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haha! my favorite song!!!!!!!! why not just have Luthien come in and sing all of the songs?! :roll: :lol: :lol:
Yes, where is that Wise Odo chap?????
The idea of them singing one line at a time would be good. I think somewhere Wise Odo (or was it just plain old Odo? :? ) mentioned that it should just be their voices and no music, except the musicality of their voices; which I think should be a bit gruff and 'deep throated', though not too tuneless! :lol: How the words are delivered will be important. I imagine the dwarves are having a bit of a cheap laugh at Bilbo's expense. There is a definite element of bullying involved. (Btw I wonder if in Tolkien's day this kind of thing was just plain fun, while nowadays we see the inherent bullying involved?) I don't think we should not make it seem that the dwarves are being deliberately nasty though, they are just ignorant macho-dwarves, as all dwarf-bullies are. :lol: Of course, later in the story, the dwarves grow to like and respect Bilbo, so won't bully him then. Let's face it, you don't sing songs like this against people you like and respect! Not respectable - not very nice - contemptuous even! :ugeek: :-Jane
I am an expert 'channeller' not a poet, as you know - but I'll try to help!

Now I think with the poem in question we need to do a bit of layman analysis first. Context! Context! Context!

See here! A bunch of mine-workers with wonderfully coloured beards arrive at your hobbit hole. But don't just think wonderfully coloured beards, think big muscles, craggy careworn faces and deep gruff voices - yes, archetypical dwarves or Scots! Hard working types who routinely get their hands dirty. Where are they now? I'll tell you where they are, they are in some little fussy fellow's comfortable well-apportioned middleclass hobbit-hole - not in some deep damp dangerous pit under the Blue Mountains! I bet the manliest tool Bilbo has ever held is his little pink hand is a feather duster! By all accounts, he doesn't even do his own gardening! He likes cooking though - little fop! What would the former (dwarvish) type think of the latter (hobbitish) type?

Now Bilbo is comfortable little chap. He lives in a safe well ordered world. His clothes are clean and of good cut, he has all the modcons of a middleclasss hobbit, and he does not know anything about doing it hard. Providing he has his six to twelve meals a day, he is quite content. Oh yes, and so long as his things are always kept neat - cupboards dusted, floor rugs regularly beaten, and dishes washed and neatly put away - he is happy.

The minute dwarves see Bilbo for what he is, their brows furrow, their lips curl in a cynical quiet grin, and their eyes begin to watch him with slitted amusement - amusement mixed with contempt. Very early on the dwarves form a condescending opinion of Bilbo - the little unwordly softie! So we get to the cleaning up. Bilbo makes a fuss about not being helped and the dwarves, being folk who do not shirk to work, jump up to help, but meanwhile they see an oppportunity to tease someone they do not hold in high regard, sing a 'put down' song - funny to them, deeply discomfitting for Bilbo!

Here is our starting view of the song. Remember, Bilbo must be genuinely put out - not in a ridiculous over-the-top way. If we can't feel for Bilbo, then the scene won't work! The scene must seem real. Like a Funniest Home Video show almost. Bilbo must truly fear that the dwarves might actually be vandals and carry out their chiding threats! This scene could be unexpectedly powerful and dramatic, while still being funny. We need a Great Director! Mr Tyrant, you must not fail us!

Hope this helps? Odo can help with the tintacs - I'm back off to the Respectable Threads! :geek:
What can I say Wise Odo- save that that was very wise. A perfect summing up of all we need to achieve in this scene. Sadly I will not be around for a few days to aid in this quest- so I leave it in the capable hands of the rest of you until then. Hopefully by the time I am back you will have some interesting ideas for me to get crabbity over. <img src='/images/smileys/bigsmile.gif' border='0' alt='Big Smile Smilie' />
Ok. So on we go, I'll try first.....

From Bilbo saying 'knows as much about my larder as I do'.......
We see him in the kitchen gathering up trays, plates etc.. looking flustered/annoyed - while the others are chatting away.

'Confusticate and bebother these dwarves!' says he (collecting food, facing away from the door). We see Balin/Dwalin in the doorway (he doesn't).
'why don't they come and lend a hand ?' - Balin overhears and he, along with Dwalin, Fili and Kili, enter in 'briskly?' - heedless of poor 'dazed ?' Bilbo
and 'whisk' away the crockery. Bilbo follows in with food. Everything is laid out, meal begins - random chatting - while we focus on Bilbo sitting at
the fire looking worried :? , perhaps panning around each dwarf (and Gandalf) showing his reactions from 'distressed? to, curious?' at what they're saying
( this will give us an idea of the length of time passing).
Bilbo makes to clear up - 'I suppose you will all stay to supper ?'
(Thorin) 'Of course !' - 'And after. We shan't get through the business till late, and we must have some music first. Now to clear up !'

thereupon 12 dwarves jump up and get to work.....
Seeing them piling up his prized dishes into columns and balancing them one handed, Bilbo is horrified !
He runs about after them 'squeaking with fright: 'Please be careful! Please, don't trouble ! I can manage'.

.. We have the song.. (NO music)..I see it starting with 1 dwarf shouting in a sort of 'town cryer/market trader' style ! [color=#FF4040:vuqeugb4]'Chip the glasses!....'[/color:vuqeugb4]
Then the others take up a line each (for the rest of the first verse) in a similar way. - passing the song on, like a relay. [u:vuqeugb4](there are 12 lines in the 3 verses)[/u:vuqeugb4]

.... Speeding up for the second verse (again, 1 line each), more of a melody to it (perhaps playground tease style 'pop goes the weasel ?')
We see Bilbo dashing around through-out getting more and more distressed. - The dwarves un-moved - carry on...

.. From Dwarf to Bilbo to Dwarf during verse 3 building up to a potential catastrophe as the Dwarves throw things to each other before...

...They close in toward him and together - or in 2 groups - (in quieter tones) [color=#FF4040:vuqeugb4]'That's what Bilbo Baggins hates !
So, carefully, carefully with the plates' [/color:vuqeugb4] - as the last dish is put away safely.


Bilbo slumps into a chair looking very relieved (and a bit confused) as the Dwarves pass by him with wry smiles and go out of the kitchen.


Sorry if that's a bit mixed up and I guess most of it is just quoting the book but I found it easier to do it that way so I could see what I was saying. I admit I'm not experienced at this sort of thing but I thought I should at least try and get the ball rolling. This thread has had a lot of views but it seems not many are posting so I've stuck me neck out ! Hopefully my head won't get chopped off !! :lol:
Back sooner than I expected but even so, not a single suggestion on the party scene?
Fine I'll try to get things going.
Structure is going to be important in this scene I think, we have to decide if we stick to the order of events exactly as.
The scene in the book begins with a meal which lasts several hours, until its dark. This on film is an immediate problem I think. We have just zoomed time a day to get from Gandalf on the step to the dwarves arrival- having just got things going we need to then do it again and skip several hours to stick to the book.
Following the meal there is the dishes song as they clear up followed immediately by the break of day song, and indeed several more songs and more hours pass.
Gandalf finally gets the actual meeting started and eventually gets round to the map-which is then discussed.
Bilbo then insists Thorin explain everything to him and there's is a lengthy bit of exposition from Thorin that I think needs editing for film purposes.
All the dwarfs then order breakfast and Bilbo falls asleep.

My immediate suggestion would be to keep the meal bit brief and pass less time but light it as if its later. Keep the dishes song and move some of Thorins exposition to the head of the meeting to set things out, ignore the hours that pass and get as quickly as possible to the map.
After the map I'd put the break of day song and Bilbo falling asleep to it.

Our posts crossed Hail- -and there I was berating the lack of effort. I like what you've done, particularly with how to do the dishes song.You're definitely on the right track with it I feel. It does however turn it into a choreographed musical routine but that might not be a bad thing -it is film and its hard to do a song in it with people moving about without choreographing it somewhat like a musical. But I think the time problem still exists though that I mention above for the meal. I'm not sure how to get round it though.
Feel free to carry on from where you finished Hail- it will give us a good basis to work from and hone.
Thanks Petty.
I guess I do see that song as a choreographed piece, Dwarves moving toward / away and around Bilbo sort of 'baiting' him !! - not in a 'dancey' way though.

I don't think we need worry too much about the meal scene, a few well timed cuts between Bilbo and the others could make it seem like quite a while, especially as lots of food will disappear ! You're lighting idea will be fine I (imo). We can pass more time afterwards if necessary with the dishes song etc...

As to me carrying on...
I think we can follow the book from here for quite a while:

After the dishes, we see Thorin and Gandalf doing the smoke rings and talking, the others join them and get seated. Again the clock is shown here (smoke goes past it) and we can establish the time again ! (We might need to cast this bloody clock ! :lol: ). We see Bilbo watching the smoke rings and looking wonderous as he walks in.
Perhaps we can hear what they are saying - to kindle Bilbo's interest - and pass a little more time before Thorin calls for the music ?

The mood of the room is (I think) kind of like a camp gathering - the darkness growing from outside and the 'eerie?' lighting around Gandalf, as well as the fire light.

The music begins and we get to the break of day song ( a folkish thing I guess?- Odo, help !!) - again we see Bilbo lost in thought during the music looking stirred and perhaps we can cut-away to see what he's seeing in his mind (an adventure based on what the Dwarves are singing ?) while the song goes on.
The song ends and Bilbo catches himself, back to normal and looking a bit frightened ? From then on its straight from the book, there's not too much dialogue up to the point Thorin begins his 'grandfather' story and I'm sure the guys on here will be able to edit him as you suggested Petty to keep it from being too boring for movie goers ! Im not the one to do this - Sorry for 'wimping' out, I don't know how to. :?
But the way I see it, the scene is already written <img src='/images/smileys/wink.gif' border='0' alt='Wink Smilie' />

Let's see what others have to say here and we can take it up from Bilbo sorting out the beds and falling asleep ?
Btw I wrote that first post on Sarurday and only just decided to submit it after several edits. :?


The world cup is on !! <img src='/images/smileys/wink.gif' border='0' alt='Wink Smilie' />
I have been a bit wrapped up in the football myself- tomorrow should be an interesting day and dear o dear France, what a farce.

Back to the script, my worry about using moving clock hands, burning down fires, melting candles- whatever design we use to indicate passing time is that we will be doing it 3 possibly 4 times in the films opening fifteen minutes. On the page this isn't a problem, but in film you need to establish a flow and a momentum right from the off. By having all the long time periods we are speeding up, then braking, speeding up, then braking, and I think it will feel that way to a watching audience.
It was for this reason of momentum that PJ decided in FoTR to dump the 17 years and squeeze everything together- I think he overdid it, and did it poorly, but the need was real. I think the same applies here.
If Im following rightly, the issue is the time spent from when the Dwarves arrive - tea time- and when they go to bed - after midnight !

With the meal - talking - Bilbo sitting - the dishes - the break of day song - Thorins story - the map - the outline of the plan (and Bilbo's reactions) -
Surely we can bring on the length of time lapsed fairly quickly dealing with all that ?
And even If just 1 cutaway is inserted anywhere in there we can jump forward as much as we need ? without any visual time aids such as clocks etc..

Hope My understanding is correct.

[quote="pettytyrant101":sccc3smt]I have been a bit wrapped up in the football myself- tomorrow should be an interesting day and dear o dear France, what a farce.[/quote:sccc3smt]

Would I be right in thinking you won't be cheering on England ? :?
Carry on lads. Sorry! A bit busy at moment.

Coupla points though: the time passing with burning candles and clock hands turning is fine with me. Interspaced with dwarves eating and snippets of talk would not take much film time, and be a useful way to build atmosphere. One dwarf for each line is a bit mundane for me. Also I'd be careful with throwing plates and cutlery around. I imagine realism. The 'baiting' idea is spot on, I think. I might have a crack at designing a Song Scene when I get a chance (I might have to get Wisey in to help - he thinks he knows everything and everything! :roll: Maybe Mirabella too - she'd know plenty about the ins-and-outs of dishwashing... :? ) Please don't let that stop others having a go at it!

Sorry can't be involved a bit more just now. Work is being a nuisance! Also I've pulled my finger out and got back to my own fairy-story - plenty editing to do! (I've also started a correspondence with a mysterious Scotshobbit about[i:23uny6td] his [/i:23uny6td]book and about writing generally! :ugeek: )
Due to all the interest in The World Cup and other Sports, I have split off those posts into a thread by that title and put it in the Ideas and Suggestions sub-forum. Feel free to discuss everything sports there, from Archery to Quidditch. :mrgreen:

[b:160s4k53]GB[/b:160s4k53]
Does anybody know where I might send a musical story of the Hobbit that I call "There and Back Again"? The folk opera is comprised of 13 songs each with a short introduction that advances the story for those not familiar with it. The folk opera with narration runs 75 minutes (1 CD) and is fully arranged and recorded. It features an ensemble of 16 wood, string, percussion and wind instruments.
Welcome to the forum, damagyar! It really depends on what you want to do with your composition. If you want it released, you'd need to get in touch with a recording studio, but more importantly you would - I think - need to get permission from the Tolkien Estate to release and sell it.
As you have the finished product already, you might want to try shopping it around to a distributor, and they could deal with licensing issues with the copyright holders themselves. But you'd end up sharing revenues with them too. If you want to self-distribute and make money, you should contact one of the Hobbit book publishers, and get contact information for the copyright holders from them. Once you have that, You should be able to make some kind of licensing arrangement, if it's even necessary. Some musicians such Rick Wakeman and a Swedish fellow I forget the name of at the moment have released albums inspired by LotR. I suspect that licensing was not a factor in their cases, but if you have narration and some dialogue from the book as well as original music, I think you might have to. [b:glpygogu]GB[/b:glpygogu]
Alternatively, you can contact the copyright holder of [i:1474v1nc]The Hobbit[/i:1474v1nc] - the Tolkien Estate - directly through their website. They're very permissive of fanfiction so long as it's not for profit, so there's a good chance they'd be fine with your recordings if you just put them on YouTube. [url:1474v1nc]http://www.tolkienestate.com/contact/[/url:1474v1nc]
This thread popping back up is making me feel guilty about its shameful neglect. I fear I was right when I said the party scene was going to be tricky! Everyone has shied away from it. I think I may have to return later with an attempt to boot things back into motion here.
Thank you for the feedback Eldorion. I checked with several attorneys and they are divided over the legality of permission being that the medium is so different. I figured that the studio producing the soundtrack/DVD would know who to contact, etc. It such a long and windy road. I'm just going to release it on youtube and see what happens.
[quote="Odo Banks":3247wpsj]Did I really say that? :?[/quote:3247wpsj] No, you didn't :P
Every time we start something, I get back to thinking about my own personal projects. Writing scripts is a serious business requiring a serious amount of time! Now if PJ was to approach us with fat wallet in hand, perhaps I could devote more time to this brilliant project! <img src='/images/smileys/bigsmile.gif' border='0' alt='Big Smile Smilie' />
[quote="Odo Banks":35sfalvx]In total there are 4 users online :: 2 registered, [i:35sfalvx][b:35sfalvx]1 hidden[/b:35sfalvx][/i:35sfalvx] and 1 guest[/quote:35sfalvx] Odo, you cannot hide ... I see you :twisted:
Did I really say that? :?
[quote="Eldorion":rjg7y438]Alternatively, you can contact the copyright holder of The Hobbit - the Tolkien Estate - directly through their website. They're very permissive of fanfiction so long as it's not for profit, so there's a good chance they'd be fine with your recordings if you just put them on YouTube.[/quote:rjg7y438] I followed the link and contacted the estate and publisher. Thank you for your feedback and direction.
[quote="Gandalfs Beard":2uypd7ay]As you have the finished product already, you might want to try shopping it around to a distributor, and they could deal with licensing issues with the copyright holders themselves. But you'd end up sharing revenues with them too. If you want to self-distribute and make money, you should contact one of the Hobbit book publishers, and get contact information for the copyright holders from them. Once you have that, You should be able to make some kind of licensing arrangement, if it's even necessary. Some musicians such Rick Wakeman and a Swedish fellow I forget the name of at the moment have released albums inspired by LotR. I suspect that licensing was not a factor in their cases, but if you have narration and some dialogue from the book as well as original music, I think you might have to. [b:2uypd7ay]GB[/b:2uypd7ay][/quote:2uypd7ay] Thank you for the reply. Do you have any leads on distributors? JSYK, the narration is orginal. It advances the story so that the references in the original songs are understood by all.
[quote="dmagyar":2hugqxar]I followed the link and contacted the estate and publisher. Thank you for your feedback and direction.[/quote:2hugqxar] You're very welcome. <img src='/images/smileys/smile.gif' border='0' alt='Smile Smilie' /> Best of luck with your project!
I apologize everyone, I've been very busy with school lately, I didn't even have time to recognize Tolkien's death on the forum at all! so I'm doing it now, 2 days later. RIP Mr. Tolkien, may you rest in peace knowing there are some crazy purists out there who will scold the liberals for you :lol:
The day passed me by without me noticing Tin. :oops: RIP indeed- lucky in a way he didn't live to see PJ's effort! As is probably spinning in his grave. And how like a female to remember a date!
well, actually I have the LOTR 2010 calendar... so I kind of cheated... :oops:
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