Thread: Orcrist - The Goblin Cleaver
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My definition of Canon is not "unusual" Eldo, it is the [b:35bwazzj]literary[/b:35bwazzj] definition as opposed to the religious definition. The Silmarillion may have been edited by Christopher Tolkien (with a little help from Guy Kay), but as he himself says in the very foreword you quote from Eldo: "I have not burdened the book further with any sort of commentary or annotation." Thus the book is attributed to JRR Tolkien himself, rather than being a documentary of the evolution of JRR's work attributed to Christopher Tolkien like The History of Middle Earth series (in other words extra-textual works with Christopher's annotations and commentary). Thus the Silmarillion fulfills the literary definition of Canon. And thus the version of Orc Origins recorded in the Silmarillion are Canonical, even though they are not necessarily Tolkien's final thoughts on the matter.
My lost post went into much more detail regarding that point but I'm going to drop it for now out of sheer annoyance .
On the subject of Orc immortality I also posted. In brief, I pointed out that based on Tolkien's evolving Cosmology from more Animist forms of Paganism to a blend of Classical Paganism and Catholicism, it would be highly unlikely in Tolkien's later conceptions that Orcs would be immortal. As "Broken" or "Fallen" Elves they were fully corrupted by "Sin" and their immortality lost--much like Adam and Eve in the Garden.
And i have to agree with Eldorion again; that there is no reason to assume that Orcs had no culture and no oral histories at the very least.
However there is no Canon material verifying one way or the other, so there is room for speculation on the topic. That Orcs had extended life-spans though, is a reasonable assertion given the Canon references.
Finally, Cats are Awesome .
"The person making a positive claim must back up their claim. The "negative" in this case is merely the side arguing against the positive claim"
Eldo, this statement is absolutely correct however you are misidentifying which is the positive and which is the negative claim. I have had multiple university classes on statistics/hypothesis testing and can assure you it is a common error.
[b:30a1lnlr]In regard to the negative claim[/b:30a1lnlr]:
In this case the negative claim [u:30a1lnlr]is not[/u:30a1lnlr] based on the "not" in [orcs are not immortal] as you are saying
The negative claim [u:30a1lnlr]is[/u:30a1lnlr] based on the "not" in [orcs are not different from elves (orcs are immortal)]
[u:30a1lnlr]JUST BECAUSE A CLAIM HAS "NOT" IN IT DOES NOT AUTOMATICALLY MAKE IT A NEGATIVE CLAIM[/u:30a1lnlr]
Remember, a negative claim always hypothesises "no change/difference"
So, since you are claiming the orcs lost their immortality, that would be a change, and is thus a positive claim and bares the burden of proof.
In most if not all of the literary/cinematical uses of the word canon that I have seen, it refers to some authority: i.e., the author or the copyright holder. I don't want to get hung up on the definition, though, as I don't think it's the main issue here.
[quote:3dh3rvzd]Thus the book is attributed to JRR Tolkien himself, rather than being a documentary of the evolution of JRR's work attributed to Christopher Tolkien like The History of Middle Earth series (in other words extra-textual works with Christopher's annotations and commentary).[/quote:3dh3rvzd]
When I cite texts from The History of Middle-earth, I use the parts written by Tolkien and largely let the notes and comments alone. In this sense it is a 'purer' version of Tolkien since Christopher did not change or inject [i:3dh3rvzd]his own writing[/i:3dh3rvzd] into the main text, at least not as much. That's the thing, really: The Silmarillion as published was not written by Tolkien. The History of Middle-earth is such a messy (not meant as a put-down) anthology with internal contradictions that its not usable. In short, there isn't [b:3dh3rvzd]any[/b:3dh3rvzd] canon when it comes to the First Age. Unless we assume Christopher Tolkien knew all of his father's thoughts on the matter, allowing him to fill JRRT's shoes perfectly*, we need to make do with the imperfect situation we have.
[quote:3dh3rvzd]Finally, Cats are Awesome .[/quote:3dh3rvzd]
I'm glad we agree on this.
* I think he was the best person for the job of compiling TS and THoMe, but he's not his father, and I think we need to read all of the posthumous texts with a grain of salt, which renders the very concept of canon irrelevant.
Remember, a negative claim always hypothesises "no change/difference"[/quote:1q94hqvz]
I already spelled this out in my last post, but let me reiterate this; it's an important point. My use of the word negative was [i:1q94hqvz]only[/i:1q94hqvz] in relation to your (positive) claim - i.e., that Orcs are immortal. Your (mis)use of the Fallacy of Equivocation (using a word or phrase - in this case, negative claim, in a different way than it was previously used in a discussion) doesn't change your responsibility to provide evidence for your assertions under the principle of burden of proof. I quote [i:1q94hqvz]"The burden of proof for any position usually rests on the participant who sets forth the position. If and when an opponent asks, the proponent should provide an argument for that position"[/i:1q94hqvz] (Attacking Faulty Reasoning, Sixth Edition by T. Edward Damer, Wadsworth Cengage Learning, 2009).
[quote:1q94hqvz]So, since you are claiming the orcs lost their immortality, that would be a change, and is thus a positive claim and bares the burden of proof.[/quote:1q94hqvz]
I think you got so hung up on the phrase "positive claim" that the main point slipped by. You need to provide evidence for your assertion, not start talking about statistics.
EDIT: Tried to make this clearer and a bit nicer. I'm trying.
My point is only that Ancalagon made a claim and it his responsibility to provide evidence [b:4w0awvtr]for[/b:4w0awvtr] it, rather than challenging others to provide evidence [b:4w0awvtr]against[/b:4w0awvtr] it. Looking back, it would have been better if I had just said "claim" instead of "positive claim" so that we would have been spared the false equivocations with statistics.
EDIT: Removed some excessive snarkiness. Anyway, just see the edit to my preceding post for my thoughts on the matter.
Oh Eldo, you've become a fierce feline lately. What with that ready paw in your holster - and very quick on the claw...!
I have no desire to continue a petty argument with you and will no longer try. I apologize to you and everyone else for being stubborn and bull headed.
However, for a final clarification I did not claim anything:
"I'm not sure myself, but [u:3t53ly0x]some believe[/u:3t53ly0x] that orcs, originating from elves, are immortal and may have actually been around during the first age"
It was you (and a few others) who then claimed this was false with only speculations.
PEACE Eldo, we're on the same team here after all
Used to be Mr Tyrant's role, but lately he's become or warm and fuzzy and cuddly (cyberactively-speaking), so the job of Stubborn Bullhead would be appear to be Vacant at the moment, Mr Ancalagon. You are welcome to apply. Mind you, Eldo has become a little hardened lately - so we might have to hold job interviews! And, of course, Mr Tyrant might just be resting his crabbit, but Mr Tyrant, no one is indispensable...
Accepted, gladly. I myself apologize for reacting the way I did.
[quote:1lbmcrt1]It was you (and a few others) who then claimed this was false with only speculations.[/quote:1lbmcrt1]
I pointed out that I didn't deny that it was [i:1lbmcrt1]possible[/i:1lbmcrt1], only that it was not certain or canon. So in a way we partially agree.
There, stubborn and pigheaded, job filled.
Let's let this cool off a little bit
It's almost 2 AM here so my sarcasm detector is offline. If you're being serious ... well, let me know and I'll have a response after several hours of sleep. If you're not, thanks for filling the stubbornness quota.
Anyone who wants to challenge me to a debate on the issues of why PJ shoud be tried for High, Low and every other sort of Treason against Tolkien meet me in the LoTR threads. I'l damn well show you stubbornness and crabbitness-you're all claimed