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*** SPOILERS BELOW***

(CM Amarië popped by and added spoiler warning.)

 

 

Anyone else here suffering of a super headache when thinking of the super feminist elve Tauriel? An elven maid, apparently created by PJ (or whoever had that idea) to give the movies a romantic and feminist background. Do I sound angry? Yes! I think the story is perfect the way it is in the books and I don't see the need for a female character and above all one that Kili falls for! Why in Eru's name do we need a female elve as love interest for one of the dwarves?!? And worse: according to several internet rumours Kili dies defending not his uncle Thorin but this Tauriel. Oh Elbereth! Tauriel is described as being apparently the super feminist elve: she is not just any elve, no she is the leader of the elven guard! Yeah...right. And she can wield any weapon! Yeah...sure...*face palm*. Sounds like the elven super woman to me. Maybe she should have been in the Avengers instead of the Hobbit... *sighs*. So, what do you peeps think?

Wow, spoiler alert!!! Might want to edit your post and add that at the top...even if they are just rumors.

I have a strong life philosophy to never judge anything until I know for myself. So I don't feel strongly either way at this point. Having said that, it does seem unnecessary and just an attempt to appeal to a specific demographic, like elves at Helms Deep. However, as ridiculous as it was to the theme, I enjoyed seeing an elven army team up with the likes of men. After all, it is a movie. So since I spent 10 years bracing myself for something like this...it is what it is. A book to film adaptation, and films require a romantic interest.

To me she seems like nothing more than a female Legolas, so I wouldn't say she's going to be all super powered out. I was able to get over Azog being alive, so we'll see.

Kili is the movies sex symbol... handsome dwarf must have love interest.  Apparently, that is the logic they go for.  I was fine with a main guard, one that at least communicates more with the dwarves;  but one that falls for the one?  No.  They've gone wayyy to far already, and if what you say is true- about Kili defending Tauriel instead of Thorin- then someone needs to seriously complain.  They're heading into cheesy, fangirl territory here... 

Ok so we know she's an Elf and she's female. Calm down people, we haven't even seen an image of her yet and your already angry. Lets wait till the movie has shown at least. God forbid PJ may even put more females in the next films! Also wasn't there a warrior woman in TTT? Her name was Eowyn. I see nothing wrong with PJ adding a few characters, especially strong women.

 

It seems like PJ is trying to make up for all the things he had to leave out of the LORT. Too much is never enough when it comes to Tolkien and I love all the movies. But now that he has the power he is being vary indulgent. The Hobbit could have been just as good without changing the story as much.  

I definitely agree with you Ainu. Just like LOTR, I'm not sure why he made certain unnecessary changes, if not for the sake of making it more Hollywood.

But, I still love them. To be completely honest, I just like seeing and hearing about Middle Earth more than the actual story. In the books of course the story is essential, but as a movie I just like to see Ents battling in Isenguard or dwarves mining in their cities or trolls storming the gates of Gondor....

So a female character is just to add to the movie experience. As long as it doesn't turn into a Twilight, I'll enjoy watching it. After all they added a lot to Aragorn/Arwen's romance in LOTR. And I'd say their plot line is one of the most remembered about the series by casual watchers. Probably purists too but for opposite reasons :p

The back story of Arwen and Aragon was mined from the Apendices of TLOTR and other than the fact that Arwen replaced Glorfindel in rescuing Frodo PJ basically kept to the actual story. I loved the scenes between them, even the dream sequences and or telepathic meetings. Beautifully done.

I'm imagining that the crush on Tauriel by one of the Dwarves ( I heard it was Thorin ) won't be returned and lets face it its not the first time a Dwarf has fallen for an Elf. Sounds like fun. Looking forward to it.

I hear a new teaser is not far off! And that there may be additional White Council action between Radagast and Galadriel and also Radagast and Tree Beard! John Reece Davies (Gimli and the voice of Tree Beard) hinted last year that there may be involvement so perhaps Tree Beard makes an appearance, flashback maybe.....

 

I definitely love all that stuff the use of the appendixes and the way he altered the story to fit a time line I wish the LOTR had been 6 movies and included the war of the north and so on. I have read and heard that Tolkien wanted other people to continue developing his world but I have never found any books on Tolkien Legendarium by other author’s do these exist and or do the keepers of the Tolkien legacy want them to exist? 

Maybe a platonic love? Like Gimli with Galadriel?

About Tauriel, love interest or non, I trust in PJ's prowess!

I remember the first time I saw dwarves images: i thought "Damn, what's this?". And then, on 13th December, I fell in love with every single character!

 

I'm sorry for my English, I'm a foreign dunce ^^'

Hmm, I'm not a fan of this idea - basically because there wasn't any Tauriel in the book Wink Smilie I get the vibe that filmmakers were worried about lack of female characters in the story. I understand that, and I just hope they won't copy Gimli's crush on Galadriel from Fellowship of The Ring.

By the way - wouldn't Galadriel be the best feminist elf in the Middle Earth realm?

In more ways than one Indis.

You say "the Middle Earth realm," so I'd say Eowyn would be the "best." If you're talking about The Hobbit time period, then I suppose Galadriel would be the "best" choice. But considering we only have like....3 to choose from, I'd say they are all pretty even as they all represent different aspects of feminine power. sad

i do find it annoying since i  read the book and i don't want hem to change anything.  however, I'm willing to suspend condemnation and be open minded t ow they do the film.  I wish they would realize that a good story can stand on its own without a love story pasted on.

i have had a rather interesting conversation with Harry Potter fans a few days ago about the comparison of Tolkien's world vs. Rowling's world and the lack of female characters was the most named "lack" about Tolkien's books and consequently the movies.

But i don't see it as lack. After all it is a story about a group of people on a quest to take on a dragon. What man in their right mind would invite their wife or girlfriend or sister to come along??

i think it's a question of logic that there are no women on this quest. And i do not find that to be a problem or lack in the story at all.

 

On a side note: Tauriel can't have Thorin -> he's already mine, hehehehe.

So I maybe 3 days ago I started binge watching Lost on Netflix. It wasn't until the 3rd or 4th episode in that I realized one of the main female characters is, in fact, Evangeline Lilly. So I am now infinitely more optimistic about Tauriel, since I completely and honestly admit thinking maybe 2 episodes in "wow, she looks kind of like an elf. She would've made a good Tauriel." Lol. I visited IMDB soon after and the irony almost killed me...

So, as atrocious as her addition to the canon may or may not be, at least I know it's going to be a worthy actress who I swear to God looks like an elf at most angles. Even without prosthetics, when her hair is tucked behind her ears, they're just sort of naturally pointy. If you haven't already watch an episode of Lost sometime, you'll see what I mean!!

Oh, and Brego, we'll have to have a discussion soon when I'm finished re-reading the LOTR!!  Cause I'm a little cloudy on the specifics, but I know for a fact PJ made some pretty lenient changes with Aragorn/Arwen and their romance (beyond replacing Glorfindel with Arwen, which does count!), while also changing Aragorn's story to make their story seem more dramatic (ie falling off the cliff, losing the keepsake, painstaking journey back, smile when getting the keepsake back, romance ensues). I'm not completely opposed to it, I just know it was different. Same with Merry/Pippin's story after Orthanc, even with the palantir, I just remember being confused by so many random changes. And as much as I love reading your opinion and hearing your thoughts, I still don't remember Aragorn bluntly denying his heritage in the movies, which I'll rewatch soon too! So I can't comment just yet! But I'm getting there...

You are of course correct re these changes Balrogs. I had forgotten about the jewel which PJ partially invented as a device to physically represent both Arwen's Elviness as well as the connection between her and Aragon. I guess for non readers, it enabled the flash back scenes and the phsycic connection scenes to make more scence. What I meant in saying there weren't so many changes was that there is a strong connection and a history there between them which wasn't just a love affair. As with both their ancient ancestors, Beren and Luthien, there is a huge amount of fate, doom and history involved which is almost impossible to cram into the film.

Ah, well of course! Anyone who thinks it was just a love affair clearly didn't read the books! It's a main theme after all...

Yes along with Beren and Luthien possibly the greatest love story in ME. To think that Estel (Aragorn) was only a child the first time Arwen saw him. It brings home the difficulties faced by an Elf and Human relationship. I love the line in the film regarding the ageing of Aragorn, that his cares had weighed on his looks. Within a blink of an eye for an Elf the heir of Isildur had aged beyond her own beauty. She still loved him, and gave up her grace for him. Truly the greatest sacrifice in TLOTR.

Agreed Brego, that part made me cry.  I loved and hated it.  Arwen's love for Aragorn was imperishable. 

 

Now Lillia I definatly agree with you; there is no "lack" of female parts in LORT.  I mean really, do we have to have some girl for every guy in every fiction book? Do we really need a warier woman in every fairy tale?  Sometimes it's better to show the soft comforting side of a female, the calm beauty in a mother.  I think this was done in just the right way in LORT, you know, like Arwen's, Aragorn's, and Ewin's love triangle; and how Ewin went out into battle and killed the king of the Nazcul.  Funny, I had the same conversation with a friend of mine who is a Harry Potter fan, she agued that hobbits are wimps and that the only one worth talking about was Bilbo.  HA what about Sam and Frodo, or Merry and Pippin? Oh well her loss.     

Oh and Lillia we must get together and talk, seeing as we are related and have fan problems. Just and idea.blush

Why do we think Tauriel is feminist? Perhaps all Elves, Male or Female, hold equally as important protective roles. They are enlightened after all. I think it's great.

True true true, well we'll see what happens in this next movie. I can't wait!

In general it appears that Tolkien's nissi [Eldarin women] do not normally fight 'professionally' despite that they can defend themselves at need. At least according to this...

'There are indeed some differences between the natural inclinations of neri and nissi, and other differences that have been established by custom (varying in place and in time, and in the several races of the Eldar). For instance, the arts of healing, and all that touches on the care of the body, are among all the Eldar most practiced by the nissi; whereas it was the elven-men who bore arms at need.'

JRRT, Laws And Customs Among The Eldar, Morgoth's Ring

If Jackson wants a loophole, perhaps he can claim Tauriel is not an Elda.

Got to love those loopholes.

 

Not really a loop hole Galin. This simply states that female Elves are better than Males at the art of healing. I still see no reason that Tauriel, or indeed any female Elf can't be every bit as talented in protective arts as the Men. There are examples of at least felales taking the lead and or doing as they wished in The Sil.

I think Galin was saying theoretically if he wanted a loop hole he could change her story, which at this point we don't know much of. Though I don't think he would in this case, too drastic of an alteration, especially for a new character.

Also I'm trying to think of other examples in the Sil that showcase female elven combat prowess specifically. I know we have Eowyn, but she was of Men, who were overall a more combative race, so different rules may apply.

Otherwise the only female elves I can think of were more attune with the mystical arts, in many cases healing but other powers of force. It does seem like they would defend themselves in times of need, but not so much voluntarily go into combat.

I just found this on thetolkienforums.com, an interesting quote:

"From HoME v. 10, Morgoth's Rings
In all such things, not concerned with the bringing forth of children, the neri and nissi (that is, the men and women) of the Eldar are equal - unless it be in this (as they themselves say) that for the nissi the making of things new is for the most part shown in the forming of their children, so that invention and change is otherwise mostly brought about by the neri. There are, however, no matters which among the Eldar only a ner can think or do, or others with which only a nis is concerned. There are indeed some differences between the natural inclinations of neri and nissi, and other differences that have been established by custom (varying in place and in time, and in the several races of the Eldar). For instance, the arts of healing, and all that touches on the care of the body, are among all the Eldar most practised by the nissi; whereas it was the elven-men who bore arms at need. And the Eldar deemed that the dealing of death, even when lawful or under necessity, diminished the power of healing, and that the virtue of the nissi in this matter was due rather to their abstaining from hunting or war than to any special power that went with their womanhood. Indeed in dire straits or desperate defence, the nissi fought valiantly, and there was less difference in strength and speed between elven-men and elven-women that had not borne child than is seen among mortals. On the other hand many elven-men were great healers and skilled in the lore of living bodies, though such men abstained from hunting, and went not to war until the last need."

Sorry I didn't mean picking up arms in the Sil. However there are examples of strong Elf Women who acted with strength and honour. Ar Feiniel

Aredhel, also called Ar-Feiniel, the White Lady of the Noldor, was the daughter of High King Fingolfin and AnairŽ, sister of Fingon, Turgon, and Argon, and mother of Maeglin. She was tall and strong, fond of hunting and riding in the forests. Her skin was pale and her hair dark; she always wore silver and white. She was fond of the sons of FŽanor, especially Celegorm and Curufin.

Luthien the blesses risked all for her love and her people and is the only Elf to ever change the rules of Mandos and therefore Illuvatar in regards to the resting place of her spirit after her first and second death.

Idril daughter if Turgon saved many of her fathers people from the sac of Gondolin.

This is what I meant and I believe that each of these great Woman could probably have taken up arms if given the chance.

With the return of the Noldor, more than likely there were female elves with Feanor and his host. Once they arrived on shore they burned the ships. So one would assume that all the elves marched into battle.

Forgive me, I haven't read through all the above posts. I was so flummoxed at the first one.

 

Kili falls in love with an elf? That is just wrong. To try to justify it using Gimli's devotion to Galadriel is erronous. Gimli's 'love' for Galadriel was more akin to veneration (reverence) than romantic love. I doubt the Good Professor would approve.

 

I anticipate much outrage if this is the storyline of the latter Hobbit movies.wink

 

 

 

Not really a loop hole Galin. This simply states that female Elves are better than Males at the art of healing.

It states more than that Brego; and actually the reason I posted it was to reveal the last part [as you had posted that: 'Perhaps all Elves, Male or Female, hold equally as important protective roles.']. For emphasis my quoted ended with...

'... whereas it was the elven-men who bore arms at need.'

So [and noting the fuller quote now posted by Balrogs] while in dire straits and desperate defense the Elven women could fight valiantly, it was yet the Elven-men who were the professional warriors.

But in Jackson's world [seemingly from what we know so far] Tauriel is not simply a women fighting in desperate defense -- an Elven maid that was put in a dire position and was thus forced to take up arms in defense of herself or others -- but it appears [at least] her very role is that of a warrior...

... and thus, a possible 'loophole' is that Jackson fans [or Jackson himself] can claim that the description from JRRT was a tradition of the Eldar specifically, while also suggesting that Tauriel was not one of the Eldar.

Quote:
... and thus, a possible 'loophole' is that Jackson fans [or Jackson himself] can claim that the description from JRRT was a tradition of the Eldar specifically, while also suggesting that Tauriel was not one of the Eldar.

So I pretty much agreed until this last paragraph which I'm just a little confused about.  But I must have missed something because I don't fully understand how Jackson would be suggesting Tauriel was not an Eldar?

Disagreed Galin. Your quotes are vague and contain multiple meaning which can be taken many ways depending on the reader. This is what makes Tolkien's writing great.

Allysa these are only rumours. Perhaps Thorin is simply taken by Tauriels beauty and or humility. We won't know until the movie/s are released.

Balrogs wrote: So I pretty much agreed until this last paragraph which I'm just a little confused about. But I must have missed something because I don't fully understand how Jackson would be suggesting Tauriel was not an Eldar?

Thanks Balrogs. The loophole part is a bit of a hypothetical scenario, but all I mean is that Jackson or his fans could claim that Tauriel was a non-Eldarin elf -- in conjunction with claiming that Tolkien's description in Morgoth's Ring refers more specifically to Eldarin Elves, and so doesn't necessarily apply to Tauriel in any case.

I'm not sure anyone is ever going to ask Peter Jackson specifically about any quotes from Morgoth's Ring, so I guess it's more of a possible loophole for conversations on boards like these.

Brego wrote: Disagreed Galin. Your quotes are vague and contain multiple meaning which can be taken many ways depending on the reader. This is what makes Tolkien's writing great.

This quote reveals [in part] that Elven-men are the soldiers while Elven-women are the healers -- excepting certain Neri who are also skilled healers -- those Neri who [notably] do not hunt or do not go to war if possible. Balrogs seems to agree, and I have seen this much posted all over the web in various forums.

Do you have a variant interpretation with respect to these points specifically?

Anyway, even Wikipedia [currently] gets this much correct! See the 'Daily Life' section of Tolkien's Quendi... well, before someone changes it!

I understand where Brego is coming from. It sounds like the quote is generalizing. The majority of elf "society" may be that way, elf-men goes to war and elf-women are the healers, but not every elf is like that. A good example would be Galadrial. As I recall she was the one who broke down the walls of dol guldor and helped fortified/defense preparation of Lothlorien.
Exactly Glorfindal. I would think that even the average Elf Maiden would have power, knowledge and skill far beyond that of a Mortal female. I'm not saying they have superpowers or anything so silly. Simply they with the advent of years would accrue the knowledge and skill to allow them to slip into fight mode, when needed, or wanted. In my mind Elves don't have the same sexisist ideals that we do. I think a female Elf would do whatever they wanted, despite there Lords.

Glorfindel wrote: I understand where Brego is coming from. It sounds like the quote is generalizing.

Then why should Brego say that he disagrees with what I wrote based on the citation? Or that the quote is vague and contains 'multiple' meanings? Here you appear to agree with the description, but add that maybe it doesn't hold for every single Elf.

That's another possible 'loophole' argument, but in any case the problem for Peter Jackson and his fans would remain if the film itself did not note Tauriel as an exception to the norm. Implying [even silently] that the exception is the norm still goes against the 'lore' of Middle-earth...

... a good example is the fan fiction of many Elves wedding mortals in Middle-earth. In Tolkien's world a few did, yes, but these are the exceptions not the rule, and to silently imply otherwise in a film still steps on Tolkien's world in my opinion. 

I guessed that the 'exception' argument was coming [from someone], even though Tolkien himself doesn't note any exceptions to the rule as far as warfare goes [at least here], yet he does as far as healing goes. But if Jackson or his fans want to play this card it still has to remain an exception.

I'm not sure Peter Jackson cares that much here in any event. I think it's probably a case of: Hollywood wants a female Elven warrior, so invent one, whether it's so in Middle-earth or not.

The majority of elf "society" may be that way, elf-men goes to war and elf-women are the healers, but not every elf is like that. A good example would be Galadrial. As I recall she was the one who broke down the walls of dol guldor and helped fortified/defense preparation of Lothlorien.

In my opinion that's not a good example actually, as Galadriel throwing down the walls of Dol Guldur after the destruction of the One, and after her realm had been assailed three times, is hardly the same as her taking up a sword or bow to fight on the line when Lorien was first assailed.

A better example might be her defense of Swan-haven, but that could [in my opinion] be the perfect example of what Tolkien notes here in Morgoth's Ring: 'Indeed in dire straits or desperate defence...'

In any case Galadriel was not 'Captain of the Guard' or similar, for example. 

Brego wrote: Exactly Glorfindal. I would think that even the average Elf Maiden would have power, knowledge and skill far beyond that of a Mortal female.

Not really the issue here Brego. Luthien was not the leader of Beleg's warriors despite that she had all these things far beyond that of mortal females.

Simply they with the advent of years would accrue the knowledge and skill to allow them to slip into fight mode, when needed, or wanted.

In the quote Balrogs raised and from which I noted specific points -- keeping in mind that you said that you disagreed with me -- JRR Tolkien says that Elf-women could fight when needed: 'Indeed in dire straits or desperate defence, the nissi fought valiantly...' a point which I acknowledged early on when I wrote [and here with more emphasis]:

'_In general_ it appears that Tolkien's nissi [Eldarin women] do not normally fight 'professionally' despite that they can _defend themselves at need. _'

If Tauriel merely slips into fight mode, due to some scenario that leaves her little choice, then to my mind she would fit well enough with this description from Morgoth's Ring.

In my mind Elves don't have the same sexisist ideals that we do. I think a female Elf would do whatever they wanted, despite there Lords.

Yet Tolkien notes that there were differences between neri and nissi, both by natural inclination and established by custom, and immediately and specifically refers to healing versus the taking of life [hunting and war] as an example of one such difference.

Where is the loophole? Galadriel marched with Celeborn and the army of Lorien to dol guldur. Where is the defense in that? The enemy had lost and fled back to their realm, the elvish army made an offense strike and attacked dol guldur. You said that Galadriel was not captain of the guard. So are you saying that only captains of an army is considered as warriors?

Where is the loophole? Galadriel marched with Celeborn and the army of Lorien to dol guldur. Where is the defense in that?

I posted about Galadriel's valiant defense at Swanhaven (Alqualonde) in the First Age.

And the second loophole argument has to do with Jackson fans claiming [any that want to that is] that Tauriel can be an exception to the description in Morgoth's Ring.

The enemy had lost and fled back to their realm, the elvish army made an offense strike and attacked dol guldur. You said that Galadriel was not captain of the guard. So are you saying that only captains of an army is considered as warriors?

No, Galadriel was neither captain of the guard nor a warrior by duty or 'trade'. I used captain in consideration of a comparison to Jackson's invented Tauriel.

That Galadriel had some sort of power to destroy the walls of Dol Guldur does not make her a professional warrior. And if Tauriel is [as has been written about her] 'head of the Elven guard', which seems like a martial position to me, her very role in the community,...

... then you need an example of that kind of 'exception' in Tolkien's work.

There is no loophole when it comes to your quote.

Glorfindel, I'm not really championing any of these loophole ideas myself, I'm just anticipating what some film fans might claim are [essentially] loopholes -- in other words, ways to try to explain Tauriel in light of Tolkien's description in Morgoth's Ring.

Well, after reading over these posts, it seems like it was both.

Every society has some sort of "path" for their gender. It's in our evolution. Men are hunters women are gatherers. However, obviously some men would gather and some women could fight.

Look at the differences between female and male Vala, and what talents they are known for. I think as time went on, women just ended up on a path of healers and men were warriors. But I don't think there's any denying an elven maiden could shoot a bow and swing a sword. And of course Elrond is reknown for his healing talents. These folks lived for hundreds, if not thousands of years. For a female a lot of that time was spent on the healing arts, but I'm sure there was plenty of time to learn the art of battle.

So, to me, it seems women were indeed healers, and men were in fact warriors. But, if not all, then at least a few maidens would learn the art of battle, and vice versa. But of course they'll probably never be quite as good as their gender counterpart. I think Jackson trying to claim Tauriel isn't an Eldar is pushing it a little far, because sadly I agree he, or his team, didn't even look into it that far. I appreciate the way he captures Middle Earth and love his adaptations, but I'm not going to deny certain unnecessary changes that, in some cases, counteract or just replace Tolkien's intentions.

Also I always interpreted Galadriel's reknown strength in battle as more...sorceress like, and less sword and shield like. So, in my head, that only emphasizes the fact women were more in touch with the...."magical" world. But hey, that's just me, it could be interpreted in several ways.

I am pretty sure about what Valandil said on the Forum of the Desolation of Smaug. People love watching hot women chop up zombies. In Pj'scase. beautiful Elven woman kills fungi orcs. Tauriel could not of been avoided in today's world, due to the people's mind. But if less time would of been spent with Tauriel and kili, then Beorn could of gotten more time.