Thread: The Hobbit Discussion Group
This thread is to determine if there is enough interest to go ahead with the chatroom discussion. I am only available Sunday afternoon/evening.
Post here if you are interested and available Sundays either weekly or bi-weekly.
This is still probably the best time to get the majority of members involved, but it does leave the Japanese still abed Monday morning.
You can play around with these times at The World Clock Meeting Planner.
So, I am hoping Sunday will work out for most people.
My days off are Sunday and Monday.
I am only available Sunday afternoon/evening.
I assume you are talking about your own time zone there, Nell? I'm unsure what your zone is compared to GMT.
At this meeting we will introduce ourselves and come to a concensus as to the best time for the majority to meet. I will also give you a breakdown of the reading schedule and the themes we will be looking at.
You can use the chat link on PT site or if you use an irc client just log onto server Darkmyst:Random server and then channel #bilbos-study.
If you have any problems logging in just contact council as my email pops up while I am online and I can respond as soon as I get your message.
See you at bilbos.
For next week, read chapters 1 through 3 and we will meet at 7pm gmt on Sunday evening.
I will post some things to think about later in the week.
(you see im juustified in what i say!!!)
[19:57:39] (Rednell) lots of eager participants?
[19:57:54] (LadyBlue) Indeed
[19:58:10] (Rednell) nice to see familiar faces
[19:59:25] (V) hi-di-hi everyone
[19:59:45] (Rednell) I will start with just a few trivia questions from chapters 1 - 3
[20:00:04] (floyd_n_milan) ouch
[20:00:08] (Rednell) then we will discuss the story thus far
[20:00:09] * virumor has joined #bilbos-study
[20:00:26] (V) hi VIr
[20:00:29] (V) ooops
[20:00:30] (V) vir
[20:00:35] (Rednell) hi Vir
[20:00:39] (virumor) hi
[20:00:44] (Grondmaster) Lo Vir
[20:02:12] (Rednell) Are we ready to begin?
[20:02:19] (V) yeth mith
[20:02:20] (floyd_n_milan) i think so
[20:02:23] (LadyBlue) Yep
[20:02:33] (Grondmaster) aye
[20:02:33] (Gildor) Yup
[20:02:38] (floyd_n_milan) maybe we should devoice virumor so that we get to answer :P
[20:02:53] (Rednell) Who was Bilbo Baggins' mother?
[20:03:11] (Grondmaster) Mrs Baggins
[20:03:21] (Rednell) maiden name?
[20:03:21] (V) Belladonna Took
[20:03:26] (Gildor) Belladonna Took
[20:03:26] (Rednell) ty, V
[20:03:43] (Rednell) From which side of the family did Bilbo get his wealth?
[20:03:54] (virumor) is this the Tolkien trivia channel?
[20:04:12] (Rednell) we are warming up with some trivia questions
[20:04:17] (virumor) ok
[20:04:31] (LadyBlue) The Took side...
[20:04:33] (Grondmaster) both
[20:04:35] (Gildor) The Tooks, I guess
[20:05:04] (LadyBlue) I remember it said that Bungo built the Bag End partly with Beladona's money
[20:05:07] (Gildor) Tooks were richer than the Bagginses
[20:05:26] (Rednell) indeed
[20:05:34] (Grondmaster) The Bagginses owned the Hill for ages
[20:05:48] (elffairy) unhuh
[20:05:56] (Grondmaster) but I will conceed the Tooks were richer
[20:06:00] (Rednell) The Tooks were not as respectable as the Bagginses but wealthier
[20:06:09] (Gildor) Exactly
[20:06:35] (elffairy) i think the baggins were respected bc they never had ne adventures
[20:06:42] (elffairy) idn't that wut it said in the hobbit?
[20:06:43] (Rednell) indeed
[20:07:11] (V) respectable hobbits
[20:07:16] (Rednell) What time of the day did Gandalf first visit Bilbo?
[20:07:27] (Gildor) Morning
[20:07:28] (LadyBlue) tea time?
[20:07:34] (V) and Belladonna didn't have any more adventures after she married Mungo? Bungo?...
[20:07:42] (virumor) Gandalf visited Bilbo at the ides of March.
[20:07:48] (virumor) but alas, it availed him not.
[20:07:53] (Grondmaster) late morning
[20:07:55] (V) morning?
[20:07:56] (Rednell) Gildor is correct
[20:07:58] (Rednell) morning
[20:08:10] (floyd_n_milan) ides of March?
[20:08:20] (Rednell) That is today, floyd
[20:08:21] (Grondmaster) 15 March
[20:08:22] (V) Shakespeare - Beware the Ides of March
[20:08:28] (virumor) et tu, Vee?
[20:08:31] (V) Julius Caesar I think
[20:08:34] (Rednell) What instrument did Thorin play?
[20:08:39] (floyd_n_milan) mhmmm
[20:08:43] (V) harp
[20:08:45] (V) golden harp
[20:08:48] (Grondmaster) golden harp
[20:08:49] (Rednell) yep
[20:08:51] (floyd_n_milan) yeah
[20:08:59] (Rednell) Who played the drum?
[20:09:09] (Gildor) Bombur?
[20:09:11] (Grondmaster) Bombur?
[20:09:14] (Rednell) yes
[20:09:24] (elffairy) gj
[20:09:28] (V) I know there was a clarinet somewhere
[20:09:40] (Grondmaster) two of them
[20:09:41] (LadyBlue) 2 of them
[20:09:56] (V) k
[20:10:05] (Rednell) who played them?
[20:10:11] (V) dwarves
[20:10:13] * elffairy Quit (Client exited)
[20:10:16] (LadyBlue) Bifur and Bofur
[20:10:23] (Rednell) yes
[20:10:31] (Grondmaster) before and after
[20:10:36] (V) we lost one
[20:10:40] (Rednell) ok, that is all for the triva.
[20:11:13] (virumor) no questions about the colours of the hats?
[20:11:22] (Rednell) we will be getting to that in discussion.
[20:12:10] (Rednell) When Tolkien describes the "Hobbit Hole", what does it tell you about Hobbits?
[20:12:50] (Grondmaster) comfort was their greatest desire
[20:12:52] (LadyBlue) That they like their privacy and tend to grow roots, so to speak...
[20:13:03] (V) no stairs
[20:13:12] (Rednell) nice observation, LadyBlue
[20:13:36] (floyd_n_milan) Several species of small furry animals gathered together in a hole and grooving with a pict hmmm
[20:14:21] (Grondmaster) they ate well
[20:14:42] (Rednell) When I read about the wall with pegs for lots of hats and coats and several pantries, I thought they may like to entertain.
[20:15:08] (floyd_n_milan) i think they had a certain liking towards 'smoothness'
[20:15:08] (Gildor) They liked visitors
[20:15:10] (Rednell) notice there were dining rooms, not just one
[20:15:12] (LadyBlue) I just figured they have a lot of clothes and several stomacks.
[20:15:14] (floyd_n_milan) slow, steady lives
[20:15:33] (Rednell) How does Bilbo receive Gandalf?
[20:15:38] (floyd_n_milan) i guess they didn't really like the rough corners
[20:15:48] (Gildor) Friendly
[20:15:50] (floyd_n_milan) fits in with the general nature of their lives
[20:15:50] (LadyBlue) Politely.
[20:15:59] (floyd_n_milan) offered him a puff i think :s
[20:16:12] (Rednell) yes
[20:16:14] (Grondmaster) with many 'Good Mornings'
[20:16:34] (LadyBlue) Just one, but many interpretations, I think
[20:16:44] (Gildor) "Good morning," Bilbo said, and he meant it.
[20:16:46] (Rednell) indeed, who would have though Good Morning could be interpreted so many ways
[20:16:46] (floyd_n_milan) that was Gandalf
[20:16:56] (floyd_n_milan) being clever
[20:17:24] (Grondmaster) and hitting the nail on the head
[20:17:28] (V) yes
[20:17:34] (LadyBlue) But he made a good point. How often do we say something and persume there's only one meaning.
[20:17:45] (V) and Bilbo was being polite and he didn't remember Gandalf
[20:17:46] (Rednell) What seems to indicate that Bilbo was not so pleased to have Gandalf company afterall.
[20:17:58] (Rednell) another good observation, LadyBlue.
[20:18:01] (virumor) the usual restraint of Hobbits towards strangers.
[20:18:06] (V) he said Good Morning again
[20:18:19] (virumor) what i would call, Hobbit restraint.
[20:18:26] (Grondmaster) the word "adventure"
[20:18:41] (Rednell) and took out his morning letters as much as to dismiss
[20:18:59] (Rednell) yes, Bilbo didn't care too much for the word adventure.
[20:19:09] (virumor) Bilbo merely needed to be woken up from his slumber.
[20:19:26] (Grondmaster) nasty things, make you late for dinner
[20:19:34] (Rednell) this is true, as we will come to discover, Vir
[20:20:00] (V) Apart from being Took-related, why *did* Gandalf choose Bilbo?
[20:20:14] (V) he seemed to know a lot about what Bilbo could and would do
[20:20:21] (floyd_n_milan) Maian instinct?
[20:20:22] (Rednell) good question.
[20:20:22] (Gildor) UT tells us that
[20:20:29] (floyd_n_milan) it does?
[20:20:35] * floyd_n_milan hasn't read UT
[20:20:36] (Rednell) please share.
[20:20:38] (Gildor) Yes, *looks it up*
[20:20:40] (virumor) yes, it does.
[20:20:47] (virumor) it explains how Gandalf met Thorin in Bree.
[20:21:01] (virumor) then Gandalf gets the idea of dealing with teh Smaug problem.
[20:21:11] (virumor) for Sauron was planning to cream Rivendell.
[20:21:34] (floyd_n_milan) what does that have to do with Smaug?
[20:21:35] (Grondmaster) burnt cream
[20:21:41] (floyd_n_milan) hmm oh i think i get it
[20:21:57] (Rednell) but why Bilbo, there were probably other Tooks who were up for an adventure
[20:22:41] (Grondmaster) I think he was already an elf friend of sorts
[20:22:56] (virumor) Bilbo had the right genes.
[20:23:27] (floyd_n_milan) i don't think Gandalf had a way to test this. or did he?
[20:23:34] (Gildor) Bilbo allready wandered around and even talked to Dwarves
[20:23:56] (Gildor) For a Hobbit extraordinary
[20:24:17] (Rednell) I think Bilbo had the best of both gene pools.
[20:24:34] (floyd_n_milan) this is mere speculation
[20:24:36] (V) Gandalf remembered Bilbo as a youngster and somewhat 'adventurous'
[20:24:44] (V) he took a bit of a risk though
[20:24:59] (LadyBlue) Did Gandalf decide on Bilbo before he saw him or wasn't it untill the "goodmorning(s)" ?
[20:25:07] (Gildor) Bilbo, as a child asked Gandalf for stories outside the Shire
[20:25:08] (LadyBlue) *wasit
[20:25:08] (Rednell) yes, but Gandalf tells the Dwarves that there was more to the Hobbit than what he seemed
[20:25:40] (V) I think Gandalf had already decided on Bilbo
[20:25:43] (Grondmaster) and even more than Bilbo knew himself
[20:25:43] (Rednell) LadyBlue, I think Gandalf already decided on Bilbo.
[20:25:53] (Gildor) So Gandalf knew he was not an ordinary Hobbit
[20:26:07] (floyd_n_milan) how?
[20:26:11] (virumor) still, he took a hobbit of a risk.
[20:26:32] (Rednell) yes, but it would not have been quite the adventure if he hadn't.
[20:26:54] (V) luckily Bilbo lived up to expectation
[20:26:57] * Finrod has joined #bilbos-study
[20:27:05] (V) hi Finrod
[20:27:10] (Finrod) am i there ??
[20:27:12] (Finrod) hi V
[20:27:13] (V) yes
[20:27:14] (Rednell) Bilbo couldn't help himself but remain polite even when he wanted Gandalf to go away and never come back.
[20:27:15] (floyd_n_milan) isn't there a definitive answer?
[20:27:15] (Finrod) long time
[20:27:26] (Rednell) What did he unintentionally do?
[20:27:35] (V) invited G to tea?
[20:27:39] (Rednell) yep
[20:27:50] (floyd_n_milan) err were we done with the previous quesion? :s
[20:27:54] (Gildor) So Gandalf invited some more guests
[20:28:41] (Finrod) what was the question ?
[20:28:54] (Rednell) Floyd, I suspect that Gandalf chose Bilbo because he knew the Tooks and Biblo as a child.
[20:29:11] (floyd_n_milan) what does UT have to say about this?
[20:29:14] (floyd_n_milan) did we hear it all?
[20:29:14] (Gildor) The same
[20:29:27] (V) yes - G remembered Bilbo as a youngster
[20:29:31] (Finrod) Gandalf chose bibo becasue he had known him as a lad
[20:29:32] (floyd_n_milan) hmmm
[20:29:44] (floyd_n_milan) or maybe that just Eru
[20:29:46] (V) and there was no one else suitable in the vicinity
[20:29:50] (Finrod) he had bright eyes adn a thirst for knowledge of the outsde world
[20:29:55] (Gildor) And Gandalf heard Bilbo talked to Dwarves - Hobbits don't do that much
[20:29:57] (floyd_n_milan) +was*
[20:30:17] (floyd_n_milan) but why did he need a Hobbit specifically?
[20:30:19] (Gildor) + Bilbos never married
[20:30:31] (virumor) because he'd fit in the hidden door
[20:30:33] (V) small in height
[20:30:38] (floyd_n_milan) ah ok
[20:30:38] (Finrod) no
[20:30:38] (V) need to get through tunnels
[20:30:44] (Finrod) i dont think thats right
[20:30:45] (Grondmaster) they could be sneaky
[20:30:46] (floyd_n_milan) wait
[20:30:53] (Finrod) when Olorin came down from Aman
[20:30:56] (V) Bilbo was described as The Burglar
[20:30:58] (floyd_n_milan) they didn't know about the door till Elrond told them?
[20:31:03] (Finrod) he was tramelled with the burden of flesh
[20:31:31] (Gildor) What does that have to do with it?
[20:31:32] (V) Gandalf had a map with the door shown but Elrond saw the moon runes
[20:31:48] (floyd_n_milan) hmmm ok
[20:31:55] (Finrod) hangon
[20:32:02] (floyd_n_milan) so they didn't know how to open the door?
[20:32:04] (Rednell) Gandalf had the key
[20:32:07] (Finrod) but he remembered the music of the Ainur
[20:32:10] (floyd_n_milan) hmmm
[20:32:14] (Finrod) if only vaguely
[20:32:17] (floyd_n_milan) Finrod, just a sec
[20:32:18] (V) nooooo no music of the Ainur here
[20:32:23] (virumor) that has nothing to do with it
[20:32:24] (V) just hobbits and dwarves and Gandalf
[20:32:28] (Finrod) he KNEW that it was important to send Bilbo on this quest
[20:32:40] (floyd_n_milan) how did Gandalf suspect the size of the door?
[20:32:43] (floyd_n_milan) i mean
[20:32:44] (Finrod) not for the dragon but the other MORe important thing to come to pass
[20:33:04] (floyd_n_milan) if Dwarves managed to escape out of it, why would they not fit in, to get it?
[20:33:04] (Finrod) yes it does
[20:33:09] (Finrod) it says so in UT
[20:33:30] (floyd_n_milan) or was it to do so with the sneaky nature of the Hobbits.. hmm burglar
[20:33:31] (Finrod) thats what Quest of Erebor chapter says
[20:33:32] (V) Instinct?
[20:33:36] (Finrod) im sorry have to go
[20:33:42] (Finrod) but check it up if u want to
[20:33:46] (Rednell) The Dwarves didn't want to take the risk
[20:33:51] (Gildor) Smaug would have heard the Dwarves running in
[20:33:59] (Gildor) Not a quiet Hobbit
[20:34:04] (floyd_n_milan) i see
[20:34:10] (Rednell) that is a good point too, gildor
[20:34:17] (Grondmaster) like I say hobbits are sneaky
[20:34:22] * Finrod Quit (Exit: Bye bye)
[20:34:40] (V) You are Smeagol....
[20:34:59] (floyd_n_milan) who?
[20:35:03] (V) Grondy
[20:35:09] (Rednell) Back to Chapter 1
[20:35:13] (floyd_n_milan) oh yeah
[20:35:21] (virumor) Sméagol is not a hobbit.
[20:35:29] (Rednell) How does Bilbo receive the next guests who arrive.
[20:35:30] (V) no but he says they are sneaky
[20:35:51] (floyd_n_milan) mumbling and cursing inside
[20:35:52] (V) he is surprised - he keeps expecting Gandalf
[20:35:59] (V) but he is polite and fussy
[20:36:01] (Gildor) He forgot all about the appointment at first
[20:36:18] (Rednell) What is the first thing he does?
[20:36:23] (Grondmaster) politely on the outside, with consternation on the inside
[20:36:28] (Gildor) He remembered when he heard the bell, only to see a Dwarf when he opened the door
[20:37:02] (Grondmaster) made extra tea and cake
[20:37:39] (Rednell) manners above all else, it would seem.
[20:37:48] (V) very right and proper
[20:38:53] (Rednell) From the description of the Dwarves, what would give us indication that Thorin Oakenshield was the leader?
[20:39:36] (floyd_n_milan) jewellery
[20:39:52] (V) he had a tassell on his hood
[20:39:55] (Grondmaster) silver tassle on hood and deference paid by Gandalf towards him
[20:39:58] (virumor) all other dwarves were wearing a "I'm with stupid" T-shirt.
[20:40:08] (Grondmaster) lol
[20:40:31] (Rednell) and the instruments?
[20:40:46] (Gildor) Golden harp
[20:41:32] (Grondmaster) brought in to Thorin by one of the others
[20:41:32] (V) fiddles, drum, clarinets
[20:41:41] (Rednell) What happens to Bilbo when the Dwarves play?
[20:42:05] (LadyBlue) He gets dreamy, I think.
[20:42:09] (V) he forgot everything and was 'swept away'
[20:42:11] (Gildor) He gets excited for a while
[20:42:29] (virumor) looks like Gandalf dropped some rohypnol in his tea.
[20:42:35] (Rednell) "something Tookish woke up inside him"
[20:42:45] (LadyBlue) When they sang and played the far over the misty mountains cold, but when they sing about the dishes he gets scared
[20:43:07] (virumor) on a sidenote, there is really no reference to the music of hte Ainur in the UT chapter anywhere.
[20:43:17] (virumor) another minute of my life wasted.
[20:43:23] (Gildor) lol
[20:43:28] * floyd_n_milan shakes head
[20:43:33] (Gildor) I could've told you that
[20:43:34] (Rednell) He left anyway
[20:44:04] (Rednell) Do you think Bilbo was deliberatly tricked into going on this adventure?
[20:44:10] (Gildor) Yes
[20:44:19] (Rednell) how?
[20:44:27] (V) I love the description Tolkiens gives....."The dark came into the room..."
[20:44:33] (Gildor) Gandalf put a mark in his door Bilbo didn't know about
[20:44:42] (V) He knew Bilbo would be polite
[20:44:43] (LadyBlue) Because they wouldn't take no for an anwser... Gandalf didn't really make it an option.
[20:44:43] (Rednell) yes
[20:44:55] (V) and he probably knew Bilbo's pride would make him say what he did
[20:45:15] (Gildor) But, of course, he could've staid home when he was almost late
[20:45:15] (Rednell) undoubtedly
[20:45:28] (LadyBlue) he was true to his word
[20:45:29] (V) not with Gandalf pushing him out
[20:45:46] (Grondmaster) No, no trick. Gandalf just used his tool of persuasion by pushing the right buttons
[20:45:46] (Rednell) ah yes, but he said "I will give you a good breakfast before you go"
[20:45:46] (virumor) Gandalf really is bad news.
[20:45:50] (Gildor) I don't think Gandalf would force him
[20:46:04] (Rednell) and Thorin corrects him "Before we go, I suppose you mean"
[20:46:25] (V) G was good at manipulation
[20:46:28] (Rednell) I agree Gildor. Bilbo had to decide of his own free will.
[20:46:36] (Rednell) but he was manipulated
[20:47:18] (virumor) the hapless Hobbit, being played as an instrument by Gandalf Stormcrow.
[20:47:25] (Rednell) But was Bilbo elated when he got up and thought that they left without him?
[20:47:48] (Gildor) Not at all
[20:47:58] (V) he was a bit disappointed they had gone
[20:48:09] (Rednell) indeed
[20:48:16] (Gildor) Especially cause they left him to the dishes
[20:48:29] (Rednell) How rude.
[20:49:23] (virumor) and so they went on, the Raiders of the lost Arkenstone.
[20:50:18] (Rednell) Where did Bilbo meet up with his first adventure?
[20:50:57] (floyd_n_milan) trolls?
[20:50:58] (Grondmaster) Bywater mounting a pony?
[20:50:59] (LadyBlue) an actual adventure? With the trolls?
[20:51:05] (Rednell) yes
[20:51:32] (Grondmaster) William Huggins, Bert, and Tom
[20:51:32] (V) he tried to pick a pocket
[20:51:40] (Rednell) Why would he do that?
[20:51:51] (Gildor) To proove himself
[20:51:55] (V) to prove he had seen trolls and that he was a burglar
[20:52:11] (Grondmaster) rather than a shopkeeper
[20:52:37] (Rednell) It would seem that our Bilbo harbours a bit of pride.
[20:52:43] (V) very much so
[20:53:44] (Rednell) How did he get caught?
[20:54:05] (LadyBlue) The bag was too big
[20:54:09] (Grondmaster) a talking purse that squeeked
[20:54:11] (Gildor) The wallet screamed
[20:54:27] (LadyBlue) seriously?
[20:54:31] (Gildor) Yes
[20:54:35] (floyd_n_milan) yeah
[20:54:36] (Rednell) yep
[20:54:36] (LadyBlue) I don't remember that lol
[20:55:21] (Rednell) Tolkien plays with words here too, as he did in the first chapter.
[20:55:35] (floyd_n_milan) how does a talking purse fit in with the rest of Tolkien's works?
[20:55:48] (Rednell) not the purse.
[20:55:53] (virumor) guess he was trying to entertain his kids.
[20:56:21] (Rednell) When caught and asked if there were more, Biblo says "lots" then catches himself and adds "none at all"
[20:56:36] (Rednell) The statement ends up being quite accurate.
[20:57:02] (V) as the troll noticed
[20:57:02] (floyd_n_milan) huh?
[20:57:11] (Rednell) indeed. Explain V
[20:57:25] (floyd_n_milan) i don't remember all the details :s
[20:57:32] (Grondmaster) lots of others, no other hobbits
[20:57:36] (V) when the first dwarf showed up one of the trolls said there were no more burhobbits but lots of dwarves
[20:57:43] (Rednell) no worries. I just love the way Tolkien plays with words
[20:57:43] (floyd_n_milan) aaah ok
[20:58:46] (Rednell) Why do you think we don't see much of Gandalf?
[20:59:20] (V) he said he was checking ahead and sending messages to Elrond, provisions etc
[20:59:24] (Gildor) Cause he's ahead of them
[20:59:55] (Grondmaster) testing time fr Bilbo and the dwarves to see how they will get along by themselves?
[21:00:06] (floyd_n_milan) do we know what all Gandalf did do when this quest was on?
[21:00:14] (Rednell) I think a bit of that Grondy.
[21:00:30] (Rednell) Well, he had way of showing up at just the right moment.
[21:00:44] (V) maybe he is keeping a low profile so that Saurons lot don't notice him
[21:00:50] (Grondmaster) He said he was looking ahead
[21:01:02] (virumor) Sauron was kinda low profile himself at that time.
[21:01:07] (virumor) he hadn't even shown himself openly yet.
[21:01:27] (V) but Gandalf knew about the Ring?
[21:01:28] (Gildor) He was still the necromancer
[21:01:39] (virumor) no, he did not.
[21:01:43] (virumor) that was 77 years later.
[21:01:46] (V) he wasn't about to alert the Enemy that he was looking around
[21:01:54] (Rednell) The adventure would have been pretty short lived if Gandalf hadn't come back.
[21:01:55] (Grondmaster) The ring was still lost in the River
[21:02:03] (V) Gandalf knew about the Ring
[21:02:09] (V) he knew it was lost
[21:02:16] (Gildor) And Gandalf believed it was lost, as Saruman said so
[21:02:33] (V) and the Enemy, whoever and wherever, might be interested in something that Gandalf was interested in
[21:02:38] (floyd_n_milan) ok could someone tell me the timeline?
[21:02:47] (virumor) 2941 third age.
[21:02:53] (floyd_n_milan) as in, what was happening in the rest of the ME when this was happening?
[21:02:57] (floyd_n_milan) i don't have any books around
[21:03:04] (virumor) me neither.
[21:03:24] (floyd_n_milan) do you even need them anymore? i suppose you know them all by-heart :P
[21:03:52] (Rednell) Back to The Hobbit
[21:04:20] (virumor) so basically it's 77 years before the war of the Ring.
[21:04:37] (Rednell) Do you think Gandalf knew that Bilbo and company would run into the Trolls?
[21:04:43] (floyd_n_milan) what about the necromancer?
[21:04:53] (virumor) that was just Sauron in disguise.
[21:04:53] (Grondmaster) nothing else of importance was happening during this period other than the White Council was preparing to evict the necromancer from Dol Guldor
[21:05:06] (floyd_n_milan) aah ok
[21:05:21] (Gildor) I thought Saruman was against that?
[21:05:29] (virumor) that is correct.
[21:05:47] (Grondmaster) Gandalf heard from some elves that trolls were about so he hurried back
[21:05:47] (V) he was in the loo when they voted
[21:06:29] (Rednell) What happened when he found them?
[21:06:39] (V) it was dark so Gandalf had to delay and distract the trolls until the sun came up
[21:07:00] (V) which he did by trickery and ventriloquism
[21:07:06] (Grondmaster) by getting them arguing amongst themselves
[21:07:13] (virumor) instead of just frying them.
[21:07:14] (virumor) pathetic.
[21:07:38] (V) stealth
[21:07:43] (floyd_n_milan) why didn't he fry them?
[21:07:49] (Grondmaster) Gandalf's Cookery Class
[21:07:53] (V) and reveal his power
[21:08:01] (V) besides he wasn't supposed to do that sort of thing
[21:08:06] (Gildor) What's the point in frying them?
[21:08:16] (virumor) he was not supposed to that sort of thing directly against Sauron.
[21:08:43] (V) I think he was more limited than that
[21:08:49] (Grondmaster) frying trolls is unnatural
[21:08:49] (virumor) that is incorrect.
[21:08:54] (Gildor) Then he could kill Sauron's entire army
[21:09:03] (Rednell) Well, if they knew that Gandalf had such powers the dwarves would have expected him to vanquish Smaug
[21:09:04] (virumor) his power was not that great.
[21:09:08] (virumor) he is not Tulkas himself.
[21:09:13] (Gildor) Well, parts of it then
[21:09:14] (Grondmaster) Sauron isn't in this story
[21:09:32] (Rednell) no, but some very special swords are...
[21:09:38] (V) ah yes
[21:09:45] (virumor) he's allowed to protect the ones he's guiding.
[21:09:53] (V) and he does
[21:10:03] (V) but he doesn't get out there and fight their battles for them
[21:10:32] (floyd_n_milan) well he did in this case
[21:10:39] (floyd_n_milan) though not with swords
[21:10:40] (V) he did it sneakily
[21:10:53] (Rednell) He had to or the adventure would have been over.
[21:11:05] (virumor) same with the Balrog, 77 years later.
[21:11:06] (Rednell) and V is correct. He did it on the sly
[21:11:08] (V) not 'out there' with staff blazing and frying trolls with the Imperishable Flame or whatever
[21:11:25] (Grondmaster) he has the gift of gab which he used on the trolls for a very satisfactory and natural outcome.
[21:11:27] (virumor) it would've been faster.
[21:11:34] (floyd_n_milan) hmmm what exactly was the mission?
[21:11:36] (V) faster is not always better
[21:11:43] (virumor) yes, it is.
[21:11:47] (floyd_n_milan) of the quest?
[21:11:48] (V) the dwarves wanted to get their gold back from Smaug
[21:11:54] (Rednell) anyone want to answer floyd_n_milan
[21:11:58] (Rednell) ty
[21:12:04] (floyd_n_milan) entire thing eh
[21:12:13] (floyd_n_milan) so what did they plan to do with Smaug?
[21:12:14] (V) Gandalf agreed to help and said he knew someone who could help them
[21:12:17] (virumor) kill him
[21:12:17] (V) Bilbo
[21:12:34] (floyd_n_milan) kill him by sneaking under him?
[21:12:42] (virumor) sure, no other way to do it.
[21:12:51] (Rednell) I don't think the dwarves planed to kill him as they feared Smaug
[21:12:52] (Gildor) Smaug got shot down
[21:12:57] (virumor) the times of Túrin were long gone.
[21:13:08] (floyd_n_milan) yeah
[21:13:11] (Grondmaster) they weren't going to worry about smaug until they had to, for Gandalf couldn't find them a Hero, only a burhobbit
[21:13:17] (floyd_n_milan) so it's like Frodo's quest.. just hopeful
[21:13:26] (Rednell) They were just greedy little dwarves and wanted the gold with someone else taking the risks
[21:13:32] (virumor) there's always hope.
[21:13:38] (Gildor) Life is hope
[21:13:43] (V) they also wanted revenge on Smaug for killing their kin
[21:13:49] (floyd_n_milan) so they just wanted to get the gold without Smaug noticing?
[21:13:54] (floyd_n_milan) hmm
[21:13:59] (Grondmaster) Greed rules Dwarves above all else
[21:14:03] (Gildor) They wanted the mountain back
[21:14:04] (virumor) that was perhaps the Dwarves' plan, not Gandalf's.
[21:14:11] (virumor) Gandalf wanted to keep Sauron's plans at bay.
[21:14:19] (floyd_n_milan) how exactly?
[21:14:31] (Gildor) By getting Smaug out of the wat
[21:14:33] (Gildor) *way
[21:14:37] (floyd_n_milan) how?
[21:14:38] (virumor) by trashing Smaug
[21:14:43] (Gildor) The quest?
[21:14:50] (floyd_n_milan) yeah but to what end?
[21:14:57] (V) in which case Gandalf would not want Sauron to know he what he was up to
[21:14:57] (Rednell) that comes later, floyd_n_milan. There was more than Smaug to contend with.
[21:14:59] (floyd_n_milan) did they have a specific plan about dealing with Smaug?
[21:15:02] (virumor) to prevent an alliance between Smaugh & Sauron
[21:15:02] (Gildor) No
[21:15:13] (Rednell) no plan
[21:15:14] (virumor) Sauron planned on attacking Lothlorien & Rivendell
[21:16:07] (floyd_n_milan) seems a bit shallow to me
[21:16:13] (floyd_n_milan) there's no definite plan
[21:16:27] (floyd_n_milan) so all things just happened because they were suppose to happen
[21:16:30] (Gildor) They didn't need one
[21:16:32] (virumor) all plans fall in the water anyway, once the battle starts.
[21:16:34] (Rednell) well, this was the book from which LOTR was spawned, floyd_n_milan.
[21:16:36] (Grondmaster) but that is in the background of this story and only Gandalf knows it
[21:16:51] * elffairy has joined #bilbos-study
[21:16:54] (Rednell) It was orginally intended as just a child's fantasy novel
[21:16:58] (V) wb elffairy
[21:17:12] (elffairy) ty
[21:17:19] (V) I am always struck by the diffence in language between Hobbit and LotR
[21:17:23] (Grondmaster) and The Hobbit was written first
[21:17:31] (Gildor) BRB
[21:17:50] (Rednell) however, Tolkien does bring in some of the content that he had created in The Silmarillion
[21:17:52] (floyd_n_milan) well we could have had some comments about linking the Hobbit with the rest of the works
[21:18:05] (floyd_n_milan) by Tolkien i mean
[21:18:20] (V) he mentions that Elrond features in many tales
[21:18:22] (Rednell) The treasures recovered from the Trolls' den for example
[21:18:23] (virumor) he mentions it in the beginning of LOTR.
[21:18:34] (floyd_n_milan) that's not what i mean
[21:18:53] (floyd_n_milan) we could have used a better explanation than just children's stories
[21:19:04] (V) what do you mean?
[21:19:04] (Rednell) This is Tolkien's first introduction of the Hobbits to his Middle-earth
[21:19:08] (elffairy) ?
[21:20:00] (Rednell) I am not sure what you mean, floyd_n_milan
[21:20:09] (floyd_n_milan) well like i just said
[21:20:14] (virumor) Tolkien did not plan on writing LOTR when he wrote the HObbit, floyd.
[21:20:20] (virumor) at least, i think so.
[21:20:26] (Grondmaster) The Hobbit was published 17 years before LotR
[21:20:30] (elffairy) it probablt that
[21:20:31] (floyd_n_milan) yeah but he could have elaborated AFTER writing LOTR oh well
[21:20:31] (Rednell) you are correct, Vir
[21:20:37] (V) therefore he couldn't link it to the LotR as it hadn't yet been written
[21:20:50] (elffairy) he might have
[21:20:54] (floyd_n_milan) like i just find it stupid that one would plan such a quest and just nearly ignore Smaug
[21:20:57] (elffairy) writing books take planning
[21:20:58] (virumor) it was linked, by the Ring.
[21:21:16] (V) eventually
[21:21:18] (virumor) but it wasn't planned to be linked.
[21:21:29] (Rednell) Tolkien didn't want to add anymore to LOTR. He really wanted to publish The Silmarillion but the publisher was not interested
[21:21:43] (V) stupid publishers
[21:21:47] (elffairy) no
[21:21:49] (floyd_n_milan) yeah
[21:21:58] (Rednell) In fact, to make the link, The Hobbit has to be revised and republished.
[21:22:07] (floyd_n_milan) yeah that's what i mean
[21:22:08] (floyd_n_milan) oh well
[21:22:10] (Grondmaster) The Prologe to LotR does the linking back to The Hobbit
[21:22:17] (Rednell) true, Grondy
[21:22:40] (floyd_n_milan) i still can't understand what they wanted to do with Smaug
[21:23:13] (elffairy) hmm
[21:23:31] (Grondmaster) It wasn't until about 1982 that the Hobbit was revised
[21:24:11] (Grondmaster) They were ignoring the smog problem until they came to that bridge
[21:24:22] (floyd_n_milan) that's a big gamble isn't it?
[21:24:24] (Rednell) floyd_n_milan, you have to think of The Hobbit as a separate tale from LOTR with no connection at the time of its creation
[21:24:40] (floyd_n_milan) that's quite difficult Rednell
[21:25:29] (elffairy) bc we all read it at once
[21:25:38] (Rednell) Smaug was just one of the dragons in the Middle-earth tales and one of the elements of "evil" in The Hobbit.
[21:25:53] (floyd_n_milan) but these people were to go meet him!
[21:26:04] (floyd_n_milan) surely they'd have decided upon a plan
[21:26:10] (virumor) no, they were trying to sneak in
[21:26:18] (Rednell) that was the problem, there was no plan to meet Smaug
[21:26:28] (Rednell) Just for Bilbo sneak in and steal the gold.
[21:26:38] (floyd_n_milan) all that gold?
[21:26:48] (Rednell) And Thorin was only interested in one piece of the treasure anyway
[21:26:48] (floyd_n_milan) isn't that completely unpractical?
[21:26:48] (virumor) besides, Smaug is just a lesser dragon, a relic of the First Age. Compare him to Glaurung or Ancalagon the Black.
[21:26:51] (Grondmaster) not if they could help it, they meant for bilbo to sneak out the treasure bit by bit even if it took twnty lifetimes
[21:26:53] (virumor) a puppy, he was.
[21:27:17] * floyd_n_milan shakes head
[21:27:37] (Grondmaster) Thorin hired a burgler not a hero
[21:27:40] (Rednell) I think Gandalf knew what was coming more so than the dwarves did.
[21:27:41] (Gildor) Smaug would've noticed though
[21:27:42] (virumor) or maybe they were hoping for Eärendil to descend from the sky again.
[21:27:56] (floyd_n_milan) anyway so i suppose there's no answer to this one
[21:28:37] (Rednell) no, because originally, the two works were only related in some of the characters.
[21:28:41] (Grondmaster) their greed overcame all logic about the situation floyd_n_milan
[21:28:49] (virumor) one of the great Eagles could've creamed Smaug too.
[21:29:09] (floyd_n_milan) Grondmaster, you're forgetting Gandalf when you say that
[21:29:45] (Grondmaster) Gandalf was using them
[21:29:58] (Rednell) I agree with Grondmaster.
[21:30:02] (Grondmaster) and their greed to stir up the pot
[21:30:16] (floyd_n_milan) fate
[21:30:21] (virumor) Thorin was greedy for vengeance.
[21:30:27] (virumor) vengeance for the death of his father in Dol GUldur.
[21:30:39] (virumor) and he wanted his kingdom.
[21:30:45] (floyd_n_milan) so Gandalf was using them as the sacrificial lamb?
[21:31:10] (Grondmaster) som later on the Men, who we haven't yet read about could come to the foire and get the job done as was the real plan
[21:31:20] (Rednell) no, I think Gandalf was aware that Bilbo was more cunning and, yet, had integrity adn could do the job
[21:31:38] (Rednell) Bilbo was
[21:32:09] (Rednell) not impressed by the greed of the dwarves
[21:33:00] (floyd_n_milan) so Grondmaster you're assuming that Gandalf knew what was going to happen?
[21:33:01] (Rednell) which leads me to wonder, was it the Tookish sense of adventure or the reward that enticed Bilbo to go on the quest
[21:33:16] (virumor) he was already rich enough.
[21:33:20] (Rednell) Gandalf knew what was going on.
[21:33:22] (elffairy) g2g
[21:33:37] (Grondmaster) Bilbo was there for the adventure, to see new vistas and meet new people
[21:33:40] * elffairy Quit (Client exited)
[21:33:41] (virumor) it were his Fallowhide genes.
[21:33:54] (floyd_n_milan) but did he know how Smaug would die?
[21:33:56] (floyd_n_milan) sorry, i can
[21:34:02] (Rednell) no, of course not
[21:34:05] (floyd_n_milan) t seem to be able to ignore Smaug
[21:34:09] (virumor) Gandalf knew nothing of what was to come.
[21:34:44] (Rednell) But he did know that there were other people who could help once the arrived at the Lonely Mountain.
[21:35:19] (floyd_n_milan) sacrificial lamb!
[21:35:26] (Grondmaster) Gandalf had "hope"
[21:35:31] (Rednell) And that may well have been
[21:35:42] (Rednell) just as Frodo and Sam in LOTR
[21:35:51] (virumor) it would only lhave been a sacrifice if he knew beforehand, that they were going to die.
[21:35:59] (floyd_n_milan) that's exactly why i'd prefer Silmarillion!
[21:36:06] (virumor) it was more a gamble, a risk, like with LOTR.
[21:36:35] (Rednell) The Silmarillion was edited and published after The Hobbit and LOTR and after Tolkien had passed away.
[21:36:55] (virumor) and some parts were practically written from scratch.
[21:36:55] (floyd_n_milan) i know
[21:37:07] (floyd_n_milan) anyway, i think we should move on with the Hobbit
[21:37:51] (V) yeah - I might have to go soon
[21:38:00] (V) ex dropping son home soon
[21:38:02] (Rednell) As with LOTR, things come together was The Hobbit moves along
[21:38:23] (Rednell) Well, we are ready to move to Chapter 3 of The Hobbit.
[21:38:24] (Grondmaster) so w2e just found the swords
[21:38:56] (floyd_n_milan) yeah
[21:39:04] (virumor) how the heck did they end up there.
[21:39:09] (virumor) for they were forged in Gondolin.
[21:39:14] (Rednell) They found the swords in the Trolls' Den, however, the story of the swords is revealed when they reach the Last Homely Home
[21:39:43] (Grondmaster) and how they might have gotten there too
[21:39:45] (Rednell) why not? Trolls probably pick up all manners of treasures as they travel
[21:40:19] (virumor) i don't recall trolls in the fall of Gondolin
[21:40:27] (Rednell) 2 of the swords had names
[21:40:43] (Grondmaster) orcrist
[21:40:46] (Gildor) Orcs could've taken them first
[21:40:53] (V) As Elrond said - they probably plundered the plunderers
[21:41:07] (virumor) Orcs would not get hold of Elven swords.
[21:41:08] (Grondmaster) dragons took them from Gondolin
[21:41:24] (V) brb
[21:41:45] (virumor) to where then? Angband?
[21:41:49] (Grondmaster) dragon hordes got plundered
[21:42:03] (virumor) who plunders dragons?
[21:42:19] (Rednell) when the dragon's away, the trolls will play...
[21:42:27] (virumor) wel, trolls would be stupid enough for that.
[21:42:41] (Grondmaster) plunders died and left treasures piles, trols finaslly found them
[21:42:56] (floyd_n_milan) where?
[21:43:15] (Rednell) under mountains
[21:43:23] (floyd_n_milan) what was all that treasure useful for anyway?
[21:43:29] (virumor) that's what dragons do
[21:43:34] (virumor) hamster.
[21:43:37] (virumor) like ravens.
[21:43:44] (Gildor) And hamsters
[21:43:47] (Rednell) dragons were like ravens and liked shiny tinkets
[21:43:47] (Grondmaster) in a cave in the hills or mountains, who knoiws, they never got around to writing their autobiographies
[21:44:16] (virumor) normally dragons answered to Morgoth in the First Age.
[21:44:28] (Rednell) That is a characteristic of dragons in most myths and folklore
[21:45:30] (virumor) maybe some dragons fled into Eriador with their plunder.
[21:45:34] (Grondmaster) We are still in a kids' story and what Tolkien wrote here is a given.
[21:45:36] (virumor) or deserted.
[21:46:13] (virumor) but if the kid asks "where does that sword come from", an apt answer must be given.
[21:46:18] (Rednell) but Tolkien does carry over some of the details to LOTR, such as Gandalf's sword
[21:46:35] (virumor) and Sting too.
[21:46:53] (virumor) he sang "Every step to Mordor you take", did he not?
[21:47:29] (Rednell) The sword was made by the High Elves from the West and plundered at the fall of Gondolin. Then the trolls plundered the plunderers.
[21:48:07] (virumor) but was the plunder taken to Angband, or to Eriador immediately?
[21:48:09] (Rednell) The naming of Sting comes later in The Hobbit. It is not a sword but a dagger, if I am not mistaken
[21:48:28] (virumor) for a HObbit, it'd be a sword.
[21:48:50] (Rednell) ahh, good question and perhaps something you can look for an answer to in one of the other books.
[21:49:37] (virumor) there is no answer, one can merely speculate.
[21:50:19] (Grondmaster) And that speculation belongs in the study of the Sil, not here
[21:50:23] (Rednell) What other helpful information was Elrond able to give the company of thieves?
[21:50:40] (V) Moon runes
[21:50:50] (Rednell) What are those?
[21:51:49] (V) runes that can only be seen held against a moon the same as the one when the runes were written
[21:51:54] (Grondmaster) writing that you can only see when the moon is in the same stage as when it was written
[21:51:55] (virumor) ithildin.
[21:52:15] (Rednell) who invented moon runes?
[21:52:39] (V) dwarves
[21:52:44] (Grondmaster) I don't know
[21:52:52] (Rednell) it was the dwarves
[21:53:09] (Grondmaster) smart guys, them dwarves
[21:53:17] (V) some are
[21:53:30] (virumor) they're all greedy buggers
[21:54:07] (virumor) they should all be cast back to Nidavellir.
[21:54:19] (Rednell) but it will be a challenge for them to time it right
[21:54:29] (Grondmaster) except for the son of one of the current company who we won't get to meet for anothewr 61 years or so.
[21:54:45] (virumor) no, that one became infatuated with a she-elf.
[21:55:38] (virumor) well, and with an elf too.
[21:55:51] (Gildor) Weirdo Dwarf
[21:56:09] (Grondmaster) was it luck or fate that they arrived in Rivendell with the moon in the correct phase?
[21:56:23] (V) yes
[21:56:28] (Rednell) well, that completes the 1st three chapters as the company get ready to depart the Last Homely Home
[21:56:28] (virumor) i guess Manwë ordered Tilion to ride his ship a bit faster.
[21:56:29] (floyd_n_milan) ask Eru
[21:56:49] (Rednell) Fate, as always, Grondy
[21:57:31] (V) I am away for the next two weekends so I may not make it to the sessions
[21:57:40] (Grondmaster) Thanks for the class Nell.
[21:57:44] (Rednell) yw
Thanks to everyone who has contributed to the discussion group and watch this space for an announcement in June.
This really should come back!!! If we don't get a good working chat box back, I'll make my own chat, free to join for everybody