Thread: The Elves
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GB the Numenoreans certainly became more Elven, even though most of them had not a drop of Elvish blood. It's not clear what the exact process was, and how much could be replicated in the absence of Eldar or Maiar teachers, but it's definitely a precedent that supports your point.
Im not sure how elvish the Numeroreans actually were. Whether it was more a cultural elvishness or a physical one. Aragorn is of that lineage and he is clearly not very elvish when compared to actual elves except in belief and culture.
Aragorn always struck me as quite Elvish
. Not only culturally, but also in character traits and abilities. And we know for a fact that he is part Elf.
True GB but where Legolas can run over the surface of snow Aragorn has to plow through it like Boromir. He doesn't seem to have the physical attributes associated with the elves. In physicality he seems more human.
Indeed, but I suspect that he was as close to Elf as a Human could be in the Third Age
I agree GB. the elf in him was deeply hidden in his genetic code, though it comes out from time to time. Whether its the twinkle in his eye or his Kingly Valor (that IS a normal word right?) he's more elven than most
[quote="Gandalfs Beard":2l4fywp0]Aragorn always struck me as quite Elvish
. Not only culturally, but also in character traits and abilities. And we know for a fact that he is part Elf.[/quote:2l4fywp0]
Yes, he had Elf blood (if only a small amount), but he was also raised in the house of Elrond. That's gotta say something.
And I've always found it interesting that Aragron and Arwen are actually related. Yes, extremely distantly, but they're both descended from Beren and Luthien (if I'm not mistaken).
Yes, Aragorn is a direct descendant of Elros, so he and Arwen are VERY distantly related.
[quote="pettytyrant101":6duxt1wu]Aragorn is of that lineage and he is clearly not very elvish when compared to actual elves except in belief and culture.[/quote:6duxt1wu]
The Numenoreans had been declining for hundreds to thousands of years before the Fall, and Aragorn was born over three thousand years after the Fall. He's not particularly typical of the Numenoreans of the Second Age.
An interesting point of Elvishness about the old Numenoreans is that they made lesser versions of [i:6duxt1wu]miruvor[/i:6duxt1wu] and [i:6duxt1wu]lembas[/i:6duxt1wu] for long journeys (UT, Disaster of the Gladden Fields) and had a very close affinity with their horses.
And here's another family tree:
Not sure which of these are best, so heres another tree:
One can find family trees that are pretty much the same as those in the back of [i:2ndotqro]The Silmarillion[/i:2ndotqro].
. But now anyone on the board who doesn't have a copy can see it.
Looking at that last picture, I see that it says that Dior was allowed to choose between the fates of Men and Elves. I feel that I should note that he was never given that choice (it went only to Earendil, Elwing, and some of their descendants) and that we don't know how long Dior would have lived if he had not been murdered.
That's why I posted the different versions, because I was uncertain as to the accuracy
. If you find your reference can you post it?
In The Silmarillion, Of The Voyage of Earendil and the War of Wrath, Manwe declares that "this is my decree concerning them: to Earendil and Elwing, and to their sons, shall be given leave each to choose freely to which kindred their fates shall be joined, and under which kindred they shall be judged". Dior (being dead at that point) was obviously not included in that special decree, and he never had the opportunity to have the choice given to him. Hence my statement that we don't know what would have happened to him.
. Good enough for me!
My pleasure, GB.
Very useful GB. I only have an audio book version of the SIlmarillion at the moment so this is very handy.
Eldo, Eldo, Eldo...I was just looking over the chart above, and it's NOT Dior labelled as choosing a Human path...It's ELROS
. You had me going there for a while
. In any case you can rest easy now that the chart doesn't have any whoppers in it.
It's the capacity to make that choice that I'm disputing, not some hypothetical decision made by Dior:
[quote="Eldorion":1xf9s5qw]I see that it says that Dior was [b:1xf9s5qw]allowed to choose between the fates of Men and Elves[/b:1xf9s5qw].[/quote:1xf9s5qw]
Ah, I see now! You weren't referring to a specific label, you were referring to the colour code annotation to "Half-Elven".
I trust I'm in the right place. My name is Sheriff Mirabella Banks of the Shire and I am searching for my missing Uncle Odo. I do not expect he has passed the borders of our lands as yet, but in his current state of violent bewilderment, he may end up anywhere.
So, dear Elves, if you see a florid faced, waistcoated , bare-buttocked Hobbit in your forests, please contact me ASAP.
Please be careful if you approach him as he is said to be armed with an umbrella.
Thank you for your forebearance.
Sheriff Mirabella Banks,
Hobbiton Sheriffs Office
Of course, it is unlikely Mr Banks can reach Valinor (he is frightened of the sea, has no boat and has not, as far as I know, been invited) but I am very pleased you have replied so quickly. I am indeed even more pleased to make your acquaintance. I am in the process of examining this [i:556xzx7m]Forum[/i:556xzx7m] (?) and though I have found many clues to the mental processes of the many charming people who come here, I am no nearer to finding out where dear Uncle Odo has gone off to.
I must say, speaking as one Lady to another, it is nice to know there is someone else armed with feminine[i:556xzx7m] good sense [/i:556xzx7m] here; someone whom I might begin a proper correspondence with!? I hope you don't find me forward!
Thanks again for your assistance.
Not at all! the more ladies, the better. These men can get a bit, well, MANish sometimes
You say that like there's something wrong with it.
You do sound a reasonable, sensible Lady with a nose for the truth. It's refreshing to hear such a light tone mixed with such deep sensibility. Indeed, [i:3695dsm9]Men [/i:3695dsm9]are [i:3695dsm9]Mannish [/i:3695dsm9]indeed - and your statement of [i:3695dsm9]fact [/i:3695dsm9]brings with it all the associative thoughts one has when a Lady hears the term (and I'm sure you know exactly what I mean!) As a matter of fact, Hobbit males are very [i:3695dsm9]Mannish[/i:3695dsm9] too (though clearly Hobbits have no genetic relationship to Men, and any Real Hobbit will tell you that). But I digress. It's easy to do so. For it's so lovely to chat with someone who [i:3695dsm9]understands.[/i:3695dsm9]
As to Uncle Odo, things are not going well. No one has seen him, though there are stories beginning to circulate, many of them indeed, sprouting like Hydra Heads. Unfortunately, none of them appear to be true. Uncle Odo's alleged [i:3695dsm9]activities[/i:3695dsm9] are definitely NOT the BEHAVIORS of a Respectable Hobbit - and I won't be party to spreading salacious rumours or gossip. No Lady would ever do that. (We only deal in circulating the truth, however far fetched, as you only know to well). You must excuse me now, as I have another missive to write.
Dear Mr Eldorion,
Men are men, it is not their fault, and I do not blame them for being what they are. If not for an accident of birth, they too would be Ladies - members of the Superior Sex. I'm surprised at you, for Uncle Wise holds you in High Regard - as a Loremaster - and as a Loremaster you would already be availed of the Facts of Nature. Shame on you for being silly enough to pretend you are offended by what Lady Tinuviel said to you! Most of the charming people on this [i:3695dsm9]forum[/i:3695dsm9] (?) (if I am a good judge of their IQ) will surely miss the joke. Take that tongue from you cheek. Unless, of course, you do NOT hold Ladies in the Highest Regard. Surely you are not silly enough to have a contrary view of Womanhood to me!
As to Uncle Odo: I am no closer to finding him, though, as I have already mentioned to Lady Tinuviel, rumours abound about his [i:3695dsm9]activities[/i:3695dsm9]. I can barely credit the sorts of things he is alleged to have done while on the run. If true, I would be most shocked!
Please keep your ear to the ground and let me know if you hear anything. Listen to every rumour and bit of gossip - though your intellect may rebel at the idea. Who knows, even a wild goose chase may lead us to finding my poor Uncle sprawled face down in a muddy ditch! An alarming thought - and only one of the many dire possibilities that float in my troubled mind. Mr Eldorion, Uncle Odo has already missed six meals (unless he has found mushrooms or edible bark) and he may even now be feeling faint!!!
I continue to energetically make my inquiries as time may be of the essence.
!!!! The Multiple Personalities of Odo are proliferating at an alarming rate, indeed a veritable CLAN of personae. At this rate they will over-run the forum.
I know. Now we see the feminine side of the Odo clan! all we can do GB is go along for the ride and hope that soon, it will end. Maybe...
I see you are acquainted with Gandalfs Beard (I assume you find him just as hirsutely handsome as I do!) I'm hoping he will help track down Uncle Odo. The sooner the better, I say. The whole thing is becoming a farce and it does nothing for my family's reputation.
Once Uncle Odo is found, I will surely have more FREE time. Now wouldn't that be ever so nice? So, if you can flush him out, we might then meet somewhere for a candlelight dinner and a dram of Old Winyard. But NOT before Uncle Odo is found - of course!
I have been thinking about the elves in The Hobbit, amazed, always, by the unexpected depths one finds in the scene when Bilbo and Company arrive in Rivendell. The Elvish singing is joyous and chiding, even whimsical, showing a state of mind any mature adult can exhibit when they are enjoying life. They are obviously a serious people, a deeply thoughtful people, but also, like all serious folk, well aware of the absurdities of life. For instance, one laughs at their jokes at the Company's expense, light hearted they are - to a point. Yes, the Elves are being mostly whimsical, but there is [i:38ba5dmg]also [/i:38ba5dmg]a pointedness as well in what they say, an underlying suggestion of anything but whimsy. So we have joyous singing in June, an innate communing with nature in all it's summery glory, and we have a chiding of the members of the Company, some of it in whimsy, but definitely not all of it, tensions underly the Elvish jokes, "Dark" whimsy one might say, if such a thing existed!
YES! You're really starting to get the hang of Whimsy
But are you?
Now you're just being Capricious.
Are you calling me a pizza?
Capricious Pizzas? My favorite!
Are there any threads left where I won't find GB and Odo continuing to bait one another over the meaning of whimsical? Because it's definitely not a whimsical argument, its a very, very bloody silly one.
Not to mention Pedantic
It is an important argument, Mr Tyrant, even if GB is trying to turn it into something of a farce! I don't frankly care if anyone thinks me pedantic btw GB!. Philosophical questions of any sort usually go deeper and people who are surficial thinkers sigh and say: "Pedantic!" or "Boring!" Either one is willing and keen to discuss certain philosophic points - or they are not. As a sop to you flat-earth types, I am trying to bring the whole question of whimsy back to The Humour Thread, that's only proper. But it's hard when GB continues to go out gallivanting on these other threads using all the tricks of the debating trade to divert, convert and pervert my studied arguments!
There's nothing studied about your arguments, merely unfounded opinion. [size=150:3ormcyie][b:3ormcyie]I[/b:3ormcyie][/size:3ormcyie] was the one being Pedantic by painstakingly documenting my case. All you've got is "that's not the way I feel about it". Sorry, that's not an argument.
Elves! Illuvator damn you both! Elves! This is getting everywhere messed up- moderate GB!!
And just to legitimize this post. Elves- I quite like 'em (except obviously for PJ making Legolas a super hero and a w****r and turning the sun filled days of Lothlorien into a star lit Victorian fairy book illustration).
I like Tolkien's Elves too.
They embody so much I admire in Immortal folk. Wisdom, compassion, tolerance, seriousness, whimsy, bravery.... So many fascinating characteristics! You'll never find comic book Elves in Tolkiens books. Thank goodness!
Comic Book Elves? Nope? How about this:
[size=150:378ayott][b:378ayott]Why Rankin Bass version of Hobbit sucks.[/b:378ayott][/size:378ayott]
Though to be fair, I liked Smaug in Rankin Bass version.
Aren't cartoon versions (interprertations) of Tolkien exactly what Odo (and Petty?) dislike so much, GB? You are not being a mite cheeky now, are you?
Jane I loathe, despise and hate in varying measures all the versions of Tolkien's work that aren't exactly as it is in my head when I'm reading.
This, understandably, is what makes me crabbity -particularly with PJ for whom I reserve a special venom, he made it look almost exactly like it did in my head- then screwed up almost every single part of the story, characters and dialogue-oh the pain and sorrow of it. I need to go and shout at something for an hour or so now or thinking about it will make even more crabbity.
Just using Odo's point as a good excuse to post that picture Jane
. I agree with Odo and Petty's sentiments regarding how Elves should be portrayed for the most part, though I might differ with them regarding Jackson's portrayal of them (I liked it).
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GB, I [b:28izyj4m]love[/b:28izyj4m] that picture!
I am definitely going to save it.