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So now that there are official images of the Dwarves on the net what do we think? I still haven’t made my mind up regarding Killi & Filli. The rest I love, they all have such fantastic character. Im so glad they dont just look like variants of Gimli. Having said that there is a definite family resemblance between Gloin and Gimli... Any thoughts?

To be frank...Balin REALLY disappoints me. He looks like a midget version of Santa, what with his thick, poofy white beard.   Very unlike him....

Fili and Kili annoy me as well. I am not too keen on Fili's "Californian surfer Dwarf" look (i.e. the bleach blonde hair), although the rest of him is quite good; Kili is the one I have the most problems with. I understand why they did not give him a beard (to illustrate his youth), but the long Elf hair?? Really????   *Sigh*...And he already has that look - that "I'm the movie's sex symbol and every girl will find me WILDLY attractive" appearance. Thankfully (and I know that that is the wrong word, but in a way, I am strangely thankful), both twins die in the end, so even though the fanfiction sites will be overflowing with Kili/OC stories, at least the Dwarves get to die heroes's deaths.

Other than that...all the others are very well done. I do like Bifur's axe-shaped part in his hair. I like to think that he achieved that in a battle.  

I'm not so hardcore that I would care about such things as 'appearances of a couple of dwarves'; but in my opinion, all of them looked cool enough.

I've high expectations for the two movies, but at the same time I constantly remind myself of the fact that books are very hard to top. Even GOT (Game of Thrones), which still feels so magical and unbelievable (it must be one of those 'once in a life-time' television series), the actual books are very magnificent also, so it's hard to choose, but if you're after the real experience, go for the books, then for the movies. Classical way of doing things.

Anyway, that is just my opinion.

I think Killi does have a beard, it looks like it may be tied or braided into a single central plat....

I was expecting Killi and Filli to look if not like twins then very obviously brothers.

Anyhow dont forget that all of the Dwarves will start of looking rather lower class, for Dwarves and once they reach The Lonely Mountain change costumes for some really expensive and ornate Dwarvish courture!

Ive just had another close look and I believe that the Dwarves hands seem to have been enlarges or at least made look more stumpy and strong.  Also love the detailing on some of the coats and clothing.

I'm not so hardcore that I would care about such things as 'appearances of a couple of dwarves'; but in my opinion, all of them looked cool enough. 

 

I don't feel it's necessarily hardcore to care about getting the visuals right even if it involves only a couple of Dwarves. A couple of Dwarves that are silly looking (which is admittedly a subjective judgement), or that look contrary to the way Tolkien's Dwarves are described, might not only 'affect the moment' for readers, but here they would also appear fairly consistently throughout the film.

 

Jackson fans often enough praise his visual interpretations, or base a given argument on the fact that film is a visual medium, and even one notably tall Dwarf, for instance, could remind the reader that this goes against Tolkien's world (also reminding that one is watching a film).

I must concur with Galin. The trouble is the public is so jaded  by movie stars and their unreal looks of perfection and such and my opinion is that of course Peter and co. realize that if they don`t have a jolly good ounce of hollywood glamour and sex appeal then the majority simply won`t wish to see it. Thus the dwarf that is pretty and a lot of other stuff. Had this movie been made in the fifties and had color I should not be surprised if the integrity of the book would not be uppermost in the mind and simply be portrayed pretty much as it was written.Also the almost hero worship of the public for our esteemed professor might well have swayed the day against those who would have sought to simply sensationalize the story by adding things to draw the money by glitzing things up.It would have mattered that just two dwarves looked silly.

Yes true Lee Lee.  I'm disappointed with Kili & Fili as I was hoping for a more gutsy perhaps twin like dwarven youngsters.  The dark haired one Aiden someone is a great actor and is well known in the UK as a sex symbol.  PJ seems to be cashing in on this as he indeed makes a sexy Dwarf.  Will be interesting to see the Dwarves in action.  Has anyone noticed in the images which have been released that the Dwarves arms, Legs and hands seem to have been altered?  Hands & Feet have been enlarged it seems, to perhaps make the arms and legs look shorter/ stouter.  Gloin of course retains the family resemblance....

Just saw some footage of filming in what looks like Mirkwood on TOR.net

Looking good I must say, you see Nori and Fili running, they seem to be wearing very simple cloaks and garments and look very tatty.  I think the garments the Dwarves are wearing in the promo images might be those wither supplied in Lake Town or items found in the Lonely Mountain halls....

You also see gandalf looking, wel, very Gandalfian!

Why do we have to have so many sexified dwarves? Or any, in fact?

I don't think that any of them look sexy except for kili and as a young Dwarf I think it's ok that one of them is good looking. JRRT never said that DwArves were ugly just that the Elves considered them stunted and unlovely.

True Tolkien never specified, but I think the traditional dwarf is a bit craggy and careworn. Peter Jackson has to appeal to the masses, I guess, and feels he needs something there for young girls to drool over. Peter does have a cynical approach to movie making. In fairness, box office returns are all important. The respecting of Tolkien and the making of profit apparently can't co-exist. Not in Peter's eyes anyhow.

Young Dwarves still have beards in any case... even baby Dwarves have beards! at least according to JRRT at one point in time anyway.

Good point, Galin.

Too treu Galin.  Would love to see a baby Dwarf some day, for that matter Mother and Dwarfling.

Did Lady dwarves have beards? My guess is that they didn't.

Female Dwarves were bearded. Fuzzy but true!

I dont let myself see anything being done in production. I saw the initial picture and saw there were no colored hooded capes and that was so depressing even though I thought I might understand the 'logic' of the decision, completely commercial of course(i weary of the eleven to nineteen crowd  having such influence and who live at home rent free and have the funds to shake up the market. They are wonderful people but as yet unseasoned really, weren't we all? in discriminating tastes,.Ii am speaking of literary).Above all else in my opinion Mr. Jackson is a street wise marketing genius and can squeeze money out of a stone, and his partner is some how in lala land and takes bits from here and there and quotqtions and gives them to just anybody and some how does it in an amazing way so that those never having read JRR's books think it is died in the wool perfect and faithful to the professor's works.

They are so talented they could probably work into the story line a love story between a dwarf and someone in Dale and it would be remembered the most fondly of everything else in the movie. sigh

No, I will resist and look at nothing and read nothing until the day I go into the theatre to watch The Hobbit and then my reaction will be true to my devotion to the body of works that are Tolkiens not colored by Peter Jackson fans.And, if we adults would take the time to read and read to our little ones and older, good literary books, a Hobbit discussion or any of JRR works in discussion like my little one roped our family into, we would see the older children want to read such books, learn the languages even and not be taken in down the road by very watered down or plain horrible versions of our great authors.

Good Idea Lee Lee.

I know we are talking about Thorin's company, but I think that Thorin himself in the one that bathers me the most. He is too young looking. I personally pictured him as a large regal grey bearded dwarf.

The others all suit me fine.

I know we are talking about Thorin's company, but I think that Thorin himself in the one that bathers me the most. He is too young looking. I personally pictured him as a large regal grey bearded dwarf.

Me too. I pictured Thorin as much older, but still strong.

I said before in the other thread about some Dwarves' haircuts I find quite bad. I meant mainly Nori's and Bombur's weird hair. It reminds me of comic characters, and that doesn't fit the style of Tolkien's heroes in my opinion.

I agree with those of you who are kind of annoyed how Kili and Fili were portrayed. It looks 'hollywoodish'. I understand some viewers expectations, but the respect to original story should have a priority over them. Dragons, fights, legends, beautiful landscapes - isn't the story entertaining enough? If not, you're not going to enjoy the movie as simple as that. You have plenty of other movies though, with the stories that maybe will be more compelling for you. Yes, I know - in this business it would be a blameworthy approach - every movie should have everything, so everybody will watch it. Oh well...

Agreed about Thorins age and it's strange because he should look like one of the oldest of the company. It will be interesting to see how all of the Dwarves look with Men in the same frame.... I'm avoiding as much online stuff as possible to maximise the enjoyment when it comes out. Something positive I read last week. Apparently the Trolls talk! And that have cockney type accents.

I saw discussions about their clothes recently. Some of those who read the book insist that the Dwarves should have their hoods exactly like in the book. What do you think about it? Yes, Tolkien made that clear - how every Dwarf should be clothed, we have descriptions of the hoods, the belts, the cloaks, so it would make sense to use them. But also, it seems like PJ wants the whole story to fit the dark style of LOTR movies, and he abandoned the idea of giving them colourful wardrobe.

Yes colour use is an interesting one. Would the technology to create bright colours in fabric have been around in Middle Earth? Or would the colours have been earth and mineral based, meaning that colours would be quiet natural and subdued. The various shades of the Dwarven hoods are an important part of The Hobbit and it will be interesting to see if these are used in the film. Perhaps we haven't seen (in the teaser) a clear shot of them. Let's all hope that they are. Really wanted to see some tassels as well.

if baby dwarves come forth with beards, boy and girl, that to me is dreadful. Poor girls, and how terrible to have facial hair in the womb for the mother.. My first born son had long hair right to his shoulders at birth and I had the worst worst WORST hearburn the entire second and last trimester. Shiver.

I should add that although I used the term 'baby' above, technically the text notes...

 

'the Naugrim have beards from the beginning of their lives, male and female alike'

The War of the Jewels 

 

If one wanted to quibble with the idea of Dwarven 'babies' having beards, compared to that. At the moment I can't recall if JRRT ever stated this in another way.

Interesting Lee Lee. My brother was born with jet black fine hair which all fell out and was replaced with chrystaline white blonde. Very strange but true. Me, born with bright red, think of Anne Shirley from Green Gables. Thank goodness it's become much lighter thanks to the Aus sun, and probably a sprinkling of grey.

My second son was born with dark brown hair which all fell out and he then had snow white hair, long ringlets of it and such pale eyebrows you could not actually see them until he was about nine As for red hair, my whole family has always been totally enamoured of it. Any shade any color. We trace it back to Esau, red hair that is , for he was father of the Edomites and Edom means red in the ancient language. And in antiquity many many Russians were red haired and light grey or blue eyed. My first crush ever was with a terribly polite red haired boy who was with me in the honors class through all of middle and high school

Where is this information about baby dwarves being born with beards, that does not even make sense. Dwarves could not be that foreign in blood and hormones from men and hobbits could they?

Leelee, see my previous post in this thread for the description (as Tolkien wrote it at one point anyway).

As I say, technically the term 'baby' is not in the citation (this one anyway), but 'from the beginning of their lives' rather.

Fascinating Lee Lee. Yes we truly are a minority over the Eons and there are some very strang folk loreic tales some of which are awful. Dark Aubern hair was greatly appreciated in ancient Greece and Rome too. Eww some with icky sexual overtones. Yes Galin, I have read in various places, which I can't remember, that Dwarves arent born (as we are), but appear with beard already present. There is some evidence however that beard fullness and length comes with age. So perhaps their initial beard is light and whispey and they are smaller and lighter. How cute. Interesting however that we know that Dwarves have families. Mim has Sons as of course doses Gloin. Don't know how this works really.

Interesting however that we know that Dwarves have families. Mim has Sons as of course doses Gloin. Don't know how this works really.  

 

For clarity... you don't know how what works? I just mean, what are you referring to here (in the last sentence)?

Hi Galin. What I meant was... If the Dwarves have a Mother and a Father (which we know they do) however are not born as we and the Elves are, then how is a birth/creation achieved or enacted. I would be interested to know. Do they just pop out of the ground to quote Gimli (at least in the film).

Well, not to be indelicate, but I would say that when a Dwarf-man and a Dwarf-woman love each other very much, they get married and...

The notion that the Dwarves had no women and thus 'grow out of stone' is noted as a foolish one among Men (Appendix A). Moreover, in The War of the Jewels Tolkien noted that the rebirth or reincarnation of certain Dwarves was after the manner of the Quendi -- which at that phase (external period of time) was physical rebirth in the 'usual way'.

[Tolkien would later revise his long held idea of how the Elves were reincarnated, and would consider a variant notion for the Dwarves as well -- that is, any Dwarves that seemed to be reincarnated, like Durin]

 

My earlier niggle was only that the word 'baby' does not actually appear in the citation above, not that there were no Dwarf-babies -- if one wanted to quibble with what might be meant by the Naugrim having beards from 'the beginning of their lives' that is -- but in any case I agree with Christopher Tolkien's brief characterization in War of the Jewels (concerning this particular text anyway): '-- the Dwarves are bearded from birth, both male and female alike (section 5)'

 

'It is said also that their womankind are few, and that save their kings and chieftains few Dwarves ever wed; wherefore their race multiplied slowly, and now is dwindling.'

 

Of The Naugrim And The Edain, The Later Quenta Silmarillion, The War Of The Jewels

Indeed, however we are still no closer to knowing if Dwarven women actually gestate and deliver a baby or if there was another method, designed by Aule, which perhaps we mortals have no understanding of. I'm happy with the idea that " the seven Fathers" we're possibly reincarnated or reborn, perhaps due to the fact that Iluvatar involved himself after their creation. Perhaps Aule intended that all Dwarves could be reborn, however didn't have the power to achieve this. I guess we'll never know.

Well, if Durin was reincarnated after the manner of the Quendi -- in a phase where that meant reborn as a baby in the usual way...

I wish we could ask Christopher for surely his father would have discussed just about every page he wrote with his son, probably so many letters were lost. I always had the feeling that when the children had grown and made their ways into the world, Tolkien being worn out from years and years of hard work into the night along with writing that unbelievable book, his frequent sicknesses, after all he did smoke liberally, and poor dear Edith's constant pain with crippling arthritis, I have this feeling the house was rather messy most times and so this that and the other thing went missing.

Still I would like to know the facts because I just think it is REPULSIVE to think of dwarf ladies with beards and dwarf babes the same, what on earth for. And we never ever hear of a female or child or names of any who were known by others do we? The whole thing is tiring really.

I would find it very charming, however Lee Lee and Galin, if the Dwarves indeed married, Loved there partner, then after some time decided to have a child and perhaps one day awoke to find a baby Dwarfling in the nursery, perhaps delivered by some form of loving power from elemental sources. In ancient human lore Dwarves come of Earth or Stone and perhaps Tolkien used these old Fairy Tales in his creation of the Dwarves. I know it's twee, but I like the fact that there could be something magical about the Dwarves. I guess we indeed will never know, but can ponder with the limited knowledge we have from Tolkien.

Why do you say that we are no closer to knowing Brego (or that you think we will never know)? What about Tolkien's statement concerning the seven fathers returning 'in the manner of the Quendi', written in the early 1950s, for example.

I have no problem stating that Tolkien's Dwarves reproduced like other incarnates (sexually), and that their women gave birth to babies in the usual way (generally speaking at least).

 

 

Leelee wrote: And we never ever hear of a female or child or names of any who were known by others do we? 

The female Dwarf Dís   is noted in Appendix A.

Galin I say we are no closer to knowing because we are no closer to knowing, despite a few letters which outline very brief ideas. I'm not talking reincarnation, I'm talking bog standard breeding ( indelicate ). Anyhow I love the slightly magical quality that Tolkiens Dwarves are surrounded with. I think we don't know because the Dwarves did not share such info with the Elves who wrote of the histories of Arda.

Brego wrote: Galin I say we are no closer to knowing because we are no closer to knowing, despite a few letters which outline very brief ideas. I'm not talking reincarnation, I'm talking bog standard breeding (indelicate). 

 

 

Brego you may think 'we' are no closer to knowing, but are you going to take the position that only the seven Dwarf-fathers could be born as babies (being reborn as babies) -- yet the rest of the Dwarves were not born in this way?

Are you taking the stance that the only Dwarf-women to ever get pregnant and carry children in the 'usual way' were those who might bring the seven Dwarf-fathers back into Middle-earth through reincarnation?

As I said Galin, We do not, and never will know.

As I said Galin, We do not, and never will know. 

 

So you keep saying Brego, but what about the text from The Later Quenta Silmarillion specifically, just for example -- no comment whatsoever about that? 

Given the evidence from The Later Quenta Silmarillion of the early 1950s -- where the reincarnation of the Dwarves is noted as rebirth in the manner of the Quendi -- thus as babies, which was the idea for the Quendi at this time, with a pregnant mother and so on (again the 'usual' way in general)...

 

... so, if you agree with that much then you agree that those Dwarves could, and did, have babies, right?

Not at all Galin. You should perhaps read members posts properly before critiquing them. The Silmarillion does not confirm what you quote. It says that the Elves surmise that the Fathers of the Dwarves are reincarnated over and over and that they may me born into the same family from which they came from. As the Elves knew as little of the Dwarves as we do, I don't think their writings confirm anything.

Not at all Galin. You should perhaps read members posts properly before critiquing them.

 

 

I asked you questions about a specific text Brego, which is different from a critique in any case.

The Silmarillion does not confirm what you quote. It says that the Elves surmise that the Fathers of the Dwarves are reincarnated over and over and that they may me born into the same family from which they came from. As the Elves knew as little of the Dwarves as we do, I don't think their writings confirm anything.  

 

My citation is from the Silmarillion too, and I'm aware of the later change to it, in which 'in the manner of the Quendi' was dropped for example (and that's why I have been noting the date of the early 1950s here). Why it was dropped is another matter, but for now...

 

... do you at least agree that in the early 1950s JRRT imagined that these Dwarf-women could, and did, have babies -- since at this point the idea included 'in the manner of the Quendi' (and I note that in the previous paragraph to the following citation, the words 'they say' refers to the Dwarves not to the Elves):

 

'Now these fathers, they say, were seven in number, and they alone return (in the manner of the Quendi) to live again in their own kin and to bear once more their ancient names. Of these Durin was the most renowned in after ages...'

 JRRT, The Later Quenta Silmarillion, early 1950s

 

Do you at least agree with this much (as worded in my last paragraph)?

Whether or not you think the idea was abandoned later is irrelevant for now. We can all agree that Strider was once named Trotter for instance, even if this was later revised.

 

 

Brego wrote: It says that the Elves surmise that the Fathers of the Dwarves are reincarnated over and over and that they may me born into the same family from which they came from . As the Elves knew as little of the Dwarves as we do, I don't think their writings confirm anything. 

 

Incidentally that's not accurate Brego. The 1977 Silmarillion notes that aforetime the Elves in Middle-earth held that dying the Dwarves returned to the earth and stone from which they were made: '... yet that is not their own belief. For they say... (...) They say also that the seven fathers of the Dwarves return to live again in their own kin...'

 

This is what the Dwarves say Brego, rather than Elvish conjecture (the part I edited for brevity does not alter this); just as in the earlier passage I cited above.

OK Galin, again I give up. 

As I stated earlier, we will never know and that's what 'Im happy with.

Brego wrote: OK Galin, again I give up. As I stated earlier, we will never know and that's what 'Im happy with. 

 

So you won't comment on this point, or won't even agree (or not) that, in the early 1950s at least, the idea was that reincarnated Dwarves returned to Middle-earth by being reborn as babies.  

 

Ignore that as you like Brego, this description is only part of my fuller argument in any case, which I'll postpone until I have more time. But for now...

... obviously you are free to be happy with anything you imagine to be so, but I can't agree with your continued choice of 'we will never know' as if this is a fact for everyone. I think, for example, a given person might find something compelling enough to hold, with enough confidence, the opinion that Dwarf-women do have babies, given the textual evidence as it stands today anyway.

Correct Galin I wont. 

It seems that you base most of your beliefs on hundreds of contradictory and confusing letters, which I believe Tolkien never expected to be used as tools on a fan institution (lets face it, the tech had not been invented). I never take you to task on this or pick you up on info which I believe to be misunderstood by you.

Also as I stated in a previous post, I think you enjoy arguing a little too much Galin and you have now exhausted my patience.

This site isn't an exam on Tolkien, and I for one don't expect to be graded every time I post about something you seem overly obsessed with. I think everyone on this site knows that my posts represent my beliefs and are not necessarily exactly as the Proff- had in mind.  And guess what? We will never know any more or less what his genius mind actually thought out side of his published works.

Anyway back to the topic of Dwarves in the teaser trailer.... I went back and took another look and Ive got to say  that amazing song of the Dwarves is simply amazing.....  Thank you Mr Howard Shore.... Thank you!

Brego wrote: It seems that you base most of your beliefs on hundreds of contradictory and confusing letters, which I believe Tolkien never expected to be used as tools on a fan institution...

 

For clarity, the specific citation I asked you about is from Quenta Silmarillion Brego, not Letters

And generally speaking now, plenty of people use Tolkien's letters to inform them about Middle-earth, including Christopher Tolkien, who also used at least one letter, for example, for the 1977 constructed Silmarillion incidentally.

 

I never take you to task on this or pick you up on info which I believe to be misunderstood by you.

 

Feel free to do so (which goes for anyone). I like discussing Tolkien and will try to back up anything I post -- if I feel inclined and have the time of course; I mean I can't say I'll necessarily respond to everything, for one reason or the next, and time is a consideration, among other external factors.

 

Also as I stated in a previous post, I think you enjoy arguing a little too much Galin and you have now exhausted my patience.

 

That's your characterization Brego, and you are free to imagine it is true; but actually I enjoy talking about Tolkien and his world rather, and maybe we can get back to that.

And couldn't you have simply responded the first time I asked -- can't you even agree that this citation speaks to (at least some) Dwarven women having babies, and at least according to Tolkien's imagination at this time (early 1950s). Or if you disagree, briefly explain why.

 

This site isn't an exam on Tolkien, and I for one don't expect to be graded every time I post about something you seem overly obsessed with.

 

I have never graded your posts Brego. Would you like me to grade this latest from you

Nor am I obsessed or 'overly obsessed' with anything. It's a simple question. And you were making a claim about Tolkien's Dwarves as if it's a certain fact for everyone, so I disagreed; while also having a specific citation I thought you might comment on before I post my fuller argument.

I think everyone on this site knows that my posts represent my beliefs and are not necessarily exactly as the Proff- had in mind. And guess what? We will never know any more or less what his genius mind actually thought out side of his published works. 

 

 

You have quoted, or at least referred to, The Silmarillion --  the 1977 Silmarillion, constructed and published by Christopher Tolkien -- never published by Tolkien himself. Again my quote here is also from Tolkien's Silmarillion, a version written but never published by the author.

 

Anyway, why not take the time it took you to write your last post... to stay wholly on topic or comment on the LQS citation instead? 

Galin, I have read your posts over and over. You are a very determined guy and I love how you back up everything you say. Unlike what Brego said, somewhat hastily I think, I disagree that you like arguing, rather, you are a debater. Correct? The way you explain everything, back up everything, and look at all the points of everything is really a talent. Great job.

Though I am not quite so knowledgeable on this subject as either of you are, I would like to say something on it. What came to my mind while reading this, is that dwarves were created by Aule, right? So as Aule made them, without knowing anything about elves and men, but made them so that they turned out enough like both elves and men, I think that is evidence that they reproduce in a similar fashion. Another thing that is evidence of that is that Eru gave the dwarves life. Right? In that case, Eru most likely gave them the ability to go on living and creating new life (babies). If that is true, then he probably made the dwarves able to reproduce life in the same way that elves and men reproduce life. Yes?

 

That is my simple idea, thanks.

Thank you Wenlesael!

Hmm, I wouldn't say I like debating particularly, but I don't mind one now and again. 

Good debate can be a learning experience, and I try to do my 'homework', and as it's the fun kind and keeps me delving into Tolkien, I don't see it as laborious. If a debate arises, well, no big deal in my opinion; as I say it's part of discussion and happens every day, all over the web and elsewhere.  

Anyway Wenlesael, what you raised about Eru is interesting, as when Tolkien was trying to work out the origin of the Dwarves he had noted, as one conception:

 

'But it is said that to each Dwarf Iluvatar added a mate of female kind, yet because he would not amend the work of Aule, and Aule had yet made only things of male form, therefore the women of the Dwarves resemble their men more than all other [?speaking] races.'

JRRT, The War of the Jewels, Of the Naugrim and the Edain

However Tolkien would muse on the alternate idea that Aule made the first women, although in one note, interestingly:

 

'... and beside each [of] them he laid a mate as the Voice bade him...' JRRT

 

Christopher Tolkien noted that his father evidently abandoned the question of the origin of the female Dwarves 'finding it intractable and the solutions unsatisfactory' but in any case we know there certainly were females. 

And just to post something from a letter 

 

...  in a draft letter (156 I think, I forgot the number by the time I typed this out) Tolkien noted that his Dwarves were a variety of rational, incarnate creature: '... not a kind of maggot-folk bred in stone' (in comparison to a Germanic notion, it appears).

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