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Agreed With all except for Galadrial. I believe with all my Heart that Galadrial would be an exceptionally tactile Person, like all Elves. I know a lot of people on this sight disagree however I can only (as anyone) speak for my own visualisation of what I behold whilst reading Tolkien. When I saw the trailer for the first time I marvelled at Bilbo, and most of the Dwarves, not all. However my breath was withheld and my heart stopped for a couple of seconds when I saw "that" scene. It is the exact way in which I had imagined Galadrial would behave with familiar friends. Whether Aragorn ( her Grand Daughters suitor ) or by her beloved family and of course those of her ancient friends gone long ago into the West. In my heart the Elves are truly conected to those whom they love. And it's apparent to me through what I have read that Mithrandir and Galadrial would have been true supportive friends. This is what I see in the Teaser. I can fully respect the opinions of others and often marvel at the thoughts of others.

I disagree most strongly with you dearest Brego, I felt nauseated and disturbed in my heart when I saw that scene. I agree that the elves were tactile, at least those who were smiths and artisans, that is a given. However Tolkien was a stickler for proper protocol in real life and I believe that the high elves and those even higher would have observed absolute and proper protocol in all situations even unto death. That gesture was only proper if between say deeply attached brother and sister , but probably husband and wife alone. And when you remember that during Bilbo Baggin's stay at Imladris when there were banquets the elves usually did not touch a bite that was set before them for hours and hours, preferring to listen intently to the lays and stories of heroic deeds. No I think that was highly improper and quite frankly unless proved otherwise when the movie is seen in entirety, obscene and for the very reason the high elves, Maia and so on were so aware of high thought and protocol that a breach was shocking, In my opinion. And as I have noted on another thread, the fact that the professor was deeply disturbed about women beginning to wear formal trowsers to church and other things that would seem so minor to his peers, so too I think he would disapprove heartily upon seeing that scene. And his opinion would be my only guide line.

Dearest Lee Lee, I respect your opinion and do understand it.  I will truly never forgive PJ if this does end up more than as I described above....  I know that it will never come to this however.

Tactile elves. A sticky one, that's for sure. I do recall reading somewhere that Galadriel tended to be 'motherly', yet she does not behave this way publicly. We don't see any of the other elves behave this way. Consider Legolas and his fairly lengthy association with the Fellowship. We don't see him ever touch Aragorn, yet he seems to be quite fond of him. Perhaps it is supposed to be a habit of female elves only?

I had always thought that elves expressed affection with words more than gestures - words being their favourite tools. I have in mind Elladan's words to the terrified Gimli on the Paths of the Dead, and Finrod Felagund's lengthy conversation with Andreth (very touching) in Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth. And yes, I agree that protocol would have been important to them, as it often is with those of considerable age Wink Smilie. We have also forgotten the elves' telepathathic abilities which would further make physical contact redundant. It will be interesting to see how PJ continues to represent Galadriel and Gandalf's relationship.

You know that do you dear Brego, hmm, New Zealand is just a hop and a skip from Australia. Hmmm. And you know that eh, your last name is not also Jackson or Walsh now is it?blush

Alas no Lee Lee, and yes close to NZ here....  I have been to Christchurch and Aukland but not to Wellingwood.  Next holiday I think Ill go.  Its about a 3 hour flight and isnt too expensive.  I would like to go to the Weta Cave which is kind of a museum of Weta Workshop and I imagine would be crammed full of goodies. 

I know all about the Weta workshop and the geniuses there. I saw a documentary on it and it was fab. So if I make it there around the same time as you  we can all troop about and take a zillion pictures. My little one just wants to see Frodo,poor thing and Baggend. Nothing much really and she is terrified of orcs and Gullum so.......

I do recall reading somewhere that Galadriel tended to be 'motherly', yet she does not behave this way publicly. We don't see any of the other elves behave this way. Consider Legolas and his fairly lengthy association with the Fellowship. We don't see him ever touch Aragorn, yet he seems to be quite fond of him. Perhaps it is supposed to be a habit of female elves only?

OK, I'll ask (surprise): where did you read this 'motherly' bit... besides somewhere I mean

 

Plus haven't you heard, Elves are androgynous! Or at least that's what I've been arguing against recently (well to simplify matters), with the creator of a website called 'Merin Essi ar Quenteli'

I also disagreed with another matter there that the Elves do not generally repeat names among themselves -- I say that they do -- and on this site both matters include citations or references to the books too. But what citations, exactly.

 

There's a lot of stuff on the net about Tolkien's Elves, in forums like these or on websites, and I'm not saying there isn't a 'motherly' quote from JRRT, or no description that gave you this impression, or even no quote from someone not named Tolkien...

... I'm just asking if you can source it please; although I'll certainly understand if somewhere has been forgotten by now.

 

What weird places you got to Galin. Stay here, much safer. It won't be long before you can join in an arguement about wether or not dwarves start out looking like humans, then get a beard and... dwarfy...faces when they grow older. Oh PJ, why can't you see what you are doing to Tolkien's world...

But now you made me curious. Why wouldn't they repeat names? "My name is Bob, now let's never speak of it again!" "Who was that then?" "Can't say, his name has been said once and can't be repeated." "I thought he was a she?" "Could be, it's hard to tell." 

If I remember correctly from Morgoth's ring (HOME) they had a name their mother gave then, a name their father gave them and in addition what ever nick names they gained or chose. 

But now you made me curious. Why wouldn't they repeat names? "My name is Bob, now let's never speak of it again!" "Who was that then?" "Can't say, his name has been said once and can't be repeated." "I thought he was a she?" "Could be, it's hard to tell." 

 

 

And now that you mention it Amarie, I think the name Bob was allowed to be repeated, just once; as long as the name was spoken backwards the second time.

lol.  boB.  There.  NOw no one must ever say it again...

I understood that Tolkien meant the elves did not name their children after other elves.  This makes a kind of logic, when you remember that elves generally don't die, so - can you imagine if there were a family name passed down from generation to generation, how confusing this would be!

Also, I gather that names are very individual in middle-earth and in Valinor, and there would be something... irreverent... about having the same name, recalling another person to the minds of those who are introduced to you instead of impressing your own name upon them.  Not really sure about this.

lol.  boB.  There.  NOw no one must ever say it again...

 

LOL

 

I understood that Tolkien meant the elves did not name their children after other elves. This makes a kind of logic, when you remember that elves generally don't die, so - can you imagine if there were a family name passed down from generation to generation, how confusing this would be!

Also, I gather that names are very individual in middle-earth and in Valinor, and there would be something... irreverent... about having the same name, recalling another person to the minds of those who are introduced to you instead of impressing your own name upon them.  Not really sure about this. 

 

Yes these are both popular enough ideas about Tolkien's Elves and naming customs, but I think delving into the primary sources here (Laws And Customs Among The Eldar, and The Shibboleth of Feanor ) paints a different and somewhat more complicated picture. For example, from The Peoples of Middle-Earth:

'Arakano was the tallest of the brothers and the most impetuous, but his name was never changed to Sindarin form, for he perished in the first battle of Fingolfin's host with the Orks, the Battle of the Lammoth (but the Sindarin form Argon was often later given as a name by Noldor and Sindar in memory of his valour)'  

JRRT, The Shibboleth of Feanor
 

When it comes to Gandalf and Galadriel in the trailer I think Elanorraine wonderfully explained also my thoughts here:

In fact, insofar as the order of being is concerned, Galadriel, having lived in Valinor, may have known Gandalf as Olorin in his unincarrnated Maia form - perhaps even as her mentor or teacher - or even as a senior peer... Galadriel goes back to middle earth in questionable company for dubious motives (she wants to be in charge of something of her own), and after many many long years, after countless battles against evil in all forms (not just orcs and dragons and trolls and balrogs and evil overlords, but also in other elves and men), after she may have despaired ever of seeing any Valar or Maia again, then do the the Valar send 5 Maia (Olorin included) to middle earth, clothed rather more permanently than usual in the bodies of old men - to help fight the last remnants of a battle begun before the song of the Valar was seen.

I couldn't put it into words better, thanks for that Elanorraine!

Thus being said, I don't see anything wrong with putting Galadriel character here at the moment - yes, she isn't in the book, but we know about some facts during the time when Bilbo and the Thorin's company were on the journey, right? She lived in Middle-Earth during that time, I'm sure she was aware of Gandalf's role in the future, I'm sure she understood what was the mission all about from Olorin's perspective. It is also her perspective, even if she had nothing to do with killing Smaug etc. That's why I think the scene will have something to do with wider aspect of the story. We know about Gandalf's concerns when it comes to Necromancer at that time, don't we? I guess Galadriel would be one of those who understood Gandalf and his task and I see it in this scene. I don't mind involving her character since it adds more depth to the movie, just like the songs written by Tolkien add more depth to his books. I don't mind Peter Jackson to put those hints (Galadriel, Frodo) to Lord Of The Rings story into "The Hobbit".

I definitely love the music in the trailer and I like the fact there are going to be Tolkien's poems included in the soundtrack (even if it will be only this one from the trailer). The song immediately takes me to the Middle-Earth realms.

If there's something I don't like in seeing how "The Hobbit" is filmed (only from what I saw of course) - I'm not a fan of the Dwarves' haircuts - it looks like an Asterix/Obelix movie, too grotesque, and comic-like for my taste.

Did Galadriel know Olorin in Valinor? Actualy it is told (Valaquenta) that Olorin dwelt in Lorien, but his ways often took him to the house of Nienna, and:

 

'... in the Quenta Silmarillion. But of Olorin that tale does not speak; for though he loved the Elves, he walked among them unseen, or in form as one of them, and they did not know whence came the fair visions or the prompting of wisdom that he put into their hearts. In later days he was the friend of all the Children of Iluvatar...' 

 

All God's children could be fiddling with Gandalf's hair?

I don't mind Galadriel being in the film adaptation as much as Jackson's unnecessary fan fiction here. One of the latest book-based assertions I have read (not here) is that Gandalf wrote a song for Galadriel, so they must have been close!

But these posts are telling to me -- if it was mutually agreed upon that this gesture is one of simple friendship and concern, why is this such a topic across the web? and why are some people taking arguably rather benign details (such as Gandalf's healing in Lorien) and painting them as representing something 'special' between these characters specifically?

 

As we see it is not mutually agreed upon as an appropriate gesture between these characters; but no one in Jackson's camp thought to be prudent here? There are plenty of ways to show concern on film in any case. 

I don't recall any evidence that Galadriel knew Olorin in Valinor, and actualy it is told (Valaquenta) that Olorin dwelt in Lorien, but his ways often took him to the house of Nienna, and

Me neither, but that doesn't mean Galadriel couldn't see Maia spirit in Gandalf, and I guess that would justify the look she gave him. Cate Blanchett played Galadriel like that in the LOTR movies, and when it comes to this particular scene in the trailer - you can see that look on her face, there's something distant and mysterious in her eyes, like she recalls something from her past. I can see pity and concern there, a mutual understanding. I don't see any kind of erotic fascination at all when it comes to Galadriel. She always seems so distant and it should be left like that.

But these posts are telling to me -- if it was mutually agreed upon that this gesture is one of simple friendship and concern, why is this such a topic across the web?

I have no idea. I guess some people like to see romantic nuances in every movie - that would explain the amount of wild fanfictions going on after LOTR movies. Too bad that this also has an impact on filmmakers - they need both male and female characters, because people are expecting the sexual tension in the movies - PT for example had to put a female Elvish character (Tauriel if I remember correctly) into the story.

 

But these posts are telling to me -- if it was mutually agreed upon that this gesture is one of simple friendship and concern, why is this such a topic across the web?

My guess would be that you never know what PJ desides to do to the story, so one might as well expect  the worst. It is an out of character thing for Galadriel to do. 

Me neither, but that doesn't mean Galadriel couldn't see Maia spirit in Gandalf, and I guess that would justify the look she gave him.

 

It's not the look so much as the hair fiddling (or the combination). Enough people view this as a notably intimate gesture, if not romantic, and the fact that Gandalf is of a high order could arguably work against the opinion that it is appropriate between these characters in this setting.

 

Galin wrote: But these posts are telling to me -- if it was mutually agreed upon that this gesture is one of simple friendship and concern, why is this such a topic across the web?

Indis wrote: I have no idea. I guess some people like to see romantic nuances in every movie - that would explain the amount of wild fanfictions going on after LOTR movies. Too bad that this also has an impact on filmmakers - they need both male and female characters, because people are expecting the sexual tension in the movies - PT for example had to put a female Elvish character (Tauriel if I remember correctly) into the story.

 

Well I would make a bit of a distinction here: in general I think the gesture itself easily enough raises the idea of romance. No? I mean it's not like Jackson has filmed a fairly benign touch on the shoulder and people are looking for romantic nuances in that. 

Granted, that doesn't mean that this gesture is only reflective of romance, but on the other hand again, I don't think Peter Jackson can fairly say something as simple as: 'hey folks, stop looking for stuff that isn't there' -- after he knowingly employs a gesture often enough associated with romance!   

 

 

And to restate the other part of my question: why are some people taking details that don't necessarily speak to friendship and paint them as representing a 'special' friendship between these characters specifically? 

I mean why should some feel the need to assert that Gandalf wrote a song about Galadriel for example, or that they must have known each other in Valinor (without providing any textual evidence of this), or claim that the simple fact of Gwaehir bearing Gandalf to Lorien is Tolkien showing a special friendship between these characters?

   Perhaps the people posting them don't see them as 'reaching too far GG

It's not the look so much as the hair fiddling (or the combination). Enough people view this as a notably intimate gesture, if not romantic, and the fact that Gandalf is of a high order could arguably work against the opinion that it is appropriate between these characters in this setting.

I'm not saying that it is wrong that somebody will see the scene as romantic. But I just don't see it there, Galin. Maybe that's because I don't see the gesture as only romantic - I do the same for my family members or friends sometimes, it is a sign of care for me. And looking at Galadriel and Gandalf - yes, I see a man and a woman, but it doesn't trigger "love is in the air" melody in my mind at all. Galadriel did it a couple of times before, she kissed Frodo, and she even touched Aragorn's face with care (as far as I remember in ROTK EE). And it didn't suggest anything but care in my eyes.

Yes - I agree with you that with Gandalf it is a bit different - because he is Maia -  "of high order" as you said. And that's why I can see that this gesture could be left out, it wasn't necessary. But if it's in the movie - I'm still okay with it. I agree with what Brego said about it. Why Peter Jackson included it? Well, I'm curious too, I'd like to know the answer. I have a feeling that he wanted to play with minds of some viewers, and he succeed.

I don't see the gesture as only romantic either, as I noted already, nor do I think Jackson is going to make this a romantic scene, but I do see this gesture as notably intimate, as I say (again, if not romantic; meaning if it's not romantic, which it can be, I still see it as notably intimate). 

I do the same for my family members...

 

Good example: a familial intimacy is one context (in general anyway) where this gesture can be hopefully mutually agreed upon as appropriate and not romantic.

 

 ... or friends sometimes, it is a sign of care for me.

 

But do people do this with friends of the opposite sex -- 'regular' friends? Or is it reserved for only very close friends, someone who seems so close he is like a brother or sister, so that it will not be misinterpreted as romantic.

All of the misinterpretation (let's give PJ the benefit of the doubt here) could've been easily avoided by just letting Galadriel put a hand on Gandalf's shoulder or arm.

But I get the feeling PJ included this scene in the trailer just to start controversy.

Gosh I touch my friend all the time without them feeling creeped out or feeling that it's anyway sexual. Can't see what all the fuss is about... Obviously Galadriel was in on all White Council politics and would have been heavily involved in its plans and actions. Next we'll be complaining that PJ's Elves are telepathic. Are we also forgetting that it was Galadriel who dressed Gandalf in White after his return to Callas Galadhon after battling the Balrog and don't forget friends he was naked!

But do people do this with friends of the opposite sex -- 'regular' friends? Or is it reserved for only very close friends, someone who seems so close he is like a brother or sister, so that it will not be misinterpreted as romantic.

I can only speak from my perspective - yes, I did that few times with my male friends. And by friends I mean friends - not acquaintances. And even if we'll presume that Gandalf and Galadriel didn't have the chance to became friends, I still see them having a deep connection considering that they share the same goals at this moment, the same concerns, the same knowledge.

But I get the feeling PJ included this scene in the trailer just to start controversy.

Exactly. And seeing your post I'll snatch the opportunity to tell you that I love your posts! (in various threads I read on PT). And your avatar! 

Virumor wrote: All of the misinterpretation (let's give PJ the benefit of the doubt here) could've been easily avoided by just letting Galadriel put a hand on Gandalf's shoulder or arm.

Even this isn't necessary but it would have at least avoided a number of ways in which readers have already protested this gesture, including how it impacts the view of Gandalf even if not romantic.

But I get the feeling PJ included this scene in the trailer just to start controversy. 

If so... well this probably doesn't need comment really.    

 

Brego wrote: Gosh I touch my friend all the time without them feeling creeped out or feeling that it's anyway sexual.

 

To my mind this is essentially irrelevant here Brego, since it's very generally worded.

Can't see what all the fuss is about... Obviously Galadriel was in on all White Council politics and would have been heavily involved in its plans and actions.

 

 

You think being on the White Council should lead to Galadriel fiddling with Gandalf's hair?

Next we'll be complaining that PJ's Elves are telepathic.

 

And doing so would be complaining about something Tolkien himself actually wrote, which is not the case here in any event. Of course I can easily imagine Jackson overdoing something that Tolkien actually wrote, as well.

 

Are we also forgetting that it was Galadriel who dressed Gandalf in White after his return to Callas Galadhon after battling the Balrog and don't forget friends he was naked! 

 

If we have forgotten, can you refresh our memories? That is, where is it stated that Gandalf flew directly to Galadriel herself and was clothed in white on the spot -- thus still naked and clothed by her specifically? I recall this much at the moment.

'Thus it was that I came to Caras Galadhon and found you but lately gone. I tarried there in the ageless time of that land where days bring healing not decay. Healing I found, and I was clothed in white.'

 

 

And even if Galadriel had seen Gandalf naked, why exactly should we be reminded of it here (and chronologically, seeing Gandalf naked would have occurred after the scene in question incidentally, unless it is some sort of flash to the future)? 

If I find a naked woman on the street who has fled a house on fire, and I give her my coat and help bandage a wound for example... obviously in no way should that mean that, at some later point in time, if we should meet again at a town hall meeting (or what have you), I should be fiddling with her hair in this manner during a discussion.

 

Even if we were friends before the fire, me seeing her naked obviously would not automatically make such a gesture appropriate in this scenario.

I can only speak from my perspective - yes, I did that few times with my male friends. And by friends I mean friends - not acquaintances.

 

Well I'm guessing neither of us want to split hairs over what each of us means by 'acquaintance, friend, close friend, or very close (almost familial) friend' for examples -- but just the notion that this gesture might not be mutually agreed upon as appropriate between 'friends of a given level' -- I think that alone should have warned Jackson away from this idea.

And again, why connect Gandalf and Galadriel in a special way among the enemies of Sauron? Case in point...

And even if we'll presume that Gandalf and Galadriel didn't have the chance to became friends, I still see them having a deep connection considering that they share the same goals at this moment, the same concerns, the same knowledge. 

 

I note that even if they weren't friends in theory, you still see these characters as having a 'deep connection', but if these reasons are true enough in general, couldn't you say the same thing about Gandalf and the Wise?

For all we know, as far as friendships go anyway, Gandalf could have been closer to Celebrian than to Galadriel for example; but in any case, Gandalf the Grey Pilgrim wandered about and likely befriended various peoples in various measures, or at least worked in conjunction with some (whether he liked them or not) who would work against the designs of Sauron.

Tolkien noted that there was much love between Galadriel and Melian (this phrase was used to describe the relationship between Celeborn and Galadriel in the 1977 Silmarillion however), so it's not like JRRT never points out a seemingly notable relationship, and fairly directly if brief enough, when he imagines it existed.

I don't know how JRRT would have directly characterized the relationship between Gandalf and Galadriel, but in any event, I don't see why Peter Jackson needed to inject his fan fiction here, especially given the possible influence it might have upon future readers who might see the films first.

 

And just as a rather silly hypothetical: were I director of the Narn Galadriel for instance, even still I would have the Maia Melian fix Galadriel's tresses before the other way round.

My point Galin is that there are many instances Where Gandalf and Galadriel had unwitnessed contact. The White Council is only 1 example of contact and friendship. Also the Wise could speak without words and seemed to have telepathic ability so didn't necessarily need to be in each others company to converse. Obviously this would mean that the Wise would be incredibly close. Re Gandalf being Naked, does he not describe returning from death naked? Didn't Galadriel send Gwaihir to look for Gandalf? Didn't Gwaihir take him to Loth Lorien from Celedbil after his battle with the Balrog? I only bought this up as another example of their friendship and familiarity. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I've never actually posted on any thread about the movies, but I thought maybe now would be a good time. I've actually had time to sit and read most of the posts in here (not all mind you) and I though maybe I should add my two cents (I am a Digital Media major in college at the moment).

Personally, I view the books and movie as two separate things in total. You can look back at any book to movie franchises and throughout history and you'll note that the two forms of "entertainment" have always had some differences, some larger or smaller than others and here are some of the reasons for that:

Obviously you need to take into account personal ideas that we all have as readers of any book. An example would be that I would never imagine everyone of Tolkien's characters exactly the same as anyone else who reads them. Now, I might get some things the same, but never can I get everything, and the same thing goes with Jackson. He was brought on to make the movies in mostly his imagination, so we will all have differences between his view of the books and ours as a person.

Secondly, movies are a financially industry. So at its core, it comes down to; you can't make money, then you cant make a movie. One thing you must look at in the process of making a movie is that time=money. In the professional world it can take upwards of a day of total work just for 1 minute of video. Adding all that up in any movie brings the cost to staggering costs, and those costs will only et worse from here. That's why movies today are costing hundreds of thousands of dollars (US currency) and the bigger franchises costing in the billions. So as a producer or the head of a major film company such as Warner Bros. or Lionsgate, I'm looking at ways to cut those costs, and the easiest way to cut costs is make a movie "as absolutely short as we feel necessary". That's why when you look at the history of the LotR films, you can see why Jackson had such a hard time even getting a company to sponsor the films. They thought it was going to take too much money to even make one of the movies. Which is why he was so surprised that New Line was willing to sponsor him, but they were to say "well.....there's three books, so there should be three movies, right?" (Jackson had an original script for both one and two films. Cannot remember which he used as his toss to New Line, sorry)

Lastly, for now at least, you need to look at ways directors and producers draw in an audience. When it comes to book to movies/television they understand that the biggest part of their audience will be people who have read the books. When the American TV show The Walking Dead (I don't know how many countries have picked up the show, so I'll just leave it at North American to be safe) was in pre-production they brought in the writer of the original comic to be a huge part of the process. One of the first things he and the director agreed on was that it was not going to be a page-for-page representation of the comic. They wanted to people who have read the comics to be able to watch it and still not be 100% sure of everything that was going on, they were using this a major selling point to the audience. Personally, I can say I probably wouldn't go see a movie if it were word for word to the book.

To me, I see the books and movies (in any franchise, not just this one) as two separate entities to be enjoyed in their own right. I like and understand that the books and movies are different from each other, its that much more time you can spend in Tolkien's world without retreading on one path. But as I said, this is just my personal opinion.

 

This is hands-down the longest post I have ever written on this site.....It feels weird

Totally agree Gimli and I love The Walking Dead. Not shown in Australia but watched it on download. A warning other PT friends it's not for the faint hearted. Lol And Gimli congrats on your huge post.

Brego wrote: My point Galin is that there are many instances Where Gandalf and Galadriel had unwitnessed contact. The White Council is only 1 example of contact and friendship.

 

 

The White Council is an example of some of the Wise getting together to counter the designs of the East or Sauron. Yet since the trailer it seems that these relatively rare meetings of a group of beings working to counter the designs of the East have turned into Gandalf-and-Galadriel-specific illustrations of a 'special' relationship.

 

Also the Wise could speak without words and seemed to have telepathic ability so didn't necessarily need to be in each others company to converse.

 

And you know Gandalf was especially in contact with Galadriel in this manner before Smaug was killed?

Obviously this would mean that the Wise would be incredibly close.

 

There it is again: 'incredibly close' -- which seems to imply that you think two people would need to be incredibly close in order for this gesture to be appropriate. Hmm.

And now all the Wise, being all incredibly close with each other, can fiddle with each other's hair?

 

Re Gandalf being Naked, does he not describe returning from death naked? Didn't Galadriel send Gwaihir to look for Gandalf? Didn't Gwaihir take him to Loth Lorien from Celedbil after his battle with the Balrog? I only bought this up as another example of their friendship and familiarity. Please correct me if I'm wrong. 

It's another example of someone making assumptions about 'friendship and familiarity' based on details that need have nothing to do with friendship, much less an 'incredibly close' one. Gandalf is important to the defense of the West, and Lorien is an obvious enough choice to heal and receive counsel. As Gandalf himself says, he:

 

'... tarried there in the ageless time of that land where days bring healing not decay. Healing I found, and I was clothed in white. Counsel I gave and cousel I took.'

I wish Gandalf would stop blathering here and tell us the real reason why he went to Lorien -- obviously his incredibly close friendship with Galadriel, as Tolkien had already noted in The Hobbit!

 

And I note you provided no evidence yet for your: 'Are we also forgetting that it was Galadriel who dressed Gandalf in White after his return...' Again I don't recall any evidence that Gandalf flew directly to Galadriel and that she was awaiting him with his white robes at that moment, as you are seemingly trying to suggest...

 

... which again, would take place after the events in The Hobbit, if you are trying to further imply that this made them especially close, for example.  

I don't understand what you are stating Galin. You are assuming that PJ is stating something from a 5 second peice of film from a teaser trailer. Im sure there will be more of the Wise involved in the film. After all Saruman and Elrond will be involved. Also I'm not assuming anything, as what I've stated is actually written in the books and appendices. Re telepathic knowledge between Gandalf and Galadriel, are you assuming that they only used this skill at the verg end of the third age in many partings? Somehow I doubt very much that they would have used this power only after the downfall of the Dark Lord.

I don't understand what you are stating Galin. You are assuming that PJ is stating something from a 5 second peice of film from a teaser trailer. Im sure there will be more of the Wise involved in the film. After all Saruman and Elrond will be involved.

 

Well, neither am I sure why you think telling me that there will be more of the Wise in the film makes any difference with respect to what I posted above.

Also I'm not assuming anything, as what I've stated is actually written in the books and appendices. Re telepathic knowledge between Gandalf and Galadriel, are you assuming that they only used this skill at the verg end of the third age in many partings? Somehow I doubt very much that they would have used this power only after the downfall of the Dark Lord. 

 

You seem to make no distinction between the mere fact of osanwe existing, and the incredibly close relationship you appear to claim is the result of this unknown entity (who among the Wise used it with whom, if so, or what they communicated about if so, or how many times if so...).

I've no problem with characterizing Galadriel and Gandalf as 'friends' in general, it's just the measure Jackson has, in my opinion, decided to inject with his fan fiction here (and that he felt it necessary to inject this as well)... including some of the claims on the web now too: that these characters are necessarily incredibly close, or have a notably special friendship, or that Gandalf wrote a song for Galadriel and so on -- all in seeming support of Jackson's movie moment. Back to osanwe...

 

Moreover it is noted that language is the better form of communication among incarnates, as well as generally noted that the Incarnate tended more and more to reserve this practice, to use it only in great need and urgency. As this was written after The Lord of the Rings was published, to my mind it implies the description in Many Partings was somewhat unusual (and employing it at night, when others are sleeping, seems somewhat notable too).

'Lastly, tengwesta has also become an impediment. It is in incarnates clearer and more precise than their direct reception of thought. By it also they can communicate easily with others, when no strength is added to their thoughts: as, for example, when strangers first meet. And, as we have seen, the use of language soon becomes habitual, so that the practice of osanwe (interchange of thought) is neglected and becomes more difficult. Thus we see that the Incarnate tend more and more to use or to endeavour to use osanwe only in great need and urgency, and especially when lambe is unavailing.'

 

JRRT, Osanwe-centa, Vinyar Tengwar

 

And you asserted that it would be obvious that all the Wise are 'incredibly close' due to osanwe, with the further implication of incredibly close friends in my opinion, given the matter under discussion here.

 

So I guess you would have no great problem if Galadriel were fiddling with Radagast's locks in Rivendell as well?

I doubt she will be fiddling much with Radagast's hair, appearently there are birds living there. Thank you, PJ! 

LOL Amarie, good point!

 

Gimli_man43 wrote: Personally, I view the books and movie as two separate things in total.

 

 

Hmm, but I'm guessing this doesn't mean that you don't care about the films being faithful to the books.

(...) One of the first things he and the director agreed on was that it was not going to be a page-for-page representation of the comic. They wanted to people who have read the comics to be able to watch it and still not be 100% sure of everything that was going on, they were using this a major selling point to the audience. Personally, I can say I probably wouldn't go see a movie if it were word for word to the book.

 

Is this just an example? or do you mean that Jackson also had to make certain deviations from the book so as to sell the project to studios (and thus ultimately followed this approach)?

To me, I see the books and movies (in any franchise, not just this one) as two separate entities to be enjoyed in their own right. I like and understand that the books and movies are different from each other, its that much more time you can spend in Tolkien's world without retreading on one path. But as I said, this is just my personal opinion.

 

OK, but again, so far I doubt you are suggesting that as long as things resemble Middle-earth in some way or measure, then whatever Jackson (or anyone) might choose to do would have been all right with you. And I realize 'anything' some filmmaker might chose to do is a rather huge, yawning door to open! but then again if something is truly separate one could approach things this way. 

For example I don't happen to care if the film Lawrence of Arabia is faithful to any source, or even real life.

To put it another way, do you really take the stance, going in, that the films are just an alternate way to spend time in Middle-earth, no matter that it might be with Peter Jackson's version of characters and story? Even potentially including (given how I see these films in general) Jackson's conception of nobility, or his focus on violence, or his version of humour... for a few examples anyway.

 

In any case you're not the first separatizer I've met on the web 

Nope..... Read and re read your posts Galin and still don't know what your point is, sorry. No matter how many quotes, letters, quotes from members or HOME references you refer to, you simply can't tell me that JRRR didn't want us to think that the members of The White Council and other ancient Maia and Imortals were not close in friendship or fellowship. The reaction of Galadriel's people singing in heartbroken lament to Mithradir after his fall into shadow is yet another example of how respected he was within the ranks of the Elves. Did he become respected and loved by the Elves of Loth Lorien without that of Galadriel and Celeborn? Makes no sense to me at all that Gandalf would not be close in love and friendship.

Nope..... Read and re read your posts Galin and still don't know what your point is, sorry. No matter how many quotes, letters, quotes from members or HOME references you refer to, you simply can't tell me that JRRR didn't want us to think that the members of The White Council and other ancient Maia and Imortals were not close in friendship or fellowship.

 

 

As far as what I am, or am not, telling you (or anyone), I prefer my own words, phrasing, and context; noting also that each of my citations above have a rather specific purpose when read in context.

The reaction of Galadriel's people singing in heartbroken lament to Mithradir after his fall into shadow is yet another example of how respected he was within the ranks of the Elves. Did he become respected and loved by the Elves of Loth Lorien without that of Galadriel and Celeborn? Makes no sense to me at all that Gandalf would not be close in love and friendship.  

Hmm, we seem to be adding to the number of people who are so close to Gandalf they might feel comfortable fiddling with a stray strand of his hair during a conversation in Rivendell.

If I say I am close with someone then to me that implies something beyond regular friendship to begin with -- but agree or disagree, what does it say if one adds the rather strong word 'incredibly' to that? as you Brego have employed earlier.

But I note your wording in this latest post: 'incredibly' is not here modifying 'close' at least, and since 'friendship' has various levels, it's fairly vague. And 'respect' has entered. 

 

Is fiddling with someone's hair a sign of respect?  

As Sam would say Galin " Your Opeless". I simply don't understand the way you think sometimes. What a shame Tolkien didnt simply write every single minute of everyday regarding Middle Earth so that we the reader wouldn't need to use their imagination at all and we would all then have a singular idea of exactly what happened. Oh but wait on, wouldn't that be both boring and go against everything JRRT wrote for.

Brego wrote: As Sam would say Galin " Your Opeless".

Instead of remaining on topic or actually responding to something specific, you resort to needless personal remarks.

I simply don't understand the way you think sometimes. What a shame Tolkien didnt simply write every single minute of everyday regarding Middle Earth so that we the reader wouldn't need to use their imagination at all and we would all then have a singular idea of exactly what happened. Oh but wait on, wouldn't that be both boring and go against everything JRRT wrote for.  

 

 

Well perhaps the 'incredibly close' White Council met to sip tea, hold hands, and write poetry about each other, but all I'm saying is that they probably didn't braid each others' hair until after the War of the Ring. Tolkien wants us to use our imaginations, no doubt; but I just don't think the intimate hair fiddling occurred before Sauron was out of the picture.

 

Hyperbole is all too easy Brego

If you want me to answer that simple question I will. Yes I believe that the members of the White Council were incredibly close. I believe that the Elves and Maia of the White Council could converse with Minds, even over great distance. I believe that these abilities grew and became strong over long years of ever growing power, perhaps aided by the three rings of power. I believe that it was Doom, perhaps aided by The Valar, which drove them to work together in actions long planned. And I believe that this union was broken into by Sauron, via Saruman, which was ultimately thwarted by the power of good. I don't use quotes in my posts Galin because to be honest I rely on my memory and imagination regarding Arda. Anyhow, this is the reason that I don't have a problem with "that scene" because it's exactly how I visualise that great friends, eons old would comfort each other in grave times, with an inescapable Doom. It's a high sign of enlightenment and culture to be tactile with one and other without the risk of sexual tension. I think that's it Galin.

Since the discussion is now sooo complicated, I will just add, that we're not talking about Galadriel and Gandalf only in terms of White Council. They are both ringbearers, and I believe that may explain why we see those two spending some time talking in private.

Brego wrote: I don't use quotes in my posts Galin because to be honest I rely on my memory and imagination regarding Arda.

 

You are free to imagine anything you want obviously (or believe X or Y), but when you suggest something is necessarily supported by Tolkien, by referencing something from the books (if not an actual citation) like the existence of the White Council, the existence of osanwe, or the fact that Gandalf came to Lorien after his death... well that's a different animal anyway. 

Have we now been made aware that something you post might hail from your imagination, or from the memory of some text as opposed to the actual citation?

 

Indis wrote: ‘… I will just add, that we're not talking about Galadriel and Gandalf only in terms of White Council. They are both ringbearers, and I believe that may explain why we see those two spending some time talking in private.’

 

 

For myself I would have no problem with Gandalf and Galadriel simply discussing something in private. I have no great problem (although not that I agree it was necessarily necessary to film The Hobbit with all this extra material) in general with an invented scene here, between these characters.  I have no problem with

 

And me... a so called 'purist'? Or I'm guessing some might try to tag me as such

Yes true Indis. I don't think we know how many selves were members of the high council and of course the number of lower ranked Ves involved in it's various actions. Agreed about the rings of power. And thank you Galin, glad to hear regarding imagination. Which I should add is only used to fill in the gaps. I think for me, the best thing about Tolkien's writing is that he is so expressive about most important things, however he also makes the reader become part of the story by leaving gaps for us to ponder about.

Brego wrote: And thank you Galin, glad to hear regarding imagination. Which I should add is only used to fill in the gaps. 

 

So you would agree that this idea of Galadriel and Gandalf being incredibly close friends (and all the Wise) is from your own imagination and not actually supported by text?

Gosh its like being back in School. No I never said that I didn't mean that my idea that they were incredibly close is not supported by text Galin. I have read enough to believe that they would have been incredibly close. And before you ask me to quote, I'll say that in every reference to the Wise and or its main players there is evidence... It's not spelt out in detail, but it's there. The strongest evidence, for me, is the already mentioned "many partings". The love, beauty, and agelessness in this section drips in friendships untold. Page 963 TLOTR's. I'll start you off....."Here now for seven days they tarried, for the time was at hand for another parting which they were loth to make...... Often long after the Hobbits were wrapped in sleep, they would sit together under stars, recalling the Ages that were gone and all their joys and labours in the world, or hold council, concerning the days to come. ... And so on. Sounds like a very close group of friends to me.

Gosh its like being back in School.

Or like having a discussion on the web

No I never said that I didn't mean that my idea that they were incredibly close is not supported by text Galin. I have read enough to believe that they would have been incredibly close. And before you ask me to quote, I'll say that in every reference to the Wise and or its main players there is evidence... It's not spelt out in detail, but it's there.

 

In every reference to the Wise and/or its main players there is textual evidence of an incredibly close friendship Brego? Really?

To take but three examples at random: ‘But in the Days of Bilbo, and of Frodo his heir, they suddenly became, by no wish of their own, both important and renowned, and troubled the counsels of the Wise and the Great’ (Prologue) ‘If any of the Wise should with this Ring overthrow the Lord of Mordor, using his own arts, he would then set himself on Sauron’s throne, and yet another Dark Lord would appear.‘ (The Council of Elrond) And of the Witch-king it's said: ‘… and hidden from the Wise is the doom that awaits him.’ (The Siege of Gondor).

Actually here I’m going to ask what texts you are referring to, in addition to the one citation you claim provides the strongest evidence.

 

 

‘But Galadriel did not depart from Doriath, and remained long with Melian, for there was much love between them.’

 JRRT, The Grey Annals, section 75, The War of the Jools

That’s a specific reference to a relationship and its measure, but not detailed really.

 

The strongest evidence, for me, is the already mentioned "many partings". The love, beauty, and agelessness in this section drips in friendships untold.

In your quote you skipped the sentence in which the word friends is actually used. But friendship in general is not the issue here anyway, it's rather the level of closeness being asserted.

People are cast together all the time, with some common purposes even as arguably dangerous or as important as that faced by the White Council. That alone doesn’t necessarily make any two people within a given group any more than people who work together -- not to mention the level of friendship that could be characterized as 'incredibly close'... with hair fiddling.

For myself I think it's too simplistic to imagine that all the Wise developed incredibly close relationships, so close that a gesture like this is automatically appropriate and unequivocally a mere sign of concern between friends.

That's not necessarily even a given within families I think, depending upon how close some siblings might be for instance. Wouldn't it be more imaginative here, even generally speaking, to think that some of the Wise were acquaintances who worked together toward a similar goal, some were friends, and some might have even been 'close' friends, or even incredibly close (I'm not sure everyone involved need like each other necessarily, but that aside)?

 

But even if so with respect to this last measure, it would be speculation, or within this discussion quite conveniently specific to assign this relationship to Galadriel and Gandalf. And as measure is the concern here, I note that there is fan fiction 'out there' (which I'm aware of but do not read, noting that I don't read any of it) in which Fingon and Maedhros have an intimate physical relationship.

 

'Long before, in the bliss of Valinor, before Melkor was unchained, or lies came between them, Fingon had been close in friendship with Maedhros;...' Silmarillion

 

And Fingon actually risks his life saving Maedhros. Could one focus on the measure of love it must have taken to attempt such a deed, and claim there is enough in the books to believe that there must be something more going on between these two, and that an interpretation of a physical relationship is 'supported' by text?  

Well someone could claim these things obviously, and one can certainly believe something is true no matter what anyone says (even Tolkien), but to my mind what this really is is textual support for Fingon and Maedhros being close friends...

 

... although each issue has its own specific concerns of course, here the shift from close friend to lover is something that is notable enough between any two people (again, at least in my opinion), and so this is notable enough to warrant actual textual evidence beyond that upon which this fan fiction interpretation is based.

I feel Galin, that I've spoken enough of your question/s. I said that for me the evidence is written within many references within the books and that's my answer. I've given you 1 direct quote and I'm sure other readers already have there minds made up without having to sit through reams of quotes from both of us, direct from the books we love. You are asking me to undo my idea of what Tolkien had in mind regarding the make up and mood of the White Council and put simply I can't. You have your mind set on what you believe is the Truth and no matter what I ( or others ) write is not going to make a difference. I respect your opinion Galin, but cannot agree with you without undoing my long held opinion of the Powers and the Wise.

Brego wrote: I feel Galin, that I've spoken enough of your question/s. I said that for me the evidence is written within many references within the books and that's my answer.

Brego, you said you find every reference to the Wise and/or its members to support the notion of an incredibly close relationship between them -- and I provided but three random references -- concerning which I can't imagine how you find them in support of this claim.

And now (it would appear) you're going to ignore that, and not provide even a single 'second' reference to the Wise.

I've given you 1 direct quote and I'm sure other readers already have there minds made up without having to sit through reams of quotes from both of us, direct from the books we love.

 

Do people mind reading reams of quotes from a book they love? And if they do, they don't have to read them of course. It took no great time to type the three I posted, and even less time to read them; but as you feel you've spoken to enough of my questions I guess there will be no comment as to how the references I've posted provide textual support for incredibly close friendships.

And as far as your one, partially edited quote, it's no wonder to me that you imagine it represents an incredibly close friendship between everyone involved, if you can possibly find the same thing in every reference to the Wise.

You are asking me to undo my idea of what Tolkien had in mind regarding the make up and mood of the White Council and put simply I can't.

Rather I'm asking you to support your claims, noting that I already posted that you are obviously free to simply imagine anything you want.

You have your mind set on what you believe is the Truth and no matter what I (or others) write is not going to make a difference.

 

You can't know I won't change my mind, either greatly or in some measure. That said, I'm not going to necessarily agree with notions that can't be supported by text, or with anything that by your own admission might possibly derive (at least in part) from your own memory of something (as opposed to an actual text from JRRT).

To be honest Galin I think you enjoy bookish argument a little too much, at least for me. Yes I find info regarding the relationships of the Wise in all references. I've answered you questions and can't be bothered arguing any more.

I was wondering about the portrayal of Necromancer in the trailer - I'm curious what do you think about him. I didn't know much about his presence at this point in the history of Middle Earth. We're assuming that it is Sauron during the time he was hiding in Mirkwood and regaining his visible form., right?

Necromancer. Yes, Indis,  he is Sauron. Sauron as he was in Mirkwood when Mirkwood darkened. The same as he was when he was being sought out by the Radagast, Gandalf, and Galadriel and while Saruman was studying up on the ring. Yes, Sauron.

Yes Indis and Wen, Sauron, and I guess we will get to see him in his weakened form in the upcoming movies, slowly gathering strength and all dark and evil creatures too his cause before he flees to Mordor to oversee the completion of his newly rebuilt Barad Dur. Of course his exit from Mirkwood was only to fool the White Council and their folk into thinking that they had expelled the Necromancer and his folk forever from The Great Forest. With the help of The Nazgul, this action was well and long planned.

In his film adaptation of The Lord of the Rings I believe Jackson has someone state (something like): Sauron needs the One to be a physical being again (which if so is incorrect whether purposeful or not), so I wonder what he will do if the Necromancer gets any screen time.

Or perhaps Jackson's Necrodancer turns out to be... Tauriel!

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