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Is it racist to comment that Odo's picture looks like "a dim dim dim dippy dippy dimdim"............... Rolf Harris
Odo Banks is Rolf and i claim my five pounds.
It appears my cover is blown!

It is also appears I have my own Thread now!

I've never felt this way before.... you know... humbled....

Oh you are a Lovey, Old Cat!

Odo

NB Henceforth, I shall call you 'Lovey" my good Feline.
You should be honoured indeed Odo <img src='/images/smileys/bigsmile.gif' border='0' alt='Big Smile Smilie' /> .

I was the first official member of this forum and I STILL don't have my own thread <img src='/images/smileys/sad.gif' border='0' alt='Sad Smilie' /> .

[b:24fjzs94]GB[/b:24fjzs94]
I wonder if this is a reference americans wouldn't catch? I still claim the long face comes pretty close to the cross section of Constable Odo on Deep Space 9, which is something perhaps only Americans know about. Doesn't have the nose, though.

Speaking of somewhat country specific personalities, I had to look up Miranda Kerr. Odo, old chap, I owe you drinks a plenty. Brightened my whole day and ruffled my nights.
She has ruffled more nights than yours, dear Halfwise! Stunning, what!

As to having my own thread, GB - if it's any consolation, I think has more to do with my (now clearly) famous name than because of any particular attribute I have (though I assure you I have some!) Had my Mother only known 'Odo' was such a famous name, she probably would have been too humble to Christen me with it! Humble woman, my Mum.

(Funny word [i:1aqledu3]'Çhristen[/i:1aqledu3].' I wonder if she's a secret Christian? And are there any others in Rushock Bog?)

Odo
I have had a sudden inspiration! Seeing I have my own thread now, and seeing I'm clearly the wisest hobbit on this forum (by a street), perhaps we could use this thread as an opportunity for you folk of lesser minds to ask me Tolkien related questions. I could then turn my immense wisdom to answering your questions.

For instance GB might ask something obviously stupid like:

"I think the White Council should be in the movies. What do you think, Wise Odo?"

And I could answer (tactfully, of course): "The answer to that question is so blindingly obvious, dear deluded Beard, I'm amazed even a dumb-arsed Tolkien Liberal-verging-on-Heathen like you would even ask it! It really shows how truly unwise you are! Though I should not be surprised, for who ever heard of a beard with a brain? Oh yes... and I look very much forward to your next question... you silly #^*!#@% duffer...!"

Great idea, what! Maybe you could start, GB? Don't be shy!

Odo Fullwise Banks
Oh Odo, you are just and fair.
Who has the greater heart Frodo, just doing his job, or Bilbo, just doing his job (though basically nicking stuff).
Any personal sleight i recieve in your answer is to be welcomed.
I must say it does seem slightly beyond the pale to be given permission by a good friend to sleight that same good friend, Lovey, but let's see... yes, let's see...

As to your very [i:9qel4mi1]very [/i:9qel4mi1]Reasonable question:

Frodo to all extents and purposes did not even have a heart, as you misguidedly allege, for Sam did all the heart (and leg!) work as far as I can see (and I see in my mind's eye many things - both dark, light and inane). Bilbo certainly had no difficulty becoming a thief, and as hopefully you'd already know, dear Lovey, if you actually thought things out before you asked questions, owners of property (like myself) have always firmly believed that all thieves are 'heartless'.

The judgement then: Frodo wins - but only on a technicality. He at least set out with laudable intentions, however heartless the final attempt. (Bravo Sam! I say! Yes I do say it!)

(In Australia, I might explain, 'heartless' is a synonym for 'gutless', i.e 'weak', though more often expressed (usually in regard to Sport and Englishmen) as follows: "The bloke's got no heart!"Wink Smilie.

with Especial Affection
Wise Odo
I have a question! They're quite simple and the answers are probably right under my nose, but I guess my nose is too big to see them :lol: :roll:
Does Elrond ever use his foresight? Where do we discover he has foresight?
Also, why was Arwen's fate tied to the ring's?

Easy questions, yet I've managed to lose sight of the answers.
Now Tin, I won't stand by why anyone, including [i:io5vumoj]you,[/i:io5vumoj] call you Big Nose! It's just not on, okay! I'm sure your nose is small and petite and cute as a button (like a bunny rabbit's).

As to your questions, you're being a bit cheeky asking more than one at a time, but as it's you, I'll forgive you this time! (As if anyone could be cross with you anyway?)

Does Elrond ever use his foresight?
Sometimes (apparently).

Where do we discover he has foresight?
Somewhere or other. If Tolkien was still with us, I'd ask.

Also, why was Arwen's fate tied to the ring's?
Perhaps you should really ask: [b:io5vumoj]Why [i:io5vumoj]wasn't [/i:io5vumoj]Arwen's fate tied to the ring?[/b:io5vumoj] The answwer is, of course: I don't know. Nobody does. My best guess is that Tolkien thought there was enough pathos in the LotR as it was.

Actually, Tin, Arwen's fate was bound up with her plying her trough to that manly chap.... ah name doesn't come immediately to mind... oh yes! Viggo Mortensen! Handsome chap. Don't really blame her. Reminds me of meself, he does. Though we Banks from Rushock Bog (below Needlehole) are somewhat shorter of stature.

I hope these answers satisfy your curiousity. (Your questions were excellent, I must say, but what else would one expect from someone with a nose as cute as yours?)

with Deepest Affection,
Wise Odo
:oops: :lol: Ur right Odo i don't have a big nose, i was using it as a figure of speech. An elongated metaphor.
And I suppose that they weren't stupid questions if not even Wise Odo could find a direct answer <img src='/images/smileys/bigsmile.gif' border='0' alt='Big Smile Smilie' />
One must pay every question it's proper respect, dear Tin, and so if there is no definitive answer to a question, one must not pretend to have a definitive answer - that's logic!

As to your nose, no matter what you say, I bet it's lovely. I must admit, I don't know what shape or size a [i:1xmgep4l]metaphorical[/i:1xmgep4l] nose would be, but seeing we're talking about your nose, I'm sure [i:1xmgep4l]'metaphorical' [/i:1xmgep4l]in this case must be defined as: 'lovely of shape, perfectly sized."

As to any [i:1xmgep4l]elongatedness[/i:1xmgep4l] involved - I'm sure your nose is no longer than it needs to be and is practically perfect in every way (with apologies to Mary Poppins).

Admirer of Fine Noses,
Wise Odo
Tinuviel;

I haven't half the wisdom of Odo, nor nearly as fine a nose (his is so finely drawn it seems to only exist as a platonic shadow), but I did offer a humble attempt to answer your question when you asked it once on the LoTR forums. If you missed it, here it is again:

"Since nobody answered Tinuviel about Arwen's fate being tied to the rings: It's because her father and grandmother have 2 of the elven rings, without which they may have given up and left middle earth long ago (as in fact they did once the one ring was destroyed and their rings lost their power). If they leave, Arwen is abandoned because as a [newly minted] mortal she cannot join them. Nonetheless, once she became mortal she had to hope for the defeat of Sauron via the ring, for she could no longer escape into the west."

It doesn't have the Zen profundity of Odo's answer, but I try my best.
Ah... all my Zennyness was gathered over many years of thinking and living, and then more thinking. But I must say, the rudiments of wisdom begin to glow within you and can be seen as a rosy emanation that those who have eyes to see can see, though only in a dark room (a metaphorical room smelling of roses and fishes) with a mirror at the front and a door at the back which opens into a corridor with a shadowy person passing by, though briefly and iadequately espied, and only seen by the forementioned eyes.

I must say, dearest Halfwise, the way you progress, you'll be up to three quarters in no time (but please don't be hasty!)

Wise Odo

NB My nose of course is very fine and delicate and so humbly modest it hardly exsts - and only seen, even then, by an eye of especial sightingness. I hope one day you'll obtain especial sightedness and hold high hopes of it, but that journey is your journey, not mine, and I cannot take it with you. (I also can't remember now if you turn right or left at Alberkerkey, nor even recall how you spell it). As to any nose being a Platonic shadow.... well, dear Halfwise, please be careful, for you may inadvertently offend someone... I am still flesh and blood, you know!

Ah! As a Wise Man once said: "The road goes ever on and on..."
Wow- your very own thread Odo- my congratulations to your elevated status as guru! Does this mean I can ask tricky questions of you? If so I'm still looking for an answer as to who the Witch-king was originally and who he was King of before he got his ring. And just to annoy (cause I know there's no canon answer)- how did the Black Riders cross rivers that had no bridges- and I won't accept "carefully" as an answer!
Yes - you are quite right, My Tyrant - no one knows who the Witch king of Angmar was - not even Middle-earth's greatest historian, J.R.R. Tolkien. (Alas! I know by reading between the lines that you had a secret hope I would know who this mysterious and evil Numenorean was, but I have not The Sight. My wisdom is born of long study of the inner workings of my mind, natural intelligence and life's experience, not of psychic or spiritual enlightenment! I feel for you and hope I have not disappointed you, but I am but a Man - however wise - after all!)

As to the Black Riders, I suspect you know the answer, but play dumb for comic effect! Of course the answer is: they rode many miles to find bridges and fords to cross! (Bilbo would call your riddle a "chestnut" I believe!)

And think: this inability to swim across rivers was fortunate for Frodo, Sam, Pippin and Merry at the Brandywine, as you know full well. Indeed, you hint neatly: the Black Riders were [i:1pkvr1df]careless [/i:1pkvr1df]at The Ford, and to their Master's great cost!

Wise Odo
Dear wisest of all Odos, please answer this question that has long perplexed me.

If elves are immortal, they must not age, at least not after a certain point. So what apparent age do they reach before they keep the eternal bloom? Do elven parties run into problems because they are always carded while trying to buy ale at the corner store? Does this give us mortals a chance to be invited to an elven party as a ploy to have us supply the ale?

I was just wondering, in a hopeful sort of way.
Here is a segment of the Elf wikipedia page that should answer your questions Halfwise :mrgreen: :

[b:2z4hxjei]LIFE CYCLE OF ELVES:[/b:2z4hxjei]

As told in The History of Middle-earth and in Tolkien's Letters, Elves had a different life cycle from Men. Most of the following information strictly refers only to the Eldar, as found in his essay Laws and Customs among the Eldar, found in Morgoth's Ring.

[b:2z4hxjei]Early life[/b:2z4hxjei]
Elves are born about one year from their conception. The day of their conception is celebrated, not the actual birthday itself. Their minds develop more quickly than their bodies; by their first year, they can speak, walk and even dance, and their quicker onset of mental maturity makes young Elves seem, to Men, older than they really are. Physical puberty comes in around their fiftieth to one hundredth year (by age fifty they reach their adult height), and by their first hundred years of life outside the womb all Elves are fully grown. Elven bodies eventually stop aging physically, while human bodies do not.[18]

[b:2z4hxjei]Sexuality, marriage, and parenthood[/b:2z4hxjei]
Elves marry freely and for love early in life. Monogamy is practiced and adultery is unthinkable; they only marry once (Finwë, first High King of the Noldor, was an exception, as he remarried after his first wife died).[18]
Spouses can choose each other even long before they are married, thus becoming betrothed. The betrothal is subject to parental approval unless the parties are of age and intend to marry soon, at which point the betrothal is announced. They exchange rings and the betrothal lasts at least a year, and is revocable by the return of the rings; however, it is rarely broken. After their formal betrothal, the couple appoint a date, at least a year later, for the wedding.[18]
Only the words exchanged by the bride and groom (including the speaking of the name of Eru Ilúvatar) and the consummation are required for marriage. More formally, the couple's families celebrate the marriage with a feast. The parties give back their betrothal rings and receive others worn on their index fingers. The bride’s mother gives the groom a jewel to wear (Galadriel's gift of the Elfstone to Aragorn reflects this tradition; she is grandmother to his betrothed, Arwen, Arwen's mother Celebrían having left Middle-earth for Valinor after grievous psychological injury after her capture by orcs and liberation by her sons).[18]
The Elves view the sexual act as extremely special and intimate, for it leads to the conception and birth of children. Extra-marital and premarital sex are unthinkable, adultery is also unheard of and fidelity between spouses is absolute. Yet separation during pregnancy or during the early years of parenthood (caused by war, for example) is so grievous to the couple that they prefer to have children in peaceful times. Living Elves cannot be raped or forced to have sex; before that they will lose the will to endure and go to Mandos.[18]
Elves have few children, as a rule (Fëanor and Nerdanel were an exception, conceiving seven sons), and there are relatively sizeable intervals between each child (but see below for notes on Elvish birth rates in Middle-earth versus in Aman). They are soon preoccupied with other pleasures; their libido wanes and they focus their interests elsewhere, like the arts. Nonetheless, they take great delight in the union of love, and they cherish the days of bearing and raising children as the happiest days of their lives.[18]
There seems to only be one known example of extreme marital strife in Tolkien's mythology, that of Eöl and Aredhel, in which the latter actually left the former without his knowledge, resulting in Eöl ultimately killing her. However, this marriage was far from typical of the Elves.

[b:2z4hxjei]Daily life[/b:2z4hxjei]
The Elves, particularly the Noldor, preoccupy themselves with various things such as smithwork, sculpture, music and other arts, and of course, what to eat. Males and females can do almost everything equally; however, the females often specialize in the arts of healing while the males go to war. This is because they believe that taking life interferes with the ability to preserve life. However, Elves are not stuck in rigid roles; females can defend themselves at need as well as males, and many males are skilled healers as well, such as Elrond.[18]

[b:2z4hxjei]Later life[/b:2z4hxjei]
Eventually, if they do not die in battle or from some other cause, the Elves of Middle-earth grow weary of it and desire to go to Valinor, where the Valar originally sheltered their kind. Those who wish to leave for the Undying Lands often go by boats provided at the Grey Havens, where Círdan the Shipwright dwells with his folk.

[b:2z4hxjei]"The third cycle of life," aging, and facial hair[/b:2z4hxjei]
Despite Tolkien's statements in The Hobbit that Elves (and Hobbits) have no beards, Círdan in fact has a beard, which appears to be an anomaly and a simple oversight. However, Tolkien later devised at least three "cycles of life" for Elves around 1960; Círdan had a beard because he was in his third cycle of life. (Mahtan, Nerdanel's father, had a beard in his second cycle of life, a rare phenomenon.) It is unclear what these cycles exactly are, since Tolkien left no notes further explaining this. Apparently, beards were the only sign of further natural physical ageing beyond maturity.
Nevertheless, Tolkien may have ultimately changed his mind about whether Elves had facial hair. As Christopher Tolkien states in Unfinished Tales, his father wrote in December 1972 or later that the Elvish strain in Men, such as Aragorn, was "observable in the beardlessness of those who were so descended", since "it was a characteristic of all Elves to be beardless".[19] This would seemingly contradict the information above.
Elves sometimes appear to age under great stress. Círdan appeared to be aged himself, since he is described as looking old, save for the stars in his eyes; this may be due to all the sorrows he had seen and lived through since the First Age. Also, the people of Gwindor of Nargothrond had trouble recognizing him after his time as a prisoner of Morgoth.

[b:2z4hxjei]Death[/b:2z4hxjei]
Elves are naturally immortal, and remain unwearied with age. In addition to their immortality, Elves can recover from wounds which would normally kill a mortal Man. However, Elves can be slain, or die of grief and weariness.
Spirits of dead Elves go to the Halls of Mandos in Valinor. After a certain period of time and rest that serves as "cleansing", their spirits are clothed in bodies identical to their old ones.[20] However, they almost never go back to Middle-earth and remain in Valinor instead. An exception was Glorfindel in The Lord of the Rings; as shown in later books, Tolkien decided he was a "reborn" hero from The Silmarillion rather than an individual with the same name. A rare and more unusual example of an Elf coming back from the Halls of Mandos is found in the tale of Beren and Lúthien, as Lúthien was the other Elf to be sent back to Middle-earth — as a mortal, however. Tolkien's Elvish words for "spirit" and "body" were fëa (plural fëar) and hröa (plural hröar) respectively.
Eventually, their immortal spirits will overwhelm and consume their bodies, rendering them "bodiless", whether they opt to go to Valinor or remain in Middle-earth. At the end of the world, all Elves will have become invisible to mortal eyes, except to those to whom they wish to manifest themselves.[18] Tolkien called the Elves of Middle-earth who had undergone this process "Lingerers"[18].
The lives of Elves only endure as the world endures.[18] It is said in the Second Prophecy of Mandos that at the end of time the Elves will join the other Children of Ilúvatar in singing the Second Music of the Ainur.[21] However it is disputable whether the Prophecy is canon, and the published Silmarillion states that only Men shall participate in the Second Music, and that the ultimate fate of the Elves is unknown. However, they do not believe that Eru will abandon them to oblivion.

[b:2z4hxjei]GB[/b:2z4hxjei]
You may discern now, Halfwise, why I find GB such an eccentric (yet adorable) fellow!

Now, Halfwise, you seem to have done some deep and wily thinking in thinking up your thoughts on this (which is to be commended) but please don't try to turn this Thread into a farce in future! It does not become you! Irrespective of your (slightly?) disrespectful approach, I will answer as seriously as I can.

The Elves become fully formed when they become fully formed, that is, once puberty is complete. Once grown-up they remain unchanged. As an example of this, young elvish wives remain as beautiful and nubile as the day their husbands met them. This, of course, contrasts markedly with mortal lasses (at least, at my house).

As to all this [i:1fxpm41z]carding [/i:1fxpm41z], you know full well that the Elves in Tolkien had no such system. The whole suggestion is silly and anachronistic, and you know it. As to Humans ever being invited to Elvish Feasts, this would seem to occur vary rarely in Middle-earth, though it does seem to occur more often in other parts of the Perilous Realm. I have yet to find an instance of it ever being B Y O.

I must say, you are not unlike Mr Tyrant, Halfwise, in that you seem more intent on teasing or distracting me, or making quirky little jokes that no intelligent mature adult finds amusing, than seeking sound answers to the Tolkien mysteries that trouble you. Do you fear that in revealing your inadequate knowledge of canon that you might sound silly? My, my, to me, in the short time of our acquaintance, you have always sounded silly. The secret is out. But you are adored in spite of it! In fact, I adore you, just like I do GB, because of it! "But for the Grace of God, go I," you see!

Remember! Not all of us are Wise in Things Tolkien. I am myself minded of the words of Socrates: "The more I know the less I know." In this, I guess, we are all equal (though, of course, some of us are more equal than others!)

Wise Odo
O' Great and Wise Oracle that is Odo, dost thou not recall that this very thread was FOUNDED in the spirit of the Irascible and Farcical Wit of the esteemed Trickster Lester Cat <img src='/images/smileys/wink.gif' border='0' alt='Wink Smilie' /> ? Let not thy new found Glory and Elevated Status swell thy beloved head (it already appears rather elongated as it is :P ). If you aren't careful, our new friends might actually take your gentle chiding seriously, not being able to see your tongue hidden firmly in cheek :lol: .

In the spirit of our apparently youthful friend's half-jesting, yet clearly hopeful, question, I should remark that he would find rare the comforts of most Elven-homes and feastings. Yet were he, as a mortal man, to find himself among the Elves of Mirkwood--they being the most friendly with humans in the Third Age--he would likely find himself plied with food, and with drink that would unfurl his toes.

And one should note that neither in Tolkien's time, nor especially in the ancient past, was there a particular age of abstention, to be repealed upon adulthood. Certainly children barely weaned from their mother's milk would not be plied with copious amounts of spirits, yet nor would they be entirely bereft of the sampling of Sweet Wines and Medicinal Tinctures.

The Modern era of Binge Boozing and Self Poisoning among the post-pubescent has largely been brought about by the Puritanical Posturing of Control Freaks determined to prevent youth from having any fun (fun being the "tool of the Devil" apparently). As such, youth today in the more Puritanical countries, engage in the most horrendous bouts of ill-considered alcohol consumption, under the erroneous assumption that because they have always been deprived of it, only imbibing enormous amounts of alcohol is fun. There is very little of such activity in cultures that have a more moderate approach

The lesson being, that teaching youngsters MODERATION is the key to fun. Too much of anything is poison, even water. But forbid someone to eat of the apple tree, and they will most certainly eat as many apples as they can when they think no-one is watching.

[b:3o6yf1qu]GB[/b:3o6yf1qu]
Ha! You worry needlessly, GB. Like you, I wear my boundless Wisdom lightly! But you're right (and I do recognise the true import of your words), one must be careful not to become overweening when leading horses (or foals) to water.

Btw you have sparked a vivid memory. I recall a time when everyone I know called me "bird brain." I, as any Wise person would, took this to mean that they believed me to possess a simplicity of natural thought and a clarity of vision and a pure Spirit close to God. One, you could say, deep in His counsels (and me an Agnostic! Oh the irony!).

Later I dscovered they did not mean that at all!

We, of course, can see how foolish those numerous friends and family and work mates and casual acquainances and chance passersby were, but all was not lost. For you see the lesson was that Few people are Wise but many are Jealous. And, yes, I quickly realized that I must rise above the riff-raff whilst remaining truly humble.

So fear not, Joyous Beard, my (somewhat elongated) head shall remain unpuffed! But sincere thanks for the timely word of caution!
There once was a Taoist priest who strove all his life to understand the Tao. One day he took in a Shaolin student who had left the Temple and fallen in with rebels against an Evil Warlord. The Evil Warlord wiped out all the rebels but the Shaolin student. For a time the student went Mad with grief, and behaved as a simpleton. In his simplemindedness he saw Nature as it truly was, free from his preconceptions. Having finally seen through Nature the young student understood the Tao and came to his senses, then killed the Warlord freeing the locals from his Tyranny, returned to the Temple, and became a Master.

The Priest pondered how it was that he, who had studied the Tao all his life, could not yet understand it; and how the student, in his simpleminded state, could become so Wise and discover the Tao in a matter of weeks. <img src='/images/smileys/wink.gif' border='0' alt='Wink Smilie' />

[b:3hll8fm0]GB[/b:3hll8fm0]
Aha! So you have been called a "bird brain" too!

We are brothers then.
Takes one to know one. :mrgreen:

[b:23z0dlnd]GB[/b:23z0dlnd]
I sometimes wonder if that is [i:26ehjtqr]always [/i:26ehjtqr]true.

Yes, even I, Wise Odo!
Nothing is ever certain.

(I wonder how long we can keep up a conversation with pithy aphorisms).

[b:1bviub33]GB[/b:1bviub33]
I don't know, but if you had a list I could refer to...
Brilliant, I found a website dedicated to Pithy Aphorisms :mrgreen: :

[url:2vagmtn1]http://www.aphoropedia.com/[/url:2vagmtn1]

[b:2vagmtn1]GB[/b:2vagmtn1]
I'm beginning to feel uneasy about this 'lists' compulsion you have!
I just like to have sources ready to refer to when I can. I can't rely on memory all the time <img src='/images/smileys/wink.gif' border='0' alt='Wink Smilie' /> .

[b:3ex2hv22]GB[/b:3ex2hv22]
I rely only on my intuition. I don't trust sources. I think this is how I got so wise.

Actually, we have lost our way a bit on this thread. It was set up for the less Wise to ask me questions, wasn't it? (I actually can't remember why it was set up, because I can't remember anything unless I remember it).

I hope you haven't scared people off btw; what with all your book learning and all. Folk on this thread (I've found) are a bit [i:1mum0qbk]down home[/i:1mum0qbk], if you know what I mean, and they don't so much want an intellectual discussion as receive [i:1mum0qbk]actual[/i:1mum0qbk] definitive answers to their questions from Wise Odo. I mean that humbly.

Wise Odo
Here's sort of a question for you, well really more a desire for your opinion. Gandalf goes to see Sauraman without it appears any suspicion of Sauruman's treachery- yet elsewhere in the text it is clearly implied there was previous between these two as well as between Galadriel and Sauruman. And given Sauruman opposed both the searching for Isildurs remains -unsurprising as he'd already nicked them- and the removal of Sauron from Dol Guldur Gandalfs attitude when he rides to Isengard does not seem very wise for one of the Wise. What you reckon? To much pipeweed?
I suppose The Oracle should get a whack at this one before I put my tuppence in <img src='/images/smileys/wink.gif' border='0' alt='Wink Smilie' /> . Let's see whatcha got Odo The Magnificent! :lol:

[b:26k0s3qb]GB[/b:26k0s3qb]
Yes, I appreciate your tact and insight about my methods, Mr Tyrant.

Yes, I prefer giving my gut [i:2irc474r]opinion [/i:2irc474r] to wasting people's time spruiking a whole lot of knowledge (so called) that I might have gleaned from the close examination of Tolkien's texts, or derived from life experience, or from deep readings of ancient and modern philosophic texts or treatises on Myth and Legends.

Yes, I know some people prefer that method - and there are [i:2irc474r]other [/i:2irc474r] threads where they can use it! But this is not [i:2irc474r]that [/i:2irc474r]kind of thread, as you know.

Yawwwwwwwn! Oh excuse me, don't mean to be rude, but I do find all those careful arguments, and all those appeals to logic and factual accuracy a little dull... Certainly not the kind of thing I like to see on a vibrant and exciting thread like this!

As to Gandalf, wise as he was, Saruman was the Head of their Order (I think Saruman was originally in Slytherin), and I dare say Saruman took Gandalf asside at some point and whispered: "Look, Old Gandy, I'm working on a few things - for the war effort , you know - but just in case you get caught by the evil servants of He Who Probably Shouldn't Be Named while you're traveling all over the place sticking your big nose into other people's business - well, the less you know the better, what! Remember, loose slips loose tits!"

As to Galadriel - well, I believe Sarauman had a lovely collection of gowns - the one he wore in the movies was just gorgeous, don't you think? How could any woman not be distracted by such fine clothing? He might even have offered to show her his ring (I assume he had one of his own). If that offer didn't put her off asking too many delicate questions, what would?
Not bad Odo. Saruman, definitely a Slytherin type :lol: .

My own view is that though Saruman was noticeably becoming more arrogant, Gandalf quite simply couldn't bring himself to believe that Saruman had actually turned to the Dark Side until he finally showed his hand.

[b:1yu5fgtf]GB[/b:1yu5fgtf]
You raise an interesting question, GB. Saruman obviously went to the Dark Side, but when Gandalf defeated Saruman (in the book) the former clearly received the latter's portion of The Force, but did he also receive Saruman's portion of the Dark Side as well?

A short answer please, GB. Let's not start going off on tangents again....!(You've got a history of doing that, at least that's what's being said on aother thread!)

Wise Odo
That's an interesting question Odo, and as I don't think there are any specific canon references, an open one. But we can speculate.

Now in my own personal view, based on Eastern Concepts (which Star Wars also drew upon), a BALANCE of Forces is necessary for Wholeness. But Tolkien was a Roman Catholic Christian, so his conception of what occurred would be different. In a Christian view, someone who received all that Power would likely be overwhelmed by its Dark Attributes unless they were a Holy Being.

Gandalf is arguably such a Holy Being. As such, his own PURITY (by the Grace of Eru) would wash away the Darkness from the Power, in essence Purifying it. This would be akin to a Baptism washing away Sin. The Power, thus converted from Negative to Positive, could now be wielded by by a Being of the Light.

[b:2puryjwv]GB[/b:2puryjwv]
Interesting as always- if typically odd for the Odo thread- but can't let your comment pass GB; "based on Eastern Concepts (which Star Wars also drew upon)" don't think its fair to mention sources for the Force without giving a nod to Carlos Casteneda seeing as the bulk of Yoda's dialogue in Empire comes from the character/person (take your pick) of Don Juan. As to Gandalf always felt he had a bit of the Dark side in him or else he would not have had any temptation for the Ring.
I'm very much a fan of Casteneda, but he was quite the Trickster. Most of his ideas are based on Eastern concepts and techniques with only a veneer of Native Meso-American Shamanism. He actually had very little knowledge of REAL Yaqui Shamanism. But I still think a lot of his practical information is valid, if not his "anthropological" "scholarship". Much of his information about the Sonoran desert, for example, has long been debunked. But I can't reiterate enough, that I think his metaphysical concepts and techniques are legitimate in and of themselves.

As to Yoda's connection, that can certainly be inferred (and many have thus speculated on the internet), but I've never heard Lucas acknowledge any Castanedan influences. He has however, time and again, acknowledged Eastern Thought, and Joseph Campbell, with only a tip of his hat to Shamanic Practices (which DO have much in common with Eastern Thought).

In brief, one will find much more legitimate knowledge of Indigenous American Shamanism and their Psychotropic practices in the scholarship and speculations of Terrence McKenna.

If we take Tolkien at his word, then the Powerful (Gandalf, Galadriel etc) were MORE susceptible to the Ring's influence regardless. Though I must concur with you, that I personally felt Gandalf embodied an appropriate Balance of Forces.

[b:1vabawjs]GB[/b:1vabawjs]
You know GB it never even occurred me you might not know the works of Casteneda, and rightly so! What an encylopiedic mind you possess- you are of course right as to 'authenticity' of events as related but I've always viewed dismissing the whole works out of hand as a case of throwing the baby out with the bath water- bit like how I view the Bible actually- besides I learnt lucid dreaming from those books amongst other things-but if memory serves there one or two lines in particular from Yoda about luminous beings which are suspiciously close to Castenedas wording, and I may be wrong but I don't think Lucas wrote the script for Empire just laid out the story. - wow this is off topic, even more so than usual, so in a desperate attempt to get back to Tolkien I will agree with you on Gandalf and state the obvious, that a purely good Gandalf would not have been as interesting a character.
I should probably PM you, but your comment about "luminous beings" can be tied in to Tolkien as well.

The roots of Illuvatar are "enlightening" <img src='/images/smileys/wink.gif' border='0' alt='Wink Smilie' /> , to say the least: Illu-Vatar--the Illuminated Father. Similarly, George Lucas names Anakin the opposite: Darth Vader--the Dark Father. In any case, the concept that at "higher planes" of reality, we are all beings of Light, is nearly Universal to ALL the Esoteric Schools (or Mystery Schools) of the world's religions. The concept can be found in Platonic thought, Gnosticism (and other esoteric forms of Christianity), Hinduism, Buddhism, Qabbalistic Judaism, Sufism, Shamanism, and on and on. Tolkien (and CS Lewis) were quite aware of these Universal connections. Likewise so is George Lucas.

Modern physicists, such as Fred Alan Wolff, also say much the same thing. And I think in the end, the Holographic Hypothesis regarding the nature of the Multiverse will win the day.

[b:3vzoldix]GB[/b:3vzoldix]

PS: Castaneda was my introduction to lucid dreaming too, though I quickly discovered Stephen La Berge and Dr William Joy (among others).
I am totally in agreement with you GB on both the luminous beings being universal thing and your recommended further reading on lucid dreaming. The reason I associate Yoda's words with Casteneda is they say it in a very similar way- suspiciously similar one might say- however I cannot be certain of this as Yoda's exact words are no longer imprinted on my mind and my Casteneda collection is missing bits and have undergone almost as many bizarre happenings as the man himself- thus making looking stuff up for reference tricky.
Good thing this Odo thread- given the great personage he is, its a place typically Australian- short on rules- so I suppose despite the non-Tolkien nature of it we can't go off topic.
But just in case, "Oh great prophet of OZ- much better than that fraud wizard bloke behind the curtain- tell me- if on Numenor the people were split between evil followers of Sauron- most of them- and the Kings men- a handful- why didn't evil Sauron get his lot to give the elf-lovers a right good kicking and throw them off well before the whole Golden Fleet shannigans? Not very evil of him to let a bunch of rebels live on -what by then- was his island."
Sauron's control wasn't great enough that he could move against the much-loved public figures Amandil and Elendil. He probably didn't see the rest of the Faithful as being worth the time, manpower, and potential bad publicity it would take to get rid of them until the very end. A lot had gone to Middle-earth anyway, and the rest were moved to Romenna. Problem solved as far as Sauron was concerned. They were far too weak compared to the King's Men to be a threat.

And yes, I know I'm not Odo, but I couldn't resist answering. <img src='/images/smileys/bigsmile.gif' border='0' alt='Big Smile Smilie' />
Oh Mr Tyrant, you do wrap your chestnuts up in clever words (I don't mean that in a vulgar sense), but I [i:26vqfmbo]always[/i:26vqfmbo] see through your tricks and, of course, [i:26vqfmbo]always[/i:26vqfmbo] find your questions simple-minded and therefore easy to answer. Not that I'm suggesting you feel that way about them yourself! A surface fish no doubt thinks he swims at depth - not knowing that there are fish swimming deeper; perhaps even Wizardfish, whose shadows can sometimes be glimpsed, however distorted they are by sunlight on the water!

And good on you to have a go, Eldo, I'm not offended at all. Truth to be known, it's only Mr Beard I need be wary of - he gets a little puffed up, but don't tell him I said that! Slips everything off into metapphysics, he does, whenever he can - which I would not mind, except that he only confuses the simpler folk - as you can see from a few posts above that have popped up on this thread! (When Mr Tyrant - and a Scotsman! - starts spruiking about Castaneda, you know things are getting seriously silly).

And as to all these Thinkers visiting this thread, you are all welcome! I can be your guide as much as your teacher! Though I feel a bit like I've come home from working in the real world to find a bunch of Lefty Uni Students in my loungeroom discussing esoteric matters (and actually thinkng their thoughts have some relevance in the Real World), and using big words no one really understands and are probably made up, and dropping famous names, and smoking pipeweed they purchased from a shady chap with their scholarship money, and eating my seedcakes too boot! But I can indulge them: for once I strove and hungered after Gnosis, reading books and listening to the thoughts and theories of my friends - but only once!

Now Eldo, as to your rather lightweight attempt to answer, I advise you that this is a Wise Thread and not one where Loremasters are necessarily of much use. I mean it kindly, you did your best.

Mr Tyrant, your answer. You must think of Germany and the Rise of the Nazis. Were not most of the Germans good people who only desired a quiet life? Why did they allow Nazism to rise? We know that many of them recognized the dangers posed! The thing is, dear Tyrant, not enough got off their arses to do anything about it until it was too late to do anything about it. Some, in fact, left Germany to get away from the scourge and made new homes in other places (sound familiar?) And, of course, most of us are followers anyway. It's a Heart of Darkness kind of thing. As to Eru doing or not doing anything. Well Eru, nearly always kept his big (and no doubt [i:26vqfmbo]perfect[/i:26vqfmbo]) nose out of things. There was The Ban, of course - but otherwise he left people to do their own thing.

Maybe, all said and done, it was just Free Will copulating with Sin all over again (and we all know what happened at Sodom!)

Wise Odo

Sorry about all the edits, but sometimes my prose and grammar even makes me wince! (Luckilly, I'm Wise enough to gnowe it!)
Strangely enough, the Lore-Master's answer and the Oracle's answer seem to be in concordance <img src='/images/smileys/wink.gif' border='0' alt='Wink Smilie' /> . The Lore-Master gives us Chapter and Verse, and the Oracle gives us the Meaning :ugeek: .

It's Okay Odo, we won't tell your fellow Ozzies about your Nerdish center beneath your Crusty exterior :mrgreen: .

[b:3ui9t1at]GB[/b:3ui9t1at]
Well put, GB! <img src='/images/smileys/bigsmile.gif' border='0' alt='Big Smile Smilie' />

This thread is all about 'Meaning', and not at all about book learning, or life knowledge, or scientific experiment and testing regimes, or spiritual enlightenment, or any other shallow rudiment you could possibly think of!

You know, for your benefit, I'm inclined now to discuss the famous Wizardfish - but I also know that this will only lead one such as you (and cetain others - possibly with kilts) into the metaphysical realm again - and this is NOT the thread for that kind of thing, so I will tactfully refrain from doing so!


(You know, on any other thread, Eldo would seem wise. I mean it kindly, he did his best! Please don't tell him I said that!)
Btw GB, I need air a grievance. Please don't call me an "Ozzie" anymore! I am, in fact, an "Aussie" (pronounced "Ozzie"Wink Smilie, so please try and be a little more thoughtful in future.
My apologies Odo. Henceforth I shall endeavour to be more PC <img src='/images/smileys/wink.gif' border='0' alt='Wink Smilie' /> .

[b:2susdxho]GB[/b:2susdxho]
"I always find your questions simple-minded and therefore easy to answer" - ah Odo, the wise man always words his questions in light of the Oracle. As to your reply, Nazi's huh? Think I preferred Eldorion's lore based answer- even though I'm not sure I agree- who where they popular with the other 20 Kings Men?- they cant have been popular after the fall but before the downfall- everyone else had renounced all that elvish trickery and embraced the darkness!
Oh Mr Tyrant, as to: "I always find your questions simple-minded and therefore easy to answer." I did mean it kindly. But never fear, you have not offended me. I well know how prickly you Scotsmen can be! I find it an adorable trait, actually - very Dwarvish! But I feel honor bound to say that [i:2ltf6fg1]truth[/i:2ltf6fg1] is sometimes something independant of [i:2ltf6fg1]'preference,' [/i:2ltf6fg1]Mr Tyrant. (And if I have insulted any Nazis, I do apologise).

Wise Odo
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