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[quote="Odo Banks":181izxfj]That is utter rubbish, GB! One may be lighter and more consistently humourousthan the other, but the whimsy (by YOUR definition, not mine) runs strongly through both.The Hobbit isn't an epic? The LotR isn't filled with the fanciful? Oh fiddlydee! We do love your whimsical ways. Yes we do! Dear old sillly billy, GB. [/quote:181izxfj]

I have continued to research the meaning of whimsy. I agree with you (me, that is) that GB is misapplying the word in the general way he does regarding The Hobbit. It's good that you (I, that is) can step back and review the arguments in such a clear sighted objective way. Well done you (me, that is). :ugeek:

Here is a big smile to prove we (us, that is) don't bear any hard feelings, GB. <img src='/images/smileys/bigsmile.gif' border='0' alt='Big Smile Smilie' />
LotR isn't filled with Fanciful Humour or oddly capricious and random seeming moments, Whimsical elements are substantially minimized. The Tom Bombadil scene is the only Whimsical scene that readily comes to mind. Though some of the Early Shire scenes have some humour, the sense of Whimsy is almost entirely gone.

Now The Hobbit does indeed have strong Epic component, and a Serious Undercurrent, but by and large the Tone is Humourous until the last chapters, and many scenes throughout the book are painted as Whimsy (even though, as we both know, underlying the Whimsy there is no Authorial Randomness). It is chock-a-block with anachronisms and occasionally seemingly odd juxtapositions. Tolkien drastically slashed these sorts of Whimsical Elements to craft LotR into something that he considered more adult.

You keep saying that some of the scenes and songs I mentioned aren't Whimsy because they are Pointed. But Pointed does not Exclude Whimsy. Monty Python sketches are seemingly entirely Whimsical and Random, yet anyone digging deeper comes to see that the sketches are often Pointed, and have Social and Political Barbs. Same with many Roald Dahl books, there's a brilliantly Satirical sketch in Charlie and the Great Glass Elevator wherein a member of the US President's cabinet enters the room with an enormous pile of papers balanced precariously on his head claiming to have balanced the budget, Whimsical yet Pointed.

To re-examine the dictionary definitions of Whimsy, one can readily see that they include at least 2 shades of meaning. One of those implies a sense of Random Humour, but the other implies a sense of Fantastical seeming Impossibilities with Humour. Both senses apply to some of the scenes in The Hobbit, but the Fantastical Sense far more-so than the Random Sense.

[b:31e8spgc]GB[/b:31e8spgc]
[quote="Gandalfs Beard":2gysjahx]LotR isn't filled with Fanciful Humour or oddly capricious and random seeming moments, Whimsical elements are substantially minimized. [/quote:2gysjahx]

Aren't Black Riders, ghost-things riding around in black cloaks, [i:2gysjahx]whimsical[/i:2gysjahx]? Aren't they [i:2gysjahx]fanciful [/i:2gysjahx]as defined in dictionaries? If we see whimsical and fanciful as synonyms, yes then the Black Riders are a whimsical creation - just like Beorn's animals are. They are of a kind.

I thought Beorn's animals fascinating creatures. Fancy such magical beasts existing in nature? I never thought of them funny or ANY sort of joke, so they don't fit [i:2gysjahx]whimsy[/i:2gysjahx] in its guise as a synonym for [i:2gysjahx]humour[/i:2gysjahx] as defined in dictionaries. I guess this might just be a question of perspective though, of point-of-view. Perhaps the idea of talking servant animals is amusing to others, and so they are [i:2gysjahx]whimsical [/i:2gysjahx]creations in the word's guise as a synonym for a [i:2gysjahx]general[/i:2gysjahx] (generic) manifestation of [i:2gysjahx]humour[/i:2gysjahx]. But then, the magical animals are no less amusing than the ridiculous idea of Black Riders. I found the animals fascinating and magical, I found the Black Riders fascinating and magical. [i:2gysjahx]Whimsy [/i:2gysjahx]all over the place - both light and dark - but only if you want to use the word [i:2gysjahx]whimsy[/i:2gysjahx] that way - I don't.

GB, In your last post there are plenty of other assertions you made, but 'll try to keep some focus, by sticking strictly to the issue of what 'whimsy' is and in what way it manifests itself in The Hobbit.

Your turn! <img src='/images/smileys/bigsmile.gif' border='0' alt='Big Smile Smilie' />
Odo, I do believe you are taking this discussion seriously! Perhaps, if you make less jokes as you go, others will begin to address your points more analytically. Your last post has focused the discussion for me. Sorry GB, but I think at last I see the point Odo is trying to make. The word 'whimsy' to me too, usually connotes an idea of lightness and farce which to me does not apply to The Hobbit, but it does obviously have wider meanings, and various meanings in fact. 'Fanciful', 'capricious', are not excatly synonyms for whimsy, they just imply (if that's a good way to put it) what the word 'whimsy' can mean.

Odo, in what you said about Black Riders and Beorn's Animals on another thread, I concur with you. You make a salient point. You're right too, when you suggest (and I'm hoping I'm interpreting you correctly here) that GB sees The Hobbit as being somewhat silly and flippant and humorous, and therefore 'whimsical', while you take it more seriously as a classic bit of literature, humorous in part, but a serious piece of literature nonetheless. Suggesting it is whimsical undermines it, for it is saying The Hobbit is farce, and not serious epic. I imagine you would call "Alive in Wonderland" [i:1sotx0lj]farce[/i:1sotx0lj] in the same way GB calls "The Hobbit" [i:1sotx0lj]whimsy[/i:1sotx0lj], and I see where your angst lies, I think. I feel slightly the same sense of offense. I admire The Hobbit as a great epic adventure, wise in many ways, and not a comedy, even if it has many comic ideas, and is obviously written in a style suitable for both the young and the old.

Sorry if I've misinterpreted anyone over this. You know, I guess you're both right in a way. However, if GB contends that The Hobbit is mainly a work of whimsy, or that the scenes he has highlighted are whimsical while much of The Lord of the Rings is not, I would have to disagree with him. Sorry, GB. The Hobbit is not Alice in the way I see Alice as being true whimsy. As to being 'fanciful', The Hobbit shares this distinction with The Lord of the Rings, and so is only whimsical in that inclusive sense.:- <img src='/images/smileys/smile.gif' border='0' alt='Smile Smilie' />Jane
At last something that sounds like a sensible post on this issue! I tried to say before you were both sort of right but Jane has put it far better than I managed. It is the lightness, silly interpretation of whimsy that I thought you originally meant GB, your broader definition might be true but I don't thin it looses that sense of lightness or silliness for it. So I can't see it applying to either TH or LoTR, they are many things but never light or just silly for the sake of it.
Yes, I understand Odo's perspective. Having read many posts on this forum now, I suspect Odo prefers The Hobbit as literature to The Lord of the Rings. I probably have special sympathy for him because I share the same view. (Hope I'm right about this, Odo! :lol: )

Petty, Odo reminds me of one of those Kings Fools - they were never fools, not really! The trouble I think Odo has, is knowing when to cut back on the silliness, because sometimes he makes sound points but they easily get lost in all the humour. Sorry Odo:- Jane <img src='/images/smileys/wink.gif' border='0' alt='Wink Smilie' />
Your cheekiness appears to be endless, Odo! :lol:
Has anyone actually bothered to READ the dictionary definitions?????? :roll:

I honestly don't understand what you don't understand.

Black Riders aren't Whimsical because they aren't Funny. Animals serving tea are Whimsical because they are "Fanciful", "Playful", AND "amusing"--which anyone who can read can see is one of the main definitions of Whimsy in ANY dictionary definition.

I get that some people don't like my use of Whimsy to describe The Hobbit, but it is entirely a correct usage of the word as it is defined...end of story.

I have gone out of my way to explain myself, and to offer compromises of sorts by pointing out that Whimsy can have more than one meaning, and asserting that there are Non-Whimsical aspects in The Hobbit. However, the meaning I am using is ENTIRELY correct in it's application to The Hobbit. Read the dictionary definitions again. Compare them to the scenes I used for examples. The only one being stubborn here is Odo.

[b:16wxj2zi]GB[/b:16wxj2zi]
I am not sure you have studied your definitions closely enough, GB. What Petty and Odo and I have agreed upon now is that your use of whimsy in relation to The Hobbit is a little off the mark, though not totally wrong:-Jane.

[i:1y8wimtv]I agree with everything Jane has said. Oh what a wonderfully clever and erudite woman she is:-Odo.[/i:1y8wimtv]

(Two can play that game, Odo! :lol: )
I don't think anyone is disagreeing with the definitions you put forward GB. This is one of those cases where I think what the majority (in this case myself, which ever Odo is about and Jane) are saying is they think the definition of whimsy is something light and frivolous. This might be wrong but its how I've always interpreted the word and it does raise the interesting question of what does define a word- what the dictionary says or how the majority use it?

And if there is an end to the cheekiness of Odo Jane I have yet to so much as glimpse it! I suspect he may be only just starting, in his own respectable way.

(Three can play at that game- but one can't be a***d, guess which!)
[quote="Gandalfs Beard":3ssfntuf]Black Riders aren't Whimsical because they aren't Funny. Animals serving tea are Whimsical because they are "Fanciful", "Playful", AND "amusing"--which anyone who can read can see is one of the main definitions of Whimsy in ANY dictionary definition. [/quote:3ssfntuf]

The animals serving tea may seem [i:3ssfntuf]amusing[/i:3ssfntuf] in a way, though not really, they lend more to an 'Aslan' interpretation than a 'White Rabbit' interpretation, I think. And when and where do they [i:3ssfntuf]act playfully[/i:3ssfntuf]?

You link all three as component parts of 'whimsy', but a definition earlier in this thread doesn't appear to supports this contention. I cite one example from the earlier quote (from an internet dictionary?):

[b:3ssfntuf]whimsy[/b:3ssfntuf]... [i:3ssfntuf]extravagant, fanciful, or excessively playful expression[/i:3ssfntuf]. There is an 'or' in the sentence, not an 'and', which, if an 'and' was there it would indeed suggest all three notions should be included in the meaning, but they are actually posed as alternatives, GB.

Are Beorn's Animals [i:3ssfntuf]'Extravagant'[/i:3ssfntuf]? No, I don't think so.

Are they [i:3ssfntuf]'fanciful[/i:3ssfntuf]'? Yes, in the same way Black Riders are, though obviously not evil like Black Riders, or [i:3ssfntuf]as[/i:3ssfntuf] evil as them - we can't be abolutely sure about this, Bilbo certrainly isn't.

[i:3ssfntuf]Excessively playful expression[/i:3ssfntuf]? I don't detect any excess in the way Toliken expresses himself anywhere in Queer Lodgings.

Your quote: [i:3ssfntuf]"Fanciful", "Playful", AND "amusing"-- [/i:3ssfntuf] I mssed it. Could you please post the whole definition again. (I might be just blind! :lol: )
Petty, our paths crossed!

I think that if we stick to the dictionary meanings we already have, they only partly can support GB's thesis about the use of the word whimsy in The Hobbit, but only in two ways that come to mind immediately.

(1) Whimsy as in being 'fanciful' in the same way all fantastic elements in stories are.

(2) There are some whimsicalities in The Hobbit (in the lightest sense). The Elves do show a slightly whimsical side of their nature, especially in regard to their jokes, Odo's right about that I think. There may be other examples. I'm sure there are. Also, in Lord of the Rings, Tom does show his whimsical side - especially prominently in his songs.

:-Jane
I agree Jane. Although for me whimsy does conjure up images of silliness and of something trivial (for some reason I associate the word with the Victorians). To regard TH as a work of whimsy would be a mistake I think, it does have moments of whimsy perhaps but something being fantastical or funny, or both at once, does not for me automatically mean its whimsical too.
You know I've told GB off before about the dangers of book-learning and Odo is quite strident on the matter and still he persists, poor Beard.
Actually, Mr Tyrant, it's Wisey who is against book learning. :roll: I'm not against book learning at all, I just prefer to think about what I read, rather than try to win debates with a pack of quotes and a heap of regurgitatted concepts and a barrage of nasty intellecual put-downs - the [b:169fa0y1][i:169fa0y1]GB Method[/i:169fa0y1][/b:169fa0y1], as I call it. <img src='/images/smileys/wink.gif' border='0' alt='Wink Smilie' /> Book-learning is fine - provided you can think clearly about what you read. :ugeek:

GB, I hope we have managed to sort out your misapprehensions, misunderstandings and delusions. Don't thank us. That's what friends are for! <img src='/images/smileys/bigsmile.gif' border='0' alt='Big Smile Smilie' />
My apopligies Odo, so easy to confuse the Banks clan! Indeed with his channeling skills what use would Wisey have for book-learning!
My apologies, I'm not really clear on what whimsical means..

Here is what I googled:
whim·si·cal (hwmz-kl, wm-)
adj.
1. Determined by, arising from, or marked by whim or caprice. See Synonyms at arbitrary.
2. Erratic in behavior or degree of unpredictability: a whimsical personality

So is whimsical like when characters act irrationally or randomly? Like that kind of humor that makes absolutely no sense but is hilarious anyway..? What would a good example be?
[quote="Fimbrethil":1qwqigjy]whim·si·cal (hwmz-kl, wm-)
adj.
1. Determined by, arising from, or marked by whim or caprice. See Synonyms at arbitrary.
2. Erratic in behavior or degree of unpredictability: a whimsical personality [/quote:1qwqigjy]

More definitions than you can poke a stick at! (I hope GB doesn't find out! :o )

"
Fimbrethil wrote also: [i:1qwqigjy]"So is whimsical like when characters act irrationally or randomly? Like that kind of humor that makes absolutely no sense but is hilarious anyway..? What would a good example be?" [/i:1qwqigjy]

Would that be [i:1qwqigjy]'nonsensical' [/i:1qwqigjy]end of the [i:1qwqigjy]'whimsy' [/i:1qwqigjy]spectrum? :ugeek:
[quote="Odo Banks":2gnev441]

Would that be [i:2gnev441]'nonsensical' [/i:2gnev441]end of the [i:2gnev441]'whimsy' [/i:2gnev441]spectrum? :ugeek:[/quote:2gnev441]

I think that would be entering the realm of moronic. :ugeek:
I actually don't think whimsy is a large component in TH's humour. Far greater is satire. Bilbo himself is not a whimsical character, but he does satirise a certain type of english mentality. The Shire itself is both a tribute to and a satitrising of english life. The dwarfs satirise greed and pride and the elves of Th seem to satirise pesonnall indulgence (they are drunk a lot).
I fear I might begin another debate about the meaning of words here and their application to TH, but I take a small amount of exception with your use of the word 'satire', Mr Tyrant. I would use the word 'parody' before 'satire,' and 'self-deprecating humour' before 'parody.' Tolkien was wryly sending himself up as well as making a comment on 'comfortable' English middleclass life. I don't think Tolkien was being particularly negative, though he may have been slightly dsapproving at times in his use of humour, just maybe. There is a fondness in the way he puts things. Satire has a much harder edge I feel.
I don't think Odo satire has to be negative. But I do get the impression, especially reading it again as an adult, that his poking fun at some English habits and on broader questions of greed and loyalty that Tolkien has targets in mind and a point to make. Behind most satire a point is being made, its not just for fun. I think Tolkien satirises in that sense.
Satire and Parody mean two different things that do have some cross-over, but generally speaking satire applies to works that poke fun at human follies, whereas a parody is a form of satire that specifically pokes fun at (in an imitative mode) other forms of literature or art. But both Parody and Satire can be Whimsical in part or entirety as many Hobbit parodies (some on this very forum <img src='/images/smileys/wink.gif' border='0' alt='Wink Smilie' /> ) and Monty Python style satires demonstrate.

[quote:22b8savx][b:22b8savx]Merriam Webster:[/b:22b8savx]
Main Entry: sat·ire
Pronunciation: ?sa-?t?(-?)r
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French or Latin; Middle French, from Latin satura, satira, perhaps from (lanx) satura dish of mixed ingredients, from feminine of satur well-fed; akin to Latin satis enough — more at sad
Date: 1501
1 : a literary work holding up human vices and follies to ridicule or scorn
2 : trenchant wit, irony, or sarcasm used to expose and discredit vice or folly [/quote:22b8savx]

[quote:22b8savx][b:22b8savx]Merriam Webster:[/b:22b8savx]
Main Entry: 1par·o·dy
Pronunciation: ?per-?-d?, ?pa-r?-
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural par·o·dies
Etymology: Latin parodia, from Greek par?idia, from para- + aidein to sing — more at ode
Date: 1598
1 : a literary or musical work in which the style of an author or work is closely imitated for comic effect or in ridicule
2 : a feeble or ridiculous imitation[/quote:22b8savx]

So parts of The Hobbit certainly can be described as satirical in the manner Petty suggests, but it is by no means a Parody of anything. I think Tolkien would be insulted if anyone suggested it was <img src='/images/smileys/wink.gif' border='0' alt='Wink Smilie' /> .

Monty Python's King Arthur and the Holy Grail is a perfect example of something that combines Parody, Satire, and Whimsy all simultaneously.

[b:22b8savx]GB[/b:22b8savx]
Yes, I think Odo has got his meanings wrong about 'parody. But I think he has a point about 'satire' though.


[quote="Gandalfs Beard":2o25o6yi]Merriam Webster:
Main Entry: sat·ire
Pronunciation: ?sa-?t?(-?)r
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French or Latin; Middle French, from Latin satura, satira, perhaps from (lanx) satura dish of mixed ingredients, from feminine of satur well-fed; akin to Latin satis enough — more at sad
Date: 1501
1 : a literary work holding up human vices and follies to ridicule or scorn
2 : trenchant wit, irony, or sarcasm used to expose and discredit vice or folly [/quote:2o25o6yi]'.


I think he has a warmth about [i:2o25o6yi]middleclassedness[/i:2o25o6yi]. While some of his comments - for example, about goblins and machinery and explosions, may fit satire - but overall satire does not seem to play a large role in the book. Most of his humour seemes toungue in cheek. He derives amusement from the oddities of his own kind - that includes himself.:- Jane :ugeek:
I agree that the satire in The Hobbit is indeed minimal. Satire doesn't always have to be harsh though. Tolkien always stated that Hobbits generally represented middle-class British country folk in all their Parochialism, but at the same time he had an affection for that lifestyle. Hence his depictions of Hobbits are mildly and affectionately satirical.

[b:1bvnacnz]GB[/b:1bvnacnz]
I agree. Satire doesn't have to be negative. I think of it as a mirror reflecting the real world in a fake one. Lookig through the looking glass, right? 8-)
Good point Tinuviel. Lewis Carroll's works contained Satire and Whimsy. 8-)

[b:2mjm5z1v]GB[/b:2mjm5z1v]
I think GB and Tin you have nailed the sort of satire I was meaning in TH- there is no cruelty or malicousness in it, Tolkien is one of the types of people the hobbits are a satire of, so it is without venom and even as you say with fondness. Nevertheless he is making a point about the narrowness of vision this sort of person tends to display. And a sort of earthy folly that come with it.
And (this may just be a conincidental realization) I feel that the reason he called the country in Middle earth the "Shire" because all of those little middle class towns ended with 'shire.' It would make sense if that was his reason for the name. More playful satire :mrgreen:
I was about to create a new thread called Humour in the Hobbit and when I started typing what came up but "Humour in the Hobbit." I found Odo already had! I wonder why he hadn't mentioned it? Or maybe he had and I had just forgotten about it! :lol: Anyhow.... In LotR Movies there is a lot of "added" humour from PJ and his Harem ("Coven" is such a derogatory word!) LotR has it's humour but not enough, nor of the kind that PJ thought would have worked on screen - filling a lot of the gaps with dwarf jokes and other stuff of that ilk. This leads me to wonder about the humour to be used in the Hobbit Movies. I think everyone would agree The Hobbit (book) is a more humorous story throughout than LotR (while remaining serious and tragic too). It makes me wonder how PJ will treat the script. I fear two things mainly: (1) There will be endless Gimli-movie-type humour. (2) Tolkienish humour will be replaced by something better (ie PJ humour). I still hope PJ takes a Wiz of Oz approach, but please don't take that comment too far, l just mean something closer to the "feel" of The Book. Tangentially (slightly) I think PJ will seriousfy the movie no end, making it much more of a tragedy, which would be tragic. This would seem a natural outcome of making The Hobbit an actual prequel, rather than what it originally was, a stand alone novel for children. Yes, we have kind of canvassed this subject before, but I don't think we have talked exactly about the type of humor PJ will utilize in the movies. (We already know it will be overall a far more serious film than the book - what with the White Council and all). But we also know there will be humor: what? slapstick, dwarf-throwing... will Tolkien's voice be heard at all?
There is plenty of "Jacksonesque" Bumbling Dwarf Humour in the Hobbit already for Jackson to mine. That's how Tolkien wrote it. :P [b:1s285yzc]GB[/b:1s285yzc]
[quote="Gandalfs Beard":oo4j39py]There is plenty of "Jacksonesque" Bumbling Dwarf Humour in the Hobbit already for Jackson to mine. That's how Tolkien wrote it. :P [b:oo4j39py]GB[/b:oo4j39py][/quote:oo4j39py] Yup, especially fat Bombur jokes <img src='/images/smileys/smile.gif' border='0' alt='Smile Smilie' />
I don't agree at all. There is situational humor, not slapstick or dwarvish put-downs. Actually, Bombur might just fit - but what else?
[quote="Balin Banks":62ff8qkh]I don't agree at all. There is situational humor, not slapstick or dwarvish put-downs. Actually, Bombur might just fit - but what else?[/quote:62ff8qkh] I am currently rereading the Hobbit, I will answer that question when I'm done <img src='/images/smileys/wink.gif' border='0' alt='Wink Smilie' />
[quote="Balin Banks":15ff10rm]I don't agree at all. There is situational humor, not slapstick or dwarvish put-downs. Actually, Bombur might just fit - but what else?[/quote:15ff10rm] It's been a while since I read The Hobbit, but to the best of my memory I have to agree with this. I don't recall many burp jokes, fart jokes, or battle-fail jokes in The Hobbit. I think Jackson's sense of humor is much more childish than Tolkien's.
Got to agree with Eldo here. PJ imposed humour on LotR, Tolkien lets the humour arise naturally out of the situation. Take Bilbo opening his front door like a 'pop gun' and everyone falling in. The build up is the increasing anxiety of Bilbo as more unexpected dwarves arrive and demand food from him. It culminates in him pulling open the door too fast. It comes out of the character of Bilbo and the situation he is in. PJ doesn't really do that sort of humour. He prefers a burping dwarf or a hobbit nearly falling face first into pony sh*t. I really don't want to see that in TH thanks very much (I didn't want to see it in LotR if it comes to that!)
Thanks Petty - I was umming and ahhing about Bombur, but you've clinched it for me. It is situational - excellently so - you can imagine the press of eager bodies possibly impatient that Bilbo is taking so long to open his door. "Maybe no one's here, Thorin....?" "Don't be ridiculous, Bofur. We saw them ahead of us. Do you think they became invisible? Of course they went inside!" "I can hear voices." "Can you, Bifur? Let me put my ear to the door. Kindly move aside a little...." "Stand back... Stop pushing!" "They're definitely dwarvish voices..." "Where is your hobbit, Gandalf?" "Well, not up my sleeve, Thorin." "Hey everyone - I think that's Dwalin just now..." "Well, of course it is, you fool. Bofur, will you please get back!" "Sorry Thorin - but I'm a little deaf, let me get in closer to the door..." "Ooh I can smell seedcake." "Bombur - stop pushing..." "But I want to listen too, Bofur, [i:1ejjxf1s]my[/i:1ejjxf1s] hearing [i:1ejjxf1s]is[/i:1ejjxf1s] better you know..." You know, that kind of thing. Slightly exagerated behavior, but quite believeable in the context, and not rudely plonked there for a cheap laugh. (NO! I don't want [i:1ejjxf1s]my[/i:1ejjxf1s] scene in the Movie!)
[quote="pettytyrant101":1gl72moh]Got to agree with Eldo here. PJ imposed humour on LotR, Tolkien lets the humour arise naturally out of the situation. Take Bilbo opening his front door like a 'pop gun' and everyone falling in. The build up is the increasing anxiety of Bilbo as more unexpected dwarves arrive and demand food from him. It culminates in him pulling open the door too fast. It comes out of the character of Bilbo and the situation he is in. PJ doesn't really do that sort of humour. He prefers a burping dwarf or a hobbit nearly falling face first into pony sh*t. I really don't want to see that in TH thanks very much (I didn't want to see it in LotR if it comes to that!)[/quote:1gl72moh] WOW! What a stretch :roll: . If that isn't a perfect example of Bumbling Dwarf Slapstick, I don't know what is! "Natural" "Situational", just a tricksssy way to deny the obvious, that slapstick is nearly ALWAYS "situational" and "natural." :P (and that includes farting and falling down drunk, all "natural situations"Wink Smilie Come on guys, resorting to sophistry to score a rhetorical point is a really dubious tactic. And if you can't see that then you're really in denial. [b:1gl72moh]GB[/b:1gl72moh]
Not sophistry GB. Everyone falling in the door is slapstick, no denying that, but what makes it funny is Bilbo, the build up relies entirely on his increasing fraught state, the punchline is more than a mere visual gag its character led. By comparison Pippin landing next to a pile of horse sh*t [i:35lybvn2]is[/i:35lybvn2] just slapstick, there is a difference.
Slapstick is Slapstick! I don't care how you try to dress it up. <img src='/images/smileys/wink.gif' border='0' alt='Wink Smilie' /> Anyway, I suggest you make it over the Needlehole Thread posthaste. :mrgreen: (far more fun than this silly debate) [b:3vauhdsu]GB[/b:3vauhdsu]
Slapstick is Slapstick! I don't care how you try to dress it up. <img src='/images/smileys/wink.gif' border='0' alt='Wink Smilie' /> Anyway, I suggest you make it over the Needlehole Thread posthaste. :mrgreen: (far more fun than this silly debate) [b:23kk63hh]GB[/b:23kk63hh]
I don't agree it's slapstick. Seeing someone falling down the stairs is funny but frightening. "Oh I hope they're alright." A sense of the accidental. The person begins to walk down the stairs and falls unexpectedly. Slapstick is funny but you know the whole point is the fall. Tolkien doesn't work like that. Bilbo trying to get through the gap in the back door of the goblin tunnels. The situation is terrifying but funny - but the "funninesss" is not the point of the scene, it is purely something realistic that happens during a scene which might seem quite funny in a way - after all, he can hardly look respectable with those buttons missing! What about respectability? Oh how things have changed! You may suspect sophistry, GB, I detect a certain sophistication. There should not be any plunking of visual gags just for comic effect. The Bombur scene is funny as only one element of a whole - but not if you're Thorin. Hey! You may as well say all "humor" is "slapstick" GB, makes as much sense! Americans - by reputation at least - are not that subtle - so perhaps [i:3k8yua2x]slapstick [/i:3k8yua2x]is a just [i:3k8yua2x]humor[/i:3k8yua2x] to you! I'm almost back to where this thread began. Is "whimsy" just "humor" as well. Let's throw it in the pot with slapstick - it's the American way.
I tend to agree with you, Odo, but GB's point is reasonable enough. Don't tell me you're another America-basher. Or are you just up to your old tricks and being a smart-arse?
There is a dash of humour involved, yes.
Well in the very beginning (i just read it to my younger siblings) there is a joke about how Thorin was angry that Bombur, who "was immensley fat" (something like that) fell on him. There is definitely humour, try reading some lines out loud
You are right Tin there is plenty humour in TH. The troll scene is another good example. Problem is PJ's LotR isn't exactly notable for humour that's not broad. Fun word-play or humour built of characterization are not his strong points. His style of humour as displayed in LotR is quite different from the sort of gentle humour Tolkien uses. I'm not sure the two can be made to gel and I don't trust him enough to stick with Tolkien. And given PJ seems to like trying to 'top' whatever Tolkien wrote no doubt a fat Bombur won't be enough for him and we will have to put up with a fat farting burping Bombur! (he'll probably end up like Cartman).
Eegad! :shock:
There needs to be a new thread called: Humour about the production of The Hobbit Movie. There has been more than enough. In the actual book, I loved the arrival of all the dwarfs and Gandalf. Not obvious comedy, no, but it always made me giggle. The flustered Bilbo, rushing around the house, always makes me think of myself when I am stressed. Ah, I love Bilbo!
[quote="pettytyrant101":3ay1azlh] (he'll probably end up like Cartman).[/quote:3ay1azlh] *Bombur wakes up in the middle of Mirkwood* "Screw you guys, I'm going home" >>
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Surprises me the South Park crew haven't tackled it, actually.
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