I had the opportunity of doing some in depth courses on Christianity, and based on what I have learnt, these are the things that I found rather similar as compared to the Silmarillion.

First of all, as we all know, Tolkien described Eru as the creator of all things and that he was the one divine being that knew all and controlled all things. Needless to say, the Christian faith is based on one true God. This is not the only basis for arguing that his tale was based on the Christian faith however.

When Eru gave to each of the Ainur a portion of the flame imperishable, and subsequently Melkor searching the void in an attempt to find and obtain more of the flame, leading into Gandalf saying to the balrog that he is a servant of the secret fire at the bridge of Khazad-dum, it showed a striking similarity to the biblical interpretation of the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit in the bible is described as several things. The Hebrew word used in most of the Old Testament, when refering to the Holy Spirit, is "Ruach", which means wind/breath. This also signifies life, as in the breath of life. When Eru created the Ainur, he gave to each part of the flame. Think of it as giving each of the Ainur the breath of life.

Now we talk about fire. In the story of Elijah, when Elijah offered a sacrifice to God in front of all the other pagan priests to demonstrate His power, God sent down a flame from heaven that consumed the offering. In the book of Acts in the New Testament, on the day of Pentecost when the Holy Spirit first came down and filled the people, it came as a tongue of flame that appeared on every person's head. This very same Holy Spirit that was called the breath of life earlier manifested later as a flame.

In the process of creation, the breath of life was needed. And Tolkien called it the flame imperishable. Now we can choose to read it as a force or power of some sort, since Melkor sought after it. But later we read that Melkor could not find in the void the flame because it was with Eru. This reads like the book of John, which says in the first chapter "In the beginning the Word was with God, and the Word was God". Now we know in that particular case, it was talking about Jesus. But we also know in the Christian faith, there is the concept of the Holy Trinity, which means that the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit makes up what is called the "Godhead", or simply put, God.

Furthermore, we cannot consider it simply as a force because Gandalf was a servant of the fire, and it would be incorrect to say that someone was a servant of a force (being an energy that does not have a will). Hence it would be right to say that Eru WAS the flame imperishable... which would make it similar to the Christian concept of God and the Holy Spirit are one and the same. It would also show that when the flame was given to empower the Ainur, it is exactly the same principle as when Jesus gave each of the believers on the day of Pentecost the Holy Spirit to empower them to do His work.

It is also mentioned that Eru chastised Melkor when he sought to make his own music, saying that whatever other tune he made which he thought was separate from Eru was in fact part of the plan of Eru, since Eru was the creator of all music. This is exactly the same as the Christian belief that all things are according to the will and plan of God.

Tolkien's wonderful use of music as the key in creation also displayed Christian beliefs and ideology. In the beginning, the main activity that the Ainur did was making music. It is later mentioned at the end of Ainulindale that no greater music shall be made till the end, when all creations of Eru, including the Children of Illuvatar shall sing the greatest music ever. In Christianity, heavenly hosts of God are constantly making music to praise God. God loves and desires the making of music for His praise, seen in many instances especially in the case of King David, who managed to have the presence of God constantly on the ark of covenant manifested as a blue flame as a result of praise and worship through singing 24 hours a day. It is also believed by Christians that at the end of days, believers will all join in the great chorus in heaven to praise God.

In a certain way, Tolkien calling the elves his children is similar to God calling the Jews his children in the beginning, later accepting even Gentiles if they believe. In Christianity, believers will have everlasting life, likened to the immortality of the elves.

The characteristics of Melkor is almost the exact same interpretation of Lucifer. The main characteristic (and fault) is the same. Pride.

The Hall of Mandos is basically an interpretation of the judgement of God, but then again since Tolkien was a Catholic, it most likely was derived from the concept of Purgutory.

It is important to note however, that Tolkien was attempting to create a story worthy of being called a myth that belonged to the English culture. Hence it was meant to be a purely fictional piece of work. Tolkien was not attempting to write Christian literature. He was writing a story. But his strong beliefs and convictions in his faith has undoubtedly caused him to create a world that had such strong similarities, and to write about divine beings as he envisioned them to be.

Hope I wasn't too preachy and that anyone reading this would be able to understand it. Trying to explain it at 1.30 in the morning is challenging indeed!

That is quite a post Erkenbrand. Thankyou for sharing it with us. I have always seen similarities between Tolkien's work and Christianity, but there are many obvious differences too. I guess JRR was attempting a blend of several religions in an attempt to create something new.

I'm currently reading the Silmarillion and reading this Discussion Group as sort of a guideline. I wish to restart some discussions here and I hope the readers of the Silmarillion on PT would join in.

There is a mention in the opening chapters about Arda reaching its full potential in the end as seen by Eru. What are we exactly talking about? This is what Val said during our chat session a couple of days ago :



Comments please.

Better late than never, right? I'm probably going to save the rest of the Discussions for later, as it's getting kind of late (which for me means the suns almost risen.) I still don't understand people who find the Ainulindale boring, but I guess it's their loss; if you can't handle seven pages of text I've no sympathy for you.

I admit the distinction between the Aratar and the lesser Valar is one I have trouble comprehending. It's certainly a qualitative one but seems like it should be more than just "the Aratar are more powerful." Maybe in the terms of the Ainulindale they can be thought of as "first chair" for their respective sections, though as someone with no musical background I really can't say what that might imply. It does seem to me that there's more collaboration between the Aratar than between them and the "lesser" Valar. Perhaps this is inevitable as theirs tend to also be a more fundamental domain; interaction between Manwe and Ulmo and/or Aule is inevitable since they govern three of the classical "elements" that constantly interact with each other. I tend to think of the Councils of the Valar as something in which the Aratar do all or most of the speaking while the other Ainur take notes. I find it interesting that Vaire is given dominion over fate and yet is not one of the Aratar.

I think the knowledge that Tolkien was not just Christian, but Catholic, is very illuminating in terms of the Silmarillion, though it is by no means a "Christian allegory" along the lines of Narnia. Thus I tend to think of the Ainur as the Catholics view the Saints, which explains some of the correspondence to pagan deities (most of it is explained by their being primal figures associated with the primal world.) It helps to remember that angels are considered Saints as well, as with Michael (whom I usually equate with Manwe, as each are first in their respective ranks,) and Gabriel (whom I usually equate with Eonwe because of their mutual association with heraldry, though this becomes difficult in light of another view of mine.) The prominence of Varda and Mary within their frameworks seems pretty clear to me as well.

In general, I tend to think of the relationship between Valar and Maiar as analogous to that between seraphs and cherubs: of the same basic substance, but fundamentally different magnitudes. Of course, that makes the Eonwe/Gabriel parallel hard, since I'm pretty sure Gabriel is one of the seraphim. As always, I leave most of the parallels to those with a better knowledge of Catholicism than me.

I pretty much agree with Arwen and Erkenbrand on the nature of Melkors "Fall." He represents not the expression of an evil inherent in Eru (who might be said to be incapable of evil since all of Ea is his creation and his to do with as he pleases, evil be here defined as something counter to the will of the proprietor,) but the supreme example of free will in the closest thing to independence anything relying on the Flame Imperishable for existence can be. It seems natural then, if not wholly inevitable, that such a creature will desire, sooner or later, to be wholly independent in a way it can never be; that it is impossible does not eliminate the desire. Thus Morgoth exists in a pitiable state, as his victory is even less possible than that of the Eldar over him. They may have some hope of a superior force to overthrow Morgoth, but Morgoth himself has no hope of such allies against Eru.

My view, as I've elsewhere stated, is that while Morgoth, as an aspect of his creation, is comprehensible to Eru, Manwe can't comprehend him because his nature is inherently different than everything Manwe is or knows, and no hint of it can be gained from his knowledge of the Music because that is Erus creation, and Morgoth utterly foreign to Erus nature and therefore the Music. It's not a matter of experience as Manwe could interrogate Morgoth 'til the end of time and his understanding of him would never increase; to Manwe Morgoth is a non-sequitur

A final note to Erkenbrand: I can't believe I missed the link between the Flame Imperishable and the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. It's right up there with missing Egwene Al'Vere=Guinevere not hitting me until Lord of Chaos. Guess I'm just slow.

You're description of Vaires role, or her execution of it, makes tons more sense that my initial impression (what I get for not paying attention to "lesser" Valar, I guess.)

I don't think Erkenbrand or I intended to say the Flame Imperishable was an allegory (we all know how Tolkien felt about those, though I still say the whole WWI/Europe/WWII/America vs. Last Alliance/Eldar/War of the Ring (II)/Men thing is just so blindingly obvious.) For one thing, the Flame Imperishable never gives us any indications of consciousness; it's not a "person" of Eru, but an aspect of him.

And yeah, I can't say much since I"m so slow myself, but sure; look with whom she starts out. You can pretty much pick any Arthurian character you want, including the man himself and his sword, and sooner or later it shows up in WoT, though the relationships are like if Mallory went on a three day bender before doing a revision. If it's not Egwene, who is it? It's just that that name is mangled more than any of which I can think so it's hard to spot. If you say the whole name fast it's clear as day.

I think Melkor's ambitions far exceeded his own power and it is his own knowledge of these limitations which drove him to do many of the things he did. By this I mean he craved the power to create life, which only Iluvatar could do, and knowing he could not do so, made him bitter against the life that did exist. It was from the Flame Imperishable that life was created, so it was this that he first sought. When he could not find the Flame in the Void, he began twisting and mutating the Children when he found them. Ultimately he spread his own being into every atom of Middle Earth (Morgoth's Ring) in a bid to control Elves and Men.

But yes, I agree with you Miruvor, it was rediculous him seeking the Flame as its source is Iluvatar himself.