's point of view, I think
he needed him out of the way
helps build self-reliance in the others
I agree, Val but he works it into the story
very well
You feel too safe when Gandalf is there
Of course if Gandalf was there to keep danger away,
Frodo would never have taken on the task that was given him.
Yes, he comes up with very good excuses
yes, but at least gandalf was there in the beginning of
the adventure,
with bilbo,
Or the trip to Rivendell would have been a
doddle
Gandalf really plays the role of the historian in FOTR
to point out the way for Frodo too
I think Gandalf perhaps realised this as well
but reading the book for the first time without read
the hobbit, u wouldn't know Gandalf could keep him out of
trouble so easily...
Starting to wonder about so many things is
distracting
true, Perwing.
The story was told as it was ment to be
Istar means "messenger" doesn't it?
and very well too, Calenthang
yes it does
yes, i believe so Calenthang
Gandalf is a facilitator
So Gandaldf is a messenger, not an actor
that would fit Gandalf's role in the first book of the
trilogy.
yes it does, but we doesn't know Gandalf is istari yet
when do we learn that?
The mission of the Istari was to guide rather
than directly influence though
Indeed, per
Showing the path
which explains the lack of involvement of Gandalf at
this point in the story.
Of course, "angel" also means messenger
tnx val, didn't know that
I don't think we really find out Gandalf's
heritage in LotR Mellie
thanks Val,
I think we get a hint when he returns later as
gandalf the white
Yes, but no real details
i do too ghan
so Gandalf is gone and we here the Black riders
horse and get odd the path
il brb
no, and it really isn't important for the telling of
the story, however, it does help understand the full scope of
it.
* Aniwen is now known as Aniwen_brb
Just a hint, though
ok, and a little bit, when we hear about his meeting
with Saurman
which is later in the book.
Maybe you should proceed Rednell
sorry, i am jumping ahead a bit.
Frodo is wooired about Gandalf's disapearance as
is Gildor
The question is if the Ring is trying to bring
attention to Frodo, then what is giving Frodo the warning in
his heart that he should hide, before he even saw the black
rider?
At times it's difficult to hold yourself back
i think he just senses danger, but doesn't know what
it is
The ring
I think Gandalf had given Frodo warning about
the Nine
His common sense or Eru
Can we assume an animate force of good, just as
the ring is (nearly) animate evil?
The ring has a mind of it's own and maybe Frodo can
sense it
* Littleirena (pt@80ec8844.vc.5eb2c41d.net.hmsk) has joined
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could be any of those. Frodo certainly did know that
there was danger lurking out there.
Hi Irina
hullo
Maybe the ring was heightening his senses, and
he had been prewarned too
yes val, but neither val nor frodo thinks the nine are
after the ring yet
What happens the next time they meet a black rider?
val=gandalf, sorry
Easy mistake Perwing
They are saved by the presence of teh Elves
they hear it snuffling
smelling after them
I liked that sound in the movie!!!
Sorry for the distraction
it was spooky Calenthang
yes, Frodo says that the black rider was crawling
towards him when the voices of the Elves scared it off.
Notice how the black rders behave in a very
animalistic way
Aye,it was
good point Ghan, why do you think Tolkien did that?
It's main sense is smell, so it would be
sniffinght e ground for a trail
this part of the book scared me
It's more like sniffing for the ring
Don't you think
?
Our perception of the riders changes as we get
to know more about them. At Bree and Amon Sul they have grown
in stature
They definitely become more frightening.
the unknown is almost always scaryier than the
known
Seeing them as dangerous animals is a very
Shire-style way of looking at them
I wonder if the animalistic behaviour is indicative of
the loss of their free will when they were taken by the Dark
Lord?
I agree
in the beginning they are more like dogs or wolves,
than men.
I agree there, Nell. they have little humanity
left
Or maybe none
Maybe the way a being without a body moves too
besides that is wasn't yet dark was it?
no it was not yet dark Grondy.
they were more powerful in the dark
a lot more powerful
They were?
Yes, grondy
Yes, darkness was their ally
I never knew that
Most creations of Morgoth and Sauron could not
stand the sun
yes, as were the Orcs
so maybe their eyesight wasn't as good in the
daylight and so they had tomuse their sense of smell
Back to the appearance of the Elves.
that is an excellent point grondy,
They were Blind, Grondy
ok, elves
More than just good luck, in the circumstances
They only had their sense of smell
thought they are scared of water
right?
yes, they were
all exept the king
The Elves had been told to watch for frodo?
yes they did not like water Littleirena
Most evil things were scared of water due to Ulmo
ahh
I don't think so G-b-G
they had been told he would come, i don't remember
they had been told to watch out for him.
that's true, Val, but i forget about Ulmo, when talking
about Lotr. but that makes sense.
At this point in the story, it appears to be just by
chance that the Elves meet the Hobbits.
another coincidence
Frodo does make the remark" This is indeed a strange
chance"
What is Sam
's reaction to the Elves?
and sam was so excited about seeing the elves
Wonder
Sam was awestruck
Well since he always wanted to meet them....
he's astonished, finally he get's to see the elves
oboy! O bOy! Elves Sir
He is incredibly excited
Was he disappointed?
no...
not in the least
Speachless
What about Pippin?
Just sleepy
he was more cool about it, "so they're elves, i want
food and sleep!"
"eh, so what?"
yeah, I got that impression too.
But they must have made him feel safe to go from
being afraid to thinking more about sleep
true, good point
I don't think Pippin had a lot of problems with
sleeping.
Remember Pippin has not had the benefit of
stories fromBilbo and gandalf
so his perception is limited by his knowledge
Although, he certainly enjoyed the bread
Lembas was it?
Plus Piipin is a Took... he's perhaps seen elves
before
oh, I think he had Bilbo's stories , just didn't
put too much store in them
that is a possiblilty I never considered.
hmmm, interesting Val, do you really think that Pippin
could have seen elves before?
he is still a tweenager after all
The Tooks got about a lot more than other Hobbits
I like Val's idea -- even Tom knew of the
Bucklanders
yes that is true,
hmmm, this is very interesting
And elves were known in the shire to pass west
And they are still in the Shire and there were Hobbits
who saw the Elves going West
Hobbits did see them
All this talking about Elves makes me feel nice!
It's so mystic
Who was the Elf that met the Hobbits?
They are the real good guys in LotR
gildor
Gildor
but Elves were not important to most in the Shire
Of the house of Finrod....real good guys
How did Frodo greet them?
Gildor Inglorion of the house of finrod
Elen sila lumen omentielvo
They didn't bother in either's affairs so thre
wasn't and danger from them
*
which means, Calenthang?
A star shines upon the hour of our meeting
How did Gildor react to this?
he said they didn't need any company but their own
He was pleased to meet a Hobbit who spoke
Quenya?
Thats right Ghan
Sindarin actually
Indeed he was quite impressed.
Good point, Cal
Thank you
that was later then
I am assuming it was Quenya since Gildor refers to it
as the ancient tongue
he told the other elves to be careful, and speak no
secrets because here is a scholar in the ancient gongue
tongue*
OMG
Me too -- but i think Cal is right. the phrase
was first used in a famous battle of the first(?) age
Rednell you are right
I am sorry Ghan
but they would normally talk toi the hobbits in
westron
but then since they were woodelves then Sindarin would
be their language wouldn't it?
They were Noldor
they were high elves
Or at least Gildor was
oh were they?
so I think they were talking in Sidarin
noldor
Yes they said they were Exiles (=Noldor)
yep ghan
Gildor was of the house of finrod
that is right, I remember reading that now.
But can anyone remember who first said elen
sila lumenn' omentielvo?
Frodo I think!
Frodo said that
no one in ch 3 in lotr exept frodo... Smile Smilie
yes, it was Frodo
* Ghan-buri-Ghan (pt@d437675f.telkom-ipnet.14056081.za.hmsk)
Quit (Quit: Leaving)
I found the exchange between Frodo and Gildor
interesting. Why is Gildor being so elusive and not reveal
what he knows about the black riders.
because it was not a safe place to discuss it?
he doesn't think it's his "responsibility" to tell
so as not to scare them even more, especially as
Gandalf hadn't told them more
Perwing, now that sounds very Elvish
Heh
Perwing has it right!
* Littleirena (pt@80ec8844.vc.5eb2c41d.net.hmsk) Quit (Quit:
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i'm getting into characher...
very good perwing
I don't know Grondy, he was making them sound pretty
dangerous.
I think Gildor has an idea that Frodo is being
persude
That is a very good point, Val.
He also knows there are riders ahead and behind
them
Oh yes, Gildor knows what they are
Would Frodo have continued if he really knew what lied
ahead?
I think he would
probably he would, he didn't wanna take the ring back
to the shire
not sure, but i would like to think so
but it isn't his job to take part, he is a
messenger
The futer of Middle-earth depends on it
I think he knew he had to...he knew they would
find him in the Shire
He didn't have a choice actually
that makes rivendell and gandalf's advise his target
for the journey
This is very early in the journey. I wonder if he
would have had Gildor told him what the Black Riders really
were and what they were capable of.
Sam has told him about the one he heard at the
Gaffer's by then
Gildor will tell him nothing that Gandalf has
not already mentioned though
yes, but they had already seen the Black Rider by that
time.
Gildor was protecting Frodo from the whole truth
he tried to make gildor tell him, but gildor refused
so frodo shouldn't get too scared and call off the whole
journay
Do you get the impression that this annoyed Frodo?
I think Frodo felt he was being kept in the dark
not really, what annoyed both frodo and gildor was
that gandalf hadn't shown up yet
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I think it concerned them that Gandalf hasn't arrived
he was more disappointed than annoyed i think
worried more than anything...the news worried
Gildor too
i agree with Val, it was more concern than anything
But Gildor tries to brush it off: "Do not meddle in
teh affairs of Wizards, for they are suble and quick to anger."
Go not to the elves for advice for they say both
yes and no
gildor gave him an advise in the end though, to travel
soon and as fast as he could
what did Frodo ask for?
And to take friends with him
right val
Did he gave a horse to Frodo?
He wanted to know what the riders were
Or I am mistaken....
where he could find courage
No horse
yes, courage
Thank you Grondmaster
And Gildor replies with something we will hear again.
"Courage is found in unlikely places"
Courage is found in unlikely places
Gildor makes a promise as well.
To send out messengers
yep
"now i'll sleep" end of chapter!
The Wandering Companies shall know of your journey.
Gildor seems to have accepted that a Hobbit will be
the best hope for Middle Earth.
And so too will the Nazgul if they capture a
messenger...a bit dodgy I thought
Goldor also named Frodo: Elf-friend
oh, but we know the Valar are watching over the
Ringbearer.
do we??
Gildor said it was more than chance their meeting
Frodo also felt it was more than chance. Not to
mention the "sense" that told Frodo to hide from the
approaching rider.
Several constellations came into the sky at
their meeting too
right
yes, but at this point we don't know anything about the
Valor
6th sense?
i have that too...
but then again, i have the ring also... lool
Yes, Val and the elves are singing to Varda as
well
we don't need to Mellie.
May Elbereth protect you
you are correct, and i forgot about Elbereth
Elbereth was Varda
who created the stars
To watch over the Children in the darkness
but do the elves singing Elbereth's praise tell us the
Valar's are watching over Frodo???
ur loosing me here...
not directly, Perwing.
It could imply that, without making it
definitive
They just say, may Elbereth watch over you
That is why we are discussing the book chapter by
chapter, so we can dig deeper
hvorfor ikke lyd?
which is a blessing as such
sorry, wrong window
Yes, Grondy, its a standard blessing, but the
name had power over the Nine as well
They would flee from someone calling it
Next week we will discuss Shortcut to Mushrooms and
The Old Forest, which will take us to the meeting of Tom
Bombadil
Never heard of him
?
what I meant was Gildor was giving them his
blessing for their journey
lol
Even I have heard of him
certainly the Black Rider fled at the coming of the
Elves
Yes, I see that Grondy
I knew you did Val
If the elves were from Valinor, they would have
the light of the trees which the nine would fear
No, Gildor knew Frodo was going to be very important
in the conquering of evil.
the inate light of the trees
Aaahhh the trees
Gildor probably didn't know until AFTER he talked to
Frodo though
"My heart forbodes that, ere all is ended, you, Frogo,
son of Drogo, will know more of these fell things than Gildor
Inglorion. May Elbereth protect you."
he knew as he was talking to Frodo
I think he knew a Hobbit carried something of great
importance, and it wasn't until he had talked to Frodo that he
knew who the Hobbit was.
I don't think he knew of the ring, just that The
Black riders wouldn't be after him for just any old reason
He'd learned much from Bilbo too
Probably more than Bilbo realised he had told him
yes he said he had met Bilbo in that very spot as
Bilbo was leaving the Shire
And the Rangers had been guarding the Shire for
years too
but Bilbo didn't know the significance of the Ring.
I don't think Goldor knew ahead of time that a
hobbit would be carrying a great burden until after he met
Frodo
I must go, I'm at work in 5 hrs
bye Val.
G'nite Val
Thanks, see you later
bye val
OK Val take care
cheers all
bye Val
I am in school in 6 hours
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G'nite Cal
Good night all
Good class Nell, are we done?
Shall we retire to the other room?

End of #bilbos-study buffer Sun Feb 16 18:58:14 2003
That sounds like a great class, I wish I could have been there.
And thank you Grondy and Val for the wonderful class last week, it was one of the best yet in my opinion. Thumbs Up Smilie Big Smile Smilie
I'm sorry folks, but I cannot make this one (even though you are in session as I write this). I will be away at sea for most of next week and need to get caught up with the Reading Discussion Group (as well as the rest of the forum) before I go away.

I look forward to reading the transcript though. My thoughts are in there with you.
Our next class at 9 PM GMT on Sunday 23 FEB 2003 should cover A Shortcut to Mushrooms and if time is available A Conspiiracy Unmasked.

[Edited on 23/2/2003 by Grondmaster]
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hi Perwing
hi again nell
Smile Smilie
will u do one or two chapters today?
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hey cal
Good evening all
good evening
hi Calenthang, are you feeling any better?
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Now I do
Smile Smilie
hi cano
hi, my first Bilbo session
Well be sure to have fun
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good
No use of actions,remember
!
no smiles
okay, I'll remember that
KK
hi, sorry i'm late i was lunchin'
hi Arwen
Cause I always forget
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hi Grondy
Yo Nell and all
Hi Red. Cano, Asteroth, Per Grondy, and Cale
Well met Arwen
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hi Bethrezen

ok, we will be discussing chapters IV and V of
Fellowship of the Ring. Shortcut to Mushrooms and Conspiracy
unmasked
Shall we begin?
Yes
We start out the morning after the Hobbits meet the
Elves
They left us breakfast
They resume their journey to where?
Crickhollow
correct
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Prince you are late young man!
did anyone else notice that Frodo seemed irritated by
Pippin's questions?
Sit down and be quiet
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Ok
joking
Sam?
i think you right red
anyway, did Frodo seem irritated>
I think Frodo as still bent out of shape because
Gildor hadn't answered his questions
(......) i think there is something else behide
yes, I think you are right, Grondy. This must really
be preying on Frodo's mind.
i think he starts to have uneasy feelings
He seemed more anxious than irritated
Anxious is probably a better choice of words.
actually i have to desagree he yells at pippin to leave
him alone
now he was on the road and hunted, his adventure
no longer felt like a lark
yes, but perhaps being anxious causes him to seem
irritated
yes... that too
I am not so sure it was ever a lark for Frodo.
for Pippin, perhaps.
besides now that he was awake he needed to think
In fact Frodo seems very concerned about taking his
friends on this journey.
Pippin's questions were not conducive to thinking
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Why do you think Frodo is concerned about his
companions now and not when he left Bagend.
Black Riders?
when he left bag end he didn't intend on bringing
pippin and merry
everything became real to him after the Nazgul
experience
yes, they certainly put a whole new twist on the
quest, didn't they?
Perhaps he was sensing
*
Aye,they did
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the danger now was real rather than amorphus
When Frodo was comtemplating his decisions, Sam seemed
to sense what he was thinking. What did Sam say?
which decisions are we talking about
i think we are talking about the point where frodo
doesn't want to take sam pippin and merry along
whether it was right of him to expect his friends to
go along on this quest
that is correct, Arwen
Gildor said not to go alone, but to take them who
would go with him
that's one thing i got in my whole life
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Sam seem to sense what Frodo was thinking and
responded to Frodo's thoughts.
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Sam told Frodo that Gildor told him not to leave Frodo.
this is probably the first point where we see how much
frodo really cares abot merry and pippin but especially sam,
it sounds alomost like he knows how bad this could get
and of course Sam said that he never meant to.
good point Arwen
Sam wasn't asleep when Frodo thought he had been
yep....
What kind of change did Frodo notice came over Sam
after their encounter with the Elves?
Sam was more thoughtful after the Elves
i think you can almost see sam realize that he is such a
small part of the whole picture
yes
like the world became real to Sam
and not just stories
that's true Cano
that is a good point, almost like wisdom
i agree
Sam also noticed something about himself after the
encounter, what was it?
yeah a lot more wisdom than when he said "me go and see
Elves and all. Horray"
definitely, Arwen
i think that sam starts understanding that it will not
end with giving the ring to someone else
he feels that this will take them where nobosy dared to
go before
but he wants to go
Sam notes that he seems to see ahead in a kind of way.
"I have something to do before the end and it lies ahead not
in the Shire."
Excellent point Arwen!
because he loves his master as a brother
thanks
very well put Arwen
he also realizes that things always arent what
you expect
he almost seems wiser than frodo in that very sentence
when he says about the dark jurney
There seems to have been a real growth of character in
Sam after the encounter with the elves.
immediate grow, definately
something very unexpected i would say cause i used to
pic. him as a small little gardener
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Perhaps in a sense he is Arwen. There will be times
that Frodo will lose his wisdom and sense of direction and now
Sam has been "suited up" for the journey
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What a suddent chenge for short period of time!
change*
well we have to remeber tat sam will always be a lot
more fit for the whole thing than frodo
because frodo is a noble kind of person
the only place he had been was his garden
Sam now knows he has a mission, still unknown, to
accomplish before he can return to the Shire
Not something he knew or sensed when he left the
Shire, however, Grondy.
on the other hand even if sam wasn't as educated he had
more of a rogh life exipience know what i mean?
it is almost like Sam has ESP about the journey
something like that Cano
yeah
yes Cano
he could see hard times, but didnt know exactely
what
No, he sensed that after his meeting with the elves
but he already knew what to do, stick and protec frodo
as well as he could
but remember this all came after meeting the Elves.
Remember what he was like before they met the Elves.
"me go and see elves and all horray" red?
I don't think he knew that he had to protect Frodo,
just accompany him
he was more naive before he met the Elves
most definitely, Sam
The Elves said, "Don't you leave him!"
Naive is right!
But so did Gandalf, Grondy. Why would this be any
different?
well Elves said it....
maybe because his dream was to see the elves
Yes Arwen
and he wold have cherished everything they would have
said forever
That was my point too
that is an interesting point.
it was a command because they knew what the Black
Riders were, and sensed Frodo couldn't do it on his own
yes I like that Arwen
I think the elves just reinforced what Gandalf had to
say. and then after the Black Riders and the elves Sam really
realized all of the dangers
I think a command would definitely have more impact
sam had really high thoughs about the elves, and he
didn't then know how powerful gandalf really was
that's true
but he didn't so the only thing that really bound him to
those words was the incredible desire to know and meet the
elves and see what they are like, supreme beings, and charish
anything they could have taught him.
good point Arwen
Arwen is on a roll tonight
ohh yeah!
i'm all around excited this is my favorite part1
!*
As the Hobbits set out again, how does Tolkien use the
physical setting to set the mood?
he says that they are late
putting pressure on the characters
sun is shining, everything looks peaceful for a
bit...
espacially frodo and sam the only two who know or kind
of realize what they are getting themsleves mixed up with
The leaves loew upwards in sudden gusts of wind and
spots of rain began to fall from the overcast sky. Then the
wind died away and teh rain came streaming down."
pippin and merry for now are still only a comic relief
merry shows them the way through the Old Forest
it is his first time 'doing something;
loew=blow
Ahh the old forest
Merry isn't there
yeah
oh sorry
you are getting ahead of the story
This is the point where Pippin disagrees with Frodo's
choice of path.
tsz tsz tsz
the weather is very dreary, and Frodo is moody and
irritated.
Well that's because he is trying to keep them safe
And away from the Black Riders
Pippin hopes to visit the Golden Perch for the beer
Then they hear a cry...
Frodo does have a lot to be moody about
the weather matches Fodo's mood
PIppin = comic relief
good point cano
yes i noticed that too Cano
It seemed that way, Cano
yes Cano
When the sun comes out, does Frodo's mood change at
all?
At least he was more civil with Pippin, joining in the
song.
Where do they end up when they come out of the woods?
bycckeberry acvross the river
buckleberry*
not yet
?
Tom Bombadilo's house?
sorry, yes, Arwen
This might be VERY wrong
turnip field
close Bucklebury, too far south
whose turnip field?
Farmer Maggot's fiilds
How did Frodo feel about this?
ooh yeah
scared
why?
Gang, Grip and Wold
Fang*
for starters, yes.
Wolf*
he did not have fond memories of Farmer Maggot
why was that Sam?
he had been stealing mushrooms from maggot's field
when he was younger
because Frodo stole mushrooms from him
and Maggot did not like that. frodo was afraid maggot
would set the dogs on him
What kind of a reception do they receive from Farmer
Maggot?
Maggot told his dogs they could eat Frodo next
time they saw him
well i never thoght maggot was a bad person even if
tolkien makes him sound like that
i mean
how wold you feel if i came and stole the food you took
time and work to grow?
Actually, Arwen, I don't think Maggot was mean at all
in this chapter.
stealing Mushrooms isn't a nice thing to do
Obviously he didn't hold a grudge.
Farmer Maggot was nice to them in this chapter
i know but still
maggot was a typical next door neighbor, nice
when youre nice, mean whenyou're mean
What kind of stories did Maggot have to tell the young
Hobbits?
I don't think maggot was serious before (about setting the
dogs on him) but Frodo didn't understand
exactly Sam
hmmm
but still it depends on how you read the book
who's character you identify with
Maggot told them he'd seen a Black Rider
of course it does Arwen
he told them there had been a black rider there,
asking for frodo
if you think on frodo's side like i do you see the guy
as a mean person before he was nice to them
Of course Maggot was just trying to make a point
to Frodo, to stop his stealing. Probably would have given him
mushrooms had he asked
Arwen, you are referring to the perspective of a
Hobbit child who had been stealing from a local farmer.
I agree, Grondy
hey, i'm 14! i am supposed to see all adults as
mean!heheh
yes Grondy I agree
What about the stories that Farmer Maggot told Frodo,
Sam, and Pippin?
yes there is that perspective Arwen
Who had visited Maggot?
he told them there had been a black rider
there, asking for frodo
good Perwing.
about the stranger who offered him gold for word
of Baghgins?
What was his theory about this stranger?
baggins?
Baggins is coming
he was a weirdo?
after Bilbo's treasure
that he was bad news.
maggot didn't like the black rider
He is a very shrewd fellow indeed. How close to the
mark was he?
he was partly right about the treasure
very
too close?
only the treasure was not money but the Ring
yes, I think Frodo must have been doing some squirming
at this point.
well bilbo's greatest treasure is The Ring, soooo...
yes me too
but of course Maggot didn't know about the ring
i've always seen Frodo as Bilbo's biggest tresure
Frodo might have been worried about who he could trust
and then frodo has the ring therefore togther they are
the biggest tresure
very good Arwen
so Frodo was just feeling this
yes I think that too Arwen. Frodo was his biggest
treasure, and yet he longed for the Ring
I love the way Tolkien maintains the aura of suspense
when Farmer Maggot takes them down the road to meet Merry. How
does he do this?
because if the nazgul would have found frodo he would
have killed him taking both of the tresures awayfrom bilbo
very good analogy, Arwen.
yes Arwen
thanks!
in his wagon with the lanterns unlit so it is dark
in the wagon
yes it is dark and there is a heavy mist.
Now that is very creepy.
Merry had a hood so did the Black Riders
darkness represents the evil of sauron in the book
and they hear hore hoofs in the dark
everytime that it is dark something happens
horse*
yes, so our Hobbits would now be feeling fear in their
hearts.
and in Mordor it is night at all times
therefore i would say that darkness is bad
there wring wraiths are dark
evil is dark
elves are white
and glowing
darkness hides the unknown
that is all that makes it scarey
After all that, I love the ending of this chapter. It
ends on a lighter note with Frodo receiving a basket of
mushrooms from the Maggots.
very true gorndy
yes, i liked that ending to the chapter too.
Not only did it make Frodo smile, it made me smile too.
it ends with hobbits thinking about food
it actually made Frodo laugh
Very good observation, Sam
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do you wish to go on to the next chapter?
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Do mushrooms have an aroma?
a very earthy aroma, actually.
tolkien seemed to think so...
i believe so
i don't mind going on to the next chapter.
Conspiracy Unmasked.
anyone else want to continue?
What was the conspiracy?
i know so, my grandpa has a whole bunch every time i go
that's up to you Nell, I'm willing
then we shall continue
ok
What was the conspiracy unmasked?
that all the hobbits knew about frodo's trip, cause
sam had told them
brb, mommy wants me you can go on i'll catch up later
That Merry and Pippin knew Frodo and Sam were
planning on leaving the Shire
Sam served as a spy I think, Perwing, so I think they
knew something was up before Sam told them he was leaving.
That they had a spy network set up to watch Frodo
What did the conversation with Farmer Maggot confirm?
Pippen actually asked Frodo how close Farmer Maggot
was to the truth.
How did Merry know about the Ring?
That it had to do with the Bilbos treasure
he saw Bilbo with it
when, Sam?
a long time ago he saw Bilbo disapear
hiding from whom?
L. S-B, I think
yep, those be the ones
Now that Frodo knew about the conspiracy, do you think
he was relieved?
Merry also sneaked a look in Bilbo's book
this is true, Grondy.
Not at first, for he thought they meant to keep
him from going
hey i'm back what are we talking about now?
there was a matter of trust...
and they had kept the matter of the ring secret
I think he was
yes he say, it does not seem that i can trust anyone.
I really like Merry's response. It shows true
friendship.
but Merry relplies that it all depends on what you want
yes so do I Nell
'you can trust us to stick to you through thick and
thin to the bittter end. and you can trust us to keep any
secret of yours - closer than you keep it yourself
it shows how loyal Merry and Pippen are even though they
don't understand it
i got to go, bye
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but you cannot trust us to let you face trouble alone,
and go off without a word.
You can trust us to stick to you through thick and
thin - to the bitter end. And you can trust us to keep any
secret of yours - closer than you keep it yourself. But you
cannot trust us to let you face trouble alone, and go off
without a word. We are your friends, Frodo.
I think this says it all when it comes to defining
friendship.
yes. it is very nice to have friends like that.
Yep
it shows Frodo that he doesn't have to be alone
i think frodo is very relieved after that little speach.
This chapter really defines the friendship that will
prove to be the strength of the Fellowship over and over
again.
A friend in need is a friend indeed
and so ends this weeks class.
Thank you Rednell is was wonderful...as always
ohhh.....
Yes, he has friends with which to share part of
the burden, but not that of the ring
Next week we will cover the next three chapters. That
will take us to The Prancing Pony.
yep
3?
wow, that was a short chapter.
great class nell
i thought 2 was a long way...
anyway
3? wow. ok
i guess i will get used to it now that i found some time
to come
thank you Rednell, the class was wonderful
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These 3 are the chapters that deal with Tom Bombadil.
It is easier to do it all at once
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Shall we retire to the other room?
ahhh ok that makes sense
yes lets
Wink Smilie
Taz way late....
hehehehe
ok
ok
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End of #Bilbos-Study buffer Sun Feb 23 18:21:25 2003
Our next class at 9 PM GMT on Sunday 03 MAR 2003 should cover the next three chapters: The Old Forest, In the House of Tom Bombadil, and Fog on the Barrow-Downs, if we have time avaiable to get through it all.

Rednell here: I suggest that you might find it interesting to read the logs from week 10 on Tom Bombadil and week 14 on Barrow-wights. Since both these topics have been covered we will only lite on them Sunday evening.
See you in bilbos-study.


[Edited on 1/3/2003 by Rednell]
Thanks for the last class Nell, it was wonderful as usual! I look forward to tomorrow's class. Big Smile Smilie

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hi nell, funny meeting u here... Smile Smilie
imagine that, Perwing
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welcome Sideshow_Bob
hello
just waiting for the others to arrive
k
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hi Grondmaster.
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Lo Nell, Taz, Perwing, and S_B
hi
hello
hi Taz
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ahahahah!
o sry
welcome Delidia
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Hi all
hi Val
Lo Val
hi Valedhelgwath
hello Val
What is our topic for today?
well, before we begin, I just want to mention that
there are to be no actions in this chat
Going to have to blag it again, I'm afraid Nell.
Haven't had time to read anything
This is an example of an action:
* Rednell is speaking
i know
WE are going to study the part that PJ left out of
the first movie
the old forest?
This week we are going on to the next 3 chapters in
FOTR, The Old forest, In the House of Tom Bombadil and Fog on
the Barrow-downs
yep, cause WE are good little tokienites... hihi
yes
i missed Tom in the movies
he was just so cool
ok
ok, we are discussing the book
ok
shall we begin?
yes
As the hobbits prepare to leave Critchhollow how does
the weather affect the mood?
plrase
It was very early in the morning and the sun was
definitely not shining
gloomy
They mounted and soon they were riding off into the
mist, which seemed to open relunctantly before them and closed
forbiddenly behind them.
I think it makes the prospect of the Old Forest
a little more scary for them
yes, it certainly wouldn't make it inviting
it was also foggy
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And the old forest was known to be scary
true, Grondy
what makes the Old Forest scary?
where trees swallow up little hobbits
The trees
all the scary stories they have heard about it
Tolkien uses a lot of words like, damp, wet,
slimy etc here
that too
what has been said in these stories?
they have been known to move
yes
and reach out for you
that the trees can move and people has vanished in
there
at night they seem to talk to one another.
ya. whisper to each other
Do they perceive these trees to be friendly?
not at all
nope
What event took place that may account for the
unfriendly trees?
The trees seem unhappy to have been burned in
the bonfire glade
yes, that would be it, I think
Old Man Willow swallowed up Merry, Pippin and Sam?
oo
yep, the trees "attacked" some years ago, and the
hobbits sat fire to the forest
yea
i remember that
just merry & pippin, no?
I don't think it was an actual attack
Just like Frodo said(I think)It's like this forest
has a mind of it's own
I think the forest was growing close so it was
cut back and burned
yes, I think that would be a more logical
explaination, Valedhelgwath
Afterwards though, the trees seemed unhappy at
this happening
yes they were definitely not happy.
goblins and wolves
they said there were goblins and wolves in the forest
How did the hobbits feel while passing through the Old
Forest?
scared
very uneasy
for sure. Frodo tried to sing a song to encourage the
others but could barely keep his voice above a whisper.
untrustworthy in a sort
ya
at the word 'fail" he stopped
Then there seemed to be a spell come over the Hobbits.
keep his voice above a whisper-I like this one
yea they are feeling sleepy
What was happening?
The trees seemed to begin dropping branches and
closing in at this stage
then they saw an opening
yes, they did and the path appeared to have moved
They wer guiding the hobbits towards Old man
Willow
im getting ahead
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good job Dar
thanks
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The path kept sending them toward the river in the
direction they didn't want to go
hello Mellie
correct Grondmaster.
hi
The Withywindle valley
The queerest part of the forest
They wanted to go North but were forced to go South.
that was how they met Tom Bombadil
They became very sleepy. This seems like a spell of
some sort.
Only after Old Man Willow
yea
I found it interesting that Sam seemed to be the only
one to keep his head in all this. Could this be from his
encounter with the Elves?
Maybe some odour that the willow was releasing
was sending them to sllep like a drug
the afternooon was becoming warm
Sam could make out the trees singing
it was Old Man Willow who was like singing in their
head about sleeping, and they all felt tired
"There's more behind this than sun and warm air" he
muttered
and he trapped the hobbits.
I think sam was always more on edge than the
others too
well he had to be.
why, Darous?
Less relaxed, and so less likely to fall victim
to the spell
to set him up to journey with frodo
Sam hadn't been adventuring before
no but he was loyal to Frodo.
but sam was more "down to earth" than the other hobbits
yes
very loyal
that's why he didn't fall under spells so easily
Gandalfctold him not too let Frodo out of his sight
bbl
that is interesting. Would Sam have a better
connection with the earth since he is a gardener and more
attuned to the song the trees were singing?
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He could be since he knows the plants
hmm
That's possible
its a possibility
and looks after them.
more in tune
excellent possibility
with the earth than Merry and Pippin and Frodo
and the plants could talk to each other and say that
sam is good.
yep, and he would also not care too much for the
so-called bigger things in the world, he just thought it was
weird when everybody got tired and he heard the trees singing
about sleeping
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How do Sam and Frodo try to free Merry and Pippin?
hi Sam
first they try to light a fire
they tried first to start a fire. lol
Kicks the tree
they try to cut the tree
Pull them out
to get Pippin out
then tom comes along
just about everything and it just kept getting worse.
then frodo calls for help
Sam tries to frighten it with fire
right, Delidia. and who came to the rescue
THen Tom comes
Tom
and Tom is singing
yes
his wood song, im guessing
Hey doll, merry dol
Now I want to know what your first impressions were
when you first met Tom Bombadil in this chapter.
he talks about Goldberry
i thought he was a freak!
a bumpkin
i thought he was weird
i thought he was strange, but interesting
ya
Hey dol!merry doll!ring a dong dillo.
I liked him
that too
yes indeed
I thought he was a fairy type spirit
why did you like him , Sam?
but after we met him, he got better
i thought he seemed very cheerful
I didn't like all the singing first time around
What made you think he was a fairy type spirit,
Valedhelgwath?
what his singing.
because he was so free and unlike anyone else in the book
so far Nell
he was very...
loud
certainly seemed carefree, Sam
Because before LotR I had had little experience
of these type of things... I thought something like Jack in
the Green
People i talked to thought he was a bit queer.
free spirited. kind of like a person who doesnt think
what about what anyone else thinks
yea
like you Dar
lol
I think I thought of him as a fairy type creature as
well, when he was able to make the tree give up Pippin and
Merry.
But he had an understanding with the trees
which was, Darous?
hes had dealings with them before
I thought of Goldberry as more fairy-like than Tom
yea
Well from what I got from it
hmmm, guess Val is not going to answer you. Nell
yes he did, Mellie
When I say fairy-like, I mean that enchanted
Midsummer Night's Dream sort of thing, not just the little
white things with wings
he was a watcher of the trees making sure that nithing
happened in and around his household.
yes I know
sorry, my computer is being wierd
its ok
But making sure the trees played rfair as such.
That is what I was thinking of as well, Valedhelgwath.
although Tolkien probably would not appreciate that particular
reference.
lol
No, but at the time it was one of my only
experiences into fantasy
no he would not
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Do you think the hobbits are feeling relieved at this
point or more nervous about where their adventure is going to
lead them next?
a mixture of both
pure relief
I think there is something about Tom that drives away
their nervousness
I have to agree. When I was reading this I even felt
relief
I think they feel relieved that someone is there
to help them
Like lost children being found by an adult
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they arent going ot be food for the trees
this was another of Tolkiens devices: scary, calm,
scary, calm
Was it just coincidence that Tom was there to help
them?
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I am sorry about that
excellent point Grondmaster.
Frodo was calling for help
He'd know everything that was occurring in the
forest
I believe he mentions to Frodo that he was expecting
them.
Do you mean deeper than that though, Nell. A
device of Eru
He had heard from Gildor the Elf?
yes, Gildor is who I had in mind, however, I wonder if
the Elves would wander in the Old Forest
Elves wouldnt be tricked by trees
Some might those who knew of Tom.
tricky trees
but still trees
I see the Old Forest in a similar way to
Fangorn... Elves didn't go there much either
he might have had good hearing...
lol
the trees wouldn't try to harm the elves
he was very perceptive of his surroundings is what I mean
Elves r weary.
perhaps, we do know that Gandalf had visited Tom in
the Old Forest at one time.
Reaquainting himself probably
But Elves a keepers of the woods
Why would they fear the trees?
are*
They'd have a lot less to fear Cal
that is a good point, Calenthang. The trees certainly
would have nothing to fear from the elves
Cause the trees r old
That was my point...
The Old Forest trees have started brooding
however. They may react strangely
jeez
true. But Tom certainly had no problem
He was master of the forest
That is true, Valedhelgwath
definetly
I think the forest and Tom were one with each
other
If he could make Old Man Willow control himself,
Tom could control any of the trees
Well
Tom could not exist without it and the forest
would have no spirit without him
Since he was there first
what about the Ents?
well, the Ents come later in the story.
the ents control the forest
sheperds of the trees
they guard it
Not the old forest though
I know but could he control them?
So we will probably have a different perspective on
them by that point
Tom was doing the same job of the Ents and then
some
Well
yes, The Old Forest was Tom's playground.
so Tom is another form of a sheperd
sort of
I think Tom may have been a similar spirit to
those who initially became ents
but Tom was happier
More powerful though
much happier
could he be similar to treebeard in a way then?
the ents were sad
Tom was alone so I think that was why he was happier Del
Tom was happy-go-lucky
no entwives
and Tom did have Goldberry
Tom seems to know a lot about Frodo. He had to get his
information from somewhere.
yes
you're right I forgot that momentarily Grondy..
yes
maybe hes a mind-reader
I think Gandalf, because Gandalf did say he had spoken to
him once
hes well informed
I think some of the Tooks knew Tom
He'd have perhaps got information from them
a possiability
Tom used to stop in for a drink at one of the
villages near Marish
yes that's true Val
so would that mean that the Tooks travel in the old
forest to get to him? or does tom travel ther
there*
i thought tom never got out of the forest???
But that's not in this story
Tom left the forest occasionally
but how would the tooks know about the ring?
ah...
hm..
good question
Frodo willing gave more information to Tom than he did
to Gildor. It would seem as if Frodo trusted Tom more.
Tom opened himself more to Frodo than Gildor had
I don't thionk Tom knew about the ring, just that
Frodo was in trouble
He felt safe in Tom's home
perhaps because Tom made clear that he would not be
involved w/ the quest
He had a good night sleep their.
Gildor was more involved with the war
his house and Goldberry were comforting
When someone stays a bit guarded, so do you
Goldberrys' singing got them comforting
i was a little uneasy about Goldberry
I think you are right, Valedhelgwath. gildor seemed to
be very secretive yet curious.
Close the door and shut out the night....very
comforting thoughts for them
I think Tom had the power to stop any evil coming near
Frodo while he stayed in his home.
Well he did we know that.
yes, he did tell the Hobbits not to fear anything,
just ignore any noises
and then Goldberry sung
His home was very homely too
Galadriel reminded me of Goldberry in the end
Just the place for hobbits to relax and feel safe
....and have dreams
and away from danger.
They were reluntic to leave.
I found it interesting that Sam was the only Hobbit
not to have a disburbing dream
that would be the same as i said earlier, he didn't
care much for anything else than watching frodo, and here
frodo was safe anyway
distrubing*
didn't Frodo dream of Gandalf's recue from Orthanc
That is a good point Perwing
but comforting for Frodo. His guradian angel.
yes he did, however, he did not know what it was
I agree with Perwing
it's not said that it was gandalf frodo was dreaming
of, just a man standing on top of a tower
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They leave Tom's house and as Grondy mentioned before
we seem to go from calm to nervous.
they feel un-protected without Tom with them
il brb
well, everything starts out just fine. They stop for
lunch and then the next adventure begins.
But Tom said farewell elf-friends so the elves were
watching somewhere.
I'm not sure they are Darous
and Tom gave them his song to sing if they got in
trouble
That he did.
I think Tom followed them too without them
knowing
Ah yes the song
He may have found out about Frodo being an elf-friend
from Frodo or from an earlier encounter with Gildor.
As if he knew they would get trapped in the
Barrow Downs
I don't think so Val
it says he had heard from gildor
I think Tom followed them without them knowing it
oh
i just found that passage now
I do, actually. I think their encounters in the
Barrow-downs are very important to the outcome of the
anti-quest
he also knew about frodo having the ring
Frodo may have told him, or he may have been talking
to Gildor.
Ho Tom Bombadil Tom Bombadil, By water,ood hill by reed
and willow.
But didn't see to care much
not frodo, so gildor must have told him
no, he didn't seem to care about the ring at all.
seem*
Tom travelled with them as far as he could.
Frodo found himself revealing alot to Tom.
It was not his concern.
Even gave the ring to him
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Did anyone else see any significance to their
encounters in Barrow-downs?
and they got sleepy after lunch and fell asleep
I agree with Valedhelgwath, I think Tom was following
them
Then I thought Tom would do something in the back of my
mind.
they needed to get their elven blades
that was important, Grondy
yep, if not merry would be sh*t out of luck when
facing nazgul
and pippin with the troll
The wight was unable to put Frodo into a trance
like the others... I think the Ring may have given him a
little power over it
How many of the Hobbits came under the spell in the
downs?
all but frodo
meaning 3
Hobbits are strong in mind.
but he was under the spell for a while too, but he was
able to resist
That may be true, Valedhelgwath? But why would the
ring want to give Frodo power over the spell of the wight?
even Frodo, except the ring or a higher power woke
him up, probably the ring because it didn't want to be buried
in the barrow for hundreds of years
Maybe it didn't but it had already imparted him
with a certain power of his own
because the ring wanted to go back to sauron, and not
be left with the wights
yes, I think that is a good reason for the Ring to
protect Frodo.
the ring is the unknown element.
That's true too. The wights were bound to the
barrows. The wight could not take the ring to sauron
if frodo had been taken by the wights with the ring,
it would never (or at least had a harder time) come back to
sauron
But if the wights were sent by the Nazgul Lord, why
couldn't he just go and retrieve it?
Part of the rings power was saurons.
were they sent by the nazgul??
the wights were already wights, there was nothing more for
the Ring to feed on had it come to one of them
A wight with ring would be more powerful than
the witchking
from angmar
that is true
He would have a job getting iot back from one of
them
now that is a scary thought.
i never knew that nell..
But in time it would betray him . Even sooner with
being so close to sauron.
but could the Ring have power over a wight which is
just a spirt?
I think so...it was still sentient
it exists between worlds so that is questionalbe.
but a wight would have no substance, how could it wear
the ring?
I don't think so. I think the weight was just
after bodies
it did mention something about a hand w/ the wight
it probably wouldn't, it would just let it be on frodo
i think
And I believe the ring tapped into that spirit
world... every time Frodo put it on he went into that plain
I think so too Grondy.
after their life-force
It did
That is an interesting thought, Valedhelgwath.
And the nazgul could wear rings and bear arms
it would have been content to stay in its barrow
whether it had the ring or not.
The ring would find its way back to sauron.
So it would seem that perhaps the Ring is calling the
shots here?
good point grondy, i dont think the wights was after
the ring
The two yearn for each other.
they just wanted the hobbits for their life-force
They wanted the ring for their master sauron.
I don't think the wight is after the ring, but
had it killed the hobbits it would soon have discovered it
I agree Valedhelgwath.
maybr they wanted Frodo for themselves?
And the wights were bound tio their treasure
the point is, what would they have done with it then
val?? would they really given it back to sauron?
I don't think so
I think they would have to. sauron made them hecold
undo them.
It would try to wield it itself
In an earlier chapter we learned from Gandalf that
there was a power other than the that of the Ring which made
sure Bilbo found the Ring. Could that same power be protecting
Frodo from the Barrow-wights?
me neither, so then we are back to nells question: is
the ring the one calling the shots here??
Eru
yes
Ithink so
The ring and sauron r one
no, the Ring is capable of betraying its owner, even
Sauron, I believe.
yes I agree
hmmm, you really think so?
Sauron has definitely put some of his own being into
the Ring.
yes but that does not mean the Ring is wholly Sauron
yeah, and that's why i can't see the ring betray him
too
The ring will be of a similar nature to
sauron.... One of his aspects is mistrust... It would perhaps
betray him through its very nature
yes
but sam, if u take away what sauron has put into the
ring, it's just a plain ring back..
Maybe the ring wanted to be cout off by isildur
but anyway, this is off topic.
and when Frodo wakes up and sees the danger he
remembers Tom's song
How does Tom find the Hobbits?
grondy just answered that i think
when they r trapped in the williow
oh my wrong
* Taz sets mode: +o Valedhelgwath
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frodo starts singing, and tom (who probably has
followed them) shows up
The song Tom gave them to sing if they got in
trouble
Tom saves the Hobbits again.
Tom found them lying in the chamber
yes Perwing (about the Ring)
What kind of power does Tom have over the wights?
they obey him
he sang them to sleep too
they fear him
perhaps it is that they are dead and he has an aura of
life about him
He's able to banish them
I wondered why he never bothered to do that before?
Maybe he is a tree shepherd and he controls them.
and he spread their treasure out in the open so
they wouldn't return
the wights had never bothered him before
A similar power to that which Gandalf had over
the Balrog and the witchking
he's never had needs to do it before i think
But I am sure he knew what would happen to the Hobbits?
They are only neighbours...they have not
encroached upon his woods before
and tom kinda left things the way they were as much as
he could
he probably did thats why he met them.
and he knew they would need the elvin blades
and a pretty broach for Goldberry too
I think Frodo proved that he did indeed possess a
great deal of strength in this chapter
he did, not falling for the wight's spell
It begins to set up his inner strenght
it was his first 'ordeal'
of many
and gave him a sense of confidence for what was to
come later
and sam showed lots of strenght in the previous
chapter..
and he tried to save his friends even though he was
alone. He chopped off the hand of the wight
Sam knows what he must do.
Sam showed lots of good strong sense.
A realisation of how big and dangerous the world
is outside of the shire
so we now have an idea that they may be up for the
task even though it didn't seem that way when they left the
shire
I couldn't have done that; I would have been too
afraid
I still see them as lost children at this stage
though
it shows that Frodo might be capable of the quest
So we know that perhaps a Hobbit is capable of the
task that is set before him
but sam knows he must help his "master"
i actually do not see frodo and sam like that anymore,
pip and merry is still kids though. (in my mind)
Pippin more tham Merry
I agree, Valedhelgwath. They are still not sure of
what they are suppose to do. However, we have seen Sam's
common sense and Frodo's stout heart at work.
I see Sam as a boyscout
hes smaller
Pippin and merry fell on the adventure.
right nell, we've seen small things that indicate that
they might not be so helpless afterall
After reading the book through and going back, I think
these chapters really set the stage for Frodo and Sam.
and still we see that they need help, ergo the whole
thing with making a fellowship to help them makes sense
That certain quality that never ceased to amaze
Gandalf
right Val!
Gandalf knew more than he revealed, I guess.
and so concludes this week
hobbits always amaze you.
and Tom has a way with animals too as he calls for
five ponies and they come to him
Thanks Nell
gandalf had seen the changes bilbo went through on his
adventure, and i think he saw a lot of the same in frodo
We will read the next three chapters for next week's
discussion.
cheers Red
Good class Nell and all
good lesson Nell
thank you Rednell
it was a great class
ok, good one Nell! Smile Smilie
Catch you all around.. Must fly now
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ups, sorry bout the smile....
Thank you Nell
bye!
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see you in #tolkien
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byebye!
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has left #bilbos-study
see you in #tolkien
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bye
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End of #bilbos-study buffer Sun Mar 02 18:57:35 2003
Thanks for the class Rednell! It was wonderful. Big Smile Smilie
Nell has asked me to lead the class Sunday at 9:00 PM GMT as she will not be available. We will try to discuss Chapters 9, 10, and 11 of Book I.

Also Val thinks his job will find him at sea Sunday, so you my fellow classmates, had better help me out by reading those chapters to refresh your memorys, so that we also are not "out-to-sea." Elf With a Big Grin Smilie

[Edited on 6/3/2003 by Grondmaster]

________________________________________________________________

Change in plan from the above: We will save Chapter 11 and cover it next week along with Chapter 12, thus completing the first of the six LotR books at that time.



[Edited on 8/3/2003 by Grondmaster]
Quote:
Also Val thinks his job will find him at sea Sunday
I might be okay for this weekend, Grondy. Weather permitting, I'll be away all next week. It'll be the weekend of the 22-23rd that I'll be doing surveys.

I'm not sure what time I'll have to go to sea on Monday yet though. If it's early, I might not manage to make it in.
I will not be able to attend this class or the next three as I will be on vacation. Wink Smilie But I know you'll do a wonderful job Grondy and I look forward to reading the transcripts. Big Smile Smilie

[Edited on 7/3/2003 by Samwisegamgee]
I am unable to connect to the chat server (irc.socery.net 6667) so it looks like class may have to be postponed for a week.
I've just spent the last ten minutes trying to get in myself to no avail. Probably a problem with the room then. There's been a few people commenting on not being able to get in.

We were able to go ahead with class afterall as I got back home at 9:30pm GMT. Unfortunately, the only people who could participate were those who use mIRC.
If you wish to repeat this lesson next week we can do so or you can read this week's script. Otherwise, next week we will be covering the next 2 chapters; A Knife In The Dark and Flight To The Ford.

Here is the log from tonight's discussion of At The Sign Of The Prancing Pony and StriderStart of #bilbos-study buffer: Sun Mar 09 18:45:38 2003
* Now talking in #bilbos-study
* ChanServ changes topic to 'This is Planet-Tolkien.com's
Tolkien class room! If a class is not currently active and no
one is about, try #Tolkien (Barliman)'

are there any rules we need to know about?
ok, we are going to discuss the next 2 chapters this
week. At the Sign of the Prancing Pony and Strider
nope
Grondy was suppose to teach today, so I believe that
he is having problems logging in.
ok, let us begin
cool no rules
The first thing we read in chapter 9 is a description
of Bree
oh yes, there are rules, Klytemnestra.
no actions, as this disturbs the flow of the class
no private chatting as this distracts the class member
you are chatting with
oh, ok, what are actions?
stay on topic
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actions are like this:
when you write /me bla bla
hey Cale
Hello
ok thank you Rednell
* Rednell is demonstrating an action
I am so sorry I am late
don't worry, we haven't begun yet
we are just starting, Calenthang, so you are not late.
you need a gavel, Red
oh
ok, first discussion
compare Bree with the Shire.
how are they different?
Rural to Urban?
bree is more of a town, shire is more countrylike.
the*
very good
Bree is dark and it's rainy, the shire is sunny and
peaceful
And I don't think there are any humans in the Shire
good, Calenthang
nope, there aren't any humans there
What about the Hobbits of Bree compared to the Hobbits
of the Shire?
Bree is more exposed to outside influences where as the
shire is sheltered
very good point, Prog
the hobbits in the shire keep to themselves more,
and don't like strangers
which accounts for the different natures of the
Hobbits of the 2 places
the hobbits in the Shire are much more outgoing
Klytemnestra: that is right
What did the Hobbits of the Shire think of the Hobbits
of Bree?
as outsiders
yes
they were dull
They thought they were "strange"
and uncouth
no?
they wanted nothing to do with them
yes, exactly
What were Sam's feelings when they arrived at Bree?
I can't remember...were Hobbit's in Bree of a particular
strain?
I don't think so
No, Prog
They claim to be the oldest settlement of Hobbits
Did Sam want to stay at the Prancing Pony?
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* Asteroth (Prince_Xiz@14055a92.14055a97.212.253.imsk) Quit
(Quit: Have a nice lesson!Good night to you all!)
No he didn't
no, he wanted to look for some hobbits to take
them in
He thought there'd be trouble
right
This is the first time we actually encounter Men in
FOTR. How does Sam's impression of Men compare to his
impression of Elves?
he thought that meeting them would be frightening
He was really intrigued by Elves
he mistrusted the men
He was definitely frightened by Men
why do you think this is the case?
and he was mesmorized by the elves
from Bilbos stories and when he met them, they
were even better than he expected
Do you think his impression of Men would have been
different if the Hobbits were not on such a dangerous journey?
perhaps Men reminded him of the Black Riders?
I have the same thought on that one too Prog.
kinda, but men were outsiders
and the shire folk did not trust outsiders
yes, i agree with Prog too
I think Sam normally would be cautious of Men but the
encounter with the Black Riders would bring fear.
that the men reminded him of the black riders
At this point he probably believes the Black Riders to
be men
* Ikarus (ikarus@d307d82b.upc-a.d93c1fe4.nl.hmsk) has joined
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yes i think he does
Elves sort of radiated kindness.... where as Men were
darker and more mysterious
this is true.
In reality, if anything it was the other way round
How's that?
Elves resented outsiders
Bilbo's stories of the Elves intrigued Sam. And the
encounter with the Elves was everything he had hoped for and
more.
This is true... but Sam had heard only good things about
Elves
Frodo and company found the Hobbits of Bree to be very
friendly and inquisitive and consequently felt very much at
home at the Prancing Pony.
yes, also the bree hobits wer friendly
and nosey
and also Butterbur was very friendly
What did Frodo tell the curious inhabitants of Bree
about their plans.
they enjoyed themselves very much
too much perhaps.
he was interested in geography and history
getting info on hobbits outside of the shire for
a book
Who was getting too comfortable and about to reveal
the secret of Bilbos departure from the Shire?
pippin, I think.
Pippin
He had some ale
And started talking too much
and a big mouth
fool of a Took...
are we right Red?
I'm not sure
i think so
yes.. pippin
yes, Pippin
thought I was confusing things, if you get my meaning
This is the point that Strider speaks to Frodo. What
advice does Strider give Frodo?
To shut his friend
yes, Calenthang.
to make his friends stop talking
so how does Frodo attempt to remedy the situation.
HE started singing?
singing
ah yes, and what does he sing?
he stands on the table and starts singing the song
Bilbo wrote
About the cat and the moon and the spoon.
Smile Smilie
Does this song remind you of anything?
hey diddle diddle the cat andt he fiddle
yeah
and the*
LOL
Why do you suppose Tolkien chose this particular song
for a Hobbit to sing?
it doesn't say anywhere in my book it has a name.
Hum.
Cause it's about drinking all night long. Smile Smilie
because it was like a nursery rhyme
and the hobbits are still child like
that is exactly what I felt too, Klytemnestra
Because of their size?
perhpas because it's very old? Just a guess...
or perhaps cause it was very funny.
it was very funny
or because they are strangers to the outside world?
What happens when Frodo does an encore presentation?
I thought Bilbo had written it, Prog?
he falls
I meant the hey didle diddle rhyme....
He fell
What was the answer, Nell?
ooh.
and the ring falls onto his finger
Yup
There is not correct answer, aire.
ok
it slips on in his pocketses
bbl.. cyas
* Sideshow_Bob (ecto2@3a310b6.phl.5372176d.com.hmsk) Quit (Quit:
http://www.octoberproject.net/)
just speculation. To me it represented the child-like
nature of Hobbits
Smile Smilie
yes, quite a nasty turn of events to an otherwise
jolly evening.
as the story unfolds thoughout the LOTR you see
how the 4 hobbits grow up
very true
Strider did not seem to be impressed at all. He tells
Frodo that he has managed to do worse than his friends could
have managed.
Indeed
yes strider is very upset
We are left at teh end of this chapter with the irony
that while Frodo tried to prevent Pippin from revealing their
secret, he actually caused more damage through his little
accident.
now everyone mistrust these shire hobbits
* Peredhil (pt@c2feb788.in-addr.d30e7701.com.hmsk) Quit (Quit:
NamariŽ)
Do you think this was an accident or was the Ring
responsible for Frodo's unfortunate mishap?
certainly the ring
Accident if you ask me
i think the ring was
that's quite an accident
I think that Frodo fell by mistake, but the ring
forced itself on his finger.
right
Good point Aire!
exactly Aire_Zelda
Interesting point Aire.
but I've never heard of anyone accidentally putting on a
ring
me neither Prog
And Frodo could not figure out how the Ring did get on
his finger.
he was just as dumbfounded as everyone else
brb
As we move into Chapter 10, How do the Hobbits feel
towards SpostThreadIDer?
they feel unsecure, they don't trust him at all
* Ikarus (ikarus@d307d82b.upc-a.d93c1fe4.nl.hmsk) has left
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Frodo trusts him because he feels he's his only hope
very suspicious indeed
everyone else is unsure
merry pippin and sam do not like him
and don't trust him
Prog, I am not so sure at this point that Frodo does
trust Strider. He is perhaps cautiously optimistic.
right
but frodo does, sorta.
sorry
after they've talked to him and after the
ringwraiths they don't know what to think about him, they
still don't trust him, but they feel he's their only hope.
he is not real sure why though
As you read these 2 chapters, what was your impression
of Strider?
i thought he was very intriguing
very weird. I thought he was some kind of lurk,
luring them into new traps.
difficult to say....
good and bad at the same time
on the first reading you're just as suspicious as Sam and
the rest...
Yes, Prog. I did too.
but when you read it again, opf course you KNOW who he is
you know how good girls in school are attracted
to the bad boys.
interesting, Klytemnestra
LOL
lol
that is how i felt about strider
i wanted to make him good
Would it have made much difference had Barliman sent
Gandalf's letter to Frodo sooner?
he was very mysterious
yes
yes, much difference.
mysterious is an excellent word for Strider.
in what way, aire?
then frodo would have known that strider was good
No, wait, ask that question again, I didn't
understood it.
There is a good chance that Frodo may not have met
Strider, however.
yes it was a lot of luck and perhaps a bit of
magic
I think so Klytemnestra.
could the Valar have made sure they met?
But Strider was looking for them, wasn't he?
yes he was
Would it have made much difference had
Barliman sent Gandalf's letter to Frodo sooner? <-- I don't
understan the 'had'?
and if Strider was looking for them then Strider would
have found them
Barliman was suppose to send the letter to Frodo in
the summer.
this is true prog
Frodo had come across them accidently in the Old
Forest. He overheard them talking with Tom
Strider*
and if the letter had reached frodo before he
left, would it have made a difference
He knew nothing of this letter from Gandalf
i had forgotten about that Rednell
Probably the Frodo and Sam would have left earlier
before the Black Riders arrived in the Shire.
Aire: do you understand what I meant by the question
now?
What did you think of the poem in Gandalf's letter?
Ah
i thought it was cool
Nell, no, I don't..
very interesting... alife lesson for Frodo
things in the wide world are not always what they appear
you can't aways judge a book by its cover
in fact... they're rarely what they appear to be
yes, Prog. It is a riddle, isn't it?
yes
all that glitters is not gold
It's about the future of the charachters in LotR
yes, it is Aire.
I particularly like the line "not all those who wander
are lost"
Which character in particular?
i gotta go sorry folks
* Klytemnestra (Admin@6ca5ed37.6ca5f03e.65.71.imsk) Quit (Client
exited)
I like that line too Prog.
Aragorn
I haven't got the translation, but I think the
whole first part is about Gandalf. Then about Anduril and
Aragorn
I thought it was specifically about Aragorn
telling Frodo to trust him
Yes, I think it is about Aragorn. In fact Frodo comes
to the same conclusion
It is a riddle. You can almost read "who am I" as the
last line
Yes! True LOL
Why did SpostThreadIDer not reveal that he was a friend of
Gandalf sooner?
Hum.. Have you guys got the translation so I can
read it in English, cause I suspect we haven't got quite the
same version.
Sure Aire
He didn't think Frodo and co. would believe him
Cause he didn't knew about the letter and he
thought he had to convince them without any proof.
and he wanted to be sure of who THEY were
that it wasn't some sort of trap for HIM (aragorn)
All that is gold does not glitter/Not all those who
wander are lost/The old that is strong does not wither/Deep
roots are not reached by the frost/From the ashes a fire shall
be woken/A light from the shadows shall spring/Renewed shall
be blade that was broken/The crownless again shall be king
That is correct
He wanted them to accept him for HIM, not because
he was a friend of Gandals.
What happeded to Merry during his walkabout?
Hi met the balck riders
or, met and met, he saw them
he was a very lucky hobbit that Nob came along when he
did.
and a very foolish Hobbit for following the Black
Rider in the first place.
well... he said that he couldn't help it...
What does Strider suggest they do, now that it is
evident that the Black Riders know the Hobbits are in Bree?
"I seemed to be drawn, somehow"
That is true Prog. The Black Riders do have powers
through Sauron.
Where did the Hobbits end up sleeping that night?
IN the stables
in the room next to their bedroom
in the little livingroom.
In the stables
in the lounge ro whatever the heck it's called LOL
Oh sorry
In the parlour ( or little livingroom) under the
watchful eye of Strider.
yes! Parlor
!
minus the extraneous u Wink Smilie
The Hobbits have again run into difficutly and help
was there for them through Barliman Butterbur and Strider.
On their own, how likely would it be that the Hobbits
could complete the trip to Rivendell?
not likely at all.
Yes... they spend the first half of the book getiing
rescued
good way of putting it, Prog.
Lol
Well, they would have been killed by Old Man Willow...
All these dangers in the next coming chapters that
they knew nothing of, the ringwraiths, Frodo getting stabbed..
I say almost null chande.
chance*
or the Barrow Wight...
Next week we will be discussing the last 2 chapters of
Book I: A knife in the Dark and Flight to the Ford.
Thanks for a great discussion everyone.
We thank you Nell!
No Thank YOU Nell! Smile Smilie
shall we retire to the other room?
* Calenthang hands Nell an apple!
we shall
End of #bilbos-study buffer Sun Mar 09 18:45:38 2003

Start of #bilbos-study buffer: Sun Mar 16 18:34:12 2003
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hi you 2
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joined #bilbos-study
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hi Ikarus
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what's today's topic Nell?
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joined #bilbos-study
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Today we are discussing Chapters 11 & 12
what are those chapters aain?
again*
hello!
Knife in the Dark and Flight to the Ford
* Grondmaster (jakaputa@60ac36c7.client.dda11a73.com.hmsk) has
joined #Bilbos-Study
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oh Grondmaster!
hi Grondmaster+
0 mins?
hey Grond
i always heard your name but i was never able to meet
you!
Howdy
Welcome Grondmaster
hi Grondmaster
Hi Grondmaster
Well met Asteroth
hi Grondmaster!
(he is evil right?)
* Perwing|brb (remiajohns@6ca5f05f.234.105.192.adsl.o-d.d407ad04.
no.hmsk) has joined #bilbos-study
Oh yes very
* Barliman sets mode: +v Perwing|brb
good
i'm evil too!
Hey Perwing
* Taz sets mode: +o Grondmaster
wb Perq
oops Perwing|brb+
* Perwing|brb is now known as Perwing
why is Mellie putting that + at the end of everything?
ok, shall I start with the rules now?
looks needed nell
Stay on topic.
no actions permitted
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#Bilbos-Study
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Made it
* Taz sets mode: +o Valedhelgwath
* Rednell demonstates that this is an action
hi all
hi Valedhelgwath
hi Valedhelgwath!
hi val (and everyone else)
Hi Valedhelgwath+
(boy it's hard to write it)
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* Taz sets mode: +v Taz
* Taz sets mode: -o Taz
brb
Please be considerate of other participants and do not
engage in a private chat with them as this will distract from
their lesson
ok, let us begin
let's get started!
Yes
no smilies either
Chapter 11 opens with sort of "meanwhile back at the
ranch" type of opening. What has been taking place back home
while the hobbits are at Bree.
ok ok!let's start i have limited time!
very scary opening
yes, it is Grondmaster. Contrasting with the dance and
song at the Prancing Pony.
What is happening at Crickhollow?
Fatty Bolger heard or felt a noise
the black riders are looking for frodo
and what did that noise belong to?
good
the black rider spoke, what did he say?
open up, in the name of Mordor
ty Perwing
What did the hobbits discover when they woke up the
next morning?
* Ikarus (ikarus@d307d82b.upc-a.d93c1fe4.nl.hmsk) has left
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the room they was supposed to sleep in was totally
messed up
but Fatty was long gone raising t6he alarm
yes to both answers
obviously there was not point in sneaking away from
Bree, as the Black Riders were hot on the trail.
Why did Strider decide to leave by the main road, late
in the morning, rather than back road at dark?
safer to travel by day
why would that be, Grondy
so no one should follow them to find out where they
were going
good, Perwing
it would be very suspicious to go the back road
why was it safer to travel by daylight?
and they would be watched anyway
black rider was more powerful and scary in the dark??
the riders were more powerful in the dark
that is right
evil avoids the light!
their fear factor
Does anyone know how long it took them to reach
Weathertop?
about 8 days? is a guess
about a week?
6 days i think
correct, Perwing
Frodo, in true hobbit fashion, had one concern. What
was that?
food?
grub, food victles
yes, and Strider's response?
dinner
..in true Ranger fashion
he didn't want them to talk about it
eat off the land if need be
yep
When they reach Weathertop, what evidence do they find?
one fox, two squirrels, some birds and a mirad of
midges
a stone with some rune's on it
What did they interpret these rune's to say?
and scorch marks
that gandalf was there 3rd october
(3 days before)
Do you think this would offer more hope or dispair?
both
hope
hope i think
Grondy, why both?
it means he would be baaaack
but he wasn't strong enough to stay and wait for
them
cause the riders was still behind them as far as they
knew, so if gandalf was in front he'd probably be safe. that
and the fact that gandalf's body should have been there if the
riders killed him
or that there was too much danger lurking about for
him to stay
I saw it as both, as well.
Hope that Gandalf is alive, despair that it was too
dangerous for him to wait for them.
I should have said "was baaack"
that is a good assessment
How did Sam feel at Weathertop?
spooked
leary
The enhanced senses he seemed to have acquired from
his encountered with the Elves was kicking in.
As the Black Riders advanced, how did the hobbits
react?
yes that is true.
afraid, through themselves down on the ground
which hobbits did this, Grondy?
or was that when the riders attacked
* Einar (pt@8068ce78.as.140561b1.is.hmsk) Quit (Quit: Leaving)
yes, when the Riders attacked
Merry and Pippin threw themselves to the ground. Where
was Sam?
standing besides Frodo
nope
steadfast and true
he was going forward to look at first
wasn't he cooking at first?
then he came back to frodo
Terror overcame Pippin and Merry, and they threw
themselves flat on the ground. Sam shrank to Frodo's side
Frodo was terrified also
yes always close to frodo
yes he was, but what temptation overtook Frodo?
to put on the ring
"Put on the Ring!"
When he put on the Ring, he got a very clear image of
the Black Riders. What did they look lik?
like*?
He tried to fight it
skeletons
yes, he did try very hard, Grondy.
ghost skeletons
dead kings
white faces
tall
keen, merciless eyes
unpleasant look
yes they were tall, and evil looking
haggard hands
menacing
grey hair
helms of silver
what did the rider wearing the crown on his helm have
in his hands?
long grey robes
morgul blade?
i don't remember
a longsword and a knife
yes
long sword and a knife
ahhhh ok
i remember now.
what happened next?
it glowed, the knife hand
one of the wraiths stabbed frodo
yes, it did, Grondmaster
one wraith in particular
frodo threw himself to the ground, cried out
"elbereth, gilthoniel" and then he felt a sharp pain in his
left shoulder
the king
correct, Perwing
yes, the King, Grondy
with that glowing knife
he then took off the ring as he saw aragorn fight the
wraiths, and everything got dark
end of chapter
When Frodo came to himself...
he woke up to find the hobbits around him and SpostThreadIDer
gone off after the riders.
Sam is beginning to have misgivings about Strider, why?
* Asteroth (Infernal_K@14055b12.14055ab7.212.253.imsk) Quit
(Quit: Nice to meet you Grondmaster!Good night Mellie,Nell,Valedh
elgwath,Peredhil,Perwing,Taz!Dovijdane Brother!)
Why is Sam suspicious?
because the company showed themseves on
weathertop, and Aragorn then disappeared
How does Strider convince him otherwise?
after the attack, and the fire was Aragorns idea
Kings foil?
Don't despair. You must trust me now. Your Frodo is
made of sterner stuff than I had guessed, though Gandalf
hinted that it might prove so.
A good way to win someone to your side is to speak
highly of those you love.
he was just going to find the athealas so he could fix
up frodo's wound, as soon as sam realizes that he doesn't
mistrust aragorn anymore
and besides if he was an enemy he could have done
Frodo in a lot earlier
this is true, but I am not so sure Sam was looking at
that aspect.
no Sam was just naturally cautious
Frodo tried to stab the rider with his sword, was it
effective?
not really, he just tore up the black cape
it had no effect
Because his sword still had the blade
elbereth's name was the effective thing
very good Perwing.
Elvereth = Varda?
why do you think Frodo came out with those words when
he was under attack.
yes, Varda
gildor?
he spoke about varda (and others) with gildor, didn't
he??
You think Gildor would have told Frodo to call on
Elbereth for help?
I could understand an Elf perhaps, but a hobbit?
not really, but subconciously he could as he knew who
varda was
It may have been his Elven blade
he had a Westernesse blade, didn't he?
well i don't think a blade can make him know what to
shout, so frodo's knowledge about the elves is more likely i
think'
yes, Perwing, I think you have a valid point there.
I also think that it is more than coincidence that
Frodo cried to Varda at that moment.
it was made to combat the Witch-King's army wasn't
it
the blade?
yea
I think so. Valedhelgwath?
i think so yes
yup, tom tell them when he gives them the blades they
was made in Vesterness, they were enemies of the dark lord
but our "higher power" may have been watching over
Frodo here as well
It would seem unseen forces are still at work to see
that the Ring does not fall into the hands of the Dark Lord.
and the Witch-King probably felt his Morgal knife
would do its job
that's my bet too, and something/someone tells frodo
the right thing to say in that incident. (but he also probably
must have heard her name before to be able to, so his
"obsession" with elves may not be coincidental either?!?!)
* Peredhil (Peredhil87@c9dbb576.in-addr.d30e7701.com.hmsk) Quit
(Quit: NamariŽ)
Oh, I am sure that he has heard it before with all the
stories from Bilbo. But remember, that it was a higher power
at work when Bilbo found the Ring.
or so Gandalf believed.
and why? because frodo was supposed to get it
eventually!
exactly.
"and i find great comfort in that" quote Gandalf
It meant the "plan" was pulling together
in which case they could ill afford to have the
witch-king carry Frodo and the Ring off
I think Frodo, like Beren, was part of Eru's
theme, and as such would have been "programmed" with certain
knowledge
frodo had the humblenss of character to complete the
missonof destroying the ring
but could he have done it without help?
if he didn't get carried off
no way!
Yes, Valedhelgwath. I like that theory.
i don't like it, but i think it may be true
Which would explain why the cry to Elbereth came at
just the right moment.
yup!
When I say programmed, I mean he had perhaps
earlier found himself with the urge to find out certain things
without even knowing why
rather than being possesed to say the words at
that time and place
true, Valedhelgwath, just as I doubt if Frodo would
consiously cry to Varda for help, without that programmed
knowledge
i understand that val, i just don't like the thought
of anyone being "forced" (in lack of a better word) to do
something, as that would mean they didn't have total control
over their own life
Was he forced?
even if the one "forcing" is Eru himself
I think guide would be a more gentle term.
forced/programmed, call it whatever you like
I think it came naturally, he just didn't think
about saying the words
Eru worked in very subtle ways, but everything
seemed to be for a reason.... At some stage, Frodo may have
found himself listening to elven tales of Varda much more than
he undertood why
What about the Ring, Perwing? Frodo did not put the
Ring on in response to his own desires but to the commanding
wish of the Dark Lord.
Once the name was in there, it was just waiting
for the reason to come out
that's also true nell, and i can't say there are many
things at all about the ring i like..
Don't you think there has to be a counterbalance?
yes i do, but eru is the one starting the whole thing
so why have melkor there in the first place???
but that's another discussion
Aren't you guys digging in a little deep?
Frodo may be made of stern stuff, but I hardly think
he would have enough power to resist the will of the Ring and
the Dark Lord on his own.
He was only a tool...Tools can be easily broken
unfortunately
ok, nevermind. takes way to much time to explain what
i mean
what does Strider need to treat Frodo's wound?
Eru had a backup with Aragorn and Elrond though,
who I believe were both part of his plan too
let's just say Eru messed up from the beginning!
athealas
this is starting to get interesting.
I think the Vala messed up.
how so Nell?
I also agree that Aragorn and Elrond wre part of the
plan
who created the vala (including melkor) ?????
man needs hardship in order to advance,
Eru, of course.
then who messed up?`
yes I think Aragorn and Elrond were part of the plan
if my son turns out to be a serial-killer, i'd say I
was the one messing up!!
The ainur were all just aspects of Eru's
thought... some represented physical forces and some emotional
aspects...Melkor just summed up the negative aspects
I think we will discuss this one later, Perwing. It is
a very interesting topic, but just a bit off this one.
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i know, as i said, this is another discussion
go on nell, pls
athelas
Kings foil
Will this cure the wound?
Worthless except in the hands of the king
nope
It will slow the damage
but it can help keep him alive until elrond can heal it
Aragorn made a brew and bathed Frodo/s wound, but
it was beyond his power
so they had to press on quickly.
no it will not completely heal the wound, but itwill
slow down the effect of it until Frodo can get to Elrond
if they hurry
which they proccded not to do
who did they meet on the road to Rivendell?
Glorfindel
Arwen
hehe
lol
Grondy????
Sorry, just slipped out
Books Grondy, books, not the movie. heheheee
What was Glorfindel's suggestion?
lol
get a move on
We do not want to go there, Grondmaster.
he'd take frodo with him, and the other should follow
on their own
he will take frodo on
How did he convince Frodo that he should leave the
others behind?
he told frodo the others wouldn't be in danger as long
as frodo wasn't there
the others would be safer with out frodo around
he was causing them danger
That the riders were after Frodo and not them
yep and so Frodo agrees.
that they would not be in danger if it were not
for Frodo being in their company
"It is you, and what you carry, that sets us all in
danger"
and then he let Frodo ride the horse by himself?
Now, Glorfindel places Frodo on his horse, a horse
large enough to carry a tall eElf.
Does anyone else find this part of the story hard to
imagine?
no,
why not Mellie?
but said the hore would not let his rider fall off
it seemed to come alive for me
how does a horse not let it's rider, especially a sick
rider, fall?
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exited)
..at full gallop, no less
Glorfindel should have ridden the horse with Frodo
it's an elven horse you know, very bright animal!
frodo was just supposed to hold on
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* Barliman sets mode: +v Mellie
Personally, I found this part of the story weak,
nonetheless, this is the way Tolkien wrote it.
What I did like was the strength that Frodo displayed
when he stood up to the black riders.
it was easy for me for som reason
and then he fell off
By Elbereth adn Luthien the Fair, you shall have
neither the Ring nor me
I also liked the image of the White Horses in the
rushing river.
yes i did too.
Gandalf's theme
it was so magical
Frodo was just daring the riders to cross the water
yeah, images of horses in a river, but not a hobbit on
a large horse..... hmmmm
lol
ok, I will concede, Perwing
sorry, that's where i draw MY line
It is interesting to note that this is not the first
time the "forces of nature" have come to play in this journey.
I think Tolkien made some things to do with the
elves a little far fetched to give them that magical feel
but i accept others have their perception of how it
should be, just wantet to point out that there are lots of
unrealistic things happening!
i think you are right Val,
you make a good point Valedhelgwath.
these two examples we have mentioned aren't the worst
either i think. and btw, i totally agree with that Val!
this is fantasy Perwing, it is suppose to be
unrealistic, and magical
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Elrond may have made a damn upsteram to be broken
when need arose
a very good point, Mellie
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i know mellie, but why one thing but not another===
???*
Hello all, sorry im late.
That is what I envisioned, Grondy
Hi Kom
please continue, i insist.
Hey Val.
the magic was Gandlf's horses
You are right, Perwing. I have come to accept that a
large horse can carry a sick Hobbit and not loose him on the
way.
*smiles*
Can i just ask what the topic is?
Glorfindel said it was so
Don
Don't tell me it's horses
Chapters 11 and 12 of Fellowship of the Ring
true magic is unexplainable. and the elves and gandalf
had an abundance of it, and Tolkien just used it only when
needed
the end of Book 1 Komosot
gotcha
true mellie!
Was Ulmo still in the waters at this stage?
and do it ends. Next week we will cover the next 2
chapters, Many Meetings and The Council of Elrond. (oh the
dreaded council!)
doesn't the sil say that the vala's never went to ME
anymore??
not very often,but he could have lent a fin
That is an interesting thought, Valedhelgwath. I don't
know
and weren't the vala suppose to stay out of this mess?
Ulmo used to visit ME unlike the others and
often went far up the rivers...that was why the Enemy feared
water
Good point.
But Ulmo, often did things the others didn't know
about
they were suppose to stay out, but did they is the real
question, isn't it?
another good point
i know he used to, but i thought i read somewhere that
no Vala ever travelled to ME anymore.?! i could be wrong on
this one....
A plethora of good points.
I'm not sure if Ulmo went with the rest of them
though when the world was changed after the second age
Ulmo did a lot of things on his own, without the
consent of the other Vala
I think we can only speculate on Ulmo staying or not.
But that's what we are doing i guess.
but speculation is so much fun.
duh
Don't mind me.
ok
yes it is Nell
*smiles*
Shush Perwing.
and we do it so well.
lol we do,don't we?hehehee
anyway, that ends tonight's class. Shall we retire to
the other room?
and Ulmo wouldd explain Elrond's magic which took
place a few days distance from Rivendel
End of #bilbos-study buffer Sun Mar 16 18:34:13 2003