<<          >>
I'm certainly not Wise though. I just remember much and read more. And I like thinking.
If you like I can look for the exact quotations later when I am able.
I don't have any exact statistics, and in fact I don't think any exist, but I will read through the Akallabeth again as soon as I can (later this afternoon, probably). I'll also check LotR: Appendix B.
(Btw, and just between you, me and the gatepost, I liked that comment of yours about [i:3pwimepj]applicability [/i:3pwimepj]and [i:3pwimepj]allegory [/i:3pwimepj]. But please don't let anyone else know I was impressed with your comment, it won't be good for my reputation you see - you know, being seen to tip my cap to anyone else on this forum, I [i:3pwimepj]am [/i:3pwimepj]Wise Odo all said and done...(and if a certain kilted chap finds out, he'll find some way to use it as ammunition against me. Oh he will! He's [i:3pwimepj]that[/i:3pwimepj] sort! I feel it in my waters!)
[i:z0gzp4qj]Discussions! [/i:z0gzp4qj]Who'd have thought it? What will the younger generation come up with next
We know from Appendix B that Sauron was brought to Numenor in S.A. 3262, the Great Armament began in 3310, and the Downfall in 3319. It does not, however, give a specific date for the corruption of Pharazon, grouping that mention with the rest of the annal for 3262. The Silmarillion, Akallabeth, however, tells us that after Sauron was brought to Numenor, "ere three years had passed he had become closest to the secret counsels of the King; for flattery sweet as honey was ever on his tongue, and knowledge he had of many things yet unrevealed to Men."
My reading of the text suggests that Pharazon turned to the worship of Melkor not long after this point, c. 3265; some 45 years before the Armament was begun. Sauron built a Temple to Melkor in the middle of Armenelos, capitol city of Numenor, and began a practice of human sacrifice there. As a close advisor to the King and leader of the new religion Sauron wielded enormous power. In fact, he was the power behind the throne in this last and most tyrannical phase of the Numenorean Empire, both in Numenor itself and across large coastal areas of Middle-earth.
Sometime in those 45 years Sauron saw to it that Amandil, father of Elendil, was dismissed from the King's council where he had sat, and Amandil withdrew to Romenna along with many of the other Elf-friends. Previously they had lived largely in the west, so the theory has been raised by some (including Helge Fauskanger of Ardalambion fame) that the Elf-friends were forcibly moved, possibly to slum areas. However, Amandil "was so noble, and had been so might a captain of the sea, that he was still held in honour by many of the people, and neither the King nor Sauron dared to lay hands as yet." He became a sort of unofficial leader of the Elf-friends in Romenna.
Not long after the Great Armament was begun in 3310, Amandil tried to sail west in an attempt to beg for help from the Valar. He did not return, and whether he was successful or not remains unknown, but the unofficial leadership of the Elf-friends passed to Elendil, who prepared them to flee Numenor if need be. When the Great Armament was about to leave Elendil was summoned to join it but he ignored the summons, and remained in Romenna. After the departure of the Armament he was almost arrested by the soldiers of Sauron to be sacrificed in the Temple, but he escaped and was not killed in the Downfall.
Throughout Sauron's time in Numenor he had played on the fear of death that pervaded Numenor. The party of the King's Men, led by the Kings of Numenor themselves, with the exception of one Tar-Palantir, had dominated the island for many centuries. They resented their mortality, envied the Eldar, and hated or disrespected the Valar. Sauron exacerbated these feelings and convinced Pharazon to build and launch the Armament against Valinor with the lie that by conquering Valinor the Numenoreans would have eternal life.
The party of the Elf-friends, to the contrary, accepted their mortality (even if they did not love it) and were persecuted by many of the later kings. Under Sauron that persecution increased significantly, and many were sacrificed in Sauron's Temple to Melkor. Amandil and Elendil were lucky to be high profile (coming from one of the oldest and most powerful noble families in the realm) and well-liked enough that it would be difficult to arrest them until the very end.
I hope this answers some of your questions. I really suggest getting a copy of The Silmarillion and reading it; it's full of great stories, and the Akallabeth is one of the best.
Btw what you say reminds me of a certain epoch of modern history, though it might not be applicable, so I'll say no more.
Anyway, take your facts and figures and careful expositions somewhere else - this is [b:37p01l03]NOT[/b:37p01l03] [i:37p01l03]that [/i:37p01l03]kind iof thread! I commend GB here - his Origin of Hobbits is an excellent thread (but only if you like that kind of thing!)
You know, all this makes me wonder where I picked up this idea of [i:25txh767]'feeling things in one's waters'[/i:25txh767] in the first place. I think I heard something similar somewhere (no, not from Galadriel in the FotR Prologue) and it's silliness (perhaps only one aspect!) immediately attracted me. And [i:25txh767]Silliness[/i:25txh767], as you will be aware (if you've been paying attention) is the same thing to me as [i:25txh767]Wisdom[/i:25txh767]; at least it is on this thread.
Someone (probably GB, you know what he's like!) hinted that this thread might be for the Zen-minded, but if it is, I didn't mean it to be, and I apologize. I only hoped to attract the [i:25txh767]simple-minded[/i:25txh767] and the [i:25txh767]bird-brained[/i:25txh767] ...... Mmm..I'm wondering now - could it all be the same thing? (GB would know, you know. Did you know he's admitted to being a bird-brain? Wonderful chap, old GB! Wise - after a fashion - in his own way).
I'll take your simple-minded reference as a personal invite to me and those of us who desire
only to delve into your Tolkien wisdom, if I may ?
Do you know any more about 'the mouth of Sauron'? I know theres not much in the LotR
and although I've looked elswhere, I don't recall any other information about him coming
up. Perhaps you'd care to speculate as to his origins ? If not, how about your opinion of
his appearance in the ext dvd ?
The Holy Fool is closer to the Tao than the Monk--that's Zen for ya.
I've looked within but can't seem to find the answer to that.
Maybe it's more up your channel than mine?
(And should this go on the Feminism thread?)
I only hope this has been a lesson for you, GB. After all, I am here to enlighten folk, and sometimes that might require me having to be cruel to be kind (even on this inoffensive thread).
The answer is:
The Tao does not discriminate, it is most apparent when one is not Actively seeking to understand it, but simply let's go and just Feels it.
I am with the Elvish forces outside the walls of Dol Guldur. There are lot of dark gnarled old trees. And Gandalf, Galadriel, Legolas, Aragorn and about forty thousand CGI Elves on a blue screen are there too. I’m on a movie set! (This vision is so clear it seems real!)
I see The Mouth of Sauron - or an actor playing him. Hey! He looks remarkably like Odo Banks! Anyhow, he’s up on top of the wall. An imposing figure he is, but he’s probably a bit too handsome to play The Mouth. Never mind. He looks a fine actor! Maybe this is just a rehearsal. My goodness! They’ll need a lot of make-up to make him look ugly!
[i:2o445erl]Shush![/i:2o445erl] He’s saying something. I now hearken with all the power of my deepest heark. Ah! The Mouth is mouthing something...
Mouth: “Oh go away, you silly people! I fart in your general direction!” (He’s real sarcastic like and speaks with a Numenorean accent. Wonderful bit of acting; so realistic).
Gandalf: “I’ll come up there in a minute, you vulgar person. Just see if I don’t!” [Puts hand on the hilt of Glamdring which glows bluely through the sheath. It’s Ian McKellen at his brilliant best]. “I’ll pull down your breeches and spank you oh so hard!”
Mouth: “You and what Elvish army? Oh that one...! Anyhow, go away with you, you cowardly old dandy lion. If you come up here, you’ll wilt in the face of my Master’s Black Breath. It’s pretty nasty, you know. I bet you're too chicken to come up anyway, you wizened old wizard! Sauron... whoops – my mysterious unnamed Master will pluck off your petals, just see if he doesn’t!” [Unseen folk snigger in background, some with Numenorean accents].
Gandalf: “Oh enough of this nonsense! Bring forth the battering rams.... and some of those shield-like skateboards for the younger Elves!” [He whispers to Legolas who stands close by]: “Looks like you’ll be getting some practice in, Leggy,” [canned laughter] “Your skill might come in handy sixty years or so from now, you just never know!” [More canned laughter as Gandalf looks knowingly at camera].
Legolas [anxiously]: “Could be risky, Gandalf. I’ve still got a tingly finger after last night. I might not be able to slide up into that dank and lightless place!”
Galadriel [with the remnant light of Valinor shining in her eyes]: “That’s not what you said last night, oh sweet blond elf from the Murky Green Wood!”
Legolas now has that silly stunned bemused look on his face, the one he always seems to wear in the LotR movies.
Meanwhile, behind him on the blue screen the Elves shake their shields and pitch-forks in readiness for the assault.
Meanwhile, up on the battlements The Mouth turns to a mysterious unnamed shadowy person who is standing with the Witch King of Angmar’s little brother - whispers urgently: “Oh my goodness! I hope you remembered to unlock the back door, Master! The enemy has shield-like skateboards!”
Everything goes dark, foggy. And then the light comes and I, Wise Odo, am back in my lounge-room watching the Simpsons.
My goodness.... it all seems so obvious now.... So [i:2o445erl]that's[/i:2o445erl] how The Mouth gets into The Hobbit!
PJ was clever but Del Toro’s a genius!
to benefit from the great Odo's wisdom regarding Tolkien ! For me that means 'dangling at his tail' and hoping
for information !
: 'For one thing, in that position one has a chance of putting a question a second time'.
The Mouth of Sauron, who is he ? Is there a theory about him that you'd kindly share ? Would it have been he who
went to see the dwarves as mentioned in the council ?
Apologies if the question is a bit dumb... I guess I am a bit dumb !!
First, a digression and an explanation. As you know I tend to rely on intuition, imagination and a certain amount of channeling when I compile my Definitive Answers, and if I draw on my memory of sources, they are usually Monty Python, Jack Vance and sometimes even Tolkien, though even here I can't be sure. A lot of funny stuff swirls around in my mind! I utilize an arbitrary process, I'm afraid, and sometimes things don't come immediately. But as to your request for [i:3bfdwra5]actual [/i:3bfdwra5]information, and I assume [i:3bfdwra5]useful[/i:3bfdwra5] information... well, what ekes from my brain and onto this thread is whatever my mind leaks out at the time of writing...the information might be useful... you never know...
Anyhow, now that I am being (gently) pressed, here goes...
[i:3bfdwra5]The Mouth of Sauron, who is he ? [/i:3bfdwra5]
He's a man of some sort, though degraded almost of all humanity. A Numenorean to boot. I think this is suggested even in the LotR. I'm not a hundred percent sure about this, as I try not to rely on texts on this thread. (That reliance I leave with Loremasters, Beards, Physicists and a certain Scot, among others of course. There's plenty of those educated types on this Forum. I mainly leave that kind of thing to them).
[i:3bfdwra5]Is there a theory about him that you'd kindly share?[/i:3bfdwra5]
I think he is a man who turned bad under the influence of Sauron and became so gnawed by ever-present evil that he forgot his own name, subsuming his very identity within the confines of Sauron's dominating will.
[i:3bfdwra5]Would it have been he who went to see the dwarves as mentioned in the council?[/i:3bfdwra5]
It's possible. You may be right. As the Mouth of Sauron he does sound like an Emissary. It makes sense that Sauron would send a trusted servant, and not someone as evil and disembodied as a Ring-wraith on a [i:3bfdwra5]friendly [/i:3bfdwra5]embassy, though he had other evil men at his call. (You're no simpleton, Hail, you could well be on the money about him. Fits well).
[i:3bfdwra5]Apologies if the question is a bit dumb... I guess I am a bit dumb !![/i:3bfdwra5]
No, no - your questions are sound - they're not like some other questions I've been asked. And if you are dumb, it will only be in the Taoist sense as propounded by GB. To him the dumber you are, the wiser you are. (At least, I think that's what he's getting at. Hard to tell with GB!)
I hope this helps.
NB You must have got me at a bad moment... I don't think I hardly questioned your intelligence... which is not like me... I'm coming off night-shift.... probably not myself...
Heres one for you Odo, I was rereading tale of Aragorn and Arwen and it occured there's a lot of foresight going on in it. Aragorn's mum, Arwen, Elrond and indeed Aragorn himself all seem to have a sense that things are drawing to a head- in particular Elrond seems to have a strong sense that the elves will be leaving soonish and Aragorn will have his shot at being King. Now as all this rather relies on the Ring popping back up this would imply the Wise seemed to think it was due to make a return but just didnt know exactly where and when. But if so it does make dear old Gandalf seem more than a litle slow to equate Bilbo's find when it happens with the One Ring. Again the Wise don't seem to Wise! What do you think esteemed Odo?
As to your vision, jokes aside, I must say you have greatly excited me at the mere possibility
of an appearance by 'the mouth' in The Hobbit ! That's exactly what I hope will happen ! If he
does I hope they will at least give him a deliciously evil name ! The Dol Guldur scene will be pretty much
down to GDT & PJ and Sauron will have to be represented in some way after all. Enter, 'The Mouth' !! Brilliance !
Mind, if Odo Banks gets the part, I might reconsider my position on this... Great actor that Odo Banks! Can turn the [i:3u1cfg74]ridiculous [/i:3u1cfg74]into the [i:3u1cfg74]sublime[/i:3u1cfg74]! Amazing to think that a Stoor from Rushrock Bog (below Needlehole) could play a tall and evil Numenorean - versatility, what! He's better than Johnny Depp apparently, but who am I to say? Very subjective, all this, more up GB's street than mine...
And Mr Tyrant... I am taking the unusual recourse of reading Aragorn and Arwen with a view to tackling your question. I know this contradicts my usual method - but this my thread, so [i:3u1cfg74]there[/i:3u1cfg74]! [A 'blows raspberry' [b:3u1cfg74][i:3u1cfg74]Smilie [/i:3u1cfg74][/b:3u1cfg74]would be useful just now!] (Actually, I'm a bit worried that Hail Manwe has tricked me somehow into becoming a quasi-Loremaster, and I suppose I'm a bit rattled just now... [i:3u1cfg74]pseudo[/i:3u1cfg74]-Loremaster does seem to sit better with me...).
Ah! Mr Tyrant [i:1164gwd1]as things turn out [/i:1164gwd1] everything turns on the [i:1164gwd1]finding [/i:1164gwd1]of the Ring, not on any [i:1164gwd1]prediction [/i:1164gwd1]as such of finding the Ring! All the Wise Ones could read the signs of the time. The Shadow was growing. This was obvious to the Wise. The diminishing of the Elves does not really seem to be linked to the Ring in the minds of the Wise. It was more to the continuing Rise of Man. Only later does the Ring's finding become an [i:1164gwd1]agent[/i:1164gwd1] of this inevitable change in the fabric of Middle-earth, the further [i:1164gwd1]diminishing[/i:1164gwd1] of Elves. Your hints are right, the Wise don't know everything.
(I know these waters might be muddied by that bit of verse about Isildur's Bane. But who coined it? Who actually made the prophecy? Even Wise Odo doesn't know that! Maybe only Tolkien [i:1164gwd1]did[/i:1164gwd1]! Oh my goodness! Maybe even Tolkien [i:1164gwd1]didn't[/i:1164gwd1]...)
Although sadly I'm not sure I'm convinced. Elrond says to a young Aragorn;
"A great doom awaits you, either to rise above the height of all your fathers since the days of Elendil, or fall into darkness with all that is left of your kin." and later he says "She (Arwen) shall not be the bride of any Man less then the King of both Gondor and Arnor. To me then even our victory can bring only sorrow."
So either Elrond deeply suspected the Rings re-emerging in the world or he thought Aragorn would have a go at taking on the Dark Lord without the Rings reappearance- which doesn't make much sense as the Wise knew Sauron could never be destroyed so long as the Ring still existed and besides if all it took was one of the line of Isildur 'having a go' why did none of Aragorn's predecessors have a shot at it? Why remain hidden all those years if it was not to await the Rings appearance?
Dear Mr Tyrant. If the Ring was never found, Sauron was almost cetainly going to prevail. Elrond sensed (if I can put it that way) that Aragorn might yet find a way to lead Men to victory. The Ring turning up saved Man's arse in the end (tee-hee [i:2iepxnty]'arse' [/i:2iepxnty]in the '[i:2iepxnty]end' [/i:2iepxnty]tee hee!) and Aragorn's heroic leadership did play a part - but it was Sam and Frodo and Smeagol who between them got the ring destroyed!
So, to cut to the quick, Elrond could prophesy [i:2iepxnty]greatness [/i:2iepxnty]for Aragorn without necessarily tying it immediately to the Ring. Elrond only [i:2iepxnty]feared[/i:2iepxnty] Sauron would find the Ring. That means no direct tie between Aragorn's [i:2iepxnty]great doom[/i:2iepxnty] and the Ring in Elrond's prophecy.
I grant none of the Wise had a definitive view of the future but they certainly seem to have had strong suspicions and you'd think they'd at least have been on the alert for any suspicious magic rings popping up.
As to rings (tee-hee-hee!) there seem to have been a few.
One could easily think that all men and elves had one (tee-hee-hee-hee!) what with all the rings (ho-ho-hee!) in Middle-earth.
Remember, we don't have to limit them to the One and the Three and the Seven and the Nine. There might have been hundreds (hundreds of thousands if every man and elf had his own ring - ho-hee-ho-hee-hee-hee!) in Middle-earth.
Obviously, many of them were lesser rings (even hobbit-sized ones..? hee-hee-hee!) and these would not have played such an important role in events, and of course had limited magic powers - including the power to make one invisible while [i:kxq0o2p0][b:kxq0o2p0]NOT [/b:kxq0o2p0][/i:kxq0o2p0]being the [b:kxq0o2p0]One [/b:kxq0o2p0]Ring of Sauron (the [b:kxq0o2p0]One[/b:kxq0o2p0] that got bigger or smaller depending on circumstances - tee-hee-hee....!)
So the Wise might have been fooled as easily as the Not-so-Wise in the [b:kxq0o2p0][i:kxq0o2p0]end[/i:kxq0o2p0][/b:kxq0o2p0] (oh I must stop! I really must!)
Ah! I feel I'm recovering already.... back to my normal self....
It is a gift indeed you have Odo, although of what sort and granted by whom is another matter altogether
Thanks for your reply.
There I go 'waxing' all enthusiastic about possible changes for the new films when I should have
known you'd be horrified at any such thing ! On your own thread too ! Shame on me !
I guess it comes from me accepting that it's inevitable and they carry on regardless in pursuit
of the mighty buck !
But, Quasi-Odo ??